New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Discussions related to motors other than hub motors.
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casainho   100 MW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by casainho » May 03 2018 2:47pm

Thank you for the feedback. I am 220 pounds/100kg.

Yes, unfortunately the way I am used to drive, I tend to full brake at some times while pushing the pedals and I decided to install the brakes, maybe I should...

Maybe I will definitely decrease the torque acceleration curve on our custom firmware and use the brakes. Also I don't know for sure how much current the controller is using with the original firmware.
Last edited by casainho on May 03 2018 2:51pm, edited 1 time in total.
Developer of the Flexible OpenSource firmware for EBike motor controllers (TSDZ2 and KT) and LCDs (KT-LCD3 and Bafang 850C color LCD).

If you like my work, please consider making a donation. I am being using the donations to buy needed resources for my developments. My paypal: casainho AT gmail.com.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by hobbyvac » May 03 2018 2:50pm

I suspect the answer to blue gear failures would become more apparent if everyone rode with a wattmeter inline with the battery. The motor won't give any indication of strain when asked for full power but you may be surprised at the times when its being heavily loaded and when its not. For instance its fairly hard to pull significant amperage when your cadence is up but its very easy to inadvertantly hit the maximum at lower pedal speeds.

This happens every single time when I let someone test ride my bike. I try to give it to them in a low gear,.. then they upshift a few times and slow to turn around, then jump on the pedals again because the surge is so satisfying. The wattmeter shows the high amperage but the rider feels nothing but a satisfying boost.

Even myself there are times when Im trail riding at a good pace but have to brake hard for a crossing squirrel, then continue pedaling. I try to ease back into it but you can feel the motor growl just a tiny bit because of the high gear and low speed. I just have more margin for abuse with 36 volts.

casainho   100 MW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by casainho » May 03 2018 2:54pm

hobbyvac wrote:
May 03 2018 2:50pm
I suspect the answer to blue gear failures would become more apparent if everyone rode with a wattmeter inline with the battery. The motor won't give any indication of strain when asked for full power but you may be surprised at the times when its being heavily loaded and when its not. For instance its fairly hard to pull significant amperage when your cadence is up but its very easy to inadvertantly hit the maximum at lower pedal speeds.
Yes, the LCD is so bad that doesn't show amperage :-(
My motivation to start developing the firmware for the LCD3 and put it working with our firmware for TSDZ2.
Developer of the Flexible OpenSource firmware for EBike motor controllers (TSDZ2 and KT) and LCDs (KT-LCD3 and Bafang 850C color LCD).

If you like my work, please consider making a donation. I am being using the donations to buy needed resources for my developments. My paypal: casainho AT gmail.com.

hobbyvac   100 mW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by hobbyvac » May 03 2018 4:39pm

Thank you casainho for putting in all the hard work. I wish I could contribute more but I am electronically challenged and just happy if I don't hook up the battery backwards. I try to follow along with what you are doing but my only skill is pointing out problems. I'm sure many appreciate your work and I hope you can find a way to make some money off of those you help. I would gladly pay for the information I need to change settings on my controller. It would have to be a very simple interface for me to understand.

casainho   100 MW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by casainho » May 03 2018 6:15pm

hobbyvac wrote:
May 03 2018 4:39pm
I'm sure many appreciate your work and I hope you can find a way to make some money off of those you help. I would gladly pay for the information I need to change settings on my controller. It would have to be a very simple interface for me to understand.
No money but there is a good friend from here that will send to me some controllers so I can play.

I am being paid to work on this area. Doing all this because I like to learn but mainly a contribution for a greener enviorement - I want to be this father, in the hope to help for a better world to my son.
Developer of the Flexible OpenSource firmware for EBike motor controllers (TSDZ2 and KT) and LCDs (KT-LCD3 and Bafang 850C color LCD).

If you like my work, please consider making a donation. I am being using the donations to buy needed resources for my developments. My paypal: casainho AT gmail.com.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by fantasy2 » May 04 2018 3:44am

casainho wrote:
May 02 2018 5:06pm
Loving the first hours and ride with TSDZ2 48V version - very good torque!! At least from my limited experience.

I had to climb some hills and I wounder if I was riding with best bicycle gear so the motor is most efficient possible, assuming there are some motor speed range were it happens. Does anyone know if there is a speed range where this happens?? If so, could we calculate in any way, could the firmware calculate and indicate on the LCD like the cards does?
Where did you get this version?

PWSPower sells an 48Volt 750Watt version, however they say it doesn't support 58.4Volt which makes me wonder if there is another version.

http://www.pswpower.com/peng/iview.asp? ... GJ4P.8DSJC

I'm looking into the possibility to replace the blue helix gear with a belt. I have the machines available to machine pulleys in the right size and it could potentially make it more quiet and robust. There seems to be space to do it. Can someone measure the diameter and thickness of the blue gear and the one on the motor? I'd like to do some calculations if this is feasible.

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John and Cecil   1 kW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by John and Cecil » May 04 2018 8:52am

I believe the 52v version of the motor supports the larger battery. My 48v version I bought from pswpower only supports up to a 55.8v battery, anything over that and the wheel will not spin. Supposedly the 48v motor can be upgraded with a 52v controller ($40-50 part) to allow use of 14s batteries but I have yet to see any of those controllers for sale yet. I do like my 52v battery on my 48v motor though, but I can only charge it to 55.8v. I guess with the right charger it might be worthwhile since the battery will probably get a lot more recharging cycles when under charging.

Here is a link to the 52v version motor for sale on aliexpress now:

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/FREE-SH ... autifyAB=0




Maybe lower gearing would help Casainho? My bike at the moment will do 30mph at 90rpms in 1st gear. There is no way I will be going that fast unless I am going down hill, With all my weight plus Cecil and also our 3" mid fat tires 25mph is closer to our actual top speed when pedaling so I am going to drop a few teeth on the chainring. I also want to upgrade my cassette from 11-32 to 11-40. The lower the gearing the less likely to blow out that gear. I hope you can get a replacement soon, I have been thinking about ordering one myself in case it goes so I won't have to wait for it to arrive.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by John and Cecil » May 04 2018 9:11am

casainho wrote:
May 03 2018 2:47pm
Thank you for the feedback. I am 220 pounds/100kg.

Yes, unfortunately the way I am used to drive, I tend to full brake at some times while pushing the pedals and I decided to install the brakes, maybe I should...

Maybe I will definitely decrease the torque acceleration curve on our custom firmware and use the brakes. Also I don't know for sure how much current the controller is using with the original firmware.
You can also try initializing the motor every time you ride while pedaling at 10-20rpm's, this way the power will cut out quicker when your pedaling slows. I do this sometimes to decrease the power at takeoff. You are right that the firmware could use a better acceleration curve.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by casainho » May 04 2018 9:12am

When I developed the firmware, I didn't put any limit and I tested the motor and it did run up to input voltage of 60V (max voltage of that lab power supply):


Here are the firmware source files (C programming language), for TSDZ2 controller, that put motor running that way: https://github.com/OpenSource-EBike-fir ... r_firmware

Voltage
• Controller can run the motor from 20V battery input up to at least 60V (this values were tested)
◇ 20V will work for a 7S battery (min voltage per cell = 2.86V)
◇ 60V will work for a 14S battery
◇ controller capacitors on input voltage line are rated at 63V
Developer of the Flexible OpenSource firmware for EBike motor controllers (TSDZ2 and KT) and LCDs (KT-LCD3 and Bafang 850C color LCD).

If you like my work, please consider making a donation. I am being using the donations to buy needed resources for my developments. My paypal: casainho AT gmail.com.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by AWD » May 04 2018 9:14am

fantasy2 wrote:
May 04 2018 3:44am
casainho wrote:
May 02 2018 5:06pm
Loving the first hours and ride with TSDZ2 48V version - very good torque!! At least from my limited experience.

I had to climb some hills and I wounder if I was riding with best bicycle gear so the motor is most efficient possible, assuming there are some motor speed range were it happens. Does anyone know if there is a speed range where this happens?? If so, could we calculate in any way, could the firmware calculate and indicate on the LCD like the cards does?
Where did you get this version?

PWSPower sells an 48Volt 750Watt version, however they say it doesn't support 58.4Volt which makes me wonder if there is another version.

http://www.pswpower.com/peng/iview.asp? ... GJ4P.8DSJC

I'm looking into the possibility to replace the blue helix gear with a belt. I have the machines available to machine pulleys in the right size and it could potentially make it more quiet and robust. There seems to be space to do it. Can someone measure the diameter and thickness of the blue gear and the one on the motor? I'd like to do some calculations if this is feasible.
I don't think this is at all possible with the blue gear as it interfaces with the steel drive gear on the motor shaft directly with very little distance between the two overall. For the time being the brass gear, with Lucas Red and Tacky instead of the wimpy white stock stuff, works and is available.

But if you want to look into replacing the final reduction which is a small gear meshing with a large one and made out of heavy steel with nylon gears and kevlar belt system I'll be your first customer. It would shave at least a half a kilo off the motor and quiet the system down a lot as all the noise, as little as it is, is not the result of the blue gear. Count some motor noise in there also.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by John and Cecil » May 04 2018 9:52am

casainho wrote:
May 04 2018 9:12am
When I developed the firmware, I didn't put any limit and I tested the motor and it did run up to input voltage of 60V (max voltage of that lab power supply):
I think what you are saying is you hacked the firmware to support battery voltages between 20-60v? That would be great since I would like to buy those 24v max batteries and hook them up in a series for a 12s 4ah configuration that is also airline approved :)

I have flashed firmware in computer devices and motherboards but never for a motor. I assume there is some sort of connector I need to buy to connect a laptop to the motor?

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by casainho » May 04 2018 9:54am

John and Cecil wrote:
May 04 2018 9:52am
casainho wrote:
May 04 2018 9:12am
When I developed the firmware, I didn't put any limit and I tested the motor and it did run up to input voltage of 60V (max voltage of that lab power supply):
I think what you are saying is you hacked the firmware to support battery voltages between 20-60v? That would be great since I would like to buy those 24v max batteries and hook them up in a series for a 12s 4ah configuration that is also airline approved :)
I didn't hacked!! I simple developed from scratch.
Developer of the Flexible OpenSource firmware for EBike motor controllers (TSDZ2 and KT) and LCDs (KT-LCD3 and Bafang 850C color LCD).

If you like my work, please consider making a donation. I am being using the donations to buy needed resources for my developments. My paypal: casainho AT gmail.com.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by John and Cecil » May 04 2018 10:10am

casainho wrote:
May 04 2018 9:54am

I didn't hacked!! I simple developed from scratch.
Sorry. If you did not change the voltage setting then I guess there are other changes that you made as well in your firmware?

casainho   100 MW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by casainho » May 04 2018 10:14am

John and Cecil wrote:
May 04 2018 10:10am
casainho wrote:
May 04 2018 9:54am

I didn't hacked!! I simple developed from scratch.
Sorry. If you did not change the voltage setting then I guess there are other changes that you made as well in your firmware?
The motor controller electronic board just works from 20V up to 60V, as I wrote before. The embedded software/firmware on the motor controller electronic board can be developed with some limits or not, I just didn't put any limit. The embedded software/firmware can read the battery voltage and with this, decide if want to stop working over the full range of 20V up to 60V, and work maybe only on the range for 36V batteries or 48V batteries -- there should be some different versions of the embedded software/firmware on the factory, they just program the controllers at the end of the production line.
Developer of the Flexible OpenSource firmware for EBike motor controllers (TSDZ2 and KT) and LCDs (KT-LCD3 and Bafang 850C color LCD).

If you like my work, please consider making a donation. I am being using the donations to buy needed resources for my developments. My paypal: casainho AT gmail.com.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by hobbyvac » May 04 2018 12:03pm

I would love to be able to browse a checklist of settings, make my selections then ship the controller to someone to apply the settings.

Otherwise It would have to be pretty simple for me to do it myself. A similar example is the electronic speed controls used by radio controlled modelers. The manufacturer sells you a little programming gizmo with plugs and simple software for your PC. Just click on the check boxes you want and it does the work. If you don't have the optional programmer, the R/C speed controls can also use a cryptic system of on-board buttons, beeps and lights to do the same thing but much more slowly.

Old people like me would rather flip switches and turn knobs :roll:

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by gggplaya » May 04 2018 12:05pm

gggplaya wrote:
May 01 2018 4:24pm
Waynemarlow wrote:
May 01 2018 3:56pm
Considering the existing way all these little units transform rpm to very slow rpm at the drive unit then its only going to be a short time before they just add one more layer of planetary gears and a micro PC shifter and we could have all the speeds we ever need without any rear shifting needed.

I guess its just cost and development that a company has to outlay.
Nuvinci has already shown plans to integrate their cvt into a mid drive motor.
Actually it's already in production, but only available in europe for now. $4500 bike: https://www.ebike-manufaktur.com/en/kat ... ntal-600wh

ZF also signed a deal with Magura to work on e-mobility, or small 2,3,4 wheel electrified systems. It'll be interesting to see what they develop.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by casainho » May 04 2018 12:28pm

Yes!! I will put LCD3 working with TSDZ2!!
casainho wrote:
May 04 2018 12:25pm
Very first code to run on LCD3!! This code waits for a press on the DOWN BUTTON to enable/disable the LCD backlight.

Source code is here: https://github.com/OpenSource-EBike-fir ... 3_firmware

Developer of the Flexible OpenSource firmware for EBike motor controllers (TSDZ2 and KT) and LCDs (KT-LCD3 and Bafang 850C color LCD).

If you like my work, please consider making a donation. I am being using the donations to buy needed resources for my developments. My paypal: casainho AT gmail.com.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by fantasy2 » May 04 2018 1:08pm

John and Cecil wrote:
May 04 2018 8:52am
I believe the 52v version of the motor supports the larger battery. My 48v version I bought from pswpower only supports up to a 55.8v battery, anything over that and the wheel will not spin. Supposedly the 48v motor can be upgraded with a 52v controller ($40-50 part) to allow use of 14s batteries but I have yet to see any of those controllers for sale yet. I do like my 52v battery on my 48v motor though, but I can only charge it to 55.8v. I guess with the right charger it might be worthwhile since the battery will probably get a lot more recharging cycles when under charging.

Here is a link to the 52v version motor for sale on aliexpress now:

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/FREE-SH ... autifyAB=0
Thanks!! I guess I'm just too excited to work with this motor but without having one it's so difficult :lol: .
AWD wrote:
May 04 2018 9:14am
I don't think this is at all possible with the blue gear as it interfaces with the steel drive gear on the motor shaft directly with very little distance between the two overall. For the time being the brass gear, with Lucas Red and Tacky instead of the wimpy white stock stuff, works and is available.

But if you want to look into replacing the final reduction which is a small gear meshing with a large one and made out of heavy steel with nylon gears and kevlar belt system I'll be your first customer. It would shave at least a half a kilo off the motor and quiet the system down a lot as all the noise, as little as it is, is not the result of the blue gear. Count some motor noise in there also.
Hmm, I looked at the other gear, which is probably most likely generating most of the noise as helical gears like the nylon gear should be more quiet than a spur gear. However, I think you have to machine part of the housing away before you can add a belt? We could try a helical gear first over there.
casainho wrote:
May 04 2018 10:14am
The motor controller electronic board just works from 20V up to 60V, as I wrote before. The embedded software/firmware on the motor controller electronic board can be developed with some limits or not, I just didn't put any limit. The embedded software/firmware can read the battery voltage and with this, decide if want to stop working over the full range of 20V up to 60V, and work maybe only on the range for 36V batteries or 48V batteries -- there should be some different versions of the embedded software/firmware on the factory, they just program the controllers at the end of the production line.
Perfect. Based on this I would guess the electronics is the same and tong sheng just delivers what is being asked by a certain customer. As 48Volt systems are the max allowed in europe(otherwise it would be defined as high voltage), I would guess this is where the limit came from.

Can't wait to join you guys in testing and developing!

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by qwerkus » May 04 2018 3:44pm

casainho wrote:
May 04 2018 12:28pm
Yes!! I will put LCD3 working with TSDZ2!!
Nice going casainho. By the speed you are progressing, you'll be finished before my stuff comes from china...

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by jeanl » May 04 2018 6:44pm

casainho wrote:
May 04 2018 12:28pm
Yes!! I will put LCD3 working with TSDZ2!!
casainho wrote:
May 04 2018 12:25pm
Very first code to run on LCD3!! This code waits for a press on the DOWN BUTTON to enable/disable the LCD backlight.

Source code is here: https://github.com/OpenSource-EBike-fir ... 3_firmware

Extremely cool!!! I'm super excited to see your progress!!!!

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by anttipaa » May 05 2018 2:20pm

Is this that new LB01 kit?
https://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/v ... 1d5da18f36

Anyone ordered? :) I dont like that display..
Canyon Torque + ?

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by asterduc » May 08 2018 4:24pm

got my 36V/350W TSDZ2 midmotor with LCD5 and 13.6 Ah battery yesterday.
Originally I wanted to build it up on an old classic dutch bike but decided not to do so because of the chainline and the fact that these bikes run with a thick 1/2 x 1/8 chain.

Alternatively I had a 90's black Cannondale M400 Caad 2 alumium frame and a 1965 Gazelle Superlicht in lightweight Reynolds tubing available, which I finally choose for. This Gazelle bike was in fact a converted racebike with fenders and carrier.

I made a few wheels, Weinmann alurims with Normandy Aluhubs and 6 speed Huret group.
Braking power with NOS alumium Weinmann all around and SR stem and handlebar.
Lots of shining retro lightweight.
Tires are 32-622

Installing the motor, battery and display took me less time than installing the fenders.
Really easy if all fits nicely which I think it does in most cases.

There was little play in the right sided bracket. I added 2 windings of black teflon and taped the end to keep it steady while entering the brackethouse. This made it a perfect fit.
20180507_212737_resized.jpg
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Since the old steel frame does not have bottle mountings, I used 2 Huret single-shifter clamps to make a fixing base for the battery. This worked well, so far.
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Battery and motor in metal grey would have made it look better, but it is what it is.
I'm happy for now. It defenitely looks different from the general ebike population today.
Contrary to most of the ebikes this is realy lightweight. I pull it up in the air with just 2 fingers
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First riding impression:
!! fantastic !!
I left the speed sensor disconnected during the test driving to reach the higher speeds.
Just noticed that this speed limit can be deactivated in the LCD5.

I test drove an expensive ebike (MTB with balloon tires) with Bosch midmotor a few months ago.
There was a 'click' everytime the Bosch motor started to work. Thus I thought that was common for torque controlled midmotors.
Not on the TSDZ2. You realy need to listen carefully to the motor to notice that it is working. It all goes that smooth.
The old Gazelle lightweight bike drives very fast and handles well, you would not need a motor.
Because of that, the ECO stand does not do much, at least that is my conclusion. Therefore I'm running the bike in ROAD or SPEED.
TURBO makes it fly!!

I learned a lot from the many posts in this topic, which let me decide to choose for this motor and I don't regret it. Thanks.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by jeanl » May 08 2018 5:04pm

Nice clean installation!

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by AWD » May 08 2018 10:10pm

Beautiful build! One thing I would suggest is to put a strap of some sort, I would recommend leather on that build, around the battery and dt. Safety first, especially as you aren't using braze ons, which by no means are the best method of attaching the plate.

Silver tandem cranks, make some grey panels for the battery the same color as the frame. Chrome plate the motor cover, powder coat the rest of the housing the frame color etc.. You are obviously a person of taste and mechanical means so I'm sure all further mods will be right for the bike although it is most commonly used.

Have you weighed it yet?

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by asterduc » May 10 2018 6:06am

AWD wrote:
May 08 2018 10:10pm
Have you weighed it yet?
15.18 kg without battery
17.74 kg with battery
Gazelle SuperLicht eBike conversion.jpg

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