New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Waynemarlow » Nov 04 2017 4:12pm

itchyfoot42 wrote:Interested in the power cut off when the wheel magnet is out of position. I don't have a sensor cable at all and my TSDZ2 works fine and never have had a power cut out. Is there some other signal, other than speed, that is talking to the controller when you have a sensor cable present? I bought a cable from Germany that didn't match the connector on the TDSZ2. Wondering if I should try to find one that actually works. Other than missing out on an Odometer record, anyone know a reason I should have a working sensor cable?
Perhaps the unit checks to see if there's a sensor inline on power up, if not it ignores it, if it has then it expects to get some feedback of movement.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by itchyfoot42 » Nov 06 2017 8:58pm

Waynemarlow postulated: "Perhaps the unit checks to see if there's a sensor inline on power up, if not it ignores it,"

If this is true then this would also bypass any controller checks to limit the speed of the trike. My 500W 15A TSDZ2 easily gets me to 20mph at level 3 boost but I'm also spinning out at that point. With different gearing I could easily exceed 30mph. Would be interesting if someone who has a trike geared to get 30, or above, at 90 cadence would disconnect their speed sensor and verify that the motor continues to provide boost at 30mph. I'm totally happy with 15-18 mph and will probably continue to seek a cable that will work, primarily to be able to record accumulated motor use.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Daytriker » Nov 06 2017 9:27pm

Anyone know of a source for the TSDZ2 52 tooth Chain ring & I will be able to give you feedback on the motor performance on a trike.
Re-Cycle doesn't have any to sell. Thanks.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by toebs » Nov 07 2017 8:53am

Hi

First message on the board, but have been following on the side for some time.

I installed the TSDZ2 350W on my girlfriends commuter bike about 2 weeks ago. She commutes about 30km 5 days a week. So far she is very pleased with it.

I was actually going to order a small batch (10 pcs) of the TSDZ2 for friends and relatives here in Denmark. However after having read almost all of the (incredibbly many) posts in this thread, I am a little concerned about the reliability.

I have arranged to have the blue gear replaced with the metal version, but seems from forum like extra greease is also needed. If someone can help me understand where this extra grease is needed and how to apply along with a suited grease type, I would be very appreciative.

Also if you live in Europe, and want a TSDZ2 with metal, message me with details, and I can add an extra to my order

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by RTIII » Nov 07 2017 10:34am

Daytriker wrote:Anyone know of a source for the TSDZ2 52 tooth Chain ring & I will be able to give you feedback on the motor performance on a trike.
Re-Cycle doesn't have any to sell. Thanks.
The "original" factory installed gear is a 42T with about a 7mm offset to the inside. This offset reduces how far outboard the chainring is from the bike's centerline. This is important in helping achieve a good chainline - the straighter the better.

Unfortunately, a reasonably sustained effort at finding other offset gears this past summer - just a couple of months ago - led me to conclude that there are no other gears available in this size that have any offset. Rumor has it that there ARE offset gears for other bottom bracket mid-drive units, but our TSDZ2s have a 5 X 110 BCD and these other units have some other specification, and I wasn't looking for them. However, I did find that there are various other spiders to fit other bolt patterns.

This isn't to say you can't run a non-offset gear.

I have a 42T / 52T combination on both my TSDZ2 equipped bikes. In both cases, the 42T is run inboard and has the better chainline while the 52T is outboard. Do note, however, that to do this, I am running an adapter that I made myself that permits the original 42T offset gear to be mounted without disturbing its original position as, at least on my two units, you cannot move the 42T inboard any further than it already is without it coming into contact with the TSDZ2's motor casing (or, actually, the rubber cover that closes off the motor casing).

Both of these dual-chainring TSDZ2 equipped bikes have "build threads", and I made a separate thread to discuss gearing, and the adapter is also discussed there in more detail.

The first, the Raleigh replica (a Legran)... There are some good chainline images - try June 28, 2017 (page 2), and July 27 (page 4),

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... =3&t=88943

The second, a Marin San Rafael Euro - how I got the front derailleur working starts on page 3 with a post dated October 30, 2017:

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... =3&t=89956

The gearing discussion, adapter details on page 1:

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... =2&t=88711

Note that with electrification, there's a lot less need for lower gears unless you have to ride with a dead battery on hilly terrain. Also note that one tends to avoid bad chainline front / rear choices... so I don't often go into the lowest gear in the rear while on the higher gear in front!

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Daytriker » Nov 07 2017 11:10am

Thanks RT111, my install is for a 20 inch rear wheel, recumbent trike so I believe the 52 tooth chain ring will allow for a more relaxed cadence. Tongsheng does offer several different tooth options so I think their offset should be accounted for IF you can find anyone that has them. If I am not mistaken with such a long span of chain running from the front chain ring back to the chain idler the offset should be less of a concern on a trike or am I missing something else?

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by RTIII » Nov 07 2017 11:20am

toebs wrote:[...snip...] However after having read almost all of the (incredibbly many) posts in this thread, I am a little concerned about the reliability.

I have arranged to have the blue gear replaced with the metal version, but seems from forum like extra greease is also needed. If someone can help me understand where this extra grease is needed and how to apply along with a suited grease type, I would be very appreciative.
Hi toebs, welcome to the TSDZ2 world! :D

First, having read this entire thread, I can tell you that there are reports from people with thousands of miles on them and the only known significant failure reported is that there have been two reports of broken axles. This appears to be due to a machined-in notch to accept an axially limiting clip - we here in the USA call them an "e-clip" because they look like a stylized letter E. Both these reported failures took over a thousand miles to show up, and the riders did report heavy loads on their bikes (heavy riders). The second of these two reports said something about the new replacement axle not having this same design feature, so maybe that's a problem of the past. ... There's also a clutch bearing that has been identified as having a rating that's less than would be required for the heavier riders, and indeed, I looked up the bearing's engineering specifications and I can agree, it's under-rated for some of us (like me). The good news is that it's a standard bearing and shouldn't be too hard to source from a local bearing supplier (I have such a supplier within 3 miles of me), and, even if under-rated, failures seem to be quite rare.

Aside from those, the only other report of problems was extremely recent and as yet hasn't been backed up by a second report on what would to me seem like a common occurrence. It was reported about a week ago, if I recall correctly, that someone had problems with their unit getting water ingestion by being used in a very wet environment over an extended period. According to that report, the controller (in the motor assembly) apparently had a problem after a night in the rain, I think, so they swapped it out, and they had a problem with the user-interface which was allowed to dry out and afterward it worked OK. ... On the one hand, I can believe these folks, on the other, I'd expect a lot more reports of water-related issues if there were a serious flaw.

If you do in fact buy something like 10, please see if you can convince them to include ONE spare part I can't seem to get from them! They want to sell me a minimum order of 20, I think, of the rubber cover for the motor housing, but I only need ONE! Even if it is only $1.50 each (or something like that) it makes no sense to have 19 more dying a slow death on my shelf! ... If you wouldn't mind helping with that, send me a PM and I'll give you the part number and so forth.

Happy e-biking!

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by RTIII » Nov 07 2017 11:31am

Daytriker wrote:Thanks RT111, my install is for a 20 inch rear wheel, recumbent trike so I believe the 52 tooth chain ring will allow for a more relaxed cadence.
Yes, likely, and as longer-time experts than me have said - like Chalo here on ES - going with a larger chainring is a preferred, more efficient way to get ones gearings than going really small at the wheel.
Daytriker wrote:Tongsheng does offer several different tooth options so I think their offset should be accounted for IF you can find anyone that has them.
I feel 100% certain that's mistaken: Eyebisickel (sp?) is the only one who advertises them, and I got one, and it's NOT an offset gear, and not made or provided by Tongsheng. However, it is a steel gear and very fairly priced - steel is good here because it's a lot more durable than an alloy of aluminum.
Daytriker wrote:If I am not mistaken with such a long span of chain running from the front chain ring back to the chain idler the offset should be less of a concern on a trike or am I missing something else?
Yes, simple geometry tells us that if you lengthen the distance between two offset planes (each gear at the end points of the chain), the angular offset is reduced. Not only that, but the tiny but real "slop" in each link of the chain accumulates with each link, enabling the chain itself, with sufficient number of links, to accommodate the offset more easily by simply sliding over that tiny amount at each link. The engineering term for this is "tolerance stack-up" and usually it's a bad thing, but in this case, it's helpful! :D

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Daytriker » Nov 07 2017 12:09pm

Thanks very much for your most useful information. I went back & checked the site where I thought there were optional sizes of the chain rings & I should have read the information more carefully. The options are dual chain rings in either 52/42 or 34/42 combinations.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by RTIII » Nov 11 2017 3:07pm

...Anybody got one or two dis-used TSDZ2 BRAKE levers with cut-out switch(es) / wire? ...I could order a new one but was thinking someone may have such a thing laying around, unlikely to see service...

TIA, RTIII

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Daytriker » Nov 11 2017 3:40pm

Hi RT - I may have a set of levers but I will have to check to make sure the plugs are the same as they came on another kit.
\ Just checked, they are 2 pin & the TSDZ2 requires 3 pin connectors.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by magna99 » Nov 11 2017 5:17pm

Hey Daytriker....I'm running a dual front chainring setup on my TSDZ2 powered trike, and it works very nicely. I used regular 34T & 46T 9-speed rings with a chainring guard (bash guard) on the standard TS 110 BCD spider. Used 15mm long chainring bolts and chainguard spacers to mount all 3 to the spider. A standard Shimano SLX FD-M671 handles the shifting perfectly. I also use a dual chainring setup on another trike with a BBS02, again no problem except that for that installation I had to use a direct mount FD with a 100mm BB adapter to move the FD far enuff outward to shift correctly.

Chain line just isn't important on a trike. I've run all kinds of wild front setups, even a Mountain Tamer quad, over the years and have never had an issue with chain line.

Hope this helps you....if you want pictures, I can take some and email 'em to ya....

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Daytriker » Nov 11 2017 7:50pm

Thanks Magna 99, that helps a lot. I am often asked to do installs on different trikes & with some having front suspension, rear suspension, no suspension, factory rear racks, no rear racks or after market rear racks, 20 or 26 inch back wheels it can sometimes make for some varied combinations to get the right gearing & a balanced set up. Add into the mix varying strengths & desired speeds of the rider & my desire to do a good job can take some planning & fore thought. A good example is a recent install I did on a 20 inch Villager as far as I was concerned the cadence was way too fast for comfortable riding but the female rider thought it was perfect as we have a lot of hills around here. Being a bit of a speed freak myself, I may have found a better combination by installing the 42/52 chainring combination. We'll know in a couple of weeks when I report back.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Atrihalov » Nov 14 2017 1:58am

Friends. I want to put a gas knob, but my motor controller has 6 pins. Please, who has a controller for 8 pins, make a photo of the controller macro, see where to solder the wire speed control. Or can there be an electrical circuit controller?

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by amberwolf » Nov 14 2017 2:33am

As far as I have read here, if you have a TSDZ2 without a throttle, you can't add one (the controller won't respond to it). I think most of the posts about that are a few pages back, but you'll want to read thru the thread to see for sure.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Atrihalov » Nov 14 2017 3:36am

I'm interested in trying how it works, for this I need to see the controller with throttle, where this signal comes.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Atrihalov » Nov 14 2017 3:38am

have not put the motor on the bike yet, so I do not know how the assistant works, there is just a regulator on the hall sensor and as an option I want to install it, I have a controller 6 pins, I found the truth on it wire for a 6 volt headlight (turns on from the display) input for the speed regulator is not found. I noticed one thing if the display is held down by the "i" button, the motor starts to rotate.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Marin » Nov 14 2017 11:45am

Atrihalov wrote:have not put the motor on the bike yet, so I do not know how the assistant works, there is just a regulator on the hall sensor and as an option I want to install it, I have a controller 6 pins, I found the truth on it wire for a 6 volt headlight (turns on from the display) input for the speed regulator is not found. I noticed one thing if the display is held down by the "i" button, the motor starts to rotate.
Further back in this thread are links to manuals and instructions for the motor and kit, this may help,

It will explain that holding down the "i" button engages the 6 km walk mode for instance,
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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by bjorsa » Nov 14 2017 3:26pm

Just a quick report on the cadence thing:

I recently received a new motor on warranty, proceeded to modify it with a 36v motor combined with a 48v controller and it works like a charm. Max cadence is now just about perfect, unless you´re extremely fit and pushing it. I highly recommend this solution. A new controller only costs USD 35 @ recycles ebike or auto-ebike. A new motor (if you´re sitting with a 48 v motor) costs 72.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Atrihalov » Nov 15 2017 6:44am

Marin wrote:
Atrihalov wrote:have not put the motor on the bike yet, so I do not know how the assistant works, there is just a regulator on the hall sensor and as an option I want to install it, I have a controller 6 pins, I found the truth on it wire for a 6 volt headlight (turns on from the display) input for the speed regulator is not found. I noticed one thing if the display is held down by the "i" button, the motor starts to rotate.
Further back in this thread are links to manuals and instructions for the motor and kit, this may help,

It will explain that holding down the "i" button engages the 6 km walk mode for instance,
Can you show me where the instructions are?

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by mscoot » Nov 15 2017 8:36am

bjorsa wrote:Just a quick report on the cadence thing:

I recently received a new motor on warranty, proceeded to modify it with a 36v motor combined with a 48v controller and it works like a charm. Max cadence is now just about perfect, unless you´re extremely fit and pushing it. I highly recommend this solution. A new controller only costs USD 35 @ recycles ebike or auto-ebike. A new motor (if you´re sitting with a 48 v motor) costs 72.
Could you explain a little more? Wouldn't the 48V controller read a full 36V battery as empty?

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Marin » Nov 15 2017 11:42am

Atrihalov wrote:
Marin wrote:
Atrihalov wrote:have not put the motor on the bike yet, so I do not know how the assistant works, there is just a regulator on the hall sensor and as an option I want to install it, I have a controller 6 pins, I found the truth on it wire for a 6 volt headlight (turns on from the display) input for the speed regulator is not found. I noticed one thing if the display is held down by the "i" button, the motor starts to rotate.
Further back in this thread are links to manuals and instructions for the motor and kit, this may help,

It will explain that holding down the "i" button engages the 6 km walk mode for instance,
Can you show me where the instructions are?
go to the top of the thread page and put manual in the search this post box, it will come up with all references to manual in the thread, like there's one on page 7 and on page 43, probably more too.
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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by RTIII » Nov 15 2017 11:50am

bjorsa wrote:Just a quick report on the cadence thing:

I recently received a new motor on warranty, proceeded to modify it with a 36v motor combined with a 48v controller and it works like a charm. Max cadence is now just about perfect, unless you´re extremely fit and pushing it. I highly recommend this solution. A new controller only costs USD 35 @ recycles ebike or auto-ebike. A new motor (if you´re sitting with a 48 v motor) costs 72.
Please tell us more: WHY did you do this? What are / were your goals? What's the difference in results (your description on which way the cadence changed is quite UN-clear)... As it is, I'm scratching my head to understand why you tried to combine a nominally 36v motor with a 48v controller and what the results were.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by amberwolf » Nov 15 2017 2:06pm

Assuming the 36v and 48v motors both spin at the same RPM when powered by their respective voltages, then using a 36v motor on a 48v system would result in an RPM 1.333~ times faster than designed, which means a cadence that much faster.


Using a 48v motor on a 36v controller would result in an RPM / cadence 0.75 times slower than normal.


So if you cannot change gearing or sprockets for whatever reason, and need a faster cadence you could do the former, and a slower one you could do the latter.


It will also affect the acceleration/torque curves to do this (play with the motor simulator at http://ebikes.ca/simulator using any motor/controller there, and changing battery voltages and which winding of the motor, like a 3T vs a 4T, to see what I mean). How much depends on the controller and motor and riding situation.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by bjorsa » Nov 19 2017 4:29am

I should have been more specific, jumping in here severeal pages later. Earlier in the thread some of us discussed the low maximum cadence allowed with the TSDZ2. Human maximum power need much higher cadences than the motor can handle. In my case, this messed my knees up and also resulted in a broken torque sensor unit (broken axle) because I pushed slow and hard.

As per standard, the TSDZ2 tapers off any assist around 80-90 cadence rpm. AFAIK there is no easy way to simply switch out gearings so I turned to the electronics instead. Buying the new 52V system would, at least theoretically, boost the cadence by (52/48=) 8.3% which isn´t enough if you want to keep an effective cadence around 90. So I stuffed a replacement 36V inside motor in my 48V unit. Alternatively one can switch the controller of a 36V unit: simply install a 48V controller instead of the original 36V controller. The main thing is to pair a 48V battery with a 36V motor. The controller must match the battery but, alas, not the motor! Nota bene: the controllers have a cut-off and won´t start with overvoltage.

My solution won´t increase torque and shouldn´t put any extra load on the infamous blue nylon gear. In fact, unless you increase amps on the VLCD5 torque will drop, since we will only have traded torque for an rpm increase. The 36V motor is wound differently than the 48V, both delivering the same wattage.

I boosted amps from 16 to 20, matching the original torque, while increasing power output the same 25%, hopefully rather safely. I acknowledge temps will rise, but then again, I live in Sweden, so I´ll be mindful of stressing the motor if summer strikes hot, otherwise I can probable ignore the risk of increased wattage resulting in overheating the motor. For me, this has transformed the TSDZ2 from a lazy-ass sunday excursion motor to a real tempo pusher. The higher cadences allows for a sportier ride and more excercise. It will spare your knees and torque sensor unit too.

Hope this makes everything clear.
Last edited by bjorsa on Nov 21 2017 4:04am, edited 1 time in total.

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