New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

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bergerandfries   1 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by bergerandfries » Sep 24 2020 12:16pm

My sprag clutch just died this morning. 2000 miles or 3200km on the motor with OSF the whole life of the motor. It started with a strange squeak at a non-consistent point of rotation of the cranks for probably a couple of hundred miles. Then the chain started skipping in only the most extreme outside rear gear (highest gear on my 9 spd rear cassette). This went on for a week or so, say 30-40 miles. Then the clutch just totally spun out this morning. I'd make a video, but this one has done it all! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ldJ4rTrNlC8

jeff.page.rides   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by jeff.page.rides » Sep 24 2020 4:38pm

This is a copy of a reply to an email I received asking about the displays and firmware available for the TSDZ2.
I thought I would share my opinion on the different versions of firmware and the different displays

Hi Lee,

There are four different displays with three different firmware programs available for the TSDZ2. The 860C display only works with V1 but is by far the best display. The 850C display works with V1 and V19 but you can’t read it in the sun. The LCD3 display works with V19 and V20 and is a good display that works in the sun, but has to be disassembled to flash. The VLCD5 is a very limited display that works with the stock firmware and V20. But to change settings or view different information with V20 is very difficult. But the display doesn’t need to be flashed, only the motors need to be flashed and it’s easy and very quick to flash with different settings and works well with V20.

Version 1 is very refined but very complex and difficult to set up and to get working correctly. It does have the potential to be very good at some point down the road, but at this time lacks low RPM power and starting power. It also doesn't work well with a coaster brake, when you stop pedaling it stops but has a high rate of resistance when you pull back to brake, you have to move the pedals back forward 1 inch then pull back again and the resistance stops so you can brake.
It is the only version at this time that works on the 860C which is the best display.

Version 20 is very good, but it could use a few refinements. I believe this is the very best software for any setup.
I hope at some point someone will get version 20 to work with the 860C.

Version 19 is an older version that some people still like, but will never be improved, it does not work with coaster brake motors.

If you could take the good parts of version 1 and version 20 and get them to work on an 860C that would be the very best scenario.

Later,
Jeff

Elinx   1 kW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Elinx » Sep 24 2020 5:26pm

jeff.page.rides wrote:
Sep 24 2020 4:38pm
.... displays and firmware available for the TSDZ2.

There are four different displays with three different firmware programs available for the TSDZ2. ......
..
If you could take the good parts of version 1 and version 20 and get them to work on an 860C that would be the very best scenario.
There is forgotten one version of the OSF based on v0.20b1, but with some additions that are also inside v1.0.
That is the OSF BTversion of mspider65, that works with bluetooth and Android display.

jeff.page.rides   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by jeff.page.rides » Sep 25 2020 6:16am

Elinx wrote:
Sep 24 2020 5:26pm
jeff.page.rides wrote:
Sep 24 2020 4:38pm
.... displays and firmware available for the TSDZ2.

There are four different displays with three different firmware programs available for the TSDZ2. ......
..
If you could take the good parts of version 1 and version 20 and get them to work on an 860C that would be the very best scenario.
There is forgotten one version of the OSF based on v0.20b1, but with some additions that are also inside v1.0.
That is the OSF BTversion of mspider65, that works with bluetooth and Android display.
I haven't been following the wireless forum, I didn't know that some code from V20 was being used. Thats good to hear, I thought it was all code from V1. Can this version be flashed and used on the 860C with out using any wireless devices? I have two hand cycles one has tried the VLC5 & the LCD3, both with V20, the other one has tried the LCD3 and 860C with V20 and V1. My wifes bike has a 850C and has tried V19 threw V1. We have used the displays and firmware versions in the last several months. It's a lot of work consistently changing systems but it's the only way to compare them accurately. Thanks to electrifybike.com for flashing them each time, and my wife and family for being my hands. As a weak handcyclest I notice things easier than others. And the TSDZ2 is 18" in front of my face, so can hear small changes and can touch the TSDZ2 anytime easily.

casainho   10 GW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by casainho » Sep 25 2020 6:32am

I would like to share a picture of a beautiful build of a fat bike with TSDZ2, that was posted on github issues by user eraue:

Built an e-bike with a tsdz2 and 860c display that I use to commute 40 minutes to work every day.

Image
- TSDZ2 FAQ: issues and repairs, etc
- TSDZ2 OpenSource firmware

Developer of OpenSource knowledge and technology for ebikes: Wireless Ebike boar ANT+ and Bluetooth, Flexible OpenSource firmware for EBikes: TSDZ2 mid drive motor, KT motor controllers and displays: Bafang 850C color, SW102 Bluetooth and KT-LCD3.

If you like my work, please consider making a donation to help my developments: paypal.me/jorgecasa

SlowCo   1 MW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by SlowCo » Sep 25 2020 8:44am

casainho wrote:
Sep 25 2020 6:32am
I would like to share a picture of a beautiful build of a fat bike with TSDZ2, that was posted on github issues by user eraue
That looks great :thumb:

Big_Daddy   10 mW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Big_Daddy » Sep 25 2020 11:01am

jeff.page.rides wrote:
Sep 24 2020 4:38pm
This is a copy of a reply to an email I received asking about the displays and firmware available for the TSDZ2.
I thought I would share my opinion on the different versions of firmware and the different displays

Hi Lee,

There are four different displays with three different firmware programs available for the TSDZ2. The 860C display only works with V1 but is by far the best display. The 850C display works with V1 and V19 but you can’t read it in the sun. The LCD3 display works with V19 and V20 and is a good display that works in the sun, but has to be disassembled to flash. The VLCD5 is a very limited display that works with the stock firmware and V20. But to change settings or view different information with V20 is very difficult. But the display doesn’t need to be flashed, only the motors need to be flashed and it’s easy and very quick to flash with different settings and works well with V20.

Version 1 is very refined but very complex and difficult to set up and to get working correctly. It does have the potential to be very good at some point down the road, but at this time lacks low RPM power and starting power. It also doesn't work well with a coaster brake, when you stop pedaling it stops but has a high rate of resistance when you pull back to brake, you have to move the pedals back forward 1 inch then pull back again and the resistance stops so you can brake.
It is the only version at this time that works on the 860C which is the best display.

Version 20 is very good, but it could use a few refinements. I believe this is the very best software for any setup.
I hope at some point someone will get version 20 to work with the 860C.

Version 19 is an older version that some people still like, but will never be improved, it does not work with coaster brake motors.

If you could take the good parts of version 1 and version 20 and get them to work on an 860C that would be the very best scenario.

Later,
Jeff
Jeff do you know whether an 850C display can be used with the stock TSDZ2 firmware? Have a TSDZ2 with OSF that I need to restore back to the stock profile but my display is an 850C. If so, any idea where I can download the program files that will change the 850c OSF display back to the original Bafang GUI, or whatever user interface supports using an 850C with stock TSDZ2. Any help is appreciated. Thanks.

jeff.page.rides   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by jeff.page.rides » Sep 25 2020 4:19pm

Big_Daddy wrote:
Sep 25 2020 11:01am
jeff.page.rides wrote:
Sep 24 2020 4:38pm
Jeff do you know whether an 850C display can be used with the stock TSDZ2 firmware? Have a TSDZ2 with OSF that I need to restore back to the stock profile but my display is an 850C. If so, any idea where I can download the program files that will change the 850c OSF display back to the original Bafang GUI, or whatever user interface supports using an 850C with stock TSDZ2. Any help is appreciated. Thanks.
Yes if your TSDZ2 came with stock firmware on the 850C when you bought them together then it's possible to put it back on. But if you bought an 850C separately from your TSDC2 or with OSF software you can not put the original software back on. If it came with a VLCD5 you can put the original firmware back on the TSDZ2 or you can put version 20 on the TSDZ2 that works very well.

Wapous   1 mW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Wapous » Sep 27 2020 11:16am

Example of the pressure exerted by the helical gear.
Wear of the retaining ring after 8000 km.


:oops:
After better analysis, the wear on the retaining ring is not due to the helical gear but to the lateral movement of the main shaft which causes the friction of the retaining ring on the roller bearing which is captive. I am sorry for that.
This could be minimized by adding a teflon washer between the roller bearing and the C-clip on the no driving side.
Attachments
Pressure marks.jpg
Pressure marks.jpg (280.76 KiB) Viewed 726 times
Helical gear pressure.JPG
Helical gear pressure.JPG (189.19 KiB) Viewed 726 times
Last edited by Wapous on Sep 28 2020 3:14pm, edited 1 time in total.

jeff.page.rides   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by jeff.page.rides » Sep 27 2020 7:35pm

TSDZ2 Fluid Cooling

I’ve been working with this all summer. With several different leaks, different pumps, different tubing, different fluid routing, different fluids, and other difficulties. I finally have a fluid made to fill-up brushless Motors and it is working the way I wanted to from the start with no leaks. I can ride at 700 - 850 Watts all day long and the motor never gets more than 10-20 degrees warmer than the outside air. With all the same steps, but with only fluid in the left side of the case, and no external addons will keep the motor at 30 to 50 degrees warmer than the outside air at 700-850 watts. So that means you can ride at high watts at 100 degrees outside and note worry about overheating. I use a led temp display attached to the bottom of the 860C. It has 2 probes and both temps show, one I leave out in the air on the front of the bike the other one is in the oil in the motor. This also allows you to use a throttle and still have a temperature sensor. It’s cooler, quieter and it’s smoother, but unfortunately like everything I had to learn it all the hard way.

When the riding season is over in about 60 days I will be doing a step by step how-to, with directions and pictures so those that want to tackle this should be able to do it without all the mistakes I had to go through. I’ve attached a couple of photos, so you can see what I’ve done. I also added a new 42 tooth chainring from https://www.eco-ebike.com/collections/d ... lid-e-bike That works great and costs less than the other brand.

I’m trying to decide if I want to go through the effort to offer a kit with all the parts and fluid needed for both types, internal only and external cooling. There was a lot of trial and error finding the right fittings, the right type of hose, the right fluid the right pump, and everything else. To get all the right parts I had to go through several different suppliers, no one-stop-shop here. It’s a lot of work, but If I decide to do this they will be offered through,
www.electrifybike.com and possibly www.eco-ebike.com
Attachments
TSDZ2 Water Cooling_01.jpg
TSDZ2 Water Cooling_01.jpg (332.28 KiB) Viewed 681 times
TSDZ2 Water Cooling_02.jpg
TSDZ2 Water Cooling_02.jpg (330.38 KiB) Viewed 681 times
TSDZ2 Water Cooling_03.jpg
TSDZ2 Water Cooling_03.jpg (269.78 KiB) Viewed 681 times
TSDZ2 Water Cooling_04.jpg
TSDZ2 Water Cooling_04.jpg (269.83 KiB) Viewed 681 times
Last edited by jeff.page.rides on Sep 28 2020 7:08am, edited 1 time in total.

Elinx   1 kW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Elinx » Sep 28 2020 2:33am

jeff.page.rides wrote:
Sep 27 2020 7:35pm
TSDZ2 Fluid Cooling

I’ve been working with this all summer.........
:bigthumb:
Gongrats with this true piece of art. You did a great job.

LeftCoastNurd   10 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by LeftCoastNurd » Sep 28 2020 2:48am

I'm curious what the coolant is?

Looks great. The pics of your recumbent were initially confusing but once I sorted out what I was seeing it made better sense

jeff.page.rides   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by jeff.page.rides » Sep 28 2020 8:24am

LeftCoastNurd wrote:
Sep 28 2020 2:48am
I'm curious what the coolant is?

Looks great. The pics of your recumbent were initially confusing but once I sorted out what I was seeing it made better sense
I will give all the details when I do the how to, I am trying to find away to offer the fluid in small quantities. It only comes in large amounts enough to do 8 external systems with the smallest available amount, and it is not cheap.

SlowCo   1 MW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by SlowCo » Sep 28 2020 1:41pm

jeff.page.rides wrote:
Sep 28 2020 8:24am
I am trying to find away to offer the fluid in small quantities. It only comes in large amounts enough to do 8 external systems with the smallest available amount, and it is not cheap.
Why not use thin oil? Available everywhere in small amounts.

Tom te B   1 µW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Tom te B » Sep 28 2020 3:59pm

Hi, I am Tom and new in this forum.
I recently bought the tsdz2 48V 500W motor and installed it to a full suspension mountainbike.
I really like the torque sensing and the small form factor.

However I do like to have a higher cadence. The motor can do 4000 rpm which is about 90 rpm at the cranks. But way before that the power starts dropping, it feels like above 70 rpm power drops.

I do not fancy to go for the open firmware option, it looks rather complicated to me. I would rather swap the bare motor for an 36V one, and leave the 48V controller.

What will happen when I exchange the bare motor for a 36 V motor?
Who has done this before and can explain what will happen?
Whill it rev 33% higher because of the higher voltage?
Or is the motor speed controlled by some sort of encoder / hall sensors and is it restricted to 4000 rpm by the controller anyway?

Best Regards,
Tom

leisesturm   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by leisesturm » Sep 28 2020 4:51pm

Tom te B wrote:
Sep 28 2020 3:59pm
Hi, I am Tom and new in this forum.
I recently bought the tsdz2 48V 500W motor and installed it to a full suspension mountainbike.
I really like the torque sensing and the small form factor.

However I do like to have a higher cadence. The motor can do 4000 rpm which is about 90 rpm at the cranks. But way before that the power starts dropping, it feels like above 70 rpm power drops.

I do not fancy to go for the open firmware option, it looks rather complicated to me. I would rather swap the bare motor for an 36V one, and leave the 48V controller.

What will happen when I exchange the bare motor for a 36 V motor?
Who has done this before and can explain what will happen?
Whill it rev 33% higher because of the higher voltage?
Or is the motor speed controlled by some sort of encoder / hall sensors and is it restricted to 4000 rpm by the controller anyway?

Best Regards,
Tom
Your way will work, but it may not get you enough higher rpm than where you are now to be worth the guaranteed increased wear and tear on the 36V motor. It should be easy to calculate what your top speed is now, figure the % increase ... I'm no mathmetician but I don't think 36 to 48 is a 33% increase. I just ordered the 48/52V motor and the OSF. I am expecting 120rpm at the crank. I can de-rate the motor to 500W and keep the 120rpm cadence. I think this is a much better way of doing it than overvolting the 36V motor. If you think flashing the firmware is 'complicated', why not get a friend to do it? The instructions are easily available and the right kind of friend will understand them easily. If you lived in Portland, OR I'd have a go. I'm not afraid of doing it myself but it doesn't make any sense to do it when ECO Cycles has been so kind as to offer kits with the work already done. Good luck.

jeff.page.rides   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by jeff.page.rides » Sep 28 2020 5:15pm

SlowCo wrote:
Sep 28 2020 1:41pm
jeff.page.rides wrote:
Sep 28 2020 8:24am
I am trying to find a way to offer the fluid in small quantities. It only comes in large amounts enough to do 8 external systems with the smallest available amount, and it is not cheap.
Why not use thin oil? Available everywhere in small amounts.
You can try any oil out there, I wanted fluid that was made for this purpose, and from what I've read about it the motor should virtually last 10 times what it would last without any fluid in it. One of the fluids I tried along the way was automatic transmission fluid and it's thinner than motor oil, but the pump was a lot slower. When I took it apart to fix a leak it also stained the end cap of the motor that has the wires a dark color. I thought that was odd.

jeff.page.rides   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by jeff.page.rides » Sep 28 2020 5:25pm

leisesturm wrote:
Sep 28 2020 4:51pm
Tom te B wrote:
Sep 28 2020 3:59pm
Hi, I am Tom and new in this forum.
I recently bought the tsdz2 48V 500W motor and installed it to a full suspension mountainbike.
I really like the torque sensing and the small form factor.

However I do like to have a higher cadence. The motor can do 4000 rpm which is about 90 rpm at the cranks. But way before that the power starts dropping, it feels like above 70 rpm power drops.

I do not fancy to go for the open firmware option, it looks rather complicated to me. I would rather swap the bare motor for an 36V one, and leave the 48V controller.

What will happen when I exchange the bare motor for a 36 V motor?
Who has done this before and can explain what will happen?
Whill it rev 33% higher because of the higher voltage?
Or is the motor speed controlled by some sort of encoder / hall sensors and is it restricted to 4000 rpm by the controller anyway?

Best Regards,
Tom
Your way will work, but it may not get you enough higher rpm than where you are now to be worth the guaranteed increased wear and tear on the 36V motor. It should be easy to calculate what your top speed is now, figure the % increase ... I'm no mathematician but I don't think 36 to 48 is a 33% increase. I just ordered the 48/52V motor and the OSF. I am expecting 120rpm at the crank. I can de-rate the motor to 500W and keep the 120rpm cadence. I think this is a much better way of doing it than overvolting the 36V motor. If you think flashing the firmware is 'complicated', why not get a friend to do it? The instructions are easily available and the right kind of friend will understand them easily. If you lived in Portland, OR I'd have a go. I'm not afraid of doing it myself but it doesn't make any sense to do it when ECO Cycles has been so kind as to offer kits with the work already done. Good luck.
The controller is the same on a 48 Volt and 36 Volt system. But the firmware from the factory is not the same. I would not run a 36 Volt motor with a 48 Volt programmed controller. If you use the OSF software and put the settings so that it's a 36 Volt motor and you can safely run 52 Volt batteries on the 36 Volt motor, but not with the factory firmware. The OSF firmware also allows you to run a much higher cadence with both 36V and 48V motors.

famichiki   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by famichiki » Sep 28 2020 6:47pm

Wapous wrote:
Sep 27 2020 11:16am
Example of the pressure exerted by the helical gear.
Wear of the retaining ring after 8000 km.
:oops:
After better analysis, the wear on the retaining ring is not due to the helical gear but to the lateral movement of the main shaft which causes the friction of the retaining ring on the roller bearing which is captive. I am sorry for that.
This could be minimized by adding a teflon washer between the roller bearing and the C-clip on the no driving side.
Looking at the disassembled motor in front of me, it seems like outward pressure on the torque sensor assembly would instead be the cause of this.

The roller bearing slides freely over the torque sensor shaft and is a press fit up to the lip inside the motor case which does not contact the retaining ring, the retaining ring passes through the lip.

Inward pressure on the torque sensor by the helical gearing would slide it through the static roller bearing towards the non-drive side, increasing the space between the bearing and retaining ring. If anything, it would cause pressure between the outward side of the roller bearing and torque sensor.

So what could be causing excessive outward pressure on the torque sensor assembly? The 3 little springs that push the separate disc outward are weak, so was that disc fitted incorrectly? Or is there some unusual shimming going on with the 6902RS non-drive side spindle bearing? It may even be nothing extraordinary and just prolonged light contact given your mileage. Also consider that adding a teflon washer there may lead to the torque sensor discs excessively rubbing.

leisesturm   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by leisesturm » Sep 28 2020 7:05pm

Tom te B wrote:
Sep 28 2020 3:59pm
The controller is the same on a 48 Volt and 36 Volt system. But the firmware from the factory is not the same. I would not run a 36 Volt motor with a 48 Volt programmed controller. If you use the OSF software and put the settings so that it's a 36 Volt motor and you can safely run 52 Volt batteries on the 36 Volt motor, but not with the factory firmware. The OSF firmware also allows you to run a much higher cadence with both 36V and 48V motors.
I am not quite understanding. Are you saying you want to buy a 36V motor: https://www.eco-ebike.com/collections/t ... -for-tsdz2. Or are you saying you just want to tell your 48V system controller that you have a 36V motor? Best thing to do is talk to David Hall at the link I just gave you. He knows more about these motors than you or I.

Tom te B   1 µW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Tom te B » Sep 29 2020 12:26am

Yes, I am thinking about getting a 36V motor like in your link.

Tom te B   1 µW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Tom te B » Sep 29 2020 1:11am

@Leisesturm,

I found this tip in your link to the 36V motor.
Tip: If you have a 48v or 52v stock system, you can replace the stock inside motor with a 36v motor for increased power towards the top end of RPM/cadence support, but it will run a little hotter.

Thanks!

vass   1 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by vass » Sep 29 2020 3:22am

Waiting for the how to :) (and the price for the "oil" :mrgreen: )
When i wanted to use "oil" for cooling my gaming pc i read a little bit about it, in the end mineral oil was the cheapest way to do it but it dmgs plastic in the long run (so maybe a controller failure will happen if used here) , the best was 3M Novec but it was so expensive that it would be better to buy 2 pcs :)
jeff.page.rides wrote:
Sep 28 2020 5:15pm
SlowCo wrote:
Sep 28 2020 1:41pm
jeff.page.rides wrote:
Sep 28 2020 8:24am
I am trying to find a way to offer the fluid in small quantities. It only comes in large amounts enough to do 8 external systems with the smallest available amount, and it is not cheap.
Why not use thin oil? Available everywhere in small amounts.
You can try any oil out there, I wanted fluid that was made for this purpose, and from what I've read about it the motor should virtually last 10 times what it would last without any fluid in it. One of the fluids I tried along the way was automatic transmission fluid and it's thinner than motor oil, but the pump was a lot slower. When I took it apart to fix a leak it also stained the end cap of the motor that has the wires a dark color. I thought that was odd.

maximusdm   100 W

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Problem with torque sensor!

Post by maximusdm » Sep 29 2020 7:54am

Hello,

I did a hardware calibration of the torque sensor. The sensor reads value and has not error, but it does not change on pedal press. Stays almost fix value. If i move the small black part with the magnet and hall sensor, the values change, but still on press nothing.
I opened the motor twice and I found not visual problems.
Why does the sensor value not change on force?
Also is there a way to simulate pedal force without installing it on motor? I read the wiki but is not very clear how to do it with 2 screwdrivers.

Maybe someone knows better how a torque sensor works and has some ideas.

Thanks!

leisesturm   100 W

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Re: Problem with torque sensor!

Post by leisesturm » Sep 29 2020 11:02am

maximusdm wrote:
Sep 29 2020 7:54am
1. Why does the sensor value not change on force?
2. Also is there a way to simulate pedal force without installing it on motor?
3. I read the wiki but is not very clear how to do it with 2 screwdrivers.
3a. Maybe someone knows better how a torque sensor works and has some ideas.
1. It probably is changing, however, it is calibrated to record force levels FAR ... FAR in excess of anything you can generate with your fingers.
2. No. See answer 1. Above. The whole system has to be assembled and the test weights need to work through the leverage of the ~6"+ crank length to generate meaningful signal levels.
3.I skimmed the wiki and did not take away anything involving Screwdrivers. What I took away was that calibration could involve known weights like large bags of sugar, or flour, or children(!). I can't see how you could simulate a 'known' weight with two Screwdrivers. I would probably be unconscious after two Screwdrivers but your alcohol tolerance might be much higher.
3a. It has been explained to me how the torque sensor works. To have better ideas than the ones in the wiki, I would need to know what exactly is your issue? Is your motor operational or not?

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