New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by AWD » Jan 20, 2018 11:56 am

"lack of integration of at least a consistent throttle"

The throttle on mine works just fine, very consistent. I only use it for starting off and the odd spot where pedaling is inconvenient however. It does perform differently than the throttle on my hub bikes that are tunable due to the CA3. I realize that they make two different systems, one with and one without, probably to address the EU market. Strange they don't always include the brake cutout. I use the slack in my front brake lever like a clutch when I don't want the motor engaged, especially in a technical section of trail where I want to time/ratchet my cranks where you are apt to get a surge of power when you don't want it.

jbalat, did your tear down eliminate the noise? I had the same type of noise I believe that went away installing the brass gear. Thought it was a chunk of the Delrin gear that was missing when I took it apart that was sitting between the gears. It went away but never was really clear as to what caused it and it hasn't returned. Other than the slight growl of the motor in general it is a pretty quiet unit.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by jbalat » Jan 21, 2018 6:09 pm

Much quieter after the service thats for sure but the problem still remains, when I stand on the pedal and use excessive force the crank slips forward about an inch with clack, clack, clack sound.. Definitely internal and not chain slipping.

Either the large clutch bearing or the brass gear is pulling away from the motor gear I'm guessing
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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by AWD » Jan 21, 2018 9:57 pm

That sounds more to me like it might be a problem in the final gear reduction side. Is there plenty of grease in there? I put lots of pressure on my pedals and have never experienced anything like that happening. For sure I am going to open that side up again here next service and have a look though.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Waynemarlow » Jan 22, 2018 12:27 pm

Are you sure its in the engine gears, that pedal movement and noise is so similar to when you change a long over due worn chain and not the rear cassette, the gears are worn to a slightly different pitch to the new chain and by consequence the new chain will skip over the teeth when a lot of torque is applied particularly on the very small gears where only a few links are actually making contact. It always feels as though its on the big crank gears but always its the rear cassette that is worn and has to be changed together with a new chain.

If you are on the ball, change the chain more often than what you would think and you will get 3 or 4 chain changes to 1 cassette, the chain is the cheapest part so treat it as the sacrificial section.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by gaber » Jan 22, 2018 1:09 pm

Waynemarlow wrote:
Jan 22, 2018 12:27 pm
If you are on the ball, change the chain more often than what you would think and you will get 3 or 4 chain changes to 1 cassette, the chain is the cheapest part so treat it as the sacrificial section.
This is good advice. What are you using as the indicator to change the chain well in advance?
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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by jbalat » Jan 23, 2018 3:54 am

Well just confirmed its not the chain.
Motor off
Both brakes on
Stand side on to the bike and watch the chain
Step on peddle hard
Rat tat tat

Arhh!!!i have to assume its the big clutch bearing csk30p since the other side of the motor wouldnt slip without power...

So does anyone know how to remove it ???
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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Waynemarlow » Jan 23, 2018 11:59 am

I'm not sure you would see the chain slip unless you say colour or mark a link. Try the same experiment but with the chain on one of the mid gears with say a zip tie through the chain just behind the sprocket teeth. Only asking as I think the way the sprag clutches work in the bearings would mean it would just slip and would not regain contact until almost all of the torque ( loading ) was off the bearing.

Not doubting just asking an obvious question.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Speady » Jan 23, 2018 1:20 pm

jbalat wrote:
Jan 23, 2018 3:54 am
... the big clutch bearing csk30p...
So does anyone know how to remove it ???
remove the crankarm right side, the chainring spider, the black plastic cover and #2 on picture.
Image
For replacing the clutch bearing inside main gear you need to go to a car repair shop with a stamp press.
Bearings are pretty cheap here and here
The latter (BB30-1k-1) is rated 140Nm but yet untested.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by jbalat » Jan 23, 2018 4:22 pm

Thanks for that. I noticed none of these have the rubber oring like the original ?
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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Daytriker » Jan 23, 2018 5:56 pm

Just an observation & maybe someone can verify. - The big gear plastic cover that has a gasket running on the inside around the perimeter - Should the gasket mount over top of the frame or run alongside the frame? The reason I ask is when tightening up the cover screws, it seems to tighten the cover down enough to cause interference with turning the motor by hand. Backing off the cover screws seems to free up the hand turning. - Thank you.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by thomfellow » Jan 24, 2018 7:11 am

mscoot wrote:
Jan 15, 2018 2:58 pm
That looks like a very tight fit! I'm wondering if there are some subtle differences between the frames that lets the tsdz2 only fit som Bullitts? Let's hope not. The welds on your frame look very big. Perhaps you could make it fit by carefully knocking a few dents in your frame? Or maybe not on such a nice new bike.

Anyway, my frame is an older one from around 2010. After completely grinding away the rear mount of the motor and also grinding away the holes for the securing plate on the left side, it will slide right in and I can wiggle the motor back and forth a couple of mm. There's even a bit of room left for a piece of rubber.
I've been attempting to get it fit, even with grinding away much more than I think is smart, I've already voided the warranty and am looking for a replacement motor body (no luck), may end up buying a used/broken one if I find it somewhere, so I can install it on a different bike later if necessary. If anybody's selling an old broken/used TSDZ2, get in touch. :)

In other news, I think I've figured out what's causing the issue. It looks like the newer frame has a cable guide right next to the BB on the drive-side chainstay on the bottom. It adds a significant amount of thickness to the chainstay and makes the simple removal nearly impossible.
Attachments
bullitt-newer-bb-chainstay01.jpg
bullitt-newer-bb-chainstay02.jpg
bullitt-newer-bb-chainstay03.jpg
bullitt-older-bb-chainstay01.jpg
bullitt-older-bb-chainstay02.jpg

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by mscoot » Jan 24, 2018 3:09 pm

thomfellow wrote:
Jan 24, 2018 7:11 am


I've been attempting to get it fit, even with grinding away much more than I think is smart, I've already voided the warranty and am looking for a replacement motor body (no luck), may end up buying a used/broken one if I find it somewhere, so I can install it on a different bike later if necessary. If anybody's selling an old broken/used TSDZ2, get in touch. :)

In other news, I think I've figured out what's causing the issue. It looks like the newer frame has a cable guide right next to the BB on the drive-side chainstay on the bottom. It adds a significant amount of thickness to the chainstay and makes the simple removal nearly impossible.
I think that even if you do cut away that cable guide you'll still have trouble with the slightly thicker weld at the BB-tube. On my frame theres about 2mm of room between the front top of the motor casings and the frame. Just enough room to shove a piece of rubber in there.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Rydon » Jan 25, 2018 12:28 am

thomfellow wrote:
Jan 24, 2018 7:11 am
In other news, I think I've figured out what's causing the issue. It looks like the newer frame has a cable guide right next to the BB on the drive-side chainstay on the bottom. It adds a significant amount of thickness to the chainstay and makes the simple removal nearly impossible.
I think you are right. I would grind it off. I never hesitate to grind off cable guides, braze-ons, etc. if it looks like they are in the way and it might work. Looks like yours "might" allow the motor to rotate just enough to clear. Also, unless you are worried about warranty issues look how much metal you'v got around that bottom bracket - way more than most bikes. It is super beefy especially with that extra triangle brace welded in. I would even consider taking a few mm's off the bottom to get the clearance you need. :wink: Let the screams begin. :)

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by mscoot » Jan 25, 2018 5:33 am

Rydon wrote:
Jan 25, 2018 12:28 am

I think you are right. I would grind it off. I never hesitate to grind off cable guides, braze-ons, etc. if it looks like they are in the way and it might work. Looks like yours "might" allow the motor to rotate just enough to clear. Also, unless you are worried about warranty issues look how much metal you'v got around that bottom bracket - way more than most bikes. It is super beefy especially with that extra triangle brace welded in. I would even consider taking a few mm's off the bottom to get the clearance you need. :wink: Let the screams begin. :)
I'm screaming. Don't do it like that. At least, cut out and weld in some reinforcements if you do. That part is super critical. It supports all your weight *and* whatever you've got loaded up front. The two places I've seen (worn out) Bullits crack is up front where the frame meets the fork and at the BB-tube.

In fact, if I suspend the bike and run the motor at full power I can see my frame bend to the right back there ever so slightly. There's probably a good reason they beefed this up in the newer models. This is not the place to start cleaning up welds.

But if you are going to start cuting and welding, you might as well put in a proper bosch performance motor in there.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by jbalat » Jan 25, 2018 7:52 pm

Hey guys here is a video showing the problem with slipping. Please comment.
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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by gaber » Jan 25, 2018 8:03 pm

jbalat wrote:
Jan 25, 2018 7:52 pm
Hey guys here is a video showing the problem with slipping. Please comment.
Nothing to add here, just wanted to say that was a great video! I can appreciate a concise and well produced snipit.
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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by jeanl » Jan 26, 2018 11:56 am

jbalat wrote:
Jan 25, 2018 7:52 pm
Hey guys here is a video showing the problem with slipping. Please comment.
First post here guys! I read the entire thread (took me several days) and just placed an order for a 750 TSDZ2 at auto-ebike, can't wait to start the conversion project. This thread has great info, it was worth reading start to end, thanks to all who contributed!

About the above video, I have to say I don't understand... Since the pedal+spider+chainring are just once block once assembled, it seems to me that this has to be the chain slipping, since the chainring is turning when you crank the pedal. Is there something I'm missing here?
Edit: I watched the video a bit more carefully and it's very clear that the chainring isn't moving! My bad
J.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by jbalat » Jan 26, 2018 4:45 pm

They are not connected. The axle connects both pedals, but the one way bearing transfers the pedal force to the chain sprocket.
From the motor side, the motor gear transfers force to the nylon/brass gear and this transfers force to the main gear which is connected to the chain sprocket. If the motor is not driven then the nylon/brass gear also can freewheel so it doesn’t try to drive the motor.
This is my understanding. So unless the chain or rear wheel freewheel on the cluster is slipping (which is clearly not from the video) then it has to be the clutch bearing.

The dealer is not happy with the video, she wants to see a picture of the broken bearing, but visually it still looks ok ??
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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by jeanl » Jan 26, 2018 5:09 pm

jbalat wrote:
Jan 26, 2018 4:45 pm
They are not connected. The axle connects both pedals, but the one way bearing transfers the pedal force to the chain sprocket.
From the motor side, the motor gear transfers force to the nylon/brass gear and this transfers force to the main gear which is connected to the chain sprocket. If the motor is not driven then the nylon/brass gear also can freewheel so it doesn’t try to drive the motor.
This is my understanding. So unless the chain or rear wheel freewheel on the cluster is slipping (which is clearly not from the video) then it has to be the clutch bearing.

The dealer is not happy with the video, she wants to see a picture of the broken bearing, but visually it still looks ok ??
Thanks for the clarification! I haven't received my motor yet, so I didn't understand that part. I'm guessing the idea is that you can ride with full assist, with the motor rotating the chainring without your pedals moving, hence the need for the one way clutch... Hadn't thought of that scenario!

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Waynemarlow » Jan 27, 2018 8:52 am

The clue is in the way the pedal just lets go and never recovers under torque until the pedal is fully down and the poster can't rotate it any further. If it was a toothed section "skipping " over teeth then it would be a series of noises as each set of teeth are over whelmed by the torque. If on the other hand its a sprag clutch type bearing then it will be just 1 release under load and it won't recover until the full load has been totally removed, which as in this case, is when the pedal gets to the bottom.

Sorry to confirm buts it's the bearing that's at fault.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by AWD » Jan 27, 2018 11:12 am

If it wasn't broken before it for sure is now! Be careful.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by wgtnpete » Jan 27, 2018 6:34 pm

wgtnpete wrote:
Jan 18, 2018 9:50 pm
AWD wrote:
Jan 18, 2018 6:19 pm
Have you taken apart and inspected all the connectors? There is a chance the first time you got the motor hot it might have melted one of the outside wires as it sounds like what you are dealing with is a bad connection more than anything else to me. Whether is it at the connectors, in the motor or controller it is a cheap place to start. Could be your battery connection also. I highly recommend spraying a product like T9 Boeshield at all the wires and connections you inspect.
I have done a visual inspection of the connections and the wires and haven't seen anything amiss. I have XT90s on the battery/motor connection. Will see about taking the motor apart to check for obvious issues. I was thinking it could be a battery issue as I had left the bike in the garage for about 2 weeks over Christmas then rode it to work (battery had been left half charged). While the display didnt cut out at all, I got absolutely no assist, no matter what level I selected. When I charged the battery that day it all came alive again, and the ride home was fine, but it did make me concerned.
So i diagnosed the issue in how i had mounted the battery to the downtube. I had stupidly put one of the screws through the plastic a little too close to the battery terminals, and i suspect it was shorting out. I redrilled holes through the aluminium plate and it worked fine for one ride, then power kept cutting out, unless i strapped the battery to one side with velcro ties. I inspected the terminals and found a bit of corrosion on the points so i cleaned those off with deoxit, and thought i was sweet.

Now comes my big screw up. When putting this back together, i somehow mounted the pins the wrong way round and i got a loud bang when trying to slide the battery into the cradle. It looks like the terminals on the underside of the battery are shot, with small holes burnt right through the metal. The pins from the mount look fine. What are the odds that I can get the terminal part replaced, or if the whole thing likely to be shot?

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Waynemarlow » Jan 29, 2018 5:12 pm

Has anyone managed to find a supplier of the 52V controller ( 750W ) and will it raise the cadence level by much. Interesting that Yamaha have had to up the cadence level to 120, presumably from customer requests.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by wakyct » Jan 29, 2018 9:54 pm

Waynemarlow wrote:
Jan 29, 2018 5:12 pm
Has anyone managed to find a supplier of the 52V controller ( 750W ) and will it raise the cadence level by much. Interesting that Yamaha have had to up the cadence level to 120, presumably from customer requests.
Last I saw a forum user here was offering them, this looks like the one? http://recycles-ebike.com/tongsheng-tsd ... brake.html

But I'd check with him to be sure.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by snowbiker » Jan 30, 2018 2:19 am

Does anybody know the reason for the following failure: tsdz2 gives boost only in the 6 km/h mode, not in a normal mode?

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