New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Discussions related to motors other than hub motors.
This includes R/C motors, botttom bracket, roller and geared drives.
Retrorockit   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Retrorockit » Oct 31 2019 9:22am

[/quote]
I plan on doing 50 km on a daily base, and from watching this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YMQGmuYA6Vg&t=70s and seeing that in only 5000km i would encounter such problems is discouraging at least(meaning that in just 3 months i would have to make a major repair to the TSDZ2) ,i also read that in about that amount of km"s the Bagfangs mid drives controllers need changing and they are pretty expencive ,so the way i see it for commuting with small hills the way to go is hub,so i hope i made the better choice!
[/quote]

I think a hub motor will do what you want, and it's much simpler also. But quality varies greatly there also. Bafang makes hub motors too, but I have no experience with them.
The TSDZ2 is basically a 350w 20mph motor. It doesn't have the cooling capacity to reliably do much more than that. Buying a different controller and the parts to flash the firmware costs money also.
My approach is the only thing that costs more than doing it right the first time, is doing it right the 2nd time. This applies no matter what your budget level. As far as hubmotors breaking spokes? I'm pretty sure my BBSHD can cause some stress there also. Wheels up 3rd gear launches are "normal". I would ask questions about what brand of spokes are used. Good quality thin ones will stretch, cheap thick ones will break. One thing I look at in wheels is if there are no eyelets around the spokes in the rim, I assume corners are being cut elsewhere also.
It might be worthwhile to buy a bare hub and have a shop build your wheel for you. This way you will know exactly what you're getting.

valsam   10 mW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by valsam » Oct 31 2019 11:30am

My friend ,my car only needs a 20$ oil change after 20.000km!

bluesoc   1 µW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by bluesoc » Oct 31 2019 11:56am

valsam wrote:
Oct 31 2019 11:30am
My friend ,my car only needs a 20$ oil change after 20.000km!
I would buy that car immediately if that's the only maintenance it requires!

hub8   1 µW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by hub8 » Oct 31 2019 12:54pm

I'd like to thank casainho for making the following enjoyable.

Trek MT220 (24 inch tires, front suspension, hardtail) with 48V TSDZ2 and battery in dolphin case mounted under the downtube running v20 beta 1.

I wonder if casainho or anyone familiar with the code can tell me how the eMTB sensitivity level works? Does it act as a multiplier, i. e. torque on the pedal generated by rider x sensitivity level? Or act as a threshold, i.e., torque below a certain level will be ignored, so bike won't take off if you are at stop light and put your foot on the pedal (assuming brake not engaged). I suspect the latter, but then the question is what multiplier is used on human generated torque? Image

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valsam   10 mW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by valsam » Oct 31 2019 6:00pm

bluesoc wrote:
Oct 31 2019 11:56am
valsam wrote:
Oct 31 2019 11:30am
My friend ,my car only needs a 20$ oil change after 20.000km!
I would buy that car immediately if that's the only maintenance it requires!
Come on man you act like you don't know that most modern cars need just an oil change after 15,000 to 20.000km (witch i was talking about is a good in my opinion trouble free life span of any ebike motor!)and only after the other 15.000 -20.000 need the full 'expensive' service with spark plugs,valve inspection and so on!

hub8   1 µW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by hub8 » Oct 31 2019 10:08pm

Also, curious as to whether v20 will have startup boost at some point, or is it being replaced by torque mode.

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dahu33   1 mW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by dahu33 » Oct 31 2019 11:53pm

I've created the thread below a few days ago but I haven't got the traction I was expecting. If anyone own or previously owned both a TSDZ2 and a Q100 or Q128, I would love their opinion and feedback there.

TSDZ2 mid-drive vs Q100CST hub motor?

casainho   10 GW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by casainho » Nov 01 2019 12:05am

dahu33 wrote:
Oct 31 2019 11:53pm
I've created the thread below a few days ago but I haven't got the traction I was expecting. If anyone own or previously owned both a TSDZ2 and a Q100 or Q128, I would love their opinion and feedback there.

TSDZ2 mid-drive vs Q100CST hub motor?
I did own both that motors before changing to the mid drive motors with TSDZ2.

I even started the project of OpenSource firmware development for KT motor controllers and I used that same motors to be driven by that controllers with our firmware!! -- I mean, the firmware just for the same controller you are using in your ebike, the S06S. This firmware is still being maintained and developed by other developers and is popular, you can find a thread on this forum.

For me, TSDZ2 provides much more torque at startup because of low gears and much higher speed of high gears, using much less battery power, meaning a stronger and lighter ebike. Also, TSDZ2 includes the torque sensor while that motors do not, you will have to buy it as an extra and install, each is not so easy.

TSDZ2 is way better for the ones looking to go to mountains doing MTB as also using use the same ebike daily on the city and riding at 45 kms/h on flat roads as I do -- here them, full suspension, large tires and rear panniers for load:
Image

But yes, I do more maintenance with TSDZ2 but I guess that is because I do now much more than I did with that hub motors, that I couldn't do anyway with them.

I would love to also have a bike like that, I own a Brompton but I do not want to install a motor on it, so someday I will use another folding bike.

Another advantage of TSDZ2 running our OpenSource firmware is that you can easily configure for any battery size, meaning you can DIY a battery with the weight and size optimized for typical ride on your Dahon. And quick change to another battery for longer range if you need and configure on the fly on the display.
If your ebike is smaller, lighter and has no rear panniers as mine (and you do not weight as much as me 105kgs), then for sure you can have a smaller and light battery pack: mine is 14S3P (42x 18650 cells, 500Wh), so 52V but probably you can go with a 36V motor and 36V battery, 10S2P (20x 18650 cells, 225Wh), which would be about only 47% of the size and weight of mine.

About the sound, the recent versions of TSDZ2 on the market, are very silent due to some mechanical changes.
- TSDZ2 FAQ: issues and repairs, etc
- TSDZ2 OpenSource firmware

Developer of the Flexible OpenSource firmware for EBikes: TSDZ2 mid drive motor, KT motor controllers and displays: Bafang 850C color, SW102 Bluetooth and KT-LCD3.

If you like my work, please consider making a donation. I am being using the donations to buy needed resources for my developments. My paypal: casainho AT gmail.com.

valsam   10 mW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by valsam » Nov 01 2019 3:33am

Dear casainho you are basically telling us that the TSDZ2 running OpenSource firmware is a better choice in every aspect(more efficiant,more torque,better for mtbikking,better for commuting, ect)compared to hub motors such as the Q100 or Q128 but with the only negative that it needs needs more maintainance
(and realy how much will it hurt our pocket for the broken down parts for this maintanece?) ,but what if someone does not want to void his warranty and has to keep his tsdz2 with stock firmware for 1-2 years, how does a stock TSDZ2 compare to the above hub motors?
I am asking because if most of the above advantages that the TSDZ2 running OpenSource firmware has are not present in the stock firmware that the tsdz2 comes with(or even if the stock TSDZ2 has still some but small advantages compared to the hub motor) and you only get the more maintence part then that's another ball game my friend!
Last edited by valsam on Nov 01 2019 5:39am, edited 1 time in total.

casainho   10 GW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by casainho » Nov 01 2019 4:09am

valsam wrote:
Nov 01 2019 3:33am
Dear casainho you are basically telling us that the TSDZ2 running OpenSource firmware is a better choice in every aspect(more efficiant,more torque,better for mtbikking,better for commuting, ect)compared to hub motors such as the Q100 or Q128 but with the only negative that it needs needs more maintainance
(and realy how much will it hurt our pocket for the broken down parts for this maintanece?) ,but what if someone does not want to void his warranty and has to keep his tsdz2 with stock firmware for 1-2 years, how does a stock TSDZ2 compare to the above hub motors?
I am asking because if most of the above advantages that the TSDZ2 running OpenSource firmware has are not present in the stock firmware that the tsdz2 comes with(or even if the stock TSDZ2 has still some but small advantages ) compared to the hub motor and you only get the more maintence part then that's another ball game my friend!
As I also told, in my experience, I do much more maintenance, but because I take much more out of them.
I don't know how TSDZ2 behave running at 250W only, because I simple bought it I never used it before I had the very first of our firmware version working.

And don't forget the torque sensor, or maybe you may not value it.

I think is ok to go with that hub motors. Also I understand the question of price, you are from Greece and I am from Portugal, countries with economical hard living. That was also the reason I always decided to use cheap and popular Chinese technology, because is way cheap to develop for, buy and do the maintenance. I had to pay 4 ebikes for my family and I do their maintenance, so I also must be careful with costs. Anyway, over the years I am being taking a lot of of the ebikes, much about health and fitness, as also special family long trips and daily communintg trips to work, go shopping, beach, etc.

Please look at the KT firmware thread, there is lot of information about that cheap motor controllers paired with that cheap hub motors, and with optional torque sensor. And with all the flexibility of our OpenSource firmware.
- TSDZ2 FAQ: issues and repairs, etc
- TSDZ2 OpenSource firmware

Developer of the Flexible OpenSource firmware for EBikes: TSDZ2 mid drive motor, KT motor controllers and displays: Bafang 850C color, SW102 Bluetooth and KT-LCD3.

If you like my work, please consider making a donation. I am being using the donations to buy needed resources for my developments. My paypal: casainho AT gmail.com.

valsam   10 mW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by valsam » Nov 01 2019 5:44am

casainho =RESPECT! :thumb:
Wife needs one car,daughter needs the other (univercity student),not a chance of buying another,not even a small moped or motorcycle because of insuranse and road fees and services,so the only way of me having a cheap way of transportation was in my mind a 500W -750W conversion kit but a cheap an reliable one if possible!
Cheap is the tsdz2,little bit more expensive the bbs02,alot more the BBSHD,read about the burnt controllers even with the new mosfets that are over 120$ to buy read about snaping chains once every little and gave a pass on the Bafangs,saw that tsdz2 have there own problems with blue gear,torque sensors,sprang clutch,controllers,but with much lower cost in parts compared to the Bafangs but still adds up to a good sum of money if all af these happen every 5-6.000 km!
From the little that i have learned reading posts here and elsewhare (dont forget i am a noob!)i understand that a hub motor has limitations ,can't go MTBiking,and are less efficient with lower torque but they are damn cheap and pretty reliable compared to the above mid drives,so i ordered 3 more naylon gears (15$ all 3) and some lithium grease for just in case and hope that i can achieve that 10-20.000km lifespan!

((Sorry for this offtopic but by the way can anyone tell me if it is needed from me to open a geared hub motor to regrease every now and then,and if yes how many km should i make this inspection?))

joselinh   1 µW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by joselinh » Nov 01 2019 10:54am

ezrider1199 wrote:
Aug 08 2019 11:14am
Hi, I was trying to install an accessory front light (DIY) and seeing some strange stuff. When the LCD3 light is on, the accessory voltage is 2v however when LCD3 light is off the voltage is jumping around 6-9v. And when the LCD3 light is off, i plug in my light the voltage just drops to 0. Is this normal?? I'm pretty puzzled by this, especially since my light works fine via a bench power supply (tested 4-10v)...

The lights are dual LEDs that i had them wired in series at first and then in parallel. The series didnt work out because the first light was taking all the voltage i assume. But the parallel should work (tested via bench power supply). I hope i didnt mess anything up... rest of the bike works A+
Hi, something happen to my DIY lights. They works fine a couple of days, and then turn off.Maybe overcurrent.
Dont know how to repair it. Any fuse inside, some reset? any idea? Dont want to put an external switch!

casainho   10 GW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by casainho » Nov 01 2019 11:41am

valsam wrote:
Nov 01 2019 5:44am
From the little that i have learned reading posts here and elsewhare (dont forget i am a noob!)i understand that a hub motor has limitations ,can't go MTBiking,and are less efficient with lower torque but they are damn cheap and pretty reliable compared to the above mid drives,so i ordered 3 more naylon gears (15$ all 3) and some lithium grease for just in case and hope that i can achieve that 10-20.000km lifespan!
I were very happy with hub motors!! I am sure you will also will :-)

Anyway, both TSDZ2 and parts as also KT controllers and Q85 motors and parts, are the most cheap on the market, here an example:

Controller:
- 17 euros cost the 250W the KT motor controller that implements FOC, for hub motors, on PSWPower.com
- 27 euros cost the 750 watts the TSDZ2 motor controller (does not implement FOC on original firmware but we do on our firmware), on PSWPower.com

Motor:
- 90 euros cost the Q85 36V250W HUB MOTOR on BMSBattery.com
- 68 euros costs the TSDZ2 motor, on PSWPower.com

This was my very first ebike, in 2010, with the KT motor controller of 250W, Q85 front motor 24V 250W and PAS only:
Image

And this was my kid VERY HAPPY, only 2 years ago, testing for the first time his 18 inches wheel ebike with the Q85 front motor 24V 250W, with PAS and throttle:


My kid has now a MTB 20 inches ebike with TSDZ2, now he flies at 40 km/h and already does a bit of MTB, as also rides from home to home of the family.

I documented in Portuguese, the various hub motors and controllers I did use - use Google translator to understand:
- http://www.massacriticapt.net/?q=node/1213
- http://massacriticapt.net/?q=node/1441
- http://massacriticapt.net/?q=node/1470
- http://massacriticapt.net/?q=node/1610
- http://massacriticapt.net/?q=node/1620
- http://massacriticapt.net/?q=node/1647

And I can´t forget the HARD way I did learn, in 2012, that I would need torque arms to hold the motor axle in place and avoid break of the fork, them I moved to rear motors -- and by the way, mid drive motors don´t need torque arms, one less pair of pieces to buy and install:

Image
- TSDZ2 FAQ: issues and repairs, etc
- TSDZ2 OpenSource firmware

Developer of the Flexible OpenSource firmware for EBikes: TSDZ2 mid drive motor, KT motor controllers and displays: Bafang 850C color, SW102 Bluetooth and KT-LCD3.

If you like my work, please consider making a donation. I am being using the donations to buy needed resources for my developments. My paypal: casainho AT gmail.com.

casainho   10 GW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by casainho » Nov 01 2019 12:04pm

joselinh wrote:
Nov 01 2019 10:54am
Hi, something happen to my DIY lights. They works fine a couple of days, and then turn off.Maybe overcurrent.
Dont know how to repair it. Any fuse inside, some reset? any idea? Dont want to put an external switch!
It is very hard to repair parts of the motor controller. There a specific circuit to limit the current for the lights, maybe it burned. I would buy another motor controller to replace.
- TSDZ2 FAQ: issues and repairs, etc
- TSDZ2 OpenSource firmware

Developer of the Flexible OpenSource firmware for EBikes: TSDZ2 mid drive motor, KT motor controllers and displays: Bafang 850C color, SW102 Bluetooth and KT-LCD3.

If you like my work, please consider making a donation. I am being using the donations to buy needed resources for my developments. My paypal: casainho AT gmail.com.

joselinh   1 µW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by joselinh » Nov 02 2019 7:42am

casainho wrote:
Nov 01 2019 12:04pm
joselinh wrote:
Nov 01 2019 10:54am
Hi, something happen to my DIY lights. They works fine a couple of days, and then turn off.Maybe overcurrent.
Dont know how to repair it. Any fuse inside, some reset? any idea? Dont want to put an external switch!
It is very hard to repair parts of the motor controller. There a specific circuit to limit the current for the lights, maybe it burned. I would buy another motor controller to replace.
it has sense. I checked, and the whole controler costs only $35. Kind of sphisticated fuse. :D

Genesis Andy   100 µW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Genesis Andy » Nov 02 2019 1:09pm

I decided to use dynamo lights, just to separate the system in case battery went flat whilst out

famichiki   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by famichiki » Nov 02 2019 9:35pm

I have a 48V motor and just bought a 52V battery and intend to use the OpenSource firmware, but first I want to try it out with the factory firmware for comparison.

I understand that to use a fully charged 52V battery on my 48V motor I need to make some changes to the factory firmware.

The Eco Cycles website has a guide to modifying the factory firmware, but there's a note saying it's no longer recommended because "New/Alternate TSDZ2 Firmware versions can restrict changes from taking effect". Instead they recommend flashing one of their complete profiles.

https://www.eco-ebike.com/blogs/eco-cyc ... romscratch

Does anyone know exactly what the problem is with the old way now? Would it be just that the memory locations could be different?

Also they seem to only have one version of the 52V factory firmware for download, but should there be different versions for throttle/non-throttle?

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by mscoot » Nov 03 2019 5:31am

Open source firmware: Where do I begin?

I've been happily riding around with my stock 250W tsdz2 since 2016 and I've also been following this forum on and off out of curiosity for the open source firmware project. There's a lot of information in this thread to sort out for me, so I was hoping someone here could help me sum it all up.

Recently my xh-18 display stopped working properly. Everything looked normal, but I was unable top change power levels and the display seemed to choose an arbitrary max speed of ca 23 km/h. This was annoying so for the time beeing I have reverted to the old vlcd-5, but I'd rather like to try out the open source firmware and a new display.

For training and workouts I ride my road bike, but for my daily transport around town the Bullitt cargobike with the tsdz2 is what I use all year round. Because of mye road bike fascination, I tend to ride with a high cadence (80-100 rpm) and my tsdz2 isn't particularily good in that area. It seems the new firmware solves this issue.

Every now and then I also carry heavy loads up towards 100 kgs. I'm not expecting to be able to ride that sort of weight up a hill at any kind of speed, but the way the power is delivered from the tsdz2 (max somewhere around 80 rpm) means it doesn't match up with my own max power at around 100-105 rpm. The regular weight of the bike with the normal daily load is about 50-60 kgs plus my own 80 kgs. The low cadence on the motor also means I'm not as able to carry the speed over rolling hills the way I would on my road bike. I hope the open source firmware can help sort this out in a better way.

In stock form, the 250w motor is a little weak. I'm fine with that actually, but the annoying thing is the way max power drops off as the battery level goes down past 60%. If I understand this correctly, the open source firmware fixes this issue? As it is now I usually regard the battery as empty as soon as I'm below 50% charge which gives my approx 500 wh battery a range of a measly 30 km. Of course, the battery isn't empty, but power drops off too much for the motor to be of much use. This is worse during winter than in the summer, of course.

I see quite a few places recommending adding the temp sensor. Since my bike is heavy and I like to ride as fast as possible I suppose adding one would be smart. However, do I need a special controller for this? I only have the stock 36v controller that came with the motor in 2016.

Now, trying to wrap my head around the installation procedure, I think I have come to realize that I'd rather pay for a new controller and display with everything installed. Would this be a sensible way of doing this or are there other good reasons to install and flash it myself?

I can buy an 850c display locally (I like supporting my local (e)bike shop). Perhaps even some of the cables and wires can be sourced there if needed.
I don't have a windows-pc, but my flat is full of apple-computers. Is this a problem? Can I perform the installation and firmware flashing with an apple computer? Years ago I used a gimbal for an RC-drone that need firmware updates through a windows program I ran through some sort of emulator on the Mac. Does any one here know if this sort of thing still works?
I'm a little afraid of bricking the whole motor during this procedure in case something goes wrong. Will there be any way of resetting or reverting to the old firmware at a later stage?

Thanks for any help or information.

casainho   10 GW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by casainho » Nov 03 2019 7:09am

mscoot wrote:
Nov 03 2019 5:31am
Open source firmware: Where do I begin?

I've been happily riding around with my stock 250W tsdz2 since 2016 and I've also been following this forum on and off out of curiosity for the open source firmware project. There's a lot of information in this thread to sort out for me, so I was hoping someone here could help me sum it all up.

Recently my xh-18 display stopped working properly. Everything looked normal, but I was unable top change power levels and the display seemed to choose an arbitrary max speed of ca 23 km/h. This was annoying so for the time beeing I have reverted to the old vlcd-5, but I'd rather like to try out the open source firmware and a new display.

For training and workouts I ride my road bike, but for my daily transport around town the Bullitt cargobike with the tsdz2 is what I use all year round. Because of mye road bike fascination, I tend to ride with a high cadence (80-100 rpm) and my tsdz2 isn't particularily good in that area. It seems the new firmware solves this issue.

Every now and then I also carry heavy loads up towards 100 kgs. I'm not expecting to be able to ride that sort of weight up a hill at any kind of speed, but the way the power is delivered from the tsdz2 (max somewhere around 80 rpm) means it doesn't match up with my own max power at around 100-105 rpm. The regular weight of the bike with the normal daily load is about 50-60 kgs plus my own 80 kgs. The low cadence on the motor also means I'm not as able to carry the speed over rolling hills the way I would on my road bike. I hope the open source firmware can help sort this out in a better way.

In stock form, the 250w motor is a little weak. I'm fine with that actually, but the annoying thing is the way max power drops off as the battery level goes down past 60%. If I understand this correctly, the open source firmware fixes this issue? As it is now I usually regard the battery as empty as soon as I'm below 50% charge which gives my approx 500 wh battery a range of a measly 30 km. Of course, the battery isn't empty, but power drops off too much for the motor to be of much use. This is worse during winter than in the summer, of course.

I see quite a few places recommending adding the temp sensor. Since my bike is heavy and I like to ride as fast as possible I suppose adding one would be smart. However, do I need a special controller for this? I only have the stock 36v controller that came with the motor in 2016.

Now, trying to wrap my head around the installation procedure, I think I have come to realize that I'd rather pay for a new controller and display with everything installed. Would this be a sensible way of doing this or are there other good reasons to install and flash it myself?

I can buy an 850c display locally (I like supporting my local (e)bike shop). Perhaps even some of the cables and wires can be sourced there if needed.
I don't have a windows-pc, but my flat is full of apple-computers. Is this a problem? Can I perform the installation and firmware flashing with an apple computer? Years ago I used a gimbal for an RC-drone that need firmware updates through a windows program I ran through some sort of emulator on the Mac. Does any one here know if this sort of thing still works?
I'm a little afraid of bricking the whole motor during this procedure in case something goes wrong. Will there be any way of resetting or reverting to the old firmware at a later stage?

Thanks for any help or information.
I am just waiting to be a father again and then have a reason to justify buy a Bullitt cargo bike like yours and also put TSDZ2 in it!!

Go to the wiki and read it, the information there is much more structured. Also go to the shops point there that sell TSDZ2 and displays with our OpenSource already installed, they have very good documentation on what are the advanced features, and trust them as this shops are runs by very experienced guys and they know what they say.

Good luck and enjoy riding your bicycles :-)
- TSDZ2 FAQ: issues and repairs, etc
- TSDZ2 OpenSource firmware

Developer of the Flexible OpenSource firmware for EBikes: TSDZ2 mid drive motor, KT motor controllers and displays: Bafang 850C color, SW102 Bluetooth and KT-LCD3.

If you like my work, please consider making a donation. I am being using the donations to buy needed resources for my developments. My paypal: casainho AT gmail.com.

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eyebyesickle   10 kW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by eyebyesickle » Nov 03 2019 11:16am

famichiki wrote:
Nov 02 2019 9:35pm
I have a 48V motor and just bought a 52V battery and intend to use the OpenSource firmware, but first I want to try it out with the factory firmware for comparison.

I understand that to use a fully charged 52V battery on my 48V motor I need to make some changes to the factory firmware.

The Eco Cycles website has a guide to modifying the factory firmware, but there's a note saying it's no longer recommended because "New/Alternate TSDZ2 Firmware versions can restrict changes from taking effect". Instead they recommend flashing one of their complete profiles.

https://www.eco-ebike.com/blogs/eco-cyc ... romscratch

Does anyone know exactly what the problem is with the old way now? Would it be just that the memory locations could be different?

Also they seem to only have one version of the 52V factory firmware for download, but should there be different versions for throttle/non-throttle?
The 52v profile works with or without a throttle, on 6 pin or 8 pin systems, FYI

Genesis Andy   100 µW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Genesis Andy » Nov 03 2019 1:37pm

I bought my TSDZ2 kit preprogrammed with open firmware V 18.2 I believe. What improvements is there over my version and the 20. ?

Im perfectly happy with the way the motor works and the settings I've adjusted. The bike is running a 52V battery.

If in the future I have a motor controller failure will I be able to install 18.2 or will I have to install V20 or whatever it is then. Also does the display need upgrading too?

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by windburner » Nov 03 2019 2:52pm

famichiki wrote:
Nov 02 2019 9:35pm
I have a 48V motor and just bought a 52V battery and intend to use the OpenSource firmware, but first I want to try it out with the factory firmware for comparison.

I understand that to use a fully charged 52V battery on my 48V motor I need to make some changes to the factory firmware.

The Eco Cycles website has a guide to modifying the factory firmware, but there's a note saying it's no longer recommended because "New/Alternate TSDZ2 Firmware versions can restrict changes from taking effect". Instead they recommend flashing one of their complete profiles.

https://www.eco-ebike.com/blogs/eco-cyc ... romscratch

Does anyone know exactly what the problem is with the old way now? Would it be just that the memory locations could be different?

Also they seem to only have one version of the 52V factory firmware for download, but should there be different versions for throttle/non-throttle?
I purchased a 750W 48V TSDZ and a 48V battery (which charges to 54.6V), and encountered the well reported overvoltage response from the TSDZ2. I tried the 52V factory firmware (FF) from the site. It solved the overvoltage response! For the Eco-Cycles memory programming, I found that the system voltage setting (memory location) only reflected in a more appropriate charge indicator, but had no affect on drive output. Also, changes to the max amps setting had zero affect.

However, in actual practice, I found that the 52V FF provided lower power output (on the big hill I have to climb just before home base) as compared to the original 48V FF as installed (I saved it before re-flashing). I clamped on an amp meter and took both for a ride, and found that to be the case. I don't recall the exact numbers, but the 52V FF limited itself to a peak around 12 amps, while the original 48V FF peaked near 14 amps. I was quite surprised. It I remember correctly, the checksum of the 48V FF from the site repository matches the checksum of my saved original FF, so they seem to be the same, but I did not do a road test.

The v0.19.0 Flexible OSF also eliminated the overvoltage issue, and offers lots of settings to tune, while adding a lag to the pedal assist onset, but, I hear that v0.20.0 is better. My SW102 display supports v19, but I hear that v20 support is in the works. :wink:
TerraTrike Rover Tandem - TSDZ2 48V 750W - 13AH Batteries - VLCD6-->SW102/v0.6.8 OSF-->VLCD6 -->XH18

mctubster   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by mctubster » Nov 03 2019 5:43pm

Genesis Andy wrote:
Nov 03 2019 1:37pm
I bought my TSDZ2 kit preprogrammed with open firmware V 18.2 I believe. What improvements is there over my version and the 20. ?

Im perfectly happy with the way the motor works and the settings I've adjusted. The bike is running a 52V battery.

If in the future I have a motor controller failure will I be able to install 18.2 or will I have to install V20 or whatever it is then. Also does the display need upgrading too?
You will be able to install the old version or the new version - yes the display and motor controller need to be on the same version

Changelog from the stable 0.19.0 to 0.20.0 beta 1 (LCD3 display only)

- Smoother motor torque control
- Overall faster acceleration, much more responsive and more adjustable/customizable
- Named the previous riding mode Power Assist
- Introduced Torque Assist, Cadence Assist and eMBT Assist
- A new automatic calibration process for the cadence sensor
- A new Advanced Mode for the cadence sensor with quicker response times
- A new light mode configuration where users can choose to enable/disable/remember light state through a power cycle
- External light configuration where users can configure the lights to flash, brake-flash when braking and much more!
- Startup without pedal rotation now with adjustable torque threshold
- Improved the KT-LCD3 firmware and updated it to be able to communicate with the new 0.20.0 motor controller firmware
- Added an adjustable button debounce timer for Walk Assist.
- Added a slight button debounce timer for Cruise
- Improved Walk Assist with soft-start
- Improved Walk Assist and Cruise safety
- Cruise much smoother and accurate
- More customizable Street Mode
- Smoother motor control to prolong life of the blue and metal gear
- Brakes now immediately disable the motor
- TSDZ2 coaster brake version can enable system braking by applying backwards torque
- More error codes/states that make the firmware safer to use and protects the hardware
- Higher resolution on the torque sensor output and increased operating range
- Better system calibration during startup
- Adjustable ADC torque conversion for accurate human power in the operating range of the TSDZ2 torque sensor
- Much more accurate data displayed on the KT-LCD3 with a new highly adjustable filter
- Better filtering used in the motor controller firmware
- Improved EEPROM controller
- EEPROM "Reset to defaults" and other functions now operate as intended
- New and improved wheel speed sensor and cadence sensor code
- Improved ADC conversion accuracy for current, voltage and therefore wattage and watt-hour measurements
- Changed and simplified configuration menu (KT-LCD3)
- Added new symbols for readability (KT-LCD3)
- Solved bugs with the TSDZ2 Coaster Brake version
- Backwards motor rotation is now detected and displayed as 0 ERPS
- System changes responsiveness depending on wheel speed
- Extensive refactoring throughout the entire system
- Simplified code for future development and display support, highly modular
- And much more... See the 0.20.0 wiki for even more information!

Wiki:
https://github.com/OpenSource-EBike-fir ... %7C-Manual

mctubster   100 W

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Posts: 231
Joined: Feb 26 2018 6:21am

Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by mctubster » Nov 03 2019 6:00pm

mscoot wrote:
Nov 03 2019 5:31am
Open source firmware: Where do I begin?

I've been happily riding around with my stock 250W tsdz2 since 2016 and I've also been following this forum on and off out of curiosity for the open source firmware project. There's a lot of information in this thread to sort out for me, so I was hoping someone here could help me sum it all up.

Recently my xh-18 display stopped working properly. Everything looked normal, but I was unable top change power levels and the display seemed to choose an arbitrary max speed of ca 23 km/h. This was annoying so for the time beeing I have reverted to the old vlcd-5, but I'd rather like to try out the open source firmware and a new display.

For training and workouts I ride my road bike, but for my daily transport around town the Bullitt cargobike with the tsdz2 is what I use all year round. Because of mye road bike fascination, I tend to ride with a high cadence (80-100 rpm) and my tsdz2 isn't particularily good in that area. It seems the new firmware solves this issue.
I ride a Gazelle Cabby cargo bike with the TSDZ2 running 0.20 beta1. Bike is 45KG, cargo (kids + stuff) 50KG's ish + me

I like higher cadence, maybe not as high as you. With a flat battery (35V) I get 150-200W of power at 90RPM. There is a high cadence mode that may also help. Unfortunately you won't get max power (say 35V*16A = 500W+) at this battery level. Suggest you try high cadence mode or hotrod and run a higher battery voltage
mscoot wrote:
Nov 03 2019 5:31am

I see quite a few places recommending adding the temp sensor. Since my bike is heavy and I like to ride as fast as possible I suppose adding one would be smart. However, do I need a special controller for this? I only have the stock 36v controller that came with the motor in 2016.
I just installed the temp sensor. If your controller is 8 wire and has the throttle option it is simplier to install. If not you will need to solder some wires to the controller to enable.
mscoot wrote:
Nov 03 2019 5:31am

Now, trying to wrap my head around the installation procedure, I think I have come to realize that I'd rather pay for a new controller and display with everything installed. Would this be a sensible way of doing this or are there other good reasons to install and flash it myself?
Swapping the controller (in the motor) means a fair amount of dismantling. For me simpler to flash the existing. Ryan on the forum here (https://www.electrifybike.com/) may be able to assist for pre-programmed controllers and displays.

famichiki   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by famichiki » Nov 03 2019 9:08pm

windburner wrote:
Nov 03 2019 2:52pm
I purchased a 750W 48V TSDZ and a 48V battery (which charges to 54.6V), and encountered the well reported overvoltage response from the TSDZ2...
Thanks for the very detailed info! :bigthumb:

I didn't consider that even the 48V versions could have the same issue.

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