New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

[famichiki]

The wires I used came off an ancient ATX computer power supply, so... "ancient computer power supply size". No idea what size exactly it was, but they looked about the same size as original. The problem I had was something other than my wire extension, and no issues with it since. (I haven't opened it to check for potential meltedness, but I also run mine limited to 350w). I also did it to be able to check / replace the gear more easily, since I do longer trips with it.

If I were to do it again i'd use some kind of connector, the mr30 or other xt60 style three pins ones look nice. With the direct soldered wires, if the motor falls off the bike while pulled out, it will rip the wire out.

I've ordered both the 3-pin flat MR30 and triangular MT30 connectors to see which fits best. The MT60 looks pretty big and I don't think there's enough room inside the housing for it. The 30s are supposed to be rated for a continuous 30amp, and given the motor wiring is only 16AWG this should be fine even if overstated. The largest wire the 30s will take is 16AWG.

[vshitikov]

For future reference (or to help a newbie like me).
E03 Error (LCD05 with Marcoq Fw, based on Casainho work) - Today when i wanted to comute to work i got this error on my display. the Bike was ok when i left it overnight. The only differente thing i did yesterday is that i shut the battery down but only disconnected the Black wire (yeah stupid but i had a important calll ) .

Resolution: program again the controller. After it all was alright.

next time disconnect the red wire instead but before turn everything off by the buttons

[vshitikov]

Continuing on my quest for removing play.

Adding a shim washer to the sprag clutch/big gear wasn't as effective as I'd hoped. After re-fitting the spider the wobble was reduced but still excessive.

As others have found, the tolerances between sprag clutch and torque sensor are poor and would benefit from sleeving. On mine the little key is also loose and wouldn't hurt to be a better fit.

But the factory sprag clutches have an issue too. Comparing it to the third-party replacement I purchased, the factory item has a much larger radius curvature on each side of the inner race. This means that the flat contact area with the shaft is reduced. The replacement has very minimal curvature and is a much better fit. You can see the differences in the photo below, especially around the key way.

radius.jpg

Looking at the wear pattern on the torque sensor, we can see that even though the sprag clutch is specified at 16mm thick the contact area is only about 10mm

In comparison, the replacement sprag clutch has a wider contact area of about 13.5mm.

contact-area.jpg

Original sprag clutch.
sprag-clutch-original.jpg

Replacement sprag clutch.
sprag-clutch-replacement.jpg

Additionally, the torque sensor has a small protrustion that the sprag clutch sits up against. Fitting the shim here like on the older models may be better than on the circlip side.

torque-sensor-protrusion.jpg

I also experimented with using aluminium foil as a shim, this actually worked really well with the original sprag clutch. There was still play but it's within the sprag clutch and so we are stuck with it. The best I can measure is that the foil is 0.07mm thick. It was a tight fit and you need to grease the foil and work slowly or it catches and tears. I needed to gently tap mine on.

Finding shim or feeler gauge in this thickness is difficult and can be expensive, but a quick search turned up this.
https://us.misumi-ec.com/vona2/detail/110300238820/

Edit.. I just bought some assorted brass shim sheet cheap.

foil.jpg

I did the same, putting aluminium kitchen foil, I wonder how long it will stay like that without wobble

[vass]

For future reference (or to help a newbie like me).
E03 Error (LCD05 with Marcoq Fw, based on Casainho work) - Today when i wanted to comute to work i got this error on my display. the Bike was ok when i left it overnight. The only differente thing i did yesterday is that i shut the battery down but only disconnected the Black wire (yeah stupid but i had a important calll ) .

Resolution: program again the controller. After it all was alright.

next time disconnect the red wire instead but before turn everything off by the buttons

Hehehehe, i usualy do that, strange that it corrupted the controller

[jeff.page.rides]

I was just informed that if you use the throttle it doesn't matter what setting you use, it has the same amount of power. I've never used a throttle so I wouldn't know for sure. If it's true that using the throttle is the same no matter what setting you're in, that means you need to be very careful of how much you use the throttle or you're gonna burn it up in every setting.
Is this true, is this the way the throttle works?
If so it would be great to have settings that affect how much power the throttle is using!
Please reply what your experience with the throttle is?

Below is the way I thought the Throttle works.
I drove over to electrifybike.com this afternoon and we programed 2 handcycles with these newest settings for the National Ability Center, that have throttles on them. Electrify loves the new setting so much, they are much more usable for a HANDCYCLE. We discussed what we could do to be able to use these awesome settings and still not meltdown the TSDZ2 when pedaling and when using the throttle. What we came up with was that you don't use the throttle for more than a few feet at a time to get threw a tough spot, then you can use level 1-5. But if you're using it to get up a Hill then it has to be in level 1 if hot outside or level 2 if its cool outside, otherwise, it'll fry the motor. When you're on a handcycle the Motors right in front of your face so signs that it's too hot are very easy to recognize. If it starts to get louder it's too hot, if you touch it and can feel that it's hot it's too hot. We Suggest you use the settings with some common sense and your motor should last a long time. My fist motor has over 5000 miles on it. The newer motor has over 2500 miles. If you turn it up with the throttle or turn it up to much when it's hot outside even if you're pedaling it can overheat and you could fry it.
So just use common sense, work a little harder and your motor should last a long time!

Thanks,
Jeff

[feketehegyi]

Please reply what your experience with the throttle is?

Hi Jeff,
I have a 6 pin no throttle version 36v TSDZ2 on a 20" Dahon folding bike. Recently I have extended it with a DIY "throttle".
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hXmfLcXRk3M
Now I have it on my handlebar with a switch I can disable it. Working like a cruise control / tempomat.
If you set your assist to zero it disables throttle as well.
With my app I can see the actual ampere used by the motor. Fyi, there are some data I have noted:

• with the throttle the RPM of the motor is controlled. As far as I feel assist level has no influence on it.

• I have never used throttle to start the bike.

• on flat road already in motion using the throttle:
  • with around 5 ampere continuously I can maintain around 20Km/h speed.
  • my max speed is around 33Km/h for which to maintain I pay around 11 ampere continuously.

• Upwards even with easiest gear combination it can go up to 11 ampere. Actually in case of hill I do not use throttle.

• if I pedal it hard then in assist level 4 I can hit 15-17 ampere for a moment. Then by next turn again. But it is definitely not continuous like the throttle, but actually higher for the moment.

• I did recently a test trip. I used my diy "throttle" 90% and only at upwards or at crosses I used pedaling.
  Distance: 53Km, Altitude: 103m - 115m. Time: 3 hours. My 2 years old 14.5AH 36V battery has gotten almost empty.
  And I used max 5-6 ampere continuously.

[jeff.page.rides]

Please reply what your experience with the throttle is?

Hi Jeff,
I have a 6 pin no throttle version 36v TSDZ2 on a 20" Dahon folding bike. Recently I have extended it with a DIY "throttle".
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hXmfLcXRk3M
Now I have it on my handlebar with a switch I can disable it. Working like a cruise control / tempomat.
If you set your assist to zero it disables throttle as well.
With my app I can see the actual ampere used by the motor. Fyi, there are some data I have noted:

• with the throttle the RPM of the motor is controlled. As far as I feel assist level has no influence on it.

• I have never used throttle to start the bike.

• on flat road already in motion using the throttle:
  • with around 5 ampere continuously I can maintain around 20Km/h speed.
  • my max speed is around 33Km/h for which to maintain I pay around 11 ampere continuously.

• Upwards even with easiest gear combination it can go up to 11 ampere. Actually in case of hill I do not use throttle.

• if I pedal it hard then in assist level 4 I can hit 15-17 ampere for a moment. Then by next turn again. But it is definitely not continuous like the throttle, but actually higher for the moment.

• I did recently a test trip. I used my diy "throttle" 90% and only at upwards or at crosses I used pedaling.
  Distance: 53Km, Altitude: 103m - 115m. Time: 3 hours. My 2 years old 14.5AH 36V battery has gotten almost empty.
  And I used max 5-6 ampere continuously.

Thanks for your input

[famichiki]

I was reading some posts on the German forum and saw a creative solution with 6902 2RS axle bearings.
Instead of adding one extra bearing on the non drive side behind the dustcap, they add also on the spiderside an extra bearing, that works against sideway play of the sprag clutch bearing.
Some replaced the dustcaps too for bearings. In that last case they have added 3 extra bearings in total and claimed the play was gone. So no sheets or feeler gauges between axle, torqueshaft and bearings, but the axle full bearings from crank to crank.
Could be the use of a 14mm wide needle bearing (4902 2RS), on the non drive side, be even better?


Picture from michih.axlebearingclose2.jpg
Picture from Michih.SpiderWithBearingClose2.jpg

For longevity a bearing with full contacting seals should be used, then the separate dust seal is no longer required.

6902 RS/6902 2RS (RS = rubber seals, 2 = both sides) do not contact the inner race so have less drag but let in water and dirt.

At a minimum, use a SKF 61902 2RS1. RS1 designates contact seals, these are the best seals SKF offer on direct 6902RS replacement.

But there are better bearings specifically designed for external use on bicycles including MTBs. LLU is how other manufacturers designate their contact seals which ride in a groove. The below LLU bearings use dual seals, one to keep contaminants out and the other to keep the grease in. The SKF RS1 seals only ride in a groove in the outer race and have a single contacting lip on the inner race. But the MTRX07 don't contain grease, instead using an interesting "solid oil", so they don't need the additional inner seal to keep the grease in.

SKF KAMB MTRX07 - Solid oil (no wash out), contact RS1 type seals
https://www.skf-mtrx.de/en/product-details
https://evolution.skf.com/wp-content/up ... -fig-2.jpg

ENDURO 6902 LLU range
6902LLUMAX - Dual lip seals, 90% grease fill, maximum number of balls, no retainer (cage) and fill slot for balls
6902LLUMAXBO - Black Oxide finish
6902LLUMAX-E - Extended 10 mm inner race
6902LLUMAX-EB - Extended 9.5mm inner race, with flange (discontinued?)
https://www.endurobearings.com/wp-conte ... atalog.pdf
https://www.bike-components.de/en/Endur ... mm-p57556/
http://www.wychbearings.co.uk/6902-llu- ... aring.html

NTN 6902 LLU
Dual lip seals, teflon impregnated grease
https://bearingfinder.ntnamericas.com/i ... gs/6902llu
https://www.hambini.com/product/ntn-690 ... e-bearing/

*The 6902 LLU MAX-E is particular interesting as it has an extended 10mm inner race which could help reduce play and provide better support. I am not sure if there is enough space on the drive side. But it's worth considering for the non-drive side as it could be fitted further outboard in place of the dust seal there.

6902-LLU-MAX-E.jpg (39.69 KiB) Viewed 568 times

[Andrew707]

Hello,

Today, I've wanted to do heat dissipation improvement on my motor following tutorial on wiki, replace the blue gear, regrease everything and silicone seal the housing for extra waterproofness. Everything went quite well until I had to test it out... And the motor is not working properly. After pedalling harder I noticed that power drops and there's this weird sound coming out of the motor like "wrum wrum" (here's a short video with that sound).

I have 2800km on this motor and this is the first time I opened it up. The blue gear seemed fine but I still decided to replace it with a new one. To regrease everything I've used ParkTool PPL-1 PolyLube 1000.

Here are some pictures of my progress: https://imgur.com/a/gKUjd30

Does anybody have any ideas what could be wrong?

[famichiki]

Does anybody have any ideas what could be wrong?

Did you also install the temperature sensor at the time, and if so have you configured the firmware properly? Otherwise, perhaps the motor caps were not evenly refitted but perhaps someone else has seen this before.

Also it's unlikely to be the problem if the noise started immediately, but does the Park Tool grease specifically mention it's safe for plastics? The SDS says it contains "Petroleum distillates, hydrotreated heavy naphthenic 40-50%" and so seems mineral oil based.
https://www.parktool.com/assets/doc/pro ... -2_SDS.pdf

What are Distillates (petroleum), hydrotreated heavy naphthenic?
They are high quality naphthenic base oils with a low pour point and good solvency properties. They have been extensively hydrotreated resulting in low aromatic, clear, bright and less coloured mineral oil with excellent stability.
https://www.shell.com/business-customer ... thenic.pdf

I would change it for at least a synthetic PAO based grease, there have been a few recommendations previously posted.

[skestans]

Thanks for sharing that video, could you please double-check I have labelled this correctly?

Orange = Throttle signal
White = +5 Volts
Black = Ground

OK I had a dig through the images from the forum and found a better image and a better video I have too. Yes your labelling looks correct except I'm not sure I have the black wire that you labelled. Just use the black wire in the 8 wire loom along with the white and orange wires going to the display.

https://youtu.be/C2U7PKTt02s

TSDZ2_motor_controller_with_throttle_wires.jpeg

Ok, what I've labelled on that photo all seems correct then. Thanks for your help. I also found a previous discussion you were involved with, I followed my wiring to the connector with a multimeter and it matches the diagram.
viewtopic.php?p=1479105#p1479105

I've edited my post to say that all the wires I labelled are actually from the 8-pin wire loom, they are splayed out because I've cut the cable to shorten it. So it seems the black ground wire in the cable is being taken from a different place now.

What connectors did you use internally for the temperature sensor? I’d rather have a connector than directly attach it, it’ll make eventually replacing it easier in the future.

[famichiki]

What connectors did you use internally for the temperature sensor? I’d rather have a connector than directly attach it, it’ll make eventually replacing it easier in the future.

3-pin JST-SM pigtail connector intended for LED strips. The wire length gives you a few options of where to place the sensor.
https://core-electronics.com.au/led-str ... 3-pin.html

[Andrew707]

Did you also install the temperature sensor at the time, and if so have you configured the firmware properly? Otherwise, perhaps the motor caps were not evenly refitted but perhaps someone else has seen this before.

....

I would change it for at least a synthetic PAO based grease, there have been a few recommendations previously posted.

No, I didn't install the temperature sensor.

Thank you, I'll read the thread for grease recommendations and will try to source something locally!

In the meanwhile would appreciate any other ideas what could be going on with that sound in the motor.

[jeff.page.rides]

Here are some pictures of my progress: https://imgur.com/a/gKUjd30

Does anybody have any ideas what could be wrong?

When you separated the motor itself, did you make sure that that very small spacer like the one that's on the end of the blue gear is in place?
Did you make sure that the white insulators are in the proper position to keep the wires from grounding out on the motor housing?
That's the 2 things that come to my mind.
Everything looked good in the pictures good luck with that, it's always a bummer when something happens after you think you've done everything correctly.
Jeff

[Andrew707]

When you separated the motor itself, did you make sure that that very small spacer like the one that's on the end of the blue gear is in place?
Did you make sure that the white insulators are in the proper position to keep the wires from grounding out on the motor housing?
That's the 2 things that come to my mind.
Everything looked good in the pictures good luck with that, it's always a bummer when something happens after you think you've done everything correctly.
Jeff

The spacer was quite bent but I think I put it in place. However, I didn't pay attention to white insulators when putting it together. Thank you for the ideas! I'll take everything apart today and will try to verify if everything is in place.

[famichiki]

When you separated the motor itself, did you make sure that that very small spacer like the one that's on the end of the blue gear is in place?
Did you make sure that the white insulators are in the proper position to keep the wires from grounding out on the motor housing?
That's the 2 things that come to my mind.

Do you have any photos of these? Now I'm wondering if I put my own motor back together properly. I had a wave washer at the terminals end of the spindle, I don't recall seeing any insulators though.

The spacer was quite bent but I think I put it in place. However, I didn't pay attention to white insulators when putting it together. Thank you for the ideas! I'll take everything apart today and will try to verify if everything is in place.

This discussion talks about the importance of aligning everything properly and the consequences.
viewtopic.php?f=28&t=79788&p=1519052#p1519052

[jeff.page.rides]

When you separated the motor itself, did you make sure that that very small spacer like the one that's on the end of the blue gear is in place?
Did you make sure that the white insulators are in the proper position to keep the wires from grounding out on the motor housing?
That's the 2 things that come to my mind.

Do you have any photos of these? Now I'm wondering if I put my own motor back together properly. I had a wave washer at the terminals end of the spindle, I don't recall seeing any insulators though.

The spacer was quite bent but I think I put it in place. However, I didn't pay attention to white insulators when putting it together. Thank you for the ideas! I'll take everything apart today and will try to verify if everything is in place.

The spacer is meant to be a wave spacer.

This discussion talks about the importance of aligning everything properly and the consequences.
viewtopic.php?f=28&t=79788&p=1519052#p1519052

[famichiki]

The spacer is meant to be a wave spacer.

Ok, that sounds like what I had so hopefully Andrew hasn't flattened his out.

The spacer was quite bent but I think I put it in place. However, I didn't pay attention to white insulators when putting it together. Thank you for the ideas! I'll take everything apart today and will try to verify if everything is in place.

Jeff, and Andrew, did you remove the black terminal block from the motor cap during the process? I left mine on while I disassembled everything else. From Andrews photo it looks like he left his on too. Could that have caused any damage?

So I'm just wondering, are these white insulators underneath that.. or somewhere else? I'm just hoping I don't need to pull the thing apart again.

[Big_Daddy]

When you separated the motor itself, did you make sure that that very small spacer like the one that's on the end of the blue gear is in place?
[/quote]

Where exactly does that small spacer mount? I have been staring at one all afternoon trying to figure out where it came from. I removed the housing to check my blue gear and lube , but didn't remove the blue gear.

[famichiki]

Where exactly does that small spacer mount? I have been staring at one all afternoon trying to figure out where it came from. I removed the housing to check my blue gear and lube , but didn't remove the blue gear.

There is a spacer washer that goes on the reduction shaft between the blue gear and the bearing in the electric motor housing.

[famichiki]

PAS sensor fail and repair

I put the following information on the wiki: https://github.com/OpenSource-EBike-fir ... PAS_sensor

I got the PAS sensor working intermittently and after disassembling TSDZ2 motor controller to inspect, I saw the following (left side is the sensor failing and on right side is new one):



Seems the failing sensor was sanded (about 1 millimeter) by the torque sensor part ring where the 20 small magnets are. Why did it happen? Maybe when I previously disassembled and assembled again the torque sensor I did not install a needed washer? Or maybe there is now some looseness of the axle where the torque sensor is due to wear after the many usage I did to the motor?

To repair, I exchanged the PAS sensor to a new one from a broken motor controller I had, by cutting the original 4 color wires of the old one to solder the wires of the new one. This time I put 2 little washers between the PAS sensor and the place it is screwed so it is now far way about 1 millimeter and with this I hope it will not be sanded enough, by the torque sensor, to fail. Other option to repair could be simple exchange for a new motor controller however I would need also to put that 2 little washers under the PAS sensor.

Did you lower your PAS sensor so it was level or below the surface of the case? My PAS sensor sits about 0.5mm above the case. So, do you think it's better to lower this so it is level with the case (and won't be sanded) and would it still work properly?

[Andrew707]

When you separated the motor itself, did you make sure that that very small spacer like the one that's on the end of the blue gear is in place?
Did you make sure that the white insulators are in the proper position to keep the wires from grounding out on the motor housing?
That's the 2 things that come to my mind.

So I'm just wondering, are these white insulators underneath that.. or somewhere else? I'm just hoping I don't need to pull the thing apart again.

So today I disassembled everything again.

First, I've tried to replace blue gear back to the original one. The motor was behaving the same.

Second, I disassembled the motor itself and checked if waved spacer was in its place and that white insulators were in proper position and were not grounding out on the motor housing. The copper wires had some thermal paste on but I believe that shouldn't be a problem. Assembled everything back and tested it again but no luck.

Third, I was thinking that the sound motor makes feels like something is slipping. So my hypothesis was that the shaft on which you mount blue gear is too greasy and it's slipping. So I used rubbing alcohol to clean it but it didn't help as well. Also in all youtube videos I see that people are able to remove that shaft but I wasn't able to. It seems stuck.

When pedalling slowly everything seems to work fine. When I apply more force to the pedals I feel like the power drops and then the "wrum" sound usually appears. Kinda feels like that all the lost power accumulates and fires suddenly causing motor to spin very fast and slip? Is that even possible?

Btw, here are more pics of work done today: https://imgur.com/a/V5DvbOQ

[famichiki]

So today I disassembled everything again.

Did you figure out what these white insulators are that Jeff mentioned, could be he referring that that woven tape?

Your pics all look ok. I also have got thermal paste over the copper wires, so I hope it's not going to be a problem. I used Artic MX-4 which says is metal-free and not electrically conductive.

Also in all youtube videos I see that people are able to remove that shaft but I wasn't able to. It seems stuck.

The bearing behind the pinion gear is a tight fit in the gear case, so that shaft needs to be tapped out from the drive side.

Have a look at the bearings in the blue gear and make sure they are not spinning within the gear, particularly the roller clutch one. Some people have had trouble with that. I glued the ball bearing one in with retaining compound, but my roller bearing seems to be firmly mounted. If there is any grease inside the roller bearing it must not be EP (Extreme Pressure) or it could slip. Usually if a grease is EP it will say it, otherwise it may say nothing. But you'd need to research the data sheets etc to be sure.

Be sure to press the motor caps back on as evenly as possible.

Keep us updated please!

Oh, and I've just been reading about your bottom bracket beer can shim because my BB measures 34.0mm.

[jeff.page.rides]

So today I disassembled everything again.

Did you figure out what these white insulators are that Jeff mentioned, could be he referring that that woven tape?

Your pics all look ok. I also have got thermal paste over the copper wires, so I hope it's not going to be a problem. I used Artic MX-4 which says is metal-free and not electrically conductive.

Also in all youtube videos I see that people are able to remove that shaft but I wasn't able to. It seems stuck.

The bearing behind the pinion gear is a tight fit in the gear case, so that shaft needs to be tapped out from the drive side.

Have a look at the bearings in the blue gear and make sure they are not spinning within the gear, particularly the roller clutch one. Some people have had trouble with that. I glued the ball bearing one in with retaining compound, but my roller bearing seems to be firmly mounted. If there is any grease inside the roller bearing it must not be EP (Extreme Pressure) or it could slip. Usually if a grease is EP it will say it, otherwise it may say nothing. But you'd need to research the data sheets etc to be sure.

Be sure to press the motor caps back on as evenly as possible.

Keep us updated please!

Oh, and I've just been reading about your bottom bracket beer can shim because my BB measures 34.0mm.

All good advice, it's a bummer when these kind of things happen and you're not sure what's causing it!

My biggest problem is always that I can't do it myself because my hands don't work and I have to beg, and plead to get someone to help me do it and follow my instructions. So every time something happens it takes days and weeks to get any one to help.

[jeff.page.rides]

I appreciate all the work that everyone has done!

I finally figured out what to turn up and what to turn down to get V1 to work for me and others with much weaker arms than a normal person has.

There are 3 things with the current Version One that would really be a big improvement.

1 When you pull back to brake immediately after pedaling there's a high rate of resistance no matter where I put the setting and it doesn't go away until you move the cranks back forward a half-inch after I've stopped pedaling, then the resistance goes away. But in a panic situation and you don't remember you have to go forward again before you pull back again to get brakes to work, and it is scary, but luckily no crashes yet. That's the way it was back in version 19 and when version 20 came out it fixed that. If someone can look into this and then make the changes in V20 to V1 that would be awesome.

2 Also when taking off from a dead stop it would be nice to have a little more power and a lot less shake & shutter to get moving.

3 STARTUP BOOST is switched disable is enable. It would be nice to have this fixed.

Thanks, Jeff