New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

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Mike-P   10 mW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Mike-P » Apr 29 2019 11:48am

Not sure what the display was playing at yesterday as today the motor apparently did not shut off until 17.1mph so set it the first smaller wheel to a 700 and 15.7mph is the displayed speed at which the motor shuts off. Will try the next but odds on that being less than 15.5mph (25km/h)

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Re: New Build using TSDZ2

Post by holophonic » Apr 29 2019 12:20pm

I'm thinking about a new build using a Motobecane 2019 SRAM FORCE1 Disc Brake Reynolds 853 Steel Cross Bike.

Image


I would switch out the tires to 700C 40C with low rolling resistance -
Image

The motor would be FOS ready from these guys -
https://www.electrifybike.com/store/p113/TSDZ2.html#/

Looking at using their 52v 40-AMP 14Ah Shark II / Hailong I E-bike Battery as well -
https://www.electrifybike.com/store/p32 ... ttery.html#/

Some details so far:
Total cost would be around $3k. Bike would probably weigh around 37 lbs (16.8kg). Looks great on paper.

25 mile commute. I'm pretty aero and would wear a kit most of the time. Typically ride 20mph on flats without assist. I would like to ride the flats around 31mph with this setup while in the drops when no-head wind is present. Going up a couple short 6% hills at 19mph would be nice. I can typically do these around 13 mph. I like to spin around 100 rpm.

Questions:
1. Do these numbers (speed & distance) look about right?
2. Any compatibility issues with this build?
3. I would like to use pedals only... No throttle and no hydraulic brake interface. I've raced MTBs for years so not a fool, but is this setup excessively dangerous?
4. Any general things to be concerned about?

Thanks in advance!

andrea_104kg   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by andrea_104kg » Apr 29 2019 12:55pm

tsdz2 it's capable to do 31mph but it's the maximum for the motor... i think to do this for 25miles it's a stress for the motor...

knutselmaaster   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by knutselmaaster » Apr 29 2019 1:31pm

Why would it be a stress for the motor?
For the motor it is the same as running 10mph in a lighter gear, slightly uphill.
As long as you don't do it while asking it to deliver full power, there shouldn't be any problem.
@holophonic seems to be pushing quite hard on his pedals so he won't need to be on the highest assist level to achieve that speed.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by RyanC » Apr 29 2019 1:34pm

Looking at doing a build with this motor here in the nearish future, one quick question-

If I'm starting a buildup from scratch, what drivetrain would you guys choose? Is there a good IGH for this with wide enough spacing? Or just a 1x10 with derailleur? It seems like something with wider spacing would be even more desirable for a mid drive.

Thanks for any input.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by holophonic » Apr 29 2019 1:39pm

andrea_104kg wrote:
Apr 29 2019 12:55pm
tsdz2 it's capable to do 31mph but it's the maximum for the motor... i think to do this for 25miles it's a stress for the motor...
I just punched in my data into a bunch of online cycling speed/watt calculators. It looks like I need to maintain 600w for 31mph (49.6 km/h). If I contribute 125w easily that means I need only 475w from the motor. That is 300% assistance level. Maybe this is the limit of the motor... I don't know.

Can this motor sustain 475w for a long period of time?

At 52V that works out to be 9.13A at the motor. Assuming 83% efficiency I would need about 11A coming from the battery continuously. Let me know if any of my math is way off.

Note: I'd settle for 30mph if 31mph is not doable. That would shave off about 50 watts.

https://www.gribble.org/cycling/power_v_speed.html

Thanks.

knutselmaaster   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by knutselmaaster » Apr 29 2019 1:43pm

holophonic wrote:
Apr 29 2019 1:39pm
andrea_104kg wrote:
Apr 29 2019 12:55pm
tsdz2 it's capable to do 31mph but it's the maximum for the motor... i think to do this for 25miles it's a stress for the motor...
I just punched in my data into a bunch of online cycling speed/watt calculators. It looks like I need to maintain 600w for 31mph (49.6 km/h). If I contribute 125w easily that means I need only 475w from the motor. That is 300% assistance level. Maybe this is the limit of the motor... I don't know.

Can this motor sustain 475w for a long period of time?

At 52V that works out to be 9.13A at the motor. Assuming 83% efficiency I would need about 11A coming from the battery continuously. Let me know if any of my math is way off.

Note: I'd settle for 30mph if 31mph is not doable. That would shave off about 50 watts.

https://www.gribble.org/cycling/power_v_speed.html

Thanks.
That is too much for this motor in my humble opinion.
Edit: are you sure about your 20mph by yourself = only 125W?
You say that is the speed you can keep, that should be more than 250w from your legs??
350W for a sustained period is about the max for this motor, so if you pedal @250W you will have the needed 600W.
Last edited by knutselmaaster on Apr 29 2019 2:09pm, edited 2 times in total.

holophonic   10 µW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by holophonic » Apr 29 2019 3:42pm

knutselmaaster wrote:
Apr 29 2019 1:43pm
holophonic wrote:
Apr 29 2019 1:39pm
andrea_104kg wrote:
Apr 29 2019 12:55pm
tsdz2 it's capable to do 31mph but it's the maximum for the motor... i think to do this for 25miles it's a stress for the motor...
I just punched in my data into a bunch of online cycling speed/watt calculators. It looks like I need to maintain 600w for 31mph (49.6 km/h). If I contribute 125w easily that means I need only 475w from the motor. That is 300% assistance level. Maybe this is the limit of the motor... I don't know.

Can this motor sustain 475w for a long period of time?

At 52V that works out to be 9.13A at the motor. Assuming 83% efficiency I would need about 11A coming from the battery continuously. Let me know if any of my math is way off.

Note: I'd settle for 30mph if 31mph is not doable. That would shave off about 50 watts.

https://www.gribble.org/cycling/power_v_speed.html

Thanks.
That is too much for this motor in my humble opinion.
Edit: are you sure about your 20mph by yourself = only 125W?
You say that is the speed you can keep, that should be more than 250w from your legs??
350W for a sustained period is about the max for this motor, so if you pedal @250W you will have the needed 600W.
You are correct -
125w is about 125 bpm (aerobic fat burning zone) and roughly 17 mph
185w is about 145 bpm (not anaerobic threshold yet) and about 20 mph
I can do a 30 min time trial on my road bike at just under 25 mph with some rolling hills. Just above anaerobic threshold of course.
These are numbers that are typical of an Expert racer. The Pros are another level above.
I have 50mm carbon rims on my road bike. So there is that difference compared to the bike I'd like to build.

I was hoping to get a good bump in sustainable watts by using the TSDZ2 vs going the Bosch, Brose, or Shimano route.

Edit: So it sounds like the real world numbers would be 27mph easily, but 29.5 mph if I hammer. Wind resistance is proportional to speed cubed. If I'm spinning my legs 100rpm that means the motor is spinning fast as well and less likely to melt. Even at 52V... Right?

knutselmaaster   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by knutselmaaster » Apr 29 2019 4:43pm

Indeed, the efficiency of an electric motor is highest when it's spinning fast.
Also, the help of the motor when going through the "less easy to ride" parts of your trip will have you get less tired so that you will have more energy left to pedal through the easy parts faster than before (and thus asking less of the motor at these moments, so that it can cool down).
But if it will be enough...

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jbalat   10 kW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by jbalat » Apr 29 2019 7:07pm

If you are looking at spending $3K then you wouldn't use a TSDZ2 motor. Go for one of the Giant bikes.
Someone at my work bought one for $2800 + $250 for a chip and he does 50km/hr. I don't agree with him speeding but just saying you will be getting an awesome bike built for purpose with a motor that is capable of much more
https://ivanhoecycles.com.au/bicycle-bi ... 019)/10244
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Opensource TSDZ2 Wiki https://github.com/OpenSource-EBike-fir ... _wiki/wiki

sysrq   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by sysrq » Apr 29 2019 10:01pm

What could be this crackling noise coming from a secondary gear area which comes and goes? Recently getting louder.
https://youtu.be/cGKkUdP_HRE
Last edited by sysrq on Apr 30 2019 5:45am, edited 2 times in total.

casainho   1.21 GW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by casainho » Apr 30 2019 12:24am

TSDZ2 can sustain about 500W continuous if you ise a 52V battery.
Developer of the Flexible OpenSource firmware for EBike motor controllers (TSDZ2 and KT) and displays (Bafang 850C color, SW102 Bluetooth and KT-LCD3).

If you like my work, please consider making a donation. I am being using the donations to buy needed resources for my developments. My paypal: casainho AT gmail.com.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by csbike » Apr 30 2019 3:49am

hi,
I finally ordered a 36V TSDZ2 and it should arrive later this week or early next week. The battery however will arrive later. Can I still install the motor and ride without a battery with the motor off? Or will this damage the motor? Or will the motor create too much friction?

thanks

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by jbalat » Apr 30 2019 6:02am

csbike wrote:
Apr 30 2019 3:49am
hi,
I finally ordered a 36V TSDZ2 and it should arrive later this week or early next week. The battery however will arrive later. Can I still install the motor and ride without a battery with the motor off? Or will this damage the motor? Or will the motor create too much friction?

thanks
Too much friction
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hego   10 mW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by hego » Apr 30 2019 6:03am

My TSDZ2 not works properly. In the first seconds of activatión and spin the cranksarms the motor runs about 2-3 senconds and stop. ( Set or calibration?)

The walk assitence works well, but the main assistence dont make.

Is not a mechanic problem.

I see the configuration and it seems normal.

What I do wrong?

The versión is the 0.19.beta 6.

Any idea?

Thank´s

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Re: New Build using TSDZ2

Post by Retrorockit » Apr 30 2019 6:47am

holophonic wrote:
Apr 29 2019 12:20pm
I'm thinking about a new build using a Motobecane 2019 SRAM FORCE1 Disc Brake Reynolds 853 Steel Cross Bike.

Image


I would switch out the tires to 700C 40C with low rolling resistance -
Image

The motor would be FOS ready from these guys -
https://www.electrifybike.com/store/p113/TSDZ2.html#/


Looking at using their 52v 40-AMP 14Ah Shark II / Hailong I E-bike Battery as well -
https://www.electrifybike.com/store/p32 ... ttery.html#/

Some details so far:
Total cost would be around $3k. Bike would probably weigh around 37 lbs (16.8kg). Looks great on paper.

25 mile commute. I'm pretty aero and would wear a kit most of the time. Typically ride 20mph on flats without assist. I would like to ride the flats around 31mph with this setup while in the drops when no-head wind is present. Going up a couple short 6% hills at 19mph would be nice. I can typically do these around 13 mph. I like to spin around 100 rpm.

Questions:
1. Do these numbers (speed & distance) look about right?
2. Any compatibility issues with this build?
3. I would like to use pedals only... No throttle and no hydraulic brake interface. I've raced MTBs for years so not a fool, but is this setup excessively dangerous?
4. Any general things to be concerned about?

Thanks in advance!
Your obviously a much more experienced cyclist than I am. But I do ride short distances at 30 MPH here in the US (65 years old). Above about 25mph a suspension fork becomes more desirable for bike control. The lack of brake switches isn't an issue on a PAS bike w/o throttle. But if you're comfortable at 30 MPH on a rigid bike for extended periods that's up to you.
I own a TSDZ2, and a Bafang BBSHD.
The biggest difference is the BBSHD can produce full power continuosly due to better cooling. Of course it's large and heavy. I don't find the Torque Sensing feature to be a big deal compared to manually choosing an assist level while riding. A BBS02 could probably do what you want. But since the motor can run faster than the pedals brake switches are required.
Also The TSDZ2 cuts off power at 90rpm cadence unless you modify the motor. IDK if the firmware can change that or not. It seems like you're probably capable of more than that.
I would be looking at a Cyclocross bike with an offroad rated fork. The bike is going to be a lot heavier, and a lot faster than a regular bike. Strength, and control will be a bigger consideration. Especially on occasions when things don't go according to plan. I guess the hard part for you would be finding a bike that allows the aero position and has the strength and control needed. I can understand not wanting to lose your highly evolved riding position.
Rock Shox makes some 700c Paragon street forks that might be appropriate if you can find a bike with one of those.
I think the Motobecane TSDZ2 qould make a nice 25mph bike.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by hefest » Apr 30 2019 8:27am

Can someone tell me if there is a way to get the motor working on the bench with throttle?

I received tsdz2 48V 750W and would like to test it on the bench. VLDC5 display, brake connected to the left connector on the vldc5, throttle on the middle connector out of 3. Display is powering up but when I hit throttle nothing is happening. PSWpower, from which I purchased motor is stating in the description of the product that throttle works once you start moving with the bike. Is there any other way for me to test it without mounting it to the bicycle, because I'm far away from my bike?

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Uturn » Apr 30 2019 9:17am

motor working on the bench with throttle?
If it's programmed according european regulations you will need to turn the cranks too.
You might aswell put it into your bike to try it, normally they work.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by hefest » Apr 30 2019 9:21am

Uturn wrote:
Apr 30 2019 9:17am
motor working on the bench with throttle?
If it's programmed according european regulations you will need to turn the cranks too.
You might aswell put it into your bike to try it, normally they work.
The problem is I'm far away from home and I don't have bike here. Does it need cranks turned or is it reading speed sensor. I thought about tricking it with the dangling magnet in front of the speed sensor.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by holophonic » Apr 30 2019 10:38am

casainho wrote:
Apr 30 2019 12:24am
TSDZ2 can sustain about 500W continuous if you use a 52V battery.
That's encouraging. Do you know what crank speed keeps the motor in the sweet spot between max efficiency and sustainable power output when at 52V and using the open-source firmware? I know that's a little bit of a loaded question because ambient temperature affects how much heat can be shedded. And I'd drop it down a gear or two on hot days to decrease the motor power but still keep the high cadence.

The discussion back here is related but I'm not seeing the answer -
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... start=1975

Thanks. I'll do a build thread with findings if I move forward with this.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by csbike » Apr 30 2019 11:01am

If it doesn't damage the motor, I can still try it out as a training tool...
jbalat wrote:
Apr 30 2019 6:02am
csbike wrote:
Apr 30 2019 3:49am
hi,
I finally ordered a 36V TSDZ2 and it should arrive later this week or early next week. The battery however will arrive later. Can I still install the motor and ride without a battery with the motor off? Or will this damage the motor? Or will the motor create too much friction?

thanks
Too much friction

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Mike-P » Apr 30 2019 11:41am

Tried the next smaller wheel setting and it seems have fixed the overspeed displayed mph, 26 (inches) being the setting which is 660mm, i.e. a 700 wheel (622mm diameter) with an extra 38mm attributable to the tyres.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by hefest » Apr 30 2019 12:17pm

casainho wrote:
Apr 30 2019 12:24am
TSDZ2 can sustain about 500W continuous if you ise a 52V battery.
This means it can sustain 9.5-10A continuous, I'm guessing. With 48V nominal that would be 450-480W.

I've got 48V 750W from PSWpower, and it states in the description that it is 15A motor. Is there a difference between this one and the one people are mentioning here as 18A max?

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by feketehegyi » May 01 2019 1:23am

csbike wrote:
Apr 30 2019 11:01am
If it doesn't damage the motor, I can still try it out as a training tool...
jbalat wrote:
Apr 30 2019 6:02am
csbike wrote:
Apr 30 2019 3:49am
hi,
I finally ordered a 36V TSDZ2 and it should arrive later this week or early next week. The battery however will arrive later. Can I still install the motor and ride without a battery with the motor off? Or will this damage the motor? Or will the motor create too much friction?

thanks
Too much friction
It's hard to pedal it without battery. I was thinking before that maybe my unit is like so only, but our second motor is just like so.
However it's still interesting that let's say 8 turns are easy then comes 8 turns hard and then easy again then hard and so on.
Would be fine if it could work in freewheel mode as well. When the battery is empty to get without hard work to back.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by jbalat » May 01 2019 6:01am

Apparently the Brose motor used on the Specialised Levo has no drag when the motor is turned off
https://electrek.co/2018/07/05/shimano- ... ve-motors/

I wonder if there is something we can recommend for the next version of the tsdz2.

So I was running very low on power the other day on the way home from work (forgot to charge) and I set the max power to just 50w so I can make it home. I swear that I could actually feel the motor slowing me down, the drag was really pronounced almost as though I was fighting the rotating magnetic field but it just wouldn't let me.. I turned the motor off and somehow it did not feel as bad but still hard to get above 18 km/hr. I know it doesn't make sense since the sprag clutch should let you apply all your force directly to the front chainring ??

Actually if the motor speed was less than your peddle speed then just following the path from crank to sprag clutch you will be spinning the large rotor which will turn the small gear which in turn will be trying to turn the blue Nylon Gear. The blue gear does have a one way system too so I dont think you will be turning the motor itself, but all in all thats a lot of gears your are trying to turn.
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