New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Discussions related to motors other than hub motors.
This includes R/C motors, botttom bracket, roller and geared drives.
AWD   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by AWD » May 13 2018 9:51am

The overall issue is that fitting a kit MD motor to a bike can be problematic as the frame wasn't designed for it as the manufactured bikes are. You lose the "stealth" factor that seems to be a benchmark via exposed wiring, lower ground clearance (generally) and non integrated battery. However clean builds like EMR's can be achieved and have the benefit of easier maintenance and are future proof as technology moves forward you can upgrade components easily.

Q factor and chainline can be adjusted using straight arm cranks, the Bafang ones worked great on my TS build, and offset chainrings. However limited to 42t on the TS. It is a little extra work to get it all to your satisfaction but along the way you learn how it all ties together and maintenance is easier without having to take the bike to a shop each time it has issues.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by AWD » May 13 2018 10:03pm

After only using CA3's the stock display doesn't do me much good other than turning the bike on I have found. I have the wheel size pretty well dialed so that the speed/distance reads correctly but the bar gauge is worthless, perhaps due to the 52v controller, but I have always found voltage gauges not to be as accurate as tracking the ah's/wh's used.
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Easy to plumb in using some Anderson connectors, you have to thin the wires on the unit some to get them to fit is all. I don't really care to see the info I need for range assessment in real time so I just mounted it with a zip tie to the bottom of the seat tube. It is easily readable while stopped, which I do often enough even with e assist. Not because I am tired but to take in the scenery mainly.

Did a poke around town trip with my son and his girlfriend today that was 18 miles and used 1.7ah's. My son has an EU spec 36v BB01 powering an 8spd IGH that was built by Davinci Mobility. His chair has motor assist wheels also but they need to be turned off because they cut out at 10mph and created drag, he can get 15mph out of it though. I think he is ready for the 48v conversion and hope to do that soon.
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casainho   100 MW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by casainho » May 14 2018 9:49am

Got my metal gear and now my TSDZ2 motor is running again -- happy happy :-) :-)

This time I also installed the brakes as others told me, maybe the reason for nylon gear broke in the first 20kms was because I brake with motor pushing.

My kit was the most cheap and didn't came with brakes. Anyway, I had in stock the "hidden wire brakes" and connected to the LCD. Works perfectly. I also had in stock the connectors JST XH 2.5mm that are very easy to buy online and they fit perfectly on the LCD:

"hidden wire brakes":
Image

Connectors JST XH 2.5mm and the wire connections:
Image
Developer of the Flexible OpenSource firmware for EBike motor controllers (TSDZ2 and KT) and LCDs (KT-LCD3 and Bafang 850C color LCD).

If you like my work, please consider making a donation. I am being using the donations to buy needed resources for my developments. My paypal: casainho AT gmail.com.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by wpenner » May 14 2018 5:48pm

Looking at PWSPower Website. Do all these motors come with the same wire inputs?

I'm looking for one that will work with hydraulic brake sensors, but don't need the cruddy switch ones. Has anyone set one of these up with hydraulic brake sensors? Do i need to order it with brakes and splice in a hydraulic brake sensor?

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by sysrq » May 14 2018 5:57pm

m3lonbr3ad wrote:
May 12 2018 1:53pm
Reached about 100 mi of road-only commuting and seemed to have developed some crank slop which I think is making an intermittent noise. Grabbing the crank arm ends and moving them toward and away from the frame show movement. Crank arm bolts were all properly torqued. Motor housing is solidly mounted to bicycle frame, too. So the movement is something within the motor housing. Not sure what to do yet; have not disassembled anything yet.
Apart from bottom bracket play and periodic clunking sound when turning cranks by hand everything seems alright.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by casainho » May 14 2018 11:54pm

wpenner wrote:
May 14 2018 5:48pm
Looking at PWSPower Website. Do all these motors come with the same wire inputs?

I'm looking for one that will work with hydraulic brake sensors, but don't need the cruddy switch ones. Has anyone set one of these up with hydraulic brake sensors? Do i need to order it with brakes and splice in a hydraulic brake sensor?
For what I know, inputs f9r brakes are digital inpit pins only. How do that signal for hydraulic brakes works??
Developer of the Flexible OpenSource firmware for EBike motor controllers (TSDZ2 and KT) and LCDs (KT-LCD3 and Bafang 850C color LCD).

If you like my work, please consider making a donation. I am being using the donations to buy needed resources for my developments. My paypal: casainho AT gmail.com.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by crazyebot » May 15 2018 1:25am

I've done about 2000 km and so far, no issues. No problems with the nylon gear; no play in the crank arms; no funny noises or loss of power. Drive details: 350w/48v model with the small LCD + throttle. Mostly keep the power at level 2 (Touring), but I push to level 4 a couple of times each trip to quickly get up a hill. Cruising speed is about 40km p/hr.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by sysrq » May 15 2018 5:43am

crazyebot wrote:
May 15 2018 1:25am
I've done about 2000 km and so far, no issues. No problems with the nylon gear; no play in the crank arms; no funny noises or loss of power. Drive details: 350w/48v model with the small LCD + throttle. Mostly keep the power at level 2 (Touring), but I push to level 4 a couple of times each trip to quickly get up a hill. Cruising speed is about 40km p/hr.
Probably just a bad sample in my case. A bit too much hassle sending it back. Will see how it works when mounted.

casainho   100 MW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by casainho » May 15 2018 5:54am

I think TSDZ2 motor controller sends information about the motor current to LCD... simple the LCD don't implement that functionality.
I will then implement LCD3 firmware to show TSDZ2 motor real time wattage - I want to know real time wattage and amps hour!!

Here some tests I did recording the data that flows to LCD.
Motor stopped and wheel stopped:
43 17 00 58 58 00 07 07
43 17 00 58 5c 00 07 07
43 17 00 58 59 00 07 07

Motor stopped but wheel running:
43 17 00 58 58 00 82 00
43 17 00 58 58 00 82 00
43 17 00 58 58 00 85 00
--- as we can see, comparing to the first case, only last 2 bytes really change when the only change was the wheel being running.

Motor startup with big current and wheel stopped:
43 17 00 59 73 00 07 07
43 17 00 59 70 00 07 07
43 17 00 59 6d 00 07 07
43 17 00 59 6a 00 07 07
--- as we can see, now, only the 5 and 6 bytes really change when the only change was motor current.
I think that 2 bytes are a 16 bits value. Zero current = 0x5858 and the ~16 amps at startup about 0x5973. That's a difference of 283 decimal, about 283/16, each 1 amp will be about 16 units.
(I omitted the last byte that is the checksum)
Developer of the Flexible OpenSource firmware for EBike motor controllers (TSDZ2 and KT) and LCDs (KT-LCD3 and Bafang 850C color LCD).

If you like my work, please consider making a donation. I am being using the donations to buy needed resources for my developments. My paypal: casainho AT gmail.com.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Speady » May 15 2018 6:05am

wpenner wrote:
May 14 2018 5:48pm
I'm looking for one that will work with hydraulic brake sensors, but don't need the cruddy switch ones. Has anyone set one of these up with hydraulic brake sensors?
Sure you can wire in hydraulic brake sensors. Use 2-pin sensors like these:
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/2018-El ... 47774.html
I tried the 3-pin sensors once but it didn't pan out. All I got was an error code on the display. Guess because a Reed switch (2p) and not a Hall sensor (3p) is needed.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by wpenner » May 15 2018 9:29am

One more annoying question.

What is the difference between 750w and 500w version. pswpower sells both for the same price. I thought amps were set in the lcd settings

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by casainho » May 15 2018 9:30am

wpenner wrote:
May 15 2018 9:29am
One more annoying question.

What is the difference between 750w and 500w version. pswpower sells both for the same price. I thought amps were set in the lcd settings
Amps are set in factory, is a configuration of the firmware. LCD can't change amps.
Developer of the Flexible OpenSource firmware for EBike motor controllers (TSDZ2 and KT) and LCDs (KT-LCD3 and Bafang 850C color LCD).

If you like my work, please consider making a donation. I am being using the donations to buy needed resources for my developments. My paypal: casainho AT gmail.com.

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John and Cecil   1 kW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by John and Cecil » May 15 2018 10:01am

The LCD allows the motor amps to be changed in the settings however it does not function :)

Our 34 tooth sprocket arrived yesterday. I took a quick test ride, 1st gear now maxes out at 8mph instead of 10mph. Instead of climbing steep hills at 7.5mph (75% of max speed in gear) we can now run them at 6mph. This should allow us to climb steeper hills with less effort. Chainline has gotten a little worse but appears to be ok. With the stock 42T offset chainring our chainline lined up around 5th gear, with the non-offset 34t chainring we are now lining up around 6th gear. If we need more hill climbing ability I will upgrade the 11-34 rear to 11-40 and keep the 34t front, but if we don't need any more climbing power I will probably upgrade the rear to 11-40 and get a longer chain and switch back to the 42t front.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by wpenner » May 15 2018 10:11am

casainho wrote:
May 15 2018 9:30am
wpenner wrote:
May 15 2018 9:29am
One more annoying question.

What is the difference between 750w and 500w version. pswpower sells both for the same price. I thought amps were set in the lcd settings
Amps are set in factory, is a configuration of the firmware. LCD can't change amps.
Thanks, i'm thinking the 500w is a better choice to start with, as i don't want to cook the tiny motor, and strip the gears. I'm guessing the 500watt is set at 10amps and the 750 at 15amps.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by John and Cecil » May 15 2018 10:30am

wpenner wrote:
May 15 2018 10:11am

Thanks, i'm thinking the 500w is a better choice to start with, as i don't want to cook the tiny motor, and strip the gears. I'm guessing the 500watt is set at 10amps and the 750 at 15amps.
I think the nylon gear is fine for 750w if you stay in the upper 25% or so of the motor's RPM range. What I do is ride full throttle in 1st gear and record my top speed. With the 42t stock chainring my top speed in 1st gear is 10mph. That is when the motor is winding out without a large load on it. Now I know that when I climb hills I need to make sure I never drop my speed down below 7.5mph. I think if you do this you won't cook the motor or strip the gear. If you cannot maintain 75% of max rpm speed then shut it off or reduce power to eco and climb the hill manually. Also make sure you shift correctly, don't let a tall gear pull you up from a slow speed. You should probably be shifting in the upper 50-75% of rpm range, and the higher the gear the higher the rpm shift speed. And if going from a stop make sure you are in your lowest gear, especially when in turbo or throttle. This probably puts a lot of stress on the gears.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by m3lonbr3ad » May 15 2018 10:50am

John and Cecil wrote:
May 15 2018 10:30am
wpenner wrote:
May 15 2018 10:11am

Thanks, i'm thinking the 500w is a better choice to start with, as i don't want to cook the tiny motor, and strip the gears. I'm guessing the 500watt is set at 10amps and the 750 at 15amps.
I think the nylon gear is fine for 750w if you stay in the upper 25% or so of the motor's RPM range. What I do is ride full throttle in 1st gear and record my top speed. With the 42t stock chainring my top speed in 1st gear is 10mph. That is when the motor is winding out without a large load on it. Now I know that when I climb hills I need to make sure I never drop my speed down below 7.5mph. I think if you do this you won't cook the motor or strip the gear. If you cannot maintain 75% of max rpm speed then shut it off or reduce power to eco and climb the hill manually. Also make sure you shift correctly, don't let a tall gear pull you up from a slow speed. You should probably be shifting in the upper 50-75% of rpm range, and the higher the gear the higher the rpm shift speed. And if going from a stop make sure you are in your lowest gear, especially when in turbo or throttle. This probably puts a lot of stress on the gears.
I think you are correct. I feel the one condition that is most hard to control for would be from a stop. Regardless of the gear you are in, if you are not moving and you put enough pedal force down to trigger the motor to output maximally, things get risky. I think with the 350w version, this still is not a problem for the nylon gear. I have a feeling the original system was designed around the force constraints for the 350w. Since these are now being pushed outside of those constraints with the ~500w-750w, the brass replacement might be a good idea. Someone mentioned earlier that the nylon gear may be acting as a shear pin though, which I think is also a possibility. When you harden the one point of failure for these scenarios, you end up moving the failure point to somewhere else that is probably less affordable. I think the best solution is to probably just not apply significant force when beginning movement from a stop, but instead gradually ramp force up.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by qwerkus » May 15 2018 10:52am

Finally managed to make a Video of my awful tsdz2 noise: https://youtu.be/vdEDqYoKqYs

The camera is laying on the ground just beneath the motor.

You can hear 3 differents sounds:
- the wet drag in the brackground = wheel slipping on wet ground to simulate load
- high pitch sound = normal electric motor sound
- low pitch shattering sound = anormal gearing sound.

I think it's pretty clear something is wrong with that motor. Still waiting for lithium grease before opening up.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by John and Cecil » May 15 2018 11:00am

m3lonbr3ad wrote:
May 15 2018 10:50am

I think you are correct. I feel the one condition that is most hard to control for would be from a stop. Regardless of the gear you are in, if you are not moving and you put enough pedal force down to trigger the motor to output maximally, things get risky. I think with the 350w version, this still is not a problem for the nylon gear. I have a feeling the original system was designed around the force constraints for the 350w. Since these are now being pushed outside of those constraints with the ~500w-750w, the brass replacement might be a good idea. Someone mentioned earlier that the nylon gear may be acting as a shear pin though, which I think is also a possibility. When you harden the one point of failure for these scenarios, you end up moving the failure point to somewhere else that is probably less affordable. I think the best solution is to probably just not apply significant force when beginning movement from a stop, but instead gradually ramp force up.
I agree and the blue gear is also good for keeping wear to a minimum on the other components too, plus it is quieter than a metal gear.

Maybe Casainho will come with a way to ramp up power, or to disable power at under a certain cadence. The motor can be calibrated to not apply power at slower cadence by pedaling it slowly when turning it on. If you pedal at say 20rpm while turning it on I don't think it will do anything at under 20rpms. It is a pita to do this every time you initialize the motor though. I will try it again later today and see if it applies power with full force at low rpms if initialized at 30rpms.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by fantasy2 » May 15 2018 1:17pm

m3lonbr3ad wrote:
May 15 2018 10:50am
I think you are correct. I feel the one condition that is most hard to control for would be from a stop. Regardless of the gear you are in, if you are not moving and you put enough pedal force down to trigger the motor to output maximally, things get risky. I think with the 350w version, this still is not a problem for the nylon gear. I have a feeling the original system was designed around the force constraints for the 350w. Since these are now being pushed outside of those constraints with the ~500w-750w, the brass replacement might be a good idea. Someone mentioned earlier that the nylon gear may be acting as a shear pin though, which I think is also a possibility. When you harden the one point of failure for these scenarios, you end up moving the failure point to somewhere else that is probably less affordable. I think the best solution is to probably just not apply significant force when beginning movement from a stop, but instead gradually ramp force up.
This sounds like a perfect item for the open source firmware. Ramp profiles to keep torque low enough not to break anything.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by John and Cecil » May 15 2018 1:47pm

Well we rode around with the 34t front sprocket today. It is much better for climbing hills and we can either ride up them now using less power or we can climb steeper hills with less effort. I don't like the closer ratio of the gearing now though, and when in 8th gear the chain is rubbing on the chainring guard - I guess it needs some washers installed to be used as spacers. We are going to use it for the meantime but I think the 42t chainring matched with an 11-40 (or larger) wide ratio rear would probably make for a much better ride with more efficient shifting and similar hill climbing abilities. We will need a new chain though, those 6 extra teeth are not going to work with the stock chain.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by wheelyphased » May 15 2018 8:31pm

Speady wrote:
May 15 2018 6:05am
wpenner wrote:
May 14 2018 5:48pm
I'm looking for one that will work with hydraulic brake sensors, but don't need the cruddy switch ones. Has anyone set one of these up with hydraulic brake sensors?
Sure you can wire in hydraulic brake sensors. Use 2-pin sensors like these:
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/2018-El ... 47774.html
I tried the 3-pin sensors once but it didn't pan out. All I got was an error code on the display. Guess because a Reed switch (2p) and not a Hall sensor (3p) is needed.
I don't understand how these work with straight hydraulic brakes. The linked example appears to be the common cable-movement type. There are many solutions involving cable or lever movement but almost none for hydraulic brakes especially 'road' style bikes. I'm looking for a solution using drop-bar brake/shifters e.g. Ultegra. It appears the only off-the-shelf approach is a hydraulic pressure switch or the tripwire thing, which looks very fragile.
http://www.ebikes.ca/product-info/tripwire.html#models
Are the standard TSDZ2 brake switches normally-closed or normally-open?

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by casainho » May 15 2018 8:47pm

wheelyphased wrote:
May 15 2018 8:31pm
Are the standard TSDZ2 brake switches normally-closed or normally-open?
Each connector on the LCD has 3 pins: VCC 5V, GND and brake signal.
Brake signal is by default at 5V and you need to connect it to GND to activate brake signal. So, it can be a mechanical switch connected between GND and brake signal, that when closed will put the brake signal equal to GND and then activate the signal.
Developer of the Flexible OpenSource firmware for EBike motor controllers (TSDZ2 and KT) and LCDs (KT-LCD3 and Bafang 850C color LCD).

If you like my work, please consider making a donation. I am being using the donations to buy needed resources for my developments. My paypal: casainho AT gmail.com.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by leelorr » May 15 2018 9:06pm

FYI,

I have used the Ebrake switch kit that EM3EV sells for both of my Ebikes, one of which used hydraulic brakes, and one which had BB7 mechanical disk brakes. I used "JB weld" to attach the small magnet to the bottom of the brake lever right next to the lever mount, and the same "JB Weld" to attach the sensor switch to the bottom of the brake lever mount. They can not be seen except for the wire that is attached to the sensor, which I use black electrical tape to attach to the normal front brake cable. On my second bike, I only installed a sensor on the rear brake lever because I always brake with it first, so I didn't see a reason to put one on the front brake lever. I wouldn't ride without them unless maybe my bike had ONLY a torque sensor (no PAS sensor).
You can see the item on the Luna Cycle web site at:
https://lunacycle.com/bafang-hydraulic- ... rake-pair/

Good luck,
Lorrin

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by sysrq » May 16 2018 10:46am

Turns out XH18 doesn't fit on 23.8 mm handlebars.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by casainho » May 16 2018 10:49am

My ebike, with "hidden brakes" installed. The battery bottle is a bit loose and later I will put some black and strong tape. Later I will also install my usual saddlebags.

Without this natural environment, this ebike would have much less value to me :-)

Image

And I got the control of each segment of the LCD3. Next I will start structure the firmware so it is easy to print numbers and strings to the LCD odometer field. Then I want to ride my ebike and show on LCD3 the TSDZ2 real time motor current, battery voltage and motor wattage:

Developer of the Flexible OpenSource firmware for EBike motor controllers (TSDZ2 and KT) and LCDs (KT-LCD3 and Bafang 850C color LCD).

If you like my work, please consider making a donation. I am being using the donations to buy needed resources for my developments. My paypal: casainho AT gmail.com.

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