New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

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casainho   10 GW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by casainho » Dec 06 2019 6:18am

Waynemarlow wrote:
Dec 06 2019 5:43am
Casainho.

Can I bring your attention to Blevo
https://apps.apple.com/gb/app/blevo-for ... 1293644903
https://www.emtbforums.com/community/th ... hread.806/

which is exactly already doing what you are asking about. Its a very mature product and in some ways your wife would be just recreating the wheel.

Wouldn't it be far better for her to learn how to integrate the TSDZ2 via bluetooth to this App ?
Thanks.

That app is closed source so the only possibility is the author to make it compatible with TSDZ2 and SW102 running our firmwares. As that may never happen, we need to take care of ourselves, we need to make our own tools, our own app.
- TSDZ2 FAQ: issues and repairs, etc
- TSDZ2 OpenSource firmware

Developer of the Flexible OpenSource firmware for EBikes: TSDZ2 mid drive motor, KT motor controllers and displays: Bafang 850C color, SW102 Bluetooth and KT-LCD3.

If you like my work, please consider making a donation. I am being using the donations to buy needed resources for my developments. My paypal: casainho AT gmail.com.

Waynemarlow   1 kW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Waynemarlow » Dec 06 2019 6:50am

casainho wrote:
Dec 06 2019 6:18am
That app is closed source so the only possibility is the author to make it compatible with TSDZ2 and SW102 running our firmwares. As that may never happen, we need to take care of ourselves, we need to make our own tools, our own app.
Isn't the easiest way in this instance is to simply mimic the Brose controller by converting the TSDZ2 control program instructions to the Brose equivalent, to make the Blevo program think its controlling a Brose motor rather than TSDZ2.

The use of the SW102 as the main interface and then optionally when needed, Blevo on an Iphone or android would seem really really logical to me.

obcd   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by obcd » Dec 06 2019 7:38am

Is the protocol between the blevo program and the brose controller somewhere documented?
I would also prefer an open source solution as it has no limitations.
If there is something you don't like you can tweak (program) it yourself.
So in the beginning, yes, you will reinvent the wheel, but once the framework is ready you can decide if a round wheel is really what you need. It doesn't mind looking at some existing wheels to see how they are used and if you really need them for your ride.

Brlowe   100 mW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Brlowe » Dec 06 2019 12:12pm

So with these changes coming and the new SW102 display is there any wireless buttons to control the TSDZ2 controller?
I want to have my display mounted out front and just have some push buttons near my hand. I know I can do this wired but would like a wireless solution.

Thanks

Mike-P   100 mW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Mike-P » Dec 06 2019 3:45pm

My VLCD5 display played up today giving a speed of 0.0mph and an indication of :lowbatt: ; towards end of this mornings commute it did come to life. Back home this evening after powering it off and on a few times did started show accurate reading. It has been very cold recently and last night was the first non almost freezing night for some time so could be moisture?

casainho   10 GW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by casainho » Dec 07 2019 4:02pm

Motor slipping

I have a strange issue with my TSDZ2, when low RPM/Cadence like at startup and when I have high assist level and I press hard the pedals, I ear a strange noise of the motor and I can see on the display that motor speed increases very fast although the cadence is low, and it makes that noise -- it seems motor is slipping somewhere but I did not found yet were nor I ever saw someone reporting this issue.

What I did until but was no solution:
1. looked at the blue gear and it seems good also I replaced it recently
2. exchange the main gear for a new one as I though the slipping could be on the main gear clutch/bearing
3. replaced the motor (because of other issue)

What can be the issue??

Can someone explain how the blue/brass gear fix/is bonded to the pinion?? could the issue be here??

Image
- TSDZ2 FAQ: issues and repairs, etc
- TSDZ2 OpenSource firmware

Developer of the Flexible OpenSource firmware for EBikes: TSDZ2 mid drive motor, KT motor controllers and displays: Bafang 850C color, SW102 Bluetooth and KT-LCD3.

If you like my work, please consider making a donation. I am being using the donations to buy needed resources for my developments. My paypal: casainho AT gmail.com.

flufferty   100 mW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by flufferty » Dec 07 2019 4:40pm

casainho wrote:
Dec 07 2019 4:02pm
Motor slipping
What can be the issue??
Can someone explain how the blue/brass gear fix/is bonded to the pinion?? could the issue be here??
I have had the same problem, I think. In colder weather the hf1216 bearing (inside blue gear) actually slipped against the blue gear inner shell. So I hammered it out (very easy). I then used some loctite retaining compound and re-mounted it. After this I've had no slippage.
bluegear-slippage.png
bluegear-slippage.png (201.29 KiB) Viewed 1695 times

famichiki   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by famichiki » Dec 07 2019 5:59pm

casainho wrote:
Dec 07 2019 4:02pm
Motor slipping

I have a strange issue with my TSDZ2, when low RPM/Cadence like at startup and when I have high assist level and I press hard the pedals, I ear a strange noise of the motor and I can see on the display that motor speed increases very fast although the cadence is low, and it makes that noise -- it seems motor is slipping somewhere but I did not found yet were nor I ever saw someone reporting this issue.
I wonder if this is related to the ZZZzzz sound that happens when I sometimes get the kick/shunt of power a couple of seconds after stopping pedalling. Usually after high cadence. It sounds like the motor spinning quickly inside but not able to transfer the power properly. Often I am braking at that time too. I have not had it slip during pedalling though.

dameri   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by dameri » Dec 08 2019 4:42am

flufferty wrote:
Dec 07 2019 4:40pm

I have had the same problem, I think. In colder weather the hf1216 bearing (inside blue gear) actually slipped against the blue gear inner shell. So I hammered it out (very easy). I then used some loctite retaining compound and re-mounted it. After this I've had no slippage.

bluegear-slippage.png
Good information. Thanks for sharing. I have had also slipping problem and having not found reason.

casainho   10 GW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by casainho » Dec 08 2019 5:29am

flufferty wrote:
Dec 07 2019 4:40pm
casainho wrote:
Dec 07 2019 4:02pm
Motor slipping
What can be the issue??
Can someone explain how the blue/brass gear fix/is bonded to the pinion?? could the issue be here??
I have had the same problem, I think. In colder weather the hf1216 bearing (inside blue gear) actually slipped against the blue gear inner shell. So I hammered it out (very easy). I then used some loctite retaining compound and re-mounted it. After this I've had no slippage.
Thanks!! I will look at it and exchange for a new one blue gear I have in stock.

What is really "expensive" is on this issue is the diagnosis, to find the solution for this issue!! I never tough it could be the blue gear, as I inspected it and I could not see nothing with my eyes.
Replace for a new gear is not that expensive as it costs about 15 euros. Also the solution to repair it, with the loctite glue can be even cheaper.

If my issue is this, I will update the wiki TSDZ2 FAQ with this information so it will be easier for the others to diagnose this issue.

Also, what could be origin reason for this fail of the blue gear?? -- I link this issue when some weeks ago I was doing 4h of MTB always under rain and with a LOT of mud, my chain skipped and the chain wheel got blocked and the motor did the noise in a big way... the stress was so big that the quick link of the chain got damaged and I had to replace it on the local.
- TSDZ2 FAQ: issues and repairs, etc
- TSDZ2 OpenSource firmware

Developer of the Flexible OpenSource firmware for EBikes: TSDZ2 mid drive motor, KT motor controllers and displays: Bafang 850C color, SW102 Bluetooth and KT-LCD3.

If you like my work, please consider making a donation. I am being using the donations to buy needed resources for my developments. My paypal: casainho AT gmail.com.

Elinx   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Elinx » Dec 08 2019 8:00am

Could it be that slipping of that blue gear could be a feature too, to save the blue gear if there is too much stress on it?

flufferty   100 mW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by flufferty » Dec 08 2019 8:11am

Elinx wrote:
Dec 08 2019 8:00am
Could it be that slipping of that blue gear could be a feature too, to save the blue gear if there is too much stress on it?
I don't think so, if it is, it's only made for > 0 celsius. Because I only had trouble with it during -10 celsius or colder, and it would slip with minimal torque as well, even going downhill.. :)

casainho   10 GW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by casainho » Dec 08 2019 8:32am

flufferty wrote:
Dec 07 2019 4:40pm
casainho wrote:
Dec 07 2019 4:02pm
Motor slipping
What can be the issue??
Can someone explain how the blue/brass gear fix/is bonded to the pinion?? could the issue be here??
I have had the same problem, I think. In colder weather the hf1216 bearing (inside blue gear) actually slipped against the blue gear inner shell. So I hammered it out (very easy). I then used some loctite retaining compound and re-mounted it. After this I've had no slippage.
Yes!!! I replaced the blue gear for a new one and finally a have my ebike back running as I love :-)

I created a section wiki TSDZ2 FAQ with title: Known issues, how to repair and possible causes, where I put notes for the blue gear issues.

The inner bearing of the blue gear was very easy to take out but inspecting, I could not see any damaged on the plastic part of the gear... but exchanging for a new gear was the solution...

Image

Pictures I took:

Image

Image
- TSDZ2 FAQ: issues and repairs, etc
- TSDZ2 OpenSource firmware

Developer of the Flexible OpenSource firmware for EBikes: TSDZ2 mid drive motor, KT motor controllers and displays: Bafang 850C color, SW102 Bluetooth and KT-LCD3.

If you like my work, please consider making a donation. I am being using the donations to buy needed resources for my developments. My paypal: casainho AT gmail.com.

knutselmaaster   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by knutselmaaster » Dec 08 2019 10:13am

Metal has a bigger expansion under temperature change than plastic.
If the bearing was any bigger (or the gear smaller) the gear would crack when the motor gets hot.
Disadvantage is that it will slip when it gets very cold.
I think the glue will crack too if it hardens a lot, as it has no expansion under temperature changes.
One should use some king of flexible glue compound.

Retrorockit   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Retrorockit » Dec 08 2019 10:23am

knutselmaaster wrote:
Dec 08 2019 10:13am
Metal has a bigger expansion under temperature change than plastic.
If the bearing was any bigger (or the gear smaller) the gear would crack when the motor gets hot.
Disadvantage is that it will slip when it gets very cold.
I think the glue will crack too if it hardens a lot, as it has no expansion under temperature changes.
One should use some king of flexible glue compound.
Loctite makes several products for this purpose. Loctite Bearing Mount. Different strength, and gap filling properties. Henkel and Permatex have similar products also.
When pressing the bearing out you should support the metal sleeve in the blue gear so it doesn't move. Usually when doing this you can find a couple of sockets that will fit the bearing, and support the gear and use a vise to press them apart.

NexusG   10 mW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by NexusG » Dec 08 2019 11:19am

I had this slipping issue last summer, although I had a brass gear and the temperature was pretty hot !

I don't know if it's the same origin of the problem... now, no more slipping issue but a metallic clicking noise under load

knutselmaaster   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by knutselmaaster » Dec 08 2019 1:06pm

Retrorockit wrote:
Dec 08 2019 10:23am
knutselmaaster wrote:
Dec 08 2019 10:13am
Metal has a bigger expansion under temperature change than plastic.
If the bearing was any bigger (or the gear smaller) the gear would crack when the motor gets hot.
Disadvantage is that it will slip when it gets very cold.
I think the glue will crack too if it hardens a lot, as it has no expansion under temperature changes.
One should use some king of flexible glue compound.
Loctite makes several products for this purpose. Loctite Bearing Mount. Different strength, and gap filling properties. Henkel and Permatex have similar products also.
When pressing the bearing out you should support the metal sleeve in the blue gear so it doesn't move. Usually when doing this you can find a couple of sockets that will fit the bearing, and support the gear and use a vise to press them apart.
Yes, there are several products that can do the job.
One needs to be very careful though to choose the right one.
The regular loctite bearing mount won't do the job (forgot the number, it's the transparent green one that smells sweet) because it hardens too much.
It will brake off in small very hard bits that will transform the grease into an abrasive material, causing the blue gear to wear incredibly fast.
Be very careful advising these kind of products and be precise (loctite number).
If it solves the slipping problem after applying it, it doesn't mean that it will be durable and that it doesn't do more harm than it does good in the long run.
@cassainho, in my humble opinion you shouldn't add this to the wiki without thorough testing and examination after 1000+ km of use in all temperatures.

NexusG   10 mW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by NexusG » Dec 08 2019 6:00pm

Is neoprene glue adequate? It will have some sort of flexibility

andrea_104kg   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by andrea_104kg » Dec 08 2019 6:04pm

I had the same slip problem 2 years ago when I used tsdz2 with a step-up and it had peaks of 900w. I replaced the blue gear and the problems disappeared, but I never understood what they were due to, since the gear looked new ... thanks for the explanation!

knutselmaaster   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by knutselmaaster » Dec 08 2019 7:54pm

NexusG wrote:
Dec 08 2019 6:00pm
Is neoprene glue adequate? It will have some sort of flexibility
I don't know how it will react to the components in the grease.
The problem with neoprene glue is that it needs to be applied to both surfaces and dry a bit before making contact. This will give a thick layer that won't fit in the very tiny space between the bearing and the gear.
If you could manage to press the bearing in, it would scrape off the glue.
Besides that, the thickness of the glue layer will probably be uneven, making the gear "wobble", causing noise and uneven wear.
If you look at the price of special "industrial" glue products, I think it will be cheaper to simply replace the blue gear...

Retrorockit   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Retrorockit » Dec 09 2019 12:12pm

knutselmaaster wrote:
Dec 08 2019 1:06pm
Retrorockit wrote:
Dec 08 2019 10:23am
knutselmaaster wrote:
Dec 08 2019 10:13am
Metal has a bigger expansion under temperature change than plastic.
If the bearing was any bigger (or the gear smaller) the gear would crack when the motor gets hot.
Disadvantage is that it will slip when it gets very cold.
I think the glue will crack too if it hardens a lot, as it has no expansion under temperature changes.
One should use some king of flexible glue compound.
Loctite makes several products for this purpose. Loctite Bearing Mount. Different strength, and gap filling properties. Henkel and Permatex have similar products also.
When pressing the bearing out you should support the metal sleeve in the blue gear so it doesn't move. Usually when doing this you can find a couple of sockets that will fit the bearing, and support the gear and use a vise to press them apart.
Yes, there are several products that can do the job.
One needs to be very careful though to choose the right one.
The regular loctite bearing mount won't do the job (forgot the number, it's the transparent green one that smells sweet) because it hardens too much.
It will brake off in small very hard bits that will transform the grease into an abrasive material, causing the blue gear to wear incredibly fast.
Be very careful advising these kind of products and be precise (loctite number).
If it solves the slipping problem after applying it, it doesn't mean that it will be durable and that it doesn't do more harm than it does good in the long run.
@cassainho, in my humble opinion you shouldn't add this to the wiki without thorough testing and examination after 1000+ km of use in all temperatures.
You criticise me for not giving a specific part number for the products I suggested. You pointed out a possible problem with some of them. But then didn't give any specific solution of your own?
Superglue makes a rubberized gel type cement that has strong grip and remains flexible. Maybe that would work. I think it comes down to the plastic gear beaing a bad idea. The Loctite bearing mount would probably work just fine with metal parts that don't change shape under load.
https://www.loctiteproducts.com/en/prod ... ntrol.html

knutselmaaster   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by knutselmaaster » Dec 09 2019 12:37pm

No I don't criticise, I share my (long) experience with these kind of things because I want to help.
And no I don't have the solution; as I mentioned it will need thorough long term testing and I'm not doing that, the problem didn't occur on my clients bikes nor on my own in the first place.

The bearing compound is for a bearing in a metal housing, where the expansion will be quite similar in both parts, so probably not suitable...

hego   10 mW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by hego » Dec 09 2019 12:50pm

There is any doc about the SW102 display configurations?
I can´t find it.
Cheers

Retrorockit   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Retrorockit » Dec 09 2019 1:27pm

knutselmaaster wrote:
Dec 09 2019 12:37pm
No I don't criticise, I share my (long) experience with these kind of things because I want to help.
And no I don't have the solution; as I mentioned it will need thorough long term testing and I'm not doing that, the problem didn't occur on my clients bikes nor on my own in the first place.

The bearing compound is for a bearing in a metal housing, where the expansion will be quite similar in both parts, so probably not suitable...
I'm seeing the problem differently than what's shown here. The "bearing" HF1216 isn't a bearing, its a roller clutch. The metal splined shell isn't part of HF1216.
https://www.amazon.com/10Pcs-HF1216-Nee ... B01EMZ2RLI
I doubt that the splined joint is what's slipping. IF the "bearing" is spinning in it's bore then that's a metal to metal seam, and bearing mount would fix it. But only if you pressed the bearing out of the splined sleeve and left the sleeve in the plastic gear. Then the Loctite would be going into a metal to metal situation. It's possible that the lubricant is getting too thick at low temperatures to allow the roller clutch to function properly. With a metal gear you would have a better choice of lubicants to use there.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by knutselmaaster » Dec 09 2019 1:48pm

Indeed, you're absolutely right.
There are other explanations that can explain why this happens especially at very low temperature.
The thick grease preventing the one way bearing to lock in is quite possible, and should be easy to identify:
If it only slips at the moment the lock should start (axle rotation direction change) this would be a plausible explanation.
If it slips when the one way bearing has already locked (for example in the middle of an acceleration) it is probably the one way bearing slipping in the splined sleeve or the sleeve slipping in the gear.

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