New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

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casainho   100 MW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by casainho » May 11 2018 11:17pm

I got the motor running using SVM and so it is much more silent than using block commutation/6 steps. See the comparison between the 2 videos showing motor running with block commutation VS SVM.

It is near silent as original firmware and also uses less current when running as seen on the video: 1.02A VS 1.25A.

Block commutation:


SVM:
Developer of the Flexible OpenSource firmware for EBike motor controllers (TSDZ2 and KT) and LCDs (KT-LCD3 and Bafang 850C color LCD).

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casainho   100 MW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by casainho » May 12 2018 3:56am

Now that I have the TSDZ2 motor running silently, my next target is to implement FOC that will let us take the most possible from the motor and battery!! See the practical results a tester got with FOC enable VS FOC disabled, on our firmware for KT motor controllers:
casainho wrote:
May 12 2018 3:37am
geofft wrote:
May 12 2018 2:50am
casainho wrote:Also, I tested with FOC disabled, with motor current of 3.5 A and found almost no difference in the results: almost the same battery current and speed - I guess a difference may be seen at higher currents, maybe I will try again with 10A using my battery instead of the lab power supply.
FOC definitely makes a difference. I found (on training roller, wheel heavily loaded) with FOC disabled full throttle could only achieve 14mph, with FOC re-enabled this rose to 18.5mph with the motor sounding much more lively.
An increase of 4.5mph/7.2km/h with motor heavily load is a BIG gain!!
Developer of the Flexible OpenSource firmware for EBike motor controllers (TSDZ2 and KT) and LCDs (KT-LCD3 and Bafang 850C color LCD).

If you like my work, please consider making a donation. I am being using the donations to buy needed resources for my developments. My paypal: casainho AT gmail.com.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by fantasy2 » May 12 2018 4:56am

casainho wrote:
May 11 2018 11:17pm
I got the motor running using SVM and so it is much more silent than using block commutation/6 steps. See the comparison between the 2 videos showing motor running with block commutation VS SVM.

It is near silent as original firmware and also uses less current when running as seen on the video: 1.02A VS 1.25A.

Block commutation:


SVM:
Nice work!
I guess the lower current is because of a lower peak current. Can you confirm the RPM is exactly the same?

BTW, I ordered the LingBei motor, I really like the mechanics in it. Going to open it up and see what electronics is inside. I hope we can build a combined firmware!

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Waynemarlow » May 12 2018 6:36am

OK, I think there are a number of us out there who are not programmers but can say take a Bafung interface wire, take a program like those available for the Bafung and reprogramme our motors. The next step to really get this tested would be to create an interface between the likes of myself ( who can use a basic PC programme and reprogramme my Bafung ) and Casainho's work which I have to say looks very promising, thanks Casainho and the others working with him.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Waynemarlow » May 12 2018 6:55am

The program I was referring to was the program from Stephen Penov which is really good to use.

fantasy2   10 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by fantasy2 » May 12 2018 7:04am

Casainho already made a page for it: viewtopic.php?f=30&t=93818&p=1376773&hi ... e#p1376773

He states that you don't have to solder as the wires are already there. But I guess a small "how to connect and upload" tutorial will be helpful for most.

casainho   100 MW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by casainho » May 12 2018 7:14am

fantasy2 wrote:
May 12 2018 7:04am
Casainho already made a page for it: viewtopic.php?f=30&t=93818&p=1376773&hi ... e#p1376773

He states that you don't have to solder as the wires are already there. But I guess a small "how to connect and upload" tutorial will be helpful for most.
I didn't wrote yet as firmware is not yet on a working state. But I just reused the information from KT motor controllers as it is essential the same way and I added the Specific to TSDZ2 motor controller here (please note that is not needed to cut the cable to get wire access, we can just connect on the cable connector with some pins):
https://opensourceebikefirmware.bitbuck ... tools.html
Developer of the Flexible OpenSource firmware for EBike motor controllers (TSDZ2 and KT) and LCDs (KT-LCD3 and Bafang 850C color LCD).

If you like my work, please consider making a donation. I am being using the donations to buy needed resources for my developments. My paypal: casainho AT gmail.com.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by pawepie » May 12 2018 12:52pm

So excited for this amazing new open source firmware! Wish I had the developing skills to help out, but I'm just trying to stay caught up and learning from the shared information.

While we wait for the release of the firmware that will make this redundant, I'm curious if anyone has been able to edit the original firmware via ST Visual Programmer through the Data Memory. I've been able to edit the maximum battery input voltage with the help of the circulating PDF, but was wondering if anyone has figured out what number corresponds to the AMPS (I want to set mine to peak 18A...or see the behaviour with higher amps and temperature sensing).

Also, a way to remove the maximum speed via firmware programming (away from 45km) would be fantastic, as the workaround (magnet number = 2_ makes the speedometer inaccurate (though proportionally so).

for voltages, I found it correct that the relationship was linear (desired volts x2.5 = DEC value, then we convert the number to HEX)

I know eyebyesickle has the bins for configurations he likes, and just flashes them, but I was wondering if anyone has deciphered the specific areas for current and max speed limit (if that even exists on the stock firmware)

casainho   100 MW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by casainho » May 12 2018 1:08pm

I hope you guys never get on the LCD the "error 3: controller failure":

Image

because I get it and the controller is not working anymore -- seems the mosfets driver IC is cooked as it get's very hot to touch...
That IC, FAN7888, costs 7€ on Ebay. Don't know if I will try to replace or just use a new controller and use this one for repair parts.
Developer of the Flexible OpenSource firmware for EBike motor controllers (TSDZ2 and KT) and LCDs (KT-LCD3 and Bafang 850C color LCD).

If you like my work, please consider making a donation. I am being using the donations to buy needed resources for my developments. My paypal: casainho AT gmail.com.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by m3lonbr3ad » May 12 2018 1:53pm

Reached about 100 mi of road-only commuting and seemed to have developed some crank slop which I think is making an intermittent noise. Grabbing the crank arm ends and moving them toward and away from the frame show movement. Crank arm bolts were all properly torqued. Motor housing is solidly mounted to bicycle frame, too. So the movement is something within the motor housing. Not sure what to do yet; have not disassembled anything yet.

casainho   100 MW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by casainho » May 12 2018 1:57pm

m3lonbr3ad wrote:
May 12 2018 1:53pm
Reached about 100 mi of road-only commuting and seemed to have developed some crank slop which I think is making an intermittent noise. Grabbing the crank arm ends and moving them toward and away from the frame show movement. Crank arm bolts were all properly torqued. Motor housing is solidly mounted to bicycle frame, too. So the movement is something within the motor housing. Not sure what to do yet; have not disassembled anything yet.
Nylon blue gear started to fail??
Developer of the Flexible OpenSource firmware for EBike motor controllers (TSDZ2 and KT) and LCDs (KT-LCD3 and Bafang 850C color LCD).

If you like my work, please consider making a donation. I am being using the donations to buy needed resources for my developments. My paypal: casainho AT gmail.com.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by hobbyvac » May 12 2018 2:35pm

m3lonbr3ad wrote:
May 12 2018 1:53pm
Reached about 100 mi of road-only commuting and seemed to have developed some crank slop which I think is making an intermittent noise. Grabbing the crank arm ends and moving them toward and away from the frame show movement. Crank arm bolts were all properly torqued. Motor housing is solidly mounted to bicycle frame, too. So the movement is something within the motor housing. Not sure what to do yet; have not disassembled anything yet.
Mine also has a loose crank and always has. It doesn't seem to get worse and it operates fine but I still need to fix it. I have a hard time believing any bearing can have that much slop so it must be an undersized shaft?? I just don't have the time to tear it down but when I do I will make a list of all bearing sizes used. I would like to have spares for everything.

casainho   100 MW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by casainho » May 12 2018 4:15pm

The mosfets on the motor controller are:

K80E08K3 Toshiba Mosfets
• mosfet N
• Max drain−source voltage: 75V
• RDS (ON) = 7.5 mΩ
Developer of the Flexible OpenSource firmware for EBike motor controllers (TSDZ2 and KT) and LCDs (KT-LCD3 and Bafang 850C color LCD).

If you like my work, please consider making a donation. I am being using the donations to buy needed resources for my developments. My paypal: casainho AT gmail.com.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by jur » May 12 2018 5:02pm

hobbyvac wrote:
May 12 2018 2:35pm
m3lonbr3ad wrote:
May 12 2018 1:53pm
Reached about 100 mi of road-only commuting and seemed to have developed some crank slop which I think is making an intermittent noise. Grabbing the crank arm ends and moving them toward and away from the frame show movement. Crank arm bolts were all properly torqued. Motor housing is solidly mounted to bicycle frame, too. So the movement is something within the motor housing. Not sure what to do yet; have not disassembled anything yet.
Mine also has a loose crank and always has. It doesn't seem to get worse and it operates fine but I still need to fix it. I have a hard time believing any bearing can have that much slop so it must be an undersized shaft?? I just don't have the time to tear it down but when I do I will make a list of all bearing sizes used. I would like to have spares for everything.
I also found rather large slop in the crank arms perpendicular to pedal direction. Yesterday I was servicing the chain and noticed a similar but unconnected slop in the chainring bearing. I think either the bearings are poor quality or the mounting arrangement is non-optimal. I think there was talk about this way earlier in this monster thread.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Farther » May 12 2018 5:27pm

I ran into a problem installing my motor. There is a mounting flange on the motor that restricts the amount of space between the motor and the bottom bracket. Unfortuniatly, a have botha derailleur cable and a hydraulic brake hose that comes out from the down tube and passes under the bottom bracket and there is not enough room for the motor to slide past these.

The flange is actually on the cover of the motor, not the motor itself so I thought I could simply remove the cover, slide the motor into position and then replace the cover, however it appears there is also not enough clearance even for that.

Any ideas? I'm bummed about know.
cables.jpg
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cover.jpg
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motor.jpg
motor.jpg (242.93 KiB) Viewed 782 times

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Marin   1 kW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Marin » May 12 2018 5:53pm

Looks like your routing those cables a different way
Marin ex-rental hybrid with 48v bionx...sold
Specialized hardrock with magic pie 4-5
Lunacycle with l/r mid drive coming soon
Kona Caldera with QS 30H (maybe), and phase runner
Giant Yukon bbs02
Kona Abra Cadabra bbshd
Wildfire fat bike bbshd

casainho   100 MW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by casainho » May 12 2018 6:14pm

We already found that there was an ADC signal to measure battery current (that we will use to control the desired motor torque).

Today I also found that there is a digital signal that goes to the microcontroller and signals when the battery current of about 22 amps (I will call this: battery_over_current and will help us to fast reduce the current in a way to protect the mosfets).

Also the shunt on the board that measures battery current, should be of about 0.023 ohms resistance.

And a developer were able to measure the motors resistance and inductance:
48V motor:
• L = 0.000135H
• R = 0.125ohm

36V motor:
• L = 0.000076H
• R = 0.094ohm

Also, the microcontroller can disable the 5V voltage of the circuit and this way turn it of, including itself. Maybe that is why some users say that system will turn off automatically after some time and would prefer to increase that delay time of the original firmware.
Developer of the Flexible OpenSource firmware for EBike motor controllers (TSDZ2 and KT) and LCDs (KT-LCD3 and Bafang 850C color LCD).

If you like my work, please consider making a donation. I am being using the donations to buy needed resources for my developments. My paypal: casainho AT gmail.com.

Farther   1 mW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Farther » May 12 2018 8:42pm

Marin wrote:
May 12 2018 5:53pm
Looks like your routing those cables a different way
I got it to just squeeeeeze on!
installed.jpg
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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Farther » May 12 2018 8:49pm

Now to machine a custom anchor bracket to go under the kickstand and attach to the motor.

bracket.jpg
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AWD   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by AWD » May 12 2018 9:50pm

If your motor is hitting the dt then you have no need for the rear bracket as the motor can't torque in the direction it wants to anymore. These little units don't put out enough torque to make a dent in a bicycle frame I feel. There are some instances though that warrant the rear bracket however if you don't want the motor to be angled. Problem with angling the TS is that you can lose ground clearance actually due to the rectangular housing. Round housings aren't prone to this.

Best advice is to really torque down the silver lock ring, making sure the two tab bolts and spacers are the right length or even a little less, I don't put them on til after I torque the lock ring. By torquing it down I mean holding the silver wrench well and whacking it prudently with a hammer tight. A little blue loctite doesn't hurt either.

The stock cranks will take several rides to seat on the spindle, check with an 8mm hex often until they settle in.

Have fun with the build.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Drum » May 12 2018 11:11pm

"Reached about 100 mi of road-only commuting and seemed to have developed some crank slop which I think is making an intermittent noise. Grabbing the crank arm ends and moving them toward and away from the frame show movement. Crank arm bolts were all properly torqued. Motor housing is solidly mounted to bicycle frame, too. So the movement is something within the motor housing. Not sure what to do yet; have not disassembled anything yet."

I have just stripped one of these units and replaced a broken torque sensor. (I plan to post some learnings from this exercise soon).
I can confirm that the shaft on both torque sensors (the broken one and the replacement one) were a slip fit in the inner race of the bearing(s) on the lefthand end of the shaft, so could slide sideways quite easily. The slop was controlled by shim washers between the outer face of the bearing and a circlip on the shaft.
The two shim washers I removed totaled 0.85mm thick, and if I had more I guess I would have added about the same again when I had installed the new sensor.
However, a small amount of sideways play doesn't seem to be a big issue, although if it was over 1mm I would add shims. You would need long, straight circlip pliers with fairly small tips for the external circlip on the lefhand end of the pedal shaft, inside the oilseal, and a selection of 15mm ID shim washers no more than say 22mm OD.

There is also a shim washer between the rotating coil of the torque sensor and the inside of the big gear on the righthand side, however the big gear is effectively carried on the torque sensor, and the chainring is bolted to that gear, so sideways play in the chainring may simply be sideways play in the torque sensor assembly.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by emr » May 13 2018 1:37am

Farther wrote:
May 12 2018 8:42pm

I got it to just squeeeeeze on!
Well done, just something to consider...

I originally also managed to just squeeze the rear brake hydraulic line and rear gear change cable between the motor and the BB shell, in their original location. In this instance it was a very tight fit, and after considering potential damage to the cable and brake line due to friction wear, and from heat from the motor when under heavy load on a hot day, I decided to route the rear gear cable and hydraulic line above the BB shell. I was particularly concerned about discovering I had no rear brake one day, just when I needed it.

In the end, the 'above the bottom bracket shell' routing option worked out ok, and has not resulted in any significant sharp bends in the cabling. Cable replacement will also be easier when that is required...
Image

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Waynemarlow » May 13 2018 4:32am

Farther wrote:
May 12 2018 5:27pm
I ran into a problem installing my motor. There is a mounting flange on the motor that restricts the amount of space between the motor and the bottom bracket. Unfortuniatly, a have botha derailleur cable and a hydraulic brake hose that comes out from the down tube and passes under the bottom bracket and there is not enough room for the motor to slide past these.

The flange is actually on the cover of the motor, not the motor itself so I thought I could simply remove the cover, slide the motor into position and then replace the cover, however it appears there is also not enough clearance even for that.

Any ideas? I'm bummed about know.

cables.jpg
cover.jpg
motor.jpg
Most new frames route the cables over the top of the crank by bringing the cables out of the bottom tube just above and before the crank. I just redrilled my cable exits and rerouted the cables over the crank. If you look at any of the latest Whyte bikes you can see exactly how its done and if you really want to be cute, buy the little rubber grommets from Whyte ( they are only a few £ ) and you can fully seal the cable.

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John and Cecil   1 kW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by John and Cecil » May 13 2018 9:33am

Farther wrote:
May 12 2018 8:49pm
Now to machine a custom anchor bracket to go under the kickstand and attach to the motor.
It sounds nice but it might be unnecessary. We have a full suspension bike so there is no possible way to use the rear bracket. I just tightened it on fairly well and wrapped a large heavy duty cable tie in an x pattern around the top of the motor and the bb and it hasn't budged in over 300 miles. You want the cable tie to not only help hold the motor in place but also to go between the front of the motor and the frame to keep the motor from hitting the frame.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by John and Cecil » May 13 2018 9:42am

pawepie wrote:
May 12 2018 12:52pm
I've been able to edit the maximum battery input voltage with the help of the circulating PDF,
I am interested in editing the max voltage of my motor (currently it shuts down above 55.8 and I would prefer 58.4). I would also like to adjust the lower cutoff down to about 36 as well (for when I would like to use 44v travel friendly batteries). My 52v battery pack has it's own low voltage cutoff (42v) so I don't think the very low cutoff will hurt it. Did you find any references that shows how to do this, perhaps a document showing where to connect the port and what port to connect and what software to use and what you must do in the software.

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