New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

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thineight   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by thineight » Apr 22 2019 1:01pm

nomidis wrote:
Apr 22 2019 10:10am
That would require to buy some equipment right?
I would prefer to stick with this original firmware for a couple of months..

Is there no other solution for this?
(If not, ok, I can live with it) :wink:
I guess you can write the data memory with a programmer (the same you use to upload the open source former). You should write the hex value of the wheel circumference.. there are instructions to do so, you
just need a little bit of perseverance to learn the first steps..
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nomidis   10 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by nomidis » Apr 22 2019 2:24pm

thineight wrote:
Apr 22 2019 1:01pm
I guess you can write the data memory with a programmer (the same you use to upload the open source former). You should write the hex value of the wheel circumference.. there are instructions to do so, you
just need a little bit of perseverance to learn the first steps..
So, can I do this without any extra hardware? How do I connect? Through usb?
Let me remind you that I have this kit (vlcd5):
http://www.pswpower.com/ven.php?cargo.2018-4c-h1fm

Also, what are other benefits I can gain, compared to the stock firmware?

thineight   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by thineight » Apr 22 2019 4:47pm

You need the programmer (Google st link v2 clone) and a way to wire the actual motor (see the wiki of the opensource firmware).
There you can reprogram some parameters of the stock firmware.
Otherwise you can keep your VLCD5 and use the marcoq version (it is a fork of casainho firmware that uses the stock displays).

For the advantages see the main page of the opensource firmware, you can find the link in each message from casainho.
MTB KTM Ultra 29" - City bike DAYTONA 28"

nomidis   10 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by nomidis » Apr 23 2019 2:55am

thineight wrote:
Apr 22 2019 4:47pm
You need the programmer (Google st link v2 clone) and a way to wire the actual motor (see the wiki of the opensource firmware).
There you can reprogram some parameters of the stock firmware.
Otherwise you can keep your VLCD5 and use the marcoq version (it is a fork of casainho firmware that uses the stock displays).

For the advantages see the main page of the opensource firmware, you can find the link in each message from casainho.
Thank you thineight!
Where is this "main page"? A link would be much appreciated!

thineight   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by thineight » Apr 23 2019 3:12am

https://github.com/OpenSource-EBike-fir ... _wiki/wiki

It's below each message written by casainho. Many answers are there...
MTB KTM Ultra 29" - City bike DAYTONA 28"

hefest   10 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by hefest » Apr 23 2019 4:40am

About the heat dissipating issue, what do you guys think of using thermal pads to fill in the gap between the motor and the casing? Something like this

US $1.19 13%OFF | 2016 high quality 10mm*10mm*1mm 100 pcs Thermal Pad GPU CPU Heatsink Cooling Conductive Silicone Pad
https://s.click.aliexpress.com/e/baDC2Tgc

I'm not sure how big the space between the motor and the casing is.

Aeron   10 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Aeron » Apr 23 2019 9:13am

hefest wrote:
Apr 23 2019 4:40am
About the heat dissipating issue, what do you guys think of using thermal pads to fill in the gap between the motor and the casing?

[...]

I'm not sure how big the space between the motor and the casing is.
From what I have seen of the motor, and given my experience of this product, even if the space was small enough the way the cover finds its place aroung the motor prevents the use of such a fragile material, which needs to be compressed a little, but is very weak when sheared (which is exactly what would occur when installing the motor cover).
Last edited by Aeron on Apr 28 2019 2:29am, edited 2 times in total.

hefest   10 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by hefest » Apr 23 2019 10:05am

Aeron wrote:
Apr 23 2019 9:13am
From what I have seen of the motor, and given my experience of this product, even if the space was small enoguh the way the cover finds its place aroung the motor prevents the use of such a fragile material, which needs to be compressed a little, but is very weak when sheared (which is exactly what would occur when installing the motor cover).
What about aluminium flexible heatsink or heatsink metal sponge? There are two placea where it can be fixed, one is ring around the motor near the big gear casing and another one would be ring around motor on the outside. Maybe if we place it in different spots it could help cooling.

Mike-P   10 mW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Mike-P » Apr 23 2019 12:44pm

nomidis wrote:
Apr 22 2019 10:03am
The setting I ve put in the configuration wizard is "700".
Should I change it to something else?
You could try a different setting, 700 wheels are 622mm diameter but the tyres will add to the diameter; for that reason most bike computers require the wheel circumference entering which for 700 wheels will range from 2070mm for a 18 tyre (659mm diameter) to 2268mm for a 47 tyre (722mm diameter). A pretty weak feature of the stock programming therefore to simply offer basic wheel sizes and presumably explains why my motor does not cut out until, according to the display, 16mph.

torque72   1 µW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by torque72 » Apr 23 2019 2:30pm

Concerning the heat problem: I think that anything is better than just air, but it should fill the gap between motor and casing to a large extent and make good connectivity to the surfaces.
Problem is, that gap is not so small, I guess from 1..2mm up to 5mm in some places. I was able to put in quite a lot of engine grease in my trial.

Shortly looked up thermal conductivity: air roughly 0.03 W/(m*K), oil up to 0.2, thermal grease up to 1.0 (I think that's the expensive silcon stuff you get in ml doses?), steel up to 60, aluminium 237.

So, although my trial with massive grease in the case brought considerable improvement, there's room for improvement. I'm thinking about using compressed steel wool + grease combined. Should I fear using electrical conductive material on the motor's surface (I believe not)?

Aeron   10 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Aeron » Apr 24 2019 7:37am

hefest wrote:
Apr 23 2019 10:05am
What about aluminium flexible heatsink or heatsink metal sponge?
I don't know these products, but I guess these are some kind of mesh, so a lot in air in it, right ?
torque72 wrote:
Apr 23 2019 2:30pm
Concerning the heat problem: I think that anything is better than just air, but it should fill the gap between motor and casing to a large extent and make good connectivity to the surfaces.
Problem is, that gap is not so small, I guess from 1..2mm up to 5mm in some places. I was able to put in quite a lot of engine grease in my trial.
Would an oil bath be a possible solution (is the casing sealed/sealable ?) ?

ThousandWax   100 µW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by ThousandWax » Apr 24 2019 1:28pm

Transferring heat from the motor to the shell was discussed previously (albeit briefly)

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 4#p1452234

I still think the cheapest easy way is to fill the cavity with aluminium foil (or tape) whilst avoiding the electrically conducting parts. There should be a great benefit from conducting the heat to the shell. In sheathed heating elements, magnesium oxide powder is used for both its electrical insulation and thermal conductivity properties, so if you can find a source of that it would probably be better. Or maybe you could use a combination of thermal paste and some metal to better fill the cavity. Braided copper wire would also work very well.

Many of the conductive EMI shielding materials are made of sponge with a metallised fabric or soft flexible wire covering the sponge, which sounds perhaps like what you were looking for, but I am not sure if they will conduct heat as well as the other methods.

Alternatively you could use some sort of phase change material (PCM) that is solid at low temperature but liquidifies at (say) 55°C or so. You can use paraffin or maybe even bee's wax.. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phase-change_material
That would need to be added into the hot motor casing, but would surely help stabilise the motor temperature. The idea is to store the heat energy generated during the (high current) climbs, while conducting the heat away to the case. It takes a lot of energy to change the state of a material (some more than others though). As long as the material is compatible with the motor and cover, and melts at a temperature below that of motor de-magnetisation it should help reduce the peak temperature at the motor, keeping the motor from damaging temperatures.

Using steel wool could introduce some corrosion issues over time, and that could introduce particles into moving parts, but you could reduce that with grease coating the steel wool. Or not worry about that..

Halvarsson   1 µW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Halvarsson » Apr 25 2019 10:50am

Looking for coaster brake version with max power. i can find version with 36v and 350w wich is good but not enough when non-coaster brake version is everywhere with 48V 15A (750W) and the same price.

Maybe i look at the wrong place to buy? (pswpower)

Or is there a very good reason why it is not available a coaster brake version with more than 350W 36V?
safety reasons?

/H

Retrorockit   10 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Retrorockit » Apr 25 2019 1:44pm

hefest wrote:
Apr 23 2019 4:40am
About the heat dissipating issue, what do you guys think of using thermal pads to fill in the gap between the motor and the casing? Something like this

US $1.19 13%OFF | 2016 high quality 10mm*10mm*1mm 100 pcs Thermal Pad GPU CPU Heatsink Cooling Conductive Silicone Pad
https://s.click.aliexpress.com/e/baDC2Tgc

I'm not sure how big the space between the motor and the casing is.
I was thinking about flat braided copper cable that's used for ground cables. Maybe coat it with some TIM material like Arctic Siver for a wet interface. But I don't know the size of the gap either. If it's too thick hammering it flatter should improve the density of it.

Retrorockit   10 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Retrorockit » Apr 25 2019 1:58pm

Halvarsson wrote:
Apr 25 2019 10:50am
Looking for coaster brake version with max power. i can find version with 36v and 350w wich is good but not enough when non-coaster brake version is everywhere with 48V 15A (750W) and the same price.

Maybe i look at the wrong place to buy? (pswpower)

Or is there a very good reason why it is not available a coaster brake version with more than 350W 36V?
safety reasons?

/H
Coaster brakes tend to be used on low speed Cruiser type bikes, and are usually the only brake on the bike. Or for childrens bikes where hand strength and coordination aren't developed yet.
Faster bikes almost always have front and rear brakes that are hand operated to allow modulation between front and rear braking for safety reasons. This would be difficult to coordinate between a backpedaling foot brake and a front hand brake. Also there is a delay in braking that may occur in bringing the pedal to a position where braking is possible. Again not a good idea on a fast bike. I would like to see one offered for bikes that dont use a throttle (PAS only) since theres no need for the troublesome freewheel as the motor won't ever need to go faster than the pedals. But as long as it's considered a "coaster brake" version that probably won't happen.

el_proletario   10 mW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by el_proletario » Apr 25 2019 4:57pm

Halvarsson wrote:
Apr 25 2019 10:50am
Looking for coaster brake version with max power. i can find version with 36v and 350w wich is good but not enough when non-coaster brake version is everywhere with 48V 15A (750W) and the same price.

Maybe i look at the wrong place to buy? (pswpower)

Or is there a very good reason why it is not available a coaster brake version with more than 350W 36V?
safety reasons?

/H
I have the coaster brake version with 350w. To me it has enough power, I can reach 40kmh on flat or go uphill at 20/25kmh (for a few minutes as it can easily overheat if you want to use high gears to go faster on a hill).
The advantage with this version is that you can save your rim brake pads by using the coaster brake as much as you can, like with your regular bike of course but an E-Bike being heavier and much faster, it adds security when you use your rim brakes and the coaster brake at the same time, it's quite efficient in case of emergency.

el_proletario   10 mW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by el_proletario » Apr 25 2019 5:10pm

Retrorockit wrote:
Apr 25 2019 1:58pm
Halvarsson wrote:
Apr 25 2019 10:50am
Looking for coaster brake version with max power. i can find version with 36v and 350w wich is good but not enough when non-coaster brake version is everywhere with 48V 15A (750W) and the same price.

Maybe i look at the wrong place to buy? (pswpower)

Or is there a very good reason why it is not available a coaster brake version with more than 350W 36V?
safety reasons?

/H
Coaster brakes tend to be used on low speed Cruiser type bikes, and are usually the only brake on the bike. Or for childrens bikes where hand strength and coordination aren't developed yet.
Faster bikes almost always have front and rear brakes that are hand operated to allow modulation between front and rear braking for safety reasons. This would be difficult to coordinate between a backpedaling foot brake and a front hand brake. Also there is a delay in braking that may occur in bringing the pedal to a position where braking is possible. Again not a good idea on a fast bike. I would like to see one offered for bikes that dont use a throttle (PAS only) since theres no need for the troublesome freewheel as the motor won't ever need to go faster than the pedals. But as long as it's considered a "coaster brake" version that probably won't happen.
Not only for children or cruising bikes. It's quite popular in Germany and the Netherlands on city bikes, and nowdays they all have front and rear rim brakes in addition to the coaster brake. After some practice you can coordinate foot and hand brake and mostly anticipate much sooner situations like traffic lights, long downhills etc. I feel more secure having this extra brake actually, I think it's an advantage when the bike is used in a city / for commuting.

hefest   10 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by hefest » Apr 26 2019 8:16am

Retrorockit wrote:
Apr 25 2019 1:44pm
hefest wrote:
Apr 23 2019 4:40am
About the heat dissipating issue, what do you guys think of using thermal pads to fill in the gap between the motor and the casing? Something like this

US $1.19 13%OFF | 2016 high quality 10mm*10mm*1mm 100 pcs Thermal Pad GPU CPU Heatsink Cooling Conductive Silicone Pad
https://s.click.aliexpress.com/e/baDC2Tgc

I'm not sure how big the space between the motor and the casing is.
I was thinking about flat braided copper cable that's used for ground cables. Maybe coat it with some TIM material like Arctic Siver for a wet interface. But I don't know the size of the gap either. If it's too thick hammering it flatter should improve the density of it.
Another option would be to have heatsink like you see in computers, wrapped around motor like half circle away from controller. Than bend each of the heatsink fins to one side so the cover can be put on and still achieve contact. It's better thank nothing i guess.

Halvarsson   1 µW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Halvarsson » Apr 26 2019 3:25pm

el_proletario wrote:
Apr 25 2019 5:10pm
Retrorockit wrote:
Apr 25 2019 1:58pm
Halvarsson wrote:
Apr 25 2019 10:50am
Looking for coaster brake version with max power. i can find version with 36v and 350w wich is good but not enough when non-coaster brake version is everywhere with 48V 15A (750W) and the same price.

Maybe i look at the wrong place to buy? (pswpower)

Or is there a very good reason why it is not available a coaster brake version with more than 350W 36V?
safety reasons?

/H
Coaster brakes tend to be used on low speed Cruiser type bikes, and are usually the only brake on the bike. Or for childrens bikes where hand strength and coordination aren't developed yet.
Faster bikes almost always have front and rear brakes that are hand operated to allow modulation between front and rear braking for safety reasons. This would be difficult to coordinate between a backpedaling foot brake and a front hand brake. Also there is a delay in braking that may occur in bringing the pedal to a position where braking is possible. Again not a good idea on a fast bike. I would like to see one offered for bikes that dont use a throttle (PAS only) since theres no need for the troublesome freewheel as the motor won't ever need to go faster than the pedals. But as long as it's considered a "coaster brake" version that probably won't happen.
Not only for children or cruising bikes. It's quite popular in Germany and the Netherlands on city bikes, and nowdays they all have front and rear rim brakes in addition to the coaster brake. After some practice you can coordinate foot and hand brake and mostly anticipate much sooner situations like traffic lights, long downhills etc. I feel more secure having this extra brake actually, I think it's an advantage when the bike is used in a city / for commuting.
Thanks for input!
Sellers i asked (pswpower and some other) answer that 36V is the highest they have for coaster brake version.
They did not answer why, but i guess safety is the reason, well founded or not. The donor bike i had in mind have a beefy front brake and could be upgraded with at least a rim brake in the back. So at least what i think it could handle the extra power if the torque sensor freaks out.
The coaster version is supposed to cut power faster when you stop pedaling according to what i read in this thread. I guess that is a programming issue that could be applied from the factory or with the open software.
An exchange of the 36V bare motor to a 48V spare part version should deal with the 36V problem and a touch of the software to get 15A and there you have 750W.

Well now the question is overdue because i just bought a used Kalkhoff impulse 36v with foot brake and dual hand brakes. Its enough but it was that extra power i wanted for my commuter. Now its just a boring commuter like all the other drones. I guess the kalkhoff is not very hot-rod friendly but hopefully another forum could help if my need becomes acute.

Retrorockit   10 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Retrorockit » Apr 26 2019 6:28pm

el_proletario wrote:
Apr 25 2019 5:10pm
Retrorockit wrote:
Apr 25 2019 1:58pm
Halvarsson wrote:
Apr 25 2019 10:50am
Looking for coaster brake version with max power. i can find version with 36v and 350w wich is good but not enough when non-coaster brake version is everywhere with 48V 15A (750W) and the same price.

Maybe i look at the wrong place to buy? (pswpower)

Or is there a very good reason why it is not available a coaster brake version with more than 350W 36V?
safety reasons?

/H
Coaster brakes tend to be used on low speed Cruiser type bikes, and are usually the only brake on the bike. Or for childrens bikes where hand strength and coordination aren't developed yet.
Faster bikes almost always have front and rear brakes that are hand operated to allow modulation between front and rear braking for safety reasons. This would be difficult to coordinate between a backpedaling foot brake and a front hand brake. Also there is a delay in braking that may occur in bringing the pedal to a position where braking is possible. Again not a good idea on a fast bike. I would like to see one offered for bikes that dont use a throttle (PAS only) since theres no need for the troublesome freewheel as the motor won't ever need to go faster than the pedals. But as long as it's considered a "coaster brake" version that probably won't happen.
Not only for children or cruising bikes. It's quite popular in Germany and the Netherlands on city bikes, and nowdays they all have front and rear rim brakes in addition to the coaster brake. After some practice you can coordinate foot and hand brake and mostly anticipate much sooner situations like traffic lights, long downhills etc. I feel more secure having this extra brake actually, I think it's an advantage when the bike is used in a city / for commuting.
I'm in the US and have never seen multiple brakes like that. But cycling isn't that popular here.
Disc brakes tend to be favored here which ASFAIK doesn't allow coaster brakes also.
But the hubs are made in China and the decisons are made there. They may not be aware of the northern European brake setups. If I had rim brakes in wet weather I would probably want a plan B also.
My brake setup for a fast E bike is 185mm cable discs with metallic pads. The metallic pads were for downhill racing. They cut way down on the frequency of adjustements and can handle the speed and weight easily. I avoid Hydros with metallic pads because they can overheat the fluid.
But I already had the brakes before the conversion so just a pad swap for me.

andrea_104kg   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by andrea_104kg » Apr 27 2019 5:20am

about the cooling, for about a month drawing with this system, but unfortunately it is not very effective. the detected temperature is only about 5-6 degrees lower and in long climbs the engine rises rapidly towards 90 degrees. it cools down faster at the end of the climb. I think I will change by drilling the entire crankcase and painting the engine for protection.
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Pirmoz   10 µW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Pirmoz » Apr 27 2019 11:47am

Hello

First of all thanks to all of the contributors making an effort.
I would like to apologize in advance if the answer to my question has been already posted, but I have been searching for a step by step guide for instalation of the marqoc's firmware and just can't seem to find it.
Can anyone help me or at least push in the right direction.

Thank you

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by ashrambo » Apr 28 2019 6:24am

Pirmoz wrote:Hello

First of all thanks to all of the contributors making an effort.
I would like to apologize in advance if the answer to my question has been already posted, but I have been searching for a step by step guide for instalation of the marqoc's firmware and just can't seem to find it.
Can anyone help me or at least push in the right direction.

Thank you
https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink?url=ht ... are_type=t

Tsdz2 firmware open source adapted to vlcd5

Enviado desde mi SM-G510 mediante Tapatalk

TREK REMEDY MOTOR TSDZ2

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Re: New

Post by Mike-P » Apr 28 2019 12:58pm

I've looked at that thread a number of times and no step by step guide seems to spring out of it as I can see. Would be useful if there was a step by step youtube video. On the subject of the display with the stock firmware having incorrect mileage/speed I have found increasing the wheel size in the wheel diameter selector decreases the speed displayed at which the motor cuts out. Struggling to get my head round that as if a bigger wheel spins as fast as a smaller wheel it will have travelled further so the surely speed should go up not down :confused:

LevelsAndMaps   100 µW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by LevelsAndMaps » Apr 28 2019 6:19pm

andrea_104kg wrote:
Apr 27 2019 5:20am
about the cooling, for about a month drawing with this system, but unfortunately it is not very effective. the detected temperature is only about 5-6 degrees lower and in long climbs the engine rises rapidly towards 90 degrees. it cools down faster at the end of the climb. I think I will change by drilling the entire crankcase and painting the engine for protection.
Brilliant ideea Andrea!

what you need to do is connect a liquid cooling solution directly to the metal inside the casing.
there is no way you can cool down 90C with that small cooler.

I suggest you look into H115i or even H150i.

powering the damn thing should be solvable - 12V / 0.5A
(i know zero about converting power, but maybe you folks are smarter)

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