New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by RTIII » Feb 15 2018 2:08pm

pegi600 wrote:
Feb 15 2018 1:53pm
Hello, I recently bought a bicycle engine smf 250 DU 250 it's similar Tsdz2 after connecting i have a error code on Lcdisplay Can you help me?? E03
...I recommend you contact whoever it was who sold you the unit and ask them for support. Any error codes like that will be product specific. If this is a Tongsheng product, you can try emailing them, but I didn't have any luck with that!

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Re: Need help on SFM DU250 mid-drive (was Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor")

Post by mark5 » Feb 15 2018 2:18pm

Can't help but you might ask about your problem here:
https://www.pedelecforum.de/forum/index ... 250.34285/

PDF documentation for your kit:
https://www.sfm-bikes.de/wp-content/upl ... sion_4.pdf
http://downloads.cdn.re-in.de/1300000-1 ... CKTRIT.pdf
says ERR-03 is a control error.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by pegi600 » Feb 15 2018 4:33pm

Thank you for your help. I found some information about this error but no solution :(

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by crazyebot » Feb 16 2018 12:45am

Heh. Many years ago, I owned a Giant Revive. I was beginning to think it was just my imagination. [grins]

Another new user here, who has just read 60 pages of thread in order to get a sense of the viability of installing a TSDz2.

In my case, the plan is to install it on a secondhand Cruzbike Quest 451. It's a frontwheel drive recumbent with 20" wheels, mechanical disc brakes, and a SRAM dual speed 2 gearing system (Single 42 tooth Elliptical chainring and single cassette rear that pulls triple duty via internal gearing).

Here's a stock picture from the internet:
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... And here's a picture after I moved a ebike front hub kit to the cruzbikes rear wheel just to see if it could be done:
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Note the steering column is spun all the way around in the second pic.

I've since reverted thing back to it's pre-ebike state. But man, it was fun to ride... Kinda like sitting in an old Lotus or MG sports car. I'm not convinced a throttle is the best way to go though, so some people at Solarbike in Perth, Western Australia are helping me attach the TS tomorrow morning (I'm buying through them - higher price, sure, but Australian consumer law is awesome so I don't mind paying more. Will also hopefully simply any repair issues down the road).

I have a few questions that might find you guys depending on your time zone, the first is that I'm not sure the fastening bolt will fit the crank/BB design because Cruzbikes have a 'moving' bottom bracket:
comparison.jpg
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Anyone agree or disagree?

Another question is the Elliptical chain ring. It attaches like a standard ring I believe, would there be any issue using it with the mid-drive? Also on that topic, Do you think I'll be able to keep using my existing cranks?

This is all stuff I'll discover tomorrow, but forewarned is forearmed(?)

Thanks to everyone incidentally, who has posted on this thread. It's been a very educational read (... as a person who is not A) A Mech Engineer, B) an Electrical Engineer, or C) a Bicycle Mechanic...)

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by amberwolf » Feb 16 2018 12:56am

crazyebot wrote:
Feb 16 2018 12:45am
Another question is the Elliptical chain ring. It attaches like a standard ring I believe, would there be any issue using it with the mid-drive? Also on that topic, Do you think I'll be able to keep using my existing cranks?
With your legs, the elliptical ring doens't cause issues because you adjust to it and you natureally have varying speed/torque as your legs move around in a circle, which is what teh elliptical ring is intended to take advantage of.

With a motor, it's got constant torque and speed, so using an elliptical ring as the output of the motor/pedal system to the wheel will change that to varying torque and speed. Whetehr taht will be a problem depends on teh degree of eccentricity and your tolerance for it. :)

If it doesn't work out you can always change to a round ring.

With teh motor's assist, you won't likely need the elliptical ring anyway.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Daytriker » Feb 16 2018 1:14am

Installing the motor retaining block shown in the photo looks like it would pose a problem on the Cruzbike as it may not reach far enough to the rear to fit through your chainstays. If that is the case you may have a problem figuring out where to attach a means of preventing the motor from turning under torque. It might just take some McGivering to make a clamp but it's one item to be aware of. The other thing I have found with 20 inch wheels is that the pedal cadence is too fast giving the feeling of spinning out too early. If you install larger chainrings you can slow the cadence but be aware of clearance issues with the motor frame & covers. You may have to either use spacers or a dished chainring.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by crazyebot » Feb 16 2018 1:38am

The retaining block has me worried... But you should see the Magyvering I did to attach a battery to the front of my Elliptigo 8c a couple of years ago. Bittersweetly, while reading this thread I see that there are two commercial (and better) options.

Bottle Bob and B-RAD... If only I knew then, what I know now. ; )

I hadn't considered the effect of varying torque and speed on a constant engine. Thanks Amber and Day. : )

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Re: Need help on SFM DU250 mid-drive (was Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor")

Post by mscoot » Feb 16 2018 6:01am

pegi600 wrote:
Feb 15 2018 1:53pm
Hello, I recently bought a bicycle engine smf 250 DU 250 it's similar Tsdz2 after connecting i have a error code on Lcdisplay Can you help me?? E03
From what I've read, the du250 (and also Schachner, and a few others) is essentially the same as a tsdz2 250w with a few restrictions in the setup. If I remember correctly, you cannot change the max. speed in the du250, right? Afaik its locked to 25 km/h to comply with some strict german legislation. (I've set mine to 27 km/h as the EU pedelec-regulation allows for 25 km/h +/- 10%)

Anyway, I believe the e03 is a controller error of some sort, perhaps triggered by low voltage? I get that too on my tsdz2 when it's really cold out. For me the motor runs fine anyway, and when it heats up outside the error goes away.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by crazyebot » Feb 17 2018 5:10am

So, this is one of those good news, bad news, good news, bad news stories.

The bad news is the bike isn’t currently working.
The good news is that earlier, it did work, and was awesome.
The bad news is I suspect it doesn’t currently work, because the front wheel wasn’t secure, slipped from the dropouts under torque,and jammed the wheel to the chainstay. Now, the LCD screen refuses to start up.
The good news is, until it stopped working, there didn’t seem to be any wobble in the motor, no resistance or drag in the crank or wheel, and it was dead silent at 46km (pedalling). Changes were all very smooth.

So it’s another hour plus trip to the store tomorrow. One aside. The small LCD I have is too small for my ageing (43 years) eyes, but the 48v 500w kit doesn’t come with the large LCD?

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by amberwolf » Feb 17 2018 2:05pm

If the jam caused an overcurrent at the battery from too much controller current draw, you might just have a blown fuse in the battery.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by crazyebot » Feb 17 2018 5:36pm

Hey Amber,

In that scenario, would the battery still appear to charge as normal (which it did) ?

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by tomjasz » Feb 17 2018 6:30pm

I really want this to be a successful motor, but so far I have had none of the problems with 4 BBSxx motors. Just no torque sensing. I'm about to end the pain and just go all geared hub drives with decent torque sensors for Axel systems. Nuff. Unless one really NEEDS a mid drive. I still think the TSDZ is better built than the BBSxx series, and simpler, but just not quite up to snuff.... I have three displays and haven't a clue as to the controller each one works with. But I have to say the company is pretty responsive. Much more so than Bafang. I predict a good future as long as EU sales hold up and US sales increase.
Thanks Justin_le we're here thanks to you. All the best to the mods for their tireless work keeping it on an even keel.

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Re: Need help on SFM DU250 mid-drive (was Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor")

Post by pegi600 » Feb 17 2018 6:43pm

mscoot wrote:
Feb 16 2018 6:01am
pegi600 wrote:
Feb 15 2018 1:53pm
Hello, I recently bought a bicycle engine smf 250 DU 250 it's similar Tsdz2 after connecting i have a error code on Lcdisplay Can you help me?? E03
From what I've read, the du250 (and also Schachner, and a few others) is essentially the same as a tsdz2 250w with a few restrictions in the setup. If I remember correctly, you cannot change the max. speed in the du250, right? Afaik its locked to 25 km/h to comply with some strict german legislation. (I've set mine to 27 km/h as the EU pedelec-regulation allows for 25 km/h +/- 10%)

Anyway, I believe the e03 is a controller error of some sort, perhaps triggered by low voltage? I get that too on my tsdz2 when it's really cold out. For me the motor runs fine anyway, and when it heats up outside the error goes away.


I bough the kit (smf Du250 whit battery) mounts on the bike I connect the plug see the screen with the speed function then this error EO3? yes i have instructionsand i see there controller error, can you tell me can i bought this part or this is it something in the engine?
thank you for the hints the battery is charged and I still have this code errors and the engine unfortunately does not work.
sorry for my english I use a translator :p

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by crazyebot » Feb 17 2018 8:35pm

It turns out nothing was broken. Somehow the rectangular connector between the battery cable and everything else became disconnected. Picked up the error this morning and saved myself a trip back to the bike shop. :)

Pictures (And numbers).

It's the Solarbike rebranded 48v 500w version. I don't think I need the power, but after reading this thread I thought I'd go for a younger model(?)

I've coupled it with a 48v, 10A Tiger Shark battery. The Cruzbike Quest's 451's e-ring is now sitting in a box: The new crankset has longer arms, but they also appear to be slightly more offset, which is helping with the 'heel clipping the derailleur' issue I had. The mid-drive comes with a little/compact LCD screen and a separate throttle, so I have options in case I injure my leg(s) I guess.
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This is compared to my rear hub config, which was: Rear Hub motor (also 500w) with a 48v, 14A battery and throttle. Shorter 155mm crank arms and the e-ring. Weight was all in the rear.

I haven't ridden the mid-drive any distances yet, just a couple of trips down the street. At this early stage, I think I prefer the added weight and stiffness at the front, as it adds stability at higher speeds... but after a ride to work tomorrow I'll know if over a distance that stiffness comes at a cost to my arms and legs.

I'm worried about the lack of SRAM Anti-rotation washers (We've tightened up the washers that I do have significantly). I suspect that when the bike's previous owners had new wheels made, they forgot to put the anti-rotation washers back on. Shout out to Henry at Solarbike in Fremantle, Western Australia for spotting their absence. I suspect he's saved me a whole lot of grief.

I don't know what kind of distances a 10A battery will get me, but I can say that at the 2nd power assist setting (of 4), I could get into the 3rd gear+smallest ring and pedal (hard) at around 46km.
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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by zro-1 » Feb 17 2018 10:00pm

Oh man! I really love how you have the motor and battery mounted on that. Very nice job.

I saw that you had problems with your battery connection, and figured I'd share my experience since I have a similar pack. I have a battery enclosure (maybe the same) that I got from Luna Cycles, and I started having issues with the battery connection between the pack and the mount it slides on to. The whole system would just randomly shut off without warning and not from hitting any particular bump. The battery was not loose and shaking around either.

It turns out—in my case—that in the battery pack, they connect all 4 connector spring pincers (not sure what to call them), but in the frame-mount, they only connect the outer 2 pins that the pincers slide on to. After a while of use, I found that the spring pincers that connect to the pins begin to loosen, and the negative side ended up overheating (probably from arching across the loose connection). So what I did was solder some wire between the middle pins and their respective outer pins to fully match what's connected in the battery enclosure. Once I did that, I haven't had any issues with the connection between my pack and the rest of the system.

I hope that helps you with your build.
~01~

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Raisedeyebrows » Feb 17 2018 10:09pm

Cruzbike looks like an exciting ride, It must handle like a slot car. Does the fact the crankset is quite a ways in front of the steering tube stabilize the steering? It's been about 30 years since I've ridden a similar bike, I remember it being a lot of fun although I didn't go very fast on it.
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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by crazyebot » Feb 18 2018 2:17am

Hi Raised, it's pretty great. The design is really good for long distances (not that I've ridden many), you get a lot of distance for your pedal.

The model I have has 20" wheels, so its not all free rolling though. ; )

Interesting thing about the motor placement: the metal mold of the casing on the left hand side (if you're facing the bike from the front) sits on the bottom bracket, and a bolt eyelet (again from the casing) overlaps the chain stay a little, providing some natural stabilisation.

I was worried about the fact I couldn't mount the fastener, but maybe (crosses fingers) things will be okay.

Still worried about the anti-rotation washers. Why does everyone who makes internal gear hubs have to have their own anti-rotation washer specs? Sheesh.

I'll be keeping an eye on the battery connections Zro. Cheers. : )

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by amberwolf » Feb 18 2018 2:56am

crazyebot wrote:
Feb 17 2018 5:36pm

In that scenario, would the battery still appear to charge as normal (which it did) ?
Generaly, yes, as the fuse is usually only in the discharge connector, and the charge connector is usually separate.

Not that it matters in this case, as the disconnect was the problem. :)

Regarding range, 10Ah is likely to get you 20 miles at 20MPH, at minimum, even if you didn't pedal, for your system and bike. Possibly asmuch as 40 miles, depending on terrain and wind and pedalling; lower speeds could be more.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by AWD » Feb 18 2018 8:43am

It is a bit hard to see as the crank arm is in the way in both shots but I do see you used the tabbed plate and it looks like it is fastened to the motor housing by at least one bolt. This is good and sufficient to keep the motor from rocking sideways. Can't tell what you have done though to compensate for not being able to use the back hold down whose function is to keep the motor from rotating forwards when torque is applied? You don't need the fasteners but you should put something in between the motor housing and the bb shell that will keep the housing from direct contact. A piece of hard rubber or similar would work.

I ran into the anti-rotation washer issue myself recently while installing an Alfine hub. The reason behind having to have more than one is the orientation of the drop out requires different styles.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by crazyebot » Feb 19 2018 3:26am

Thanks AWD, I’ll take your advice on the rubber to separate the motor housing from the bikes MBB.

I found a spec sheet for the SRAM dual drive 3, which appears to have a lot in common with my drive. The diagram indicates that there are two washer types that can be used. One of them is the type currently on my bike. My guess is the other type( with the lug) wasn’t used because the cruzbikes dropout orientation is non standard, so the textured washer was used as it accommodates.

Just need to remember to keep the nuts tight on that front wheel.

Side note: discovered I had a bent hanger on my derailleur, which accounts for my lack of success in getting smooth gear changes. A nearby bike shop carved out some time and set me straight (slight pun intended). It’s easy to forget, but people can be really nice.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by crazyebot » Feb 19 2018 8:10pm

A few more photos, and one last observation. When lightly pedaling at very slow speeds (i.e. negotiating/navigating with foot traffic), there's a slight 'rumble' in the motor that you feel in your feet (transmitted via the crank arms, presumably). Is it strange that I kinda like it? I'm hoping it's not a sign that I'm doing something dumb, or an indication of a problem with the product.
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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Daytriker » Feb 19 2018 8:23pm

Could you please confirm? - Have you tried pedaling with this motor turned OFF? Do you get much resistance through the pedals? How about with the Power turned on but with the power level set to OFF? Any difference in the resistance?
I have a distant customer that is getting a lot of resistance in the motor so I am trying to diagnose if this is normal. Thanks for your help.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by itchyfoot42 » Feb 19 2018 10:26pm

crazy, I get the same "rumble" in the feet with slow easy pedaling. If I am where congestion will cause it for a period of time I switch the power to off (ran into that riding with a dozen trikes in a parade Saturday - lots of start - slow - stop - repeat).

I have no resistance with the battery off, or with the battery on and power set to off.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by AWD » Feb 20 2018 12:09am

I forget if you have the brass gear or not but it does growl a bit at low cadence under activation and also under high torque. It is just the motor turning at a lower rpm and you can hear the gears meshing.

I also don't get any resistance in 0 mode either power on or off. Bike pedals as normal on flat ground but as soon as it turns upwards you have to start grabbing gears as you are on a heavy bike!

If that guy is having issues with resistance with the power on there is something electronically wrong as you probably know. That leaves the controller, the torque sensor and the display. Discount the motor itself unless the shaft doesn't spin freely. All those items are replaceable of course it is just figuring out which one it is and I can't help with that from here.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by crazyebot » Feb 20 2018 12:14am

Hi Daytriker, I get no pedal resistance when the power is off. I have pretty low tolerances for pedal resistance having bounced off e-bikes 5-10 years ago for that reason.

There's wheel resistance if you spin the wheel in reverse, but I think that's expected(?)

Itchyfoot42, thanks for the tip. The whole issue of the torque settings getting screwed up if you add torque to the pedal (as you're powering on) has me paranoid enough to ignore common sense. I do kinda like the feel though. : }

A couple of other things - you might not be able to see it from the photos, but the bike has a SRAM dual 2 on the front wheel. When I was riding in this morning I was getting drops that I was afraid were issues with the motor. My fears were unfounded. The issue was just that I had a guy unfamiliar with the drive making some adjustments yesterday and he'd set the cable tension too tight, which was causing the drive to jump between the 2nd and 3rd (virtual? What's the correct term?) gear.

A bit of youtube, some cursing, and a quarter twist of the barrel later and I think I'm good to go. : )

Whoop - missed your post AWD. Thanks for the insight - I have the plastic gear (bought and installed the motor over the weekend).

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