New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

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knutselmaaster   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by knutselmaaster » Feb 17 2019 2:28pm

In my humble opinion, this motor isn't suitable for cargo bikes or other heavy loads.
It is great stuff and quite well built but (as always) as it is lightweight it isn't very resistant.
Very good for easy conditions and lightweight loads but not for hard work.
Pushing it to its limits will result in deception but if you remain within its limits it will be a great and durable motor.
No for "real mountain biking", cargo bikes, heavy riders without leg muscles, high mountains, etc.
Yes for in the city, race bikes, sportive riders, easy and not to steep climbs, etc

And don't use a nexus 3 with a mid motor, you will destroy it, especially on a cargo bike.

Bartman   10 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Bartman » Feb 17 2019 4:00pm

Retrorockit wrote:
Feb 17 2019 1:30pm

Hi tomtom (& all)

I've read your tutorial, and followed this thread for a while. I'm about to start a 2-wheel cargo build (Bullit-style Longjohn but in steel), and have a few questions. I understand theres quite a few variables concerning which motor to buy, and I have a hard time getting my head around it. I already have a BBS02 48V 750W system on a different cargo bike, so I would like to stay with 48V for compatibility. I'm gunning for an IGH 3 or 7 gears on a 26" rear wheel. I will transport my two kids and myself which adds up to about 120-130 kg atm. The commute is mostly flat with a long slight incline at each end (I would love a nice combination of torque and speed). I'm looking to buy from PSWPowers german stock, as I live in Copenhagen. I'm planning to run the Open Source firmware with the KT-LCD3.


I'm new to this forum and having trouble with the quote tool.
I mentioned the SRAM DDS3-24. But I've become aware of a better option. Sturmey Archer makes an IGH 3 speed that takes 8-9 speed casettes also. Much stronger and probably better parts availability than SRAM.
http://www.sturmey-archer.com/en/produc ... rk3-silver
I’m doing exactly the same. I’ve bought an Xtracycle leap, and a used mountainbike frame from ebay. I have a spare 36v TSDZ2 and will get another ktlcd3. Currently running v16 of the opensource software on my mountain bike and loving it with the experimental high cadence. But it does eat up the battery and I’m thinking about overvolting my cargo bike with a 48v battery. I’ll build the bike with a standard rear cassete and will be ordering a sturmy archer 3 speed hub / cassette and running it with 10 speed 11-42 cassette with the standard dished 42 tongshen chainring.

I’m running my mountainbike with a custom 8 sprocket 10 speed 11-42 cassette and 34t front chainring. I currently tow a trailer to go camping, but will use the cargo bike when built. I may even try a 34t on the front if the extra length of the Xtracycle leap reduces the chainline issue.

tomtom50   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by tomtom50 » Feb 17 2019 5:27pm

Retrorockit wrote:
Feb 17 2019 1:30pm
I mentioned the SRAM DDS3-24. But I've become aware of a better option. Sturmey Archer makes an IGH 3 speed that takes 8-9 speed casettes also. Much stronger and probably better parts availability than SRAM.
http://www.sturmey-archer.com/en/produc ... rk3-silver
These IGH + freewheel systems are interesting. I saw them in the past but now prices are lower and availability seems better.

Spinning Magnets looked at IGH hubs for strength and he thinks some are strong enough to use with a mid-drive and others not so much. (He is talking about 1500W mid-drives, maybe they are all OK for the TSDZ2)
https://www.electricbike.com/mid-drive-kit-igh/

Although they are engineering marvels, I wonder how many people really need the 600% range 3-speed IGH with freehub gives (at least on the road, mountain biking would be different). I'm using a 11-36 cluster with the TSDZ2 42T (327%). The 42/36 first gear has been low enough for any hill and I live in Seattle, and I'm not a particularly strong rider, and I barely ever use the 11T high cog.

Spinning magnets likes the (307%) Nexus/Alfine 8-speed for strength. That hub with a 19T cog seems like a really good match for the TSDZ2. No derailleur!

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Kisazul » Feb 17 2019 10:30pm

Diva wrote:
Feb 17 2019 5:44am
Hi!

I've been riding a tsdz2 for a while now, with the open-source firmware. It works quite good, not as good as my former bosch performance but it works. I burned the 48v motor some times ago, I hope because of some water that could get in the motor (the cover was not totally waterproof because a phase cable was caught between the motor and it). Or because of the heat...
So I ordered a 36V motor and it is really nice when powered at 48V. The freewheel in the metal gear was also stuck so I changed it for a blue one and ordered a new metal one.

Now I have a quite big problem: the motor makes jolts during the first kilometres. Does anyone already encounters such things? It's like he can't give any power, starts, stops, starts again, then after some time it works without any problem. I got it appart twice since then with no result... Any help?

Thanks
Hi. your problem is likely the sensor speed. look at the installation of the magnet on the spokes. install it exactly. distance from the magnet to the sensor must be a little.

kalleg   10 µW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by kalleg » Feb 18 2019 7:00am

tomtom50 wrote:
Feb 16 2019 6:00pm
kalleg wrote:
Feb 14 2019 3:45am
I'm about to start a 2-wheel cargo build (Bullit-style Longjohn but in steel), and have a few questions. I understand theres quite a few variables concerning which motor to buy, and I have a hard time getting my head around it. I already have a BBS02 48V 750W system on a different cargo bike, so I would like to stay with 48V for compatibility. I'm gunning for an IGH 3 or 7 gears on a 26" rear wheel. I will transport my two kids and myself which adds up to about 120-130 kg atm. The commute is mostly flat with a long slight incline at each end (I would love a nice combination of torque and speed). I'm looking to buy from PSWPowers german stock, as I live in Copenhagen. I'm planning to run the Open Source firmware with the KT-LCD3.

In your opinion, should i go for overvolting the 36V to 48V, or should I go with a 48V version from the get-go? I also had the understanding that an electric motor runs cooler at higher cadence in regards to overloading. Is this true?

ATM I have my eyes on this one (8-pin version!?):

Also do you have any advice as to how I should set the gearing (front and rear sprocket size/teeth)? Again there's a lot of variables. The Nexus IGH3 seems like a simple and cheap solution:

https://electricbike-blog.com/2015/11/2 ... h-a-bbs02/

Let me know if you have any advice. Thanks all for your great work and information.
Sounds like a fun project. In your case everything follows a pedal cadence that is comfortable for you. After you have that number you know what motor to order. On your bike find a gear that is comfortable and time how many crank rotations you make per minute. For example count the revolutions you make in two minutes and divide by two. The the motor decision is probably easy. Your natural cadence is probably 80 rpm or less (most people are in that range). In your case that means a 48V motor on a 48V battery. Use the standard 42T front chainring. It gives the best chainline. Personally I would buy 8-pin because throttle/temp sensor can be added later.

If your natural cadence is over 90 you may want to run a 36V motor on 48V. If you are definitely going open source with the KT-LCD3 no issues, buy a 36V system and set the battery parameters with the KT-LCD3. If you are using stock display and firmware for a while you would need to flash stock 48V firmware onto the 36V controller.
kalleg wrote:
Feb 14 2019 3:45am
I also had the understanding that an electric motor runs cooler at higher cadence in regards to overloading. Is this true?
It is a factor in a limited technical sense but not worth worrying about.

3 vs 7 speed, the rear cog, the amount of power you will use in assist all interact, but the nice thing about an IGH is the rear cog is easy to change to lower or raise the whole range. If you really want to calculate in advance you need to know:
1. Your natural cadence
2. Grade of the steepest hill you want to climb (you can use google elevation to figure this out for a given climb)
3. Power use on the flat (do you want to go fast and draw 350W? Do you want to save battery and draw 150W?) this tells you the speed to gear to at natural cadence
4. the ratios in the hub for each gear

Use bikecalculator.com if you want to to get a feel about how watts relate to hills, weight, and speed.

It's a lot of calculation (the sort of thing I love), but if you aren't an engineer you can pick a common rear cog and adjust if the range is too high or low.

I live in hill country so I cannot imagine choosing 3-speed over a 7-speed, but in Denmark 3-speeds might make total sense if the jumps between gears are not too large. If it is a wide range 3-speed you could end up only using one gear. If you never see more than a long slight incline you might not need gears at all, just a well-chosen rear cog. Use more assist and climb the long slight hill at the same speed you ride on the flat.
Thank you so much for your reply and time. I tested my preferred cadence this morning and I think I will go with the 48V. In regards to gearing I haven't really thought of the option to do singlespeed. My BBS02 has a Nuvinci 380 automatic gear, but if I turn it off it seems to have no problem torquing through a single gear. Ofc the cadence will then be high on top speed, the N3 should give some flexibility in this matter. The range of the Shimano Nexus hub is slightly wider than that of other 3-speed hubs:

Ratio 0.733 1.000 1.364
Step 36.4% 36.4%

But I imagine I'm gonna need that range for when the bike is heavy loaded. At least it's worth a try, and not a very expensive trial.

Thanks again. I will report back with my findings :)

kalleg   10 µW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by kalleg » Feb 18 2019 7:15am

Retrorockit wrote:
Feb 17 2019 1:30pm

I'm new to this forum and having trouble with the quote tool.
I mentioned the SRAM DDS3-24. But I've become aware of a better option. Sturmey Archer makes an IGH 3 speed that takes 8-9 speed casettes also. Much stronger and probably better parts availability than SRAM.
http://www.sturmey-archer.com/en/produc ... rk3-silver
Hi Retro

Thank you for your reply. I've been looking at the Sturmey Archer, and maybe thats a good solution for me. It's twice the cost but still relatively cheap (Rohloff etc.). I've read about it here:

https://electricbike-blog.com/2016/01/1 ... da-da-dum/

I quote:
Looking at the planetary gearing in the SA 3 speed IGH the gears are big and have lots of teeth. I intentionally tried to shift under load at 2000W (which you should never ever do) and it was silky smooth with no issues at all. The Nexus 3 in comparison make a lot of strange noises when you try to shift it under load that make it sound like if you keep doing it you will be sorry.
But:
The only complaint I had about the SA 3 speed IGH was the continuous clicking from the freewheel when the bike was being pedaled normally.
Both versions could work though, I'm gonna flip a coin.

kalleg   10 µW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by kalleg » Feb 18 2019 7:24am

knutselmaaster wrote:
Feb 17 2019 2:28pm
In my humble opinion, this motor isn't suitable for cargo bikes or other heavy loads.
It is great stuff and quite well built but (as always) as it is lightweight it isn't very resistant.
Very good for easy conditions and lightweight loads but not for hard work.
Pushing it to its limits will result in deception but if you remain within its limits it will be a great and durable motor.
No for "real mountain biking", cargo bikes, heavy riders without leg muscles, high mountains, etc.
Yes for in the city, race bikes, sportive riders, easy and not to steep climbs, etc

And don't use a nexus 3 with a mid motor, you will destroy it, especially on a cargo bike.
Hi Knutsel.

Thank you for your reply. Not what I was hoping to hear, as I've eyeing this motor for a while. The only thing I can compare it to is my BBS02 750w 48v and it is very heavy duty (like a motorbike). But I actually miss the "real" bicycle experience as I mostly use the throttle (it has no torque sensor and peddling seems a bit redundant). I hoped the Tongshen would be the right match, but I guess wattage is not the only parameter to chose a motor from. My only other options atm is the bbshd 1000w. I can also wait for the framebuilder to support the 510 bracket (bafang ultra) – which will happen this summer. But waiting is hard.

Anyone else have experience using the TDSZ2 on a cargo bike?

I'm not sure you're right about the Nexus 3 though. This guy has done everything in his power to try and destroy it with a heavy duty middrive without any luck. Good read:

https://electricbike-blog.com/2015/11/2 ... h-a-bbs02/

kalleg   10 µW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by kalleg » Feb 18 2019 7:27am

Bartman wrote:
Feb 17 2019 4:00pm
Retrorockit wrote:
Feb 17 2019 1:30pm

Hi tomtom (& all)

I've read your tutorial, and followed this thread for a while. I'm about to start a 2-wheel cargo build (Bullit-style Longjohn but in steel), and have a few questions. I understand theres quite a few variables concerning which motor to buy, and I have a hard time getting my head around it. I already have a BBS02 48V 750W system on a different cargo bike, so I would like to stay with 48V for compatibility. I'm gunning for an IGH 3 or 7 gears on a 26" rear wheel. I will transport my two kids and myself which adds up to about 120-130 kg atm. The commute is mostly flat with a long slight incline at each end (I would love a nice combination of torque and speed). I'm looking to buy from PSWPowers german stock, as I live in Copenhagen. I'm planning to run the Open Source firmware with the KT-LCD3.


I'm new to this forum and having trouble with the quote tool.
I mentioned the SRAM DDS3-24. But I've become aware of a better option. Sturmey Archer makes an IGH 3 speed that takes 8-9 speed casettes also. Much stronger and probably better parts availability than SRAM.
http://www.sturmey-archer.com/en/produc ... rk3-silver
I’m doing exactly the same. I’ve bought an Xtracycle leap, and a used mountainbike frame from ebay. I have a spare 36v TSDZ2 and will get another ktlcd3. Currently running v16 of the opensource software on my mountain bike and loving it with the experimental high cadence. But it does eat up the battery and I’m thinking about overvolting my cargo bike with a 48v battery. I’ll build the bike with a standard rear cassete and will be ordering a sturmy archer 3 speed hub / cassette and running it with 10 speed 11-42 cassette with the standard dished 42 tongshen chainring.

I’m running my mountainbike with a custom 8 sprocket 10 speed 11-42 cassette and 34t front chainring. I currently tow a trailer to go camping, but will use the cargo bike when built. I may even try a 34t on the front if the extra length of the Xtracycle leap reduces the chainline issue.
Subscribed! Let us know how it goes. I'm particular interested in whether or not you feel the motor is powerful enough, and can manage the extra weight and need for torque.

knutselmaaster   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by knutselmaaster » Feb 18 2019 8:04am

kalleg wrote:
Feb 18 2019 7:24am
knutselmaaster wrote:
Feb 17 2019 2:28pm
In my humble opinion, this motor isn't suitable for cargo bikes or other heavy loads.
It is great stuff and quite well built but (as always) as it is lightweight it isn't very resistant.
Very good for easy conditions and lightweight loads but not for hard work.
Pushing it to its limits will result in deception but if you remain within its limits it will be a great and durable motor.
No for "real mountain biking", cargo bikes, heavy riders without leg muscles, high mountains, etc.
Yes for in the city, race bikes, sportive riders, easy and not to steep climbs, etc

And don't use a nexus 3 with a mid motor, you will destroy it, especially on a cargo bike.
Hi Knutsel.

Thank you for your reply. Not what I was hoping to hear, as I've eyeing this motor for a while. The only thing I can compare it to is my BBS02 750w 48v and it is very heavy duty (like a motorbike). But I actually miss the "real" bicycle experience as I mostly use the throttle (it has no torque sensor and peddling seems a bit redundant). I hoped the Tongshen would be the right match, but I guess wattage is not the only parameter to chose a motor from. My only other options atm is the bbshd 1000w. I can also wait for the framebuilder to support the 510 bracket (bafang ultra) – which will happen this summer. But waiting is hard.

Anyone else have experience using the TDSZ2 on a cargo bike?

I'm not sure you're right about the Nexus 3 though. This guy has done everything in his power to try and destroy it with a heavy duty middrive without any luck. Good read:

https://electricbike-blog.com/2015/11/2 ... h-a-bbs02/
Indeed, I might be wrong on the resistance of the Nexus 3. I've opened quite a few up and find it visually kind of "lightweight".
I must admit that I've never seen one broken because of a mid motor (as mid motor bikes are more high end they rarely are equipped with the cheapest Shimano IG...)
I have a bikeshop where I mostly sell bikes made in Holland, these are IG hub equipped 90% of the time.
My experience is that the Nexus 8 is more resistant than the Nexus 7.

Bosch motors used on IG bikes have a different version of firmware that lowers the max torque with at least 20%.
Their technicians explained me that they do that because there were too much problems with IG durability.
This has been confirmed to me by several experienced bike mechanics.
BUT: the problems are caused by the users!
Shifting gear while the motor pulls full power is the cause of these problems, the IG hubs don't break because of the motor power by itself.

So if you use the TSDZ2 on a (loaded) cargo bike with IG I think it would be best to install a big rear cog (so that the motor rpm is high, thus protecting it) and be very careful to release pressure on the pedals before you shift.
There is a delay between the moment that one releases pressure on the pedal and the motor actually powering down, so shifting while climbing will greatly slow down the cargo bike (especially when it's heavy).

raylo32   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by raylo32 » Feb 18 2019 8:12am

I've been looking at the open source firmware, read a lot of the install instructions and seen some good videos. Pretty impressive stuff and I really like all the data that is available... volts, amps, power, etc., as well as all the settings.

The flashing and all is pretty straightforward, not unlike flashing the stock firmware. But a couple of questions:

1. Is the LCD3 compatible and plug and play with the TSDZ2 throttle and their standard mechanical brake e-bike brake levers?

2. If so, do the existing TSDZ2 throttle and brake connectors fit or do they need to be modified?

Retrorockit   10 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Retrorockit » Feb 18 2019 10:25am

knutselmaaster wrote:
Feb 18 2019 8:04am
kalleg wrote:
Feb 18 2019 7:24am
knutselmaaster wrote:
Feb 17 2019 2:28pm
In my humble opinion, this motor isn't suitable for cargo bikes or other heavy loads.
It is great stuff and quite well built but (as always) as it is lightweight it isn't very resistant.
Very good for easy conditions and lightweight loads but not for hard work.
Pushing it to its limits will result in deception but if you remain within its limits it will be a great and durable motor.
No for "real mountain biking", cargo bikes, heavy riders without leg muscles, high mountains, etc.
Yes for in the city, race bikes, sportive riders, easy and not to steep climbs, etc

And don't use a nexus 3 with a mid motor, you will destroy it, especially on a cargo bike.


Hi Knutsel.

Thank you for your reply. Not what I was hoping to hear, as I've eyeing this motor for a while. The only thing I can compare it to is my BBS02 750w 48v and it is very heavy duty (like a motorbike). But I actually miss the "real" bicycle experience as I mostly use the throttle (it has no torque sensor and peddling seems a bit redundant). I hoped the Tongshen would be the right match, but I guess wattage is not the only parameter to chose a motor from. My only other options atm is the bbshd 1000w. I can also wait for the framebuilder to support the 510 bracket (bafang ultra) – which will happen this summer. But waiting is hard.

Anyone else have experience using the TDSZ2 on a cargo bike?

I'm not sure you're right about the Nexus 3 though. This guy has done everything in his power to try and destroy it with a heavy duty middrive without any luck. Good read:

https://electricbike-blog.com/2015/11/2 ... h-a-bbs02/
Indeed, I might be wrong on the resistance of the Nexus 3. I've opened quite a few up and find it visually kind of "lightweight".
I must admit that I've never seen one broken because of a mid motor (as mid motor bikes are more high end they rarely are equipped with the cheapest Shimano IG...)
I have a bikeshop where I mostly sell bikes made in Holland, these are IG hub equipped 90% of the time.
My experience is that the Nexus 8 is more resistant than the Nexus 7.

Bosch motors used on IG bikes have a different version of firmware that lowers the max torque with at least 20%.
Their technicians explained me that they do that because there were too much problems with IG durability.
This has been confirmed to me by several experienced bike mechanics.
BUT: the problems are caused by the users!
Shifting gear while the motor pulls full power is the cause of these problems, the IG hubs don't break because of the motor power by itself.

So if you use the TSDZ2 on a (loaded) cargo bike with IG I think it would be best to install a big rear cog (so that the motor rpm is high, thus protecting it) and be very careful to release pressure on the pedals before you shift.
There is a delay between the moment that one releases pressure on the pedal and the motor actually powering down, so shifting while climbing will greatly slow down the cargo bike (especially when it's heavy).
IMO the Bafang BBSHD would be hard to beat for a cargo bike. It can do 30A sustained power. Definitely the strong silent type. It can be detuned to 750W if that's what's required. The only thing that costs more than doing it right the first time is doing it right the second time. Torque sensing isn't part of the deal though.

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Re: Open Source / Stock Firmware Tutorial

Post by hefest » Feb 18 2019 10:48am

tomtom50 wrote:
Feb 08 2019 7:47pm
Antenor wrote:
Feb 08 2019 1:57pm
That would be great :D

The information is too spread over the topic
Here is my attempt at a comprehensive tutorial for installing Open-Source firmware with KT-LCD3 and also flashing stock firmware.. Revise as you like. I hope it works for others.
Open Source and Stock Firmware Tutorial.doc
This is great stuff you did there.
This should be part of the Wiki pages of OpenSource firmware.
I'm positively sure a lot of users are put off by the amount of digging through the forums required to pull this of correctly the first time. :bigthumb:

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by hefest » Feb 18 2019 12:27pm

After a lot of research I finally ordered tsdz2 48V 750W with brakes and throttle.
Now I need to get the battery for it.

One option is
48V 10.4AH Li-ion Dolphin E-Bike Battery with Charger Made of LG LGEBM261865
http://www.pswpower.com/ven.php?cargo.2017-5f-31t0

Another is 48V 11.6Ah with Samsung 25r cells. This one looks like an overkill for a tsdz2 which draws maximum of 18A.

Any suggestions?

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by mctubster » Feb 18 2019 2:08pm

kalleg wrote:
Feb 18 2019 7:24am

Hi Knutsel.

Thank you for your reply. Not what I was hoping to hear, as I've eyeing this motor for a while. The only thing I can compare it to is my BBS02 750w 48v and it is very heavy duty (like a motorbike). But I actually miss the "real" bicycle experience as I mostly use the throttle (it has no torque sensor and peddling seems a bit redundant). I hoped the Tongshen would be the right match, but I guess wattage is not the only parameter to chose a motor from. My only other options atm is the bbshd 1000w. I can also wait for the framebuilder to support the 510 bracket (bafang ultra) – which will happen this summer. But waiting is hard.

Anyone else have experience using the TDSZ2 on a cargo bike?
Your comments mirror my thoughts re the TDSZ2. You are riding a assisted bike, not a moped or motorbike.

I switched from a Bafang to the TDSZ2 because of this on my cargo bike. If you are actually interested in riding your cargo bike and getting exercise it is a perfect match. I ride around 25-30kmh with me putting out 100-200W and the motor generally running 0.5:1 or 1:1 depending on my energy levels, head wind etc. Perfect match. I don't why people want 500W sustained, on the flat that is a dangerous speed for a generic bicycle - buy a motor bike or a electric motor bike so you have the brakes, lighting, suspension for higher speeds.

Cheers

knutselmaaster   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by knutselmaaster » Feb 18 2019 2:36pm

Lol yes, the difference in view between Europeans and Americans always makes me laugh.
It has been this way for cars, motorcycles and now electric bikes.
The Americans want huge power while the Europeans prefer lightweight and easy handling.
I read some articles on @Spinningmagnets website where he states that it is because of our European laws but that is not entirely the case in my humble opinion.
Sure, we are restricted by these low power and low speed regulations but a lot of people also prefer this.
Most of my clients just want some assistance on the difficult parts, they use no assistance or low PAS settings on flat road.
Still, in some cases these power restrictions really make it difficult to have enough assistance, for instance for heavy riders, handicapped persons, high mountains and ... Cargo bikes.

Either side of the ocean, the important thing of a solid, homogeneous and durable build is the same: Using the right components for the task and not pushing them to the max of their ability.

Sending 750w through a TSDZ2 is possible but only if the circumstances match: Lightweight rider, not too steep/high climbs, ...
For heavy use, this motor needs to be protected by lowering the power. If that is not enough power, one should choose a bigger motor.

I've just started to test and investigate this motor so I am far from being expert but it is clear and simple that a small, cheap and lightweight motor (no matter what type) is never going to be able to deliver very high power. You can't fool physics, you can't fool mechanical resistance and miracles don't exist.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Bartman » Feb 18 2019 3:25pm

mctubster wrote:
Feb 18 2019 2:08pm
kalleg wrote:
Feb 18 2019 7:24am

Hi Knutsel.

Thank you for your reply. Not what I was hoping to hear, as I've eyeing this motor for a while. The only thing I can compare it to is my BBS02 750w 48v and it is very heavy duty (like a motorbike). But I actually miss the "real" bicycle experience as I mostly use the throttle (it has no torque sensor and peddling seems a bit redundant). I hoped the Tongshen would be the right match, but I guess wattage is not the only parameter to chose a motor from. My only other options atm is the bbshd 1000w. I can also wait for the framebuilder to support the 510 bracket (bafang ultra) – which will happen this summer. But waiting is hard.

Anyone else have experience using the TDSZ2 on a cargo bike?
Your comments mirror my thoughts re the TDSZ2. You are riding a assisted bike, not a moped or motorbike.

I switched from a Bafang to the TDSZ2 because of this on my cargo bike. If you are actually interested in riding your cargo bike and getting exercise it is a perfect match. I ride around 25-30kmh with me putting out 100-200W and the motor generally running 0.5:1 or 1:1 depending on my energy levels, head wind etc. Perfect match. I don't why people want 500W sustained, on the flat that is a dangerous speed for a generic bicycle - buy a motor bike or a electric motor bike so you have the brakes, lighting, suspension for higher speeds.

Cheers
I do a lot of mountain biking and wild camping with my TSDZ2 36v equipped Whyte 901. I tow a Toute Terrain Trailer (7kg), loaded with approx 20kg of equipment, food and water, and also have a backpack of about 8kg. I ride up some pretty steep hills and off-road track to get to my camp spots. I run a 34t front / 42 rear and can get up some very steep inclines. My motor can hit 600 watts on the really steep climbs but on the flat its about 250 / 300 watt. IMHO, the best way to achieve long motor life is low gearing, smooth gearchange and a smooth riding style.
whyte 1.jpg
whyte 2.jpg
Last edited by Bartman on Feb 18 2019 3:31pm, edited 1 time in total.

casainho   1.21 GW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by casainho » Feb 18 2019 3:30pm

Bartman wrote:
Feb 18 2019 3:25pm
mctubster wrote:
Feb 18 2019 2:08pm
kalleg wrote:
Feb 18 2019 7:24am

Hi Knutsel.

Thank you for your reply. Not what I was hoping to hear, as I've eyeing this motor for a while. The only thing I can compare it to is my BBS02 750w 48v and it is very heavy duty (like a motorbike). But I actually miss the "real" bicycle experience as I mostly use the throttle (it has no torque sensor and peddling seems a bit redundant). I hoped the Tongshen would be the right match, but I guess wattage is not the only parameter to chose a motor from. My only other options atm is the bbshd 1000w. I can also wait for the framebuilder to support the 510 bracket (bafang ultra) – which will happen this summer. But waiting is hard.

Anyone else have experience using the TDSZ2 on a cargo bike?
Your comments mirror my thoughts re the TDSZ2. You are riding a assisted bike, not a moped or motorbike.

I switched from a Bafang to the TDSZ2 because of this on my cargo bike. If you are actually interested in riding your cargo bike and getting exercise it is a perfect match. I ride around 25-30kmh with me putting out 100-200W and the motor generally running 0.5:1 or 1:1 depending on my energy levels, head wind etc. Perfect match. I don't why people want 500W sustained, on the flat that is a dangerous speed for a generic bicycle - buy a motor bike or a electric motor bike so you have the brakes, lighting, suspension for higher speeds.

Cheers
I do a lot of mountain biking and wild camping with my TSDZ2 36v equipped Whyte 901. I tow a Toute Terrain Trailer (7kg), loaded with approx 20kg of equipment, food and water, and also have a backpack of about 8kg. I ride up some pretty steep hills and off-road track to get to my camp spots. I run a 34t front / 42 rear and can get up some very steep inclines. My motor can hit 600 watts on the really steep climbs but on the flat its about 250 / 300 watt. The best way to achieve long motor life is low gearing, smooth gearchange and a smooth riding style.

whyte 1.jpgwhyte 2.jpg
Thanks for sharing, this is the first time I see pictures of such a thing and description.

I also use the 34T at front and 50T rear -- I have 9 speed and I found on ebay 9 speed with max plate of 50T and works as expected.

And at the city, with the same bicycle, I use a large plate at front like 52T (2 gears at front) and I drive at 40/45km.
Developer of the Flexible OpenSource firmware for EBike motor controllers (TSDZ2 and KT) and LCDs (KT-LCD3 and Bafang 850C color LCD).

If you like my work, please consider making a donation. I am being using the donations to buy needed resources for my developments. My paypal: casainho AT gmail.com.

Bartman   10 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Bartman » Feb 18 2019 3:35pm

casainho wrote:
Feb 18 2019 3:30pm
Bartman wrote:
Feb 18 2019 3:25pm
mctubster wrote:
Feb 18 2019 2:08pm
kalleg wrote:
Feb 18 2019 7:24am

Hi Knutsel.

Thank you for your reply. Not what I was hoping to hear, as I've eyeing this motor for a while. The only thing I can compare it to is my BBS02 750w 48v and it is very heavy duty (like a motorbike). But I actually miss the "real" bicycle experience as I mostly use the throttle (it has no torque sensor and peddling seems a bit redundant). I hoped the Tongshen would be the right match, but I guess wattage is not the only parameter to chose a motor from. My only other options atm is the bbshd 1000w. I can also wait for the framebuilder to support the 510 bracket (bafang ultra) – which will happen this summer. But waiting is hard.

Anyone else have experience using the TDSZ2 on a cargo bike?
Your comments mirror my thoughts re the TDSZ2. You are riding a assisted bike, not a moped or motorbike.

I switched from a Bafang to the TDSZ2 because of this on my cargo bike. If you are actually interested in riding your cargo bike and getting exercise it is a perfect match. I ride around 25-30kmh with me putting out 100-200W and the motor generally running 0.5:1 or 1:1 depending on my energy levels, head wind etc. Perfect match. I don't why people want 500W sustained, on the flat that is a dangerous speed for a generic bicycle - buy a motor bike or a electric motor bike so you have the brakes, lighting, suspension for higher speeds.

Cheers
I do a lot of mountain biking and wild camping with my TSDZ2 36v equipped Whyte 901. I tow a Toute Terrain Trailer (7kg), loaded with approx 20kg of equipment, food and water, and also have a backpack of about 8kg. I ride up some pretty steep hills and off-road track to get to my camp spots. I run a 34t front / 42 rear and can get up some very steep inclines. My motor can hit 600 watts on the really steep climbs but on the flat its about 250 / 300 watt. The best way to achieve long motor life is low gearing, smooth gearchange and a smooth riding style.

whyte 1.jpgwhyte 2.jpg
Thanks for sharing, this is the first time I see pictures of such a thing and description.

I also use the 34T at front and 50T rear -- I have 9 speed and I found on ebay 9 speed with max plate of 50T and works as expected.

And at the city, with the same bicycle, I use a large plate at front like 52T (2 gears at front) and I drive at 40/45km.
Intersting about the 50t 9 speed cassette. Do you have a web link for it ? It may be my next purchase.

knutselmaaster   100 W

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Posts: 264
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Location: near Paris, France

Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by knutselmaaster » Feb 18 2019 3:47pm

Great stuff, keep it coming!
Thank you for sharing Bartman, quite amazing what the motor can handle when used right.
With that gearing it should have enormous torque!
How did you manage to get the chain line acceptable?

mctubster   100 W

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Posts: 174
Joined: Feb 26 2018 6:21am

Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by mctubster » Feb 18 2019 3:59pm

Bartman wrote:
Feb 18 2019 3:25pm

I do a lot of mountain biking and wild camping with my TSDZ2 36v equipped Whyte 901. I tow a Toute Terrain Trailer (7kg), loaded with approx 20kg of equipment, food and water, and also have a backpack of about 8kg. I ride up some pretty steep hills and off-road track to get to my camp spots. I run a 34t front / 42 rear and can get up some very steep inclines. My motor can hit 600 watts on the really steep climbs but on the flat its about 250 / 300 watt. IMHO, the best way to achieve long motor life is low gearing, smooth gearchange and a smooth riding style.

whyte 1.jpgwhyte 2.jpg
That is perfect usage of an assist motor - which is what this is. My motor pulls 500W when starting from a stop for 10 seconds with the kids 35KG, cargo 10KG, bike 45KG, me 80KG = 170KG but once up to speed 100-200W steady state on the flat.

I will fit the temperature sensor at some point, but through my usage and climate I am at less risk of overheat than perhaps you climbing a big hill. It is good you are using low gearing to keep the motor and your legs efficient :)

Great trailer!

Cheers

tomtom50   100 W

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Posts: 186
Joined: Jun 18 2018 10:09am

Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by tomtom50 » Feb 18 2019 4:30pm

Kisazul wrote:
Feb 17 2019 10:30pm
Hi. your problem is likely the sensor speed. look at the installation of the magnet on the spokes. install it exactly. distance from the magnet to the sensor must be a little.
Yes. The distance can't be too close or too far. About 5mm works well. You can rotate the sensor on your chainstay to adjust the distance.

tomtom50   100 W

100 W
Posts: 186
Joined: Jun 18 2018 10:09am

Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by tomtom50 » Feb 18 2019 4:37pm

kalleg wrote:
Feb 18 2019 7:00am
Thank you so much for your reply and time. I tested my preferred cadence this morning and I think I will go with the 48V. In regards to gearing I haven't really thought of the option to do singlespeed.
You're welcome. I hadn't thought of single-speed either. But replying to your post got me looking and I realized the 306% Nexus/Alfine 8-speed hubs have almost the same range as my 327% 11-36 cluster. So why am I bothering with a rear derailleur and the chainline problems?

I looked on ebay and found a new Nexus 8-speed hub for $70 USD, so I ordered it. Later I will order the shifter, 20T cog, and the cassette mounting and switch over. In the past I had looked for an 8 speed hub but they were hundreds of dollars.

tomtom50   100 W

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Posts: 186
Joined: Jun 18 2018 10:09am

Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by tomtom50 » Feb 18 2019 5:21pm

kalleg wrote:
Feb 18 2019 7:24am
Hi Knutsel.

Thank you for your reply. Not what I was hoping to hear, as I've eyeing this motor for a while. The only thing I can compare it to is my BBS02 750w 48v and it is very heavy duty (like a motorbike). But I actually miss the "real" bicycle experience as I mostly use the throttle (it has no torque sensor and peddling seems a bit redundant). I hoped the Tongshen would be the right match, but I guess wattage is not the only parameter to chose a motor from. My only other options atm is the bbshd 1000w. I can also wait for the framebuilder to support the 510 bracket (bafang ultra) – which will happen this summer. But waiting is hard.

Anyone else have experience using the TDSZ2 on a cargo bike?

I'm not sure you're right about the Nexus 3 though. This guy has done everything in his power to try and destroy it with a heavy duty middrive without any luck. Good read:

https://electricbike-blog.com/2015/11/2 ... h-a-bbs02/
There are a lot of posts about this, and there is no right answer because it is really a matter of preference.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_power

"During a bicycle race, an elite cyclist can produce close to 400 watts of mechanical power over an hour and in short bursts over double that — 1000 to 1100 watts; modern racing bicycles have greater than 95% mechanical efficiency. An adult of good fitness is more likely to average between 50 and 150 watts for an hour of vigorous exercise. Over an 8-hour work shift, an average, healthy, well-fed and motivated manual laborer may sustain an output of around 75 watts of work."

http://bikecalculator.com/

An elite cyclist (400W) can maintain 24mph for an hour on MTB bars. Double the power to 800W and you go 31 mph.

If your goal is to keep up with street traffic in the city (30mph) you need a lot of power and a Bafang unit is a good choice. And you will be going crazy fast by bicycle standards, faster than a pro racer.

On the other hand, if you contribute 100W you need only 300W from the motor to match the speed of a bicycle race with elite riders.

It is all about expectations. I am a long-time rider, never particularly strong, and I live in Seattle where we have some nasty hills. Now I'm 59 and if I had to climb those hills I wouldn't ride. For me the TSDZ2 is great. I set the power limit to 500W and get plenty of assist for the steepest hills, on the flat I draw about 150W, and I am riding much faster than I could sustain in my twenties.

A cargo bike increases power needs, but still 500W is a lot from a bicycling perspective. We have nasty hills in Seattle, but they aren't more than 10% for more than a couple of blocks. Using bikecalculator 480W is enough to pull 250 lb (114kg) up a 10% grade at 8 mph (12.8kph). So from a bicycling perspective a TSDZ2 is fine for a cargo bike in hilly Seattle.

Bigger ebike motors weigh more and are larger, but don't forget the battery!

As an assist motor a 364 Wh battery is good for 75 miles. A 14S2P 364Wh motor made of GA cells weighs 3 pounds, supplies plenty of amps for a TSDZ2, and is inconspicuous.

https://www.biktrix.ca/products/wee-wee-battery-pack

The battery you need for a high wattage Bafang mid-drive weighs 2-3 times as much and costs a lot more.

It is all about deciding what you want. And it isn't as simple as 'buy a lot of power and you are covered either way'. I was conservative and bought a 7 pound 14S3P battery and I wish I hadn't. It has way more range than I need and is bigger and heavier than I want. But I'm stuck with it because batteries are expensive.

tomtom50   100 W

100 W
Posts: 186
Joined: Jun 18 2018 10:09am

Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by tomtom50 » Feb 18 2019 5:24pm

tomtom50 wrote:
Feb 18 2019 5:21pm
kalleg wrote:
Feb 18 2019 7:24am
Hi Knutsel.

Thank you for your reply. Not what I was hoping to hear, as I've eyeing this motor for a while. The only thing I can compare it to is my BBS02 750w 48v and it is very heavy duty (like a motorbike). But I actually miss the "real" bicycle experience as I mostly use the throttle (it has no torque sensor and peddling seems a bit redundant). I hoped the Tongshen would be the right match, but I guess wattage is not the only parameter to chose a motor from. My only other options atm is the bbshd 1000w. I can also wait for the framebuilder to support the 510 bracket (bafang ultra) – which will happen this summer. But waiting is hard.

Anyone else have experience using the TDSZ2 on a cargo bike?

I'm not sure you're right about the Nexus 3 though. This guy has done everything in his power to try and destroy it with a heavy duty middrive without any luck. Good read:

https://electricbike-blog.com/2015/11/2 ... h-a-bbs02/
There are a lot of posts about this, and there is no right answer because it is really a matter of preference.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_power

"During a bicycle race, an elite cyclist can produce close to 400 watts of mechanical power over an hour and in short bursts over double that — 1000 to 1100 watts; modern racing bicycles have greater than 95% mechanical efficiency. An adult of good fitness is more likely to average between 50 and 150 watts for an hour of vigorous exercise. Over an 8-hour work shift, an average, healthy, well-fed and motivated manual laborer may sustain an output of around 75 watts of work."

http://bikecalculator.com/

An elite cyclist (400W) can maintain 24mph for an hour on MTB bars. Double the power to 800W and you go 31 mph.

If your goal is to keep up with street traffic in the city (30mph) you need a lot of power and a Bafang unit is a good choice. And you will be going crazy fast by bicycle standards, faster than a pro racer.

On the other hand, if you contribute 100W you need only 300W from the motor to match the speed of a bicycle race with elite riders.

It is all about expectations. I am a long-time rider, never particularly strong, and I live in Seattle where we have some nasty hills. Now I'm 59 and if I had to climb those hills I wouldn't ride. For me the TSDZ2 is great. I set the power limit to 500W and get plenty of assist for the steepest hills, on the flat I draw about 150W, and I am riding much faster than I could sustain in my twenties.

A cargo bike increases power needs, but still 500W is a lot from a bicycling perspective. We have nasty hills in Seattle, but they aren't more than 10% for more than a couple of blocks. Using bikecalculator 480W is enough to pull 250 lb (114kg) up a 10% grade at 8 mph (12.8kph). So from a bicycling perspective a TSDZ2 is fine for a cargo bike in hilly Seattle.

Bigger ebike motors weigh more and are larger, but don't forget the battery!

As an assist motor a 364 Wh battery is good for 75 miles. A 14S2P 364Wh pack made of GA cells weighs 3 pounds, supplies plenty of amps for a TSDZ2, and is inconspicuous.

https://www.biktrix.ca/products/wee-wee-battery-pack

The battery you need for a high-wattage Bafang mid-drive weighs 2-3 times as much and costs a lot more.

It is all about deciding what your use will be. And it isn't as simple as 'buy a lot of power and you are covered either way'. I was conservative and bought a 7 pound 14S4P battery and now I wish I hadn't. It has twice the range I need and is big and heavy. But I'm stuck with it because batteries are expensive.
Last edited by tomtom50 on Feb 19 2019 12:44am, edited 1 time in total.

tomtom50   100 W

100 W
Posts: 186
Joined: Jun 18 2018 10:09am

Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by tomtom50 » Feb 18 2019 5:27pm

Double-posted. Not sure how that happened.
Last edited by tomtom50 on Feb 19 2019 12:46am, edited 1 time in total.

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