New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Discussions related to motors other than hub motors.
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larsottar   1 mW

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Re: New "SDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by larsottar » May 30 2016 4:57am

Hi,

Yes, got a bit curious back there. I attempted to open the end shields of the motor istelf, but the screws where really tight and I basically destroyed the first one I tried, so left it at that.

Interesting yours does not have the same noise without assist PhaenTa. I was suspicious my noise might be due to a worn chain, but simply turning the crank without chain attached produces considerable noise I think;


PhaenTa, or anybody else with a TSDZ2; could you make a recording and post? If it sounds very different it just might be I have received a bad sample.

Would be very interesting to see a current draw measurment indeed. I don't think the wires are that small, 2.5 mm^2 ? I guess it's important that the battery can deliver enough amps given the A setting is doing anything in the first place. The battery I tested with is said to deliver max 15 A, and is quite a cheap one. Don't know if it will deliver more on intermittent duty.

Cheers
Lars

PhaenTa   10 mW

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Re: New "SDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by PhaenTa » May 31 2016 4:43am

I just made a quick recording for you first without and then with assist on.

To me it sounds quieter, but it could simply be caused by different mikes (I used my phone).


Dr.Electric   1 mW

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Re: New "SDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Dr.Electric » May 31 2016 4:23pm

I did a test ride going uphill with a freshly charged samsung 35 E pack 5p10S.
620 watt in max output from the battery. Just about 15-16 Amp.
Going uphill for 5 minutes the motor and battery maintain this load without problems.
But it sound a bit laboured. The motor noice is much nicer under less load.

I also dont have any noise from the drive when i bike without assist. I think the motor in the video sound a bit sick.

mscoot   1 W

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Re: New "SDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by mscoot » Jun 01 2016 8:17am

Dr.Electric wrote:So i finally had some time to test it some more.

Se added picture for clearance. I had to cut away almost all of the motor mount on the right side.
But the motor fits snugly.

With a freshly charged 10 s 5p Samsung 35e pack I have 550-620 watt under load.
The motor delivers this continually going uphill. Used 2Ah on 10 minutes and the motor was probably about 35 Celsius after this workout.
It has a quite nice engine sound. Almost like a little motor cycle engine.
Works fine with the alfine 8.
I changed some settings in the controller. Now is powers the bike until 35 km/h. But the power change setting didn't change the motor wattage.

The bad stuff:
I can feel a little wobble in the main bearing from the crank.
This is a little surprising!
I hope that the main bearing will last!
Looks good! How come you didn't mount the last ring there? To me it looks like it could fit..

Could you explain in more details what parts you had to cut away with this picture?Image

PhaenTa   10 mW

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Re: New "SDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by PhaenTa » Jun 03 2016 1:33pm

Well.. definitely did not expect this :shock:



I haven't even used it for more than 10km. The last 2km were rolling back after a
failed trip. Seems like a gear is stripped since the motor still engages but provides
no momentum. So this one is going back to seller and I'll give 8Fang a go instead.

Really disappointed as I did like this motor while it worked + now all the hastle
getting this sorted out.

So beware.. the quality is questionable.

nbdriver   10 mW

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Re: New "SDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by nbdriver » Jun 06 2016 7:06am

That's not a nice sound. Did you opened it to see what happend inside with the gears ? Maybe just a screw to tighten, or something easy to fix ? It doesn't seems to complicated inside.
I just received mine last week and made the first ride with it, 28Km with some hills, and so far it is behaving really good.
I ordered the 350W version from elifebike, shipping was very fast (3 days to europe).
You can really feel the difference between the four assist modes, and it is very quiet, nowhere close to the sound of the motor of larsottar (it must have a problem).
I have already used a bosch performance line MTB and the sound is almost the same.

I really hope i will not face a problem like yours. Where did you buy it from ?
If it is the blue plastic gear you can buy a new one at pswpower.com for 30$

PhaenTa   10 mW

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Re: New "SDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by PhaenTa » Jun 06 2016 7:23am

@nbdriver:

Glad that yours is working fine so far and thanks for the tip regarding the plastic gear.
I suspect that it may indeed be the cause but I haven't opened the casing to keep the
warranty even though I could most likely fix it my self. I am still awaiting a reply
from the seller / factory to see what they offer.

I feel that the motor failed way too soon and even if I replace the damaged part
it's obviously a weak link.. There were no warning signs or heat build up. I was actually
going mostly downhill and then took a 5 min break. When I got going again, it failed.

Weird.

nbdriver   10 mW

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Re: New "SDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by nbdriver » Jun 06 2016 9:14am

I've read some reviews from germany where this motor is named SFM 250, and some people had more than 1000km on it without any problems so maybe it is just bad luck.
I hope so, because now i'm affraid of the motor failing in the middle of a ride.
I've looked a lot at the bafang before ordering this one, but the torque sensor made a big difference for me.

Keep us informed about your communication with the factory/seller.

larsottar   1 mW

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Re: New "SDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by larsottar » Jun 06 2016 3:49pm

Ouch, sorry to hear that PhaenTa. Seems like a metal to metal noise that. If this motor is to deliver 50-60 Nm on the crank shaft and the radius of the main gear (the one on the crank shaft) is approximately 6 cm it means the tooths are transmitting around 1000 N (~ 100 kg). Sounds like a lot, but I don't know much about gears. Again, the situation is much the same in the Bafang which claims 80 Nm torque on crank shaft.

I bet they will ask you to open the motor and check yourself. PSWpower asked me to do that on mine, which of course I had already done. Also happened with a battery i had bought from Elifebike a while ago. After I sent them pictures they refunded. If you payed by PayPal and open a dispute you should have a pretty good chance on getting either a new motor or money back.

I rode mine for a 20 km ride the other day and it really kicks ass, but the noise is still there. It seems the noise is most prominent with no assist and gradually goes away proportionately with the amount of assist.

Anyway I'm planning on trying to add a second chain ring to the 110 bcd motor spider. Thinking of just using the two highest steps of a three step front derailleur. I'll post what I find.

Cheers
Lars

aja   10 W

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Re: New "SDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by aja » Jun 06 2016 5:58pm

I originally posted on a related thread when I purchased this motor; I fitted it to my velomobile and have been using it to help me pull a trailer with up to 90 kg load (but mostly between 20 and 50kg). I'm using it with a single 56 tooth chainring up front with a 11/40 cassette, and I can get up all hills near me, some of which have quite steep gradients. I also have a 34t chainring installed but had to remove the FD as the FD pole wasn't setup correctly (there's no frame to clamp it onto so the pole is important); I've kept it on in case the motor fails and then I can manually move it. If I get around to adjusting the pole (not a simple affair but doable) then I would then be able to switch between the two rings if necessary.

Since quite early on after I had installed the unit, a high pitched noise has emanated from the system, so this week I finally had a chance to remove the motor and dismantle part of it; after adding grease and removing some grit on the axle, the noise has gone completely, but I have only done a short test ride. Will find out later this week when I'm using the trailer if I really solved the problem. Anyway, thankfully it was fairly simple to remove the casing, so know how to do that in case of any future issues.

My motor is quite quiet (nothing like the other contributor's motor), and I'm inside a fully faired vehicle; yes, it's quieter when switched off of course but it's not as noisy as I thought it'd be; it's only when I'm trying to pull heavy loads in turbo mode uphill that it gets a bit louder.

I've yet to try out the Bafang though, as I was drawn by the torque sensor of this system.

larsottar   1 mW

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Re: New "SDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by larsottar » Jun 08 2016 6:11am

Thanks for your post aja. (Tried reverting posts to that first thread, but didn't seem to work.) A couple of questions, did you remove the cover on the chainring side? Mine appeared to be glued in addition to the bolts, so didn't try to force it, but I would expect one will get good access to greasing the main shaft gear if that cover is removed. What is the front derailleur pole and how do you adjust it? (Is it with the high and low screws?)

So I sort of got my second chainring to work with two odd modifications. Firstly I had to mount it the wrong way in order for it to not be positioned too far out from the original chainring, which has a considerable offset inwards relative to the spider. I measured the chainline (distance from frame center to chainring) of the stock chainring and it is ~50.5 mm as specified in drawings. The shimano chainring I added has 50 teeth and the teeth are not symmetrical, so not sure how that will work out in the long run. Secondly I had to position the derailleur unusually high to get it to shift onto the bigger chainring. If installed in normal height the derailleur touches the 42 tooth chainring when shifted to highest gear.
DSC_0209.JPG
DSC_0210.JPG
The shifting works ok from the little testing I have done, but have yet to take it for a proper ride. I suppose a better option would be to get a derailleur made for two chainrings but not sure if any exists which would work with 50 mm ++ chainline.

Cheers
Lars

1boris   1 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by 1boris » Jun 10 2016 5:02pm

Hi
Can you use a 48 volt battery on this motor?

How is the torque vs the bafang bbs 250w?

JanAre   1 µW

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Re: New "SDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by JanAre » Jun 13 2016 2:40pm

larsottar wrote:
ecilopaveht wrote:Does anyone know if the controller is programmable like the BBSHD? Can you set any settings or are you stuck with what is pre-programmed.
I got hold of the "specification" for the display. The "A" setting seems to have to do with power somehow but haven't tried it yet.
The attachment VLCD-5大液晶说明书V1.1修改版.pdf is no longer available
-Lars
Hi!

I just built a bike with this Engine - could you elaborate a bit on the "A" setting and how to get to this menu? Do you have the specification for the display?

BTW, are you - by any chance - the Lars who attended the e-bike breakfast @ Digs in Trondheim?

BR/ Jan A
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nbdriver   10 mW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by nbdriver » Jun 15 2016 5:03am

Nice Build, it's a really nice mid drive. i have now 130Km on it, and the only problem i have is the left crank arm screw that keeps coming loose while riding, i am trying some blue loctite for the next ride.
For the A setting it seems that it is the Max amps that the controller can take (Default is 16, which is about 576W at 36V). During my first rides, it seems to be pretty spot on with the maximum power reading of my watt-meter.
I have not tried to bring this value higher.

To reach this menu you need to follow this procedure :
1. Turn on display
2. Hold the "i" and power button for 3 seconds and release (nothing happens on the screen but it is normal)
3. cycle trough the different functions with the "i" button and you will see that you have access to new menus.
4 reboot to save

It doesn't always work the first time, but i have successfully changed the speed limit this way.

For the first rides in eco mode my power consumption seems to be around 4,5Wh/Km on flat land with some stops 29Km/h average.
In Tour mode about 6Wh/Km in the same conditions.

So with my 5Ah Lipo i have about 30Km range in Eco, which is my daily commute distance. Nice and discrete set-up.

@PhaenTa
Some news of your broken motor ?

PhaenTa   10 mW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by PhaenTa » Jun 15 2016 5:39am

@nbdriver

Your battery is only 5A? Good to know. That excludes the possibility of my 8Ah being too small. I even
limited the A setting to 8A just to be on the safe side.

Well. I opened the thing up and everything inside the motor casing looked intact. I was expecting some
broken gears but found none. The motor shaft was moving freely but I could not verify if it was 100% OK
electrically.

There are obviously some gears in the bump behind the chainwheel so I tried to open that up but it wouldn't
disassemble. Looks like the ball bearings can be pressed on? If that is the location of that 30USD blue plastic
gear then it may very well be it. I must admit, I didn't have much time to fiddle with it.

Regardless, the motor is shipped back to seller for repair. The package has spent almost a week out of the
country and is still nearby + the factory estimates 15-20 days for the repair so it looks like I won't be riding
(with a motor) for a while..

Still, reading about the mileage you and other achieve with this motor, provides me with confidence in giving
this one more chance :wink:
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nbdriver   10 mW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by nbdriver » Jun 15 2016 8:48am

It seems to be fine inside, so maybe like you say, there are still some gears inside.

did you had to pay shipping costs yourself to send it back, where did you buy it ?

Yes my battery is only 5Ah Lipo, 2 Turnigy 20C packs in series, i'm also in RC planes so i had everything to charge them and the price is unbeatable.
If i want more range i will just buy 2 more and put them in my backpack and change when the first ones are empty. I like this solution because it is cheap, light, small, and i only carry with me the amount of batteries that i need for the ride.
The only downside is that the battery gauge on the screen is completely off with lipo's, it is always full and loses one bar of the 5 when the battery is almost empty at 37V (i never go deeper that 3,7V per cell).

I had read somewhere that a guy gave this motor 50V so i could use a 12S pack instead of 10S but i'm a little afraid of doing that, because i don't know how long the controller will last with that voltage.

I will test this motor for 6 month to see if nothing fails, and buy a second one for my wife, because it is really easy to use, like riding a normal bike, and gives great assist.


Does everyone else as the problem of the crank arm coming loose ?

thowaa   10 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by thowaa » Jul 17 2016 10:03am

I have got this motor branded Zito from a Norwegian dealer. Haven't tried it yet.

Is the speed sensor just a simple reed switch or is it a hall sensor?
I need to extend the cable and wonder if I need to connect all six wires? :)

thowaa   10 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by thowaa » Jul 22 2016 1:43am

Things seem to differ slightly from the user manual posted earlier in this thread.
These are the hidden functions I get. (Default values in parenthesis.)

dl = wheel diameter, 14-32 inch (26)
cc = number of wheel magnets used for speed sensor, 1-12 (1)
speed units, km/h or mile/h (km/h)
6 km/h function, on/off (off)
Sd = speed limit, 15-45 km/h (25)
A = Power adjustment, 0-32 A (16)
M = Mode, Japan or Europe (EUR)
25 km/h speed limit, on/off (on)

Would be nice to know more about what the power adjustment
and mode settings actually do.

keithmac   10 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by keithmac » Jul 22 2016 2:18am

Looks a nice unit, torque sensing would be ideal for me BUT the the noise it quite significant compared to the BBS units.

thowaa   10 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by thowaa » Jul 23 2016 2:27am

I have only had a test ride for about 20 km, and so far my motor doesn't sound anything like larsottar's and it is quiet without assist. With assist it is perhaps slightly more noisy than BBS 01, but I think the torque sensor certainly weights up for that. It gives a much more true bicycle feeling.

According to my Norwegian dealer these motors (and also Bafang) are made in different versions and price levels. Cheaper motor means cheaper parts used inside, i.e. bearings, etc. He says he ask for all the upgrades he can get. Sounds reasonable, but a bit hard to verify. Though, it might explain why some have problems and a lot of noise, while others don't.

ScooterMan101   1 MW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by ScooterMan101 » Jul 24 2016 12:23am

Looks like most of you that bought one live in Europe / Scandinavia,

Why did you buy from China ?
as there seems to be a version from Austria ?
http://www.elektrobikes.com/Bausatz

is the one from Schachner Elektrobikes also the same motor from China , with their name on the outside casing ?

Price difference ?

Anyone contact Schachner and know the details ?
Last edited by ScooterMan101 on Jul 24 2016 12:53am, edited 1 time in total.
My first conversion ...

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 1#p1077497

It's 2018 already, lets get some real , improved e-bike / e-velomobile / e-motorcycle designs .

ScooterMan101   1 MW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by ScooterMan101 » Jul 24 2016 12:50am

@ Larsottar,

When you installed the/ a stock 50 tooth bicycle chainring on backwards, you have now also changed the angle of the teeth,

Look at it , it now has the top / outer part of the teeth facing backwards instead of forwards,

I am guessing that is going to have negative results on your chain and chainring wear, meaning they will not last as long .

can you mount the spider backwards instead ?

If not then an alternative is to find a adaptor spider, one that bolts to 110 bcd , and accepts 130 bcd chainrings . ( many / but not all Road Chainrings are 130 bcd for the outer 2 chainrings. I do not know where to find such a 110 to 130 bcd adaptor spider since I have not yet had to do this myself.

Someone here could provide a link.
My first conversion ...

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 1#p1077497

It's 2018 already, lets get some real , improved e-bike / e-velomobile / e-motorcycle designs .

thowaa   10 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by thowaa » Jul 25 2016 11:43pm

ScooterMan101 wrote: is the one from Schachner Elektrobikes also the same motor from China , with their name on the outside casing ?
Yes, this is the TSDZ2 manufactured by Tongsheng in China.
Here are some brand names I have found on this motor:
SFM (Germay)
Schachner (Austria)
Future Bike (Italy)
Electrom (Slovenia)
IMPULS (Poland)
Zito (Norway)
X-MAX (China)
CNEBIKES (China)
EUNORAU (China)
+ several offering the motor unbranded or with the Tongsheng (TS) logo.

thowaa   10 W

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Re: New "SDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by thowaa » Jul 25 2016 11:46pm

larsottar wrote:..., did you remove the cover on the chainring side? Mine appeared to be glued in addition to the bolts, ...
Strange. My cover came off easily.
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keithmac   10 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by keithmac » Jul 26 2016 12:26pm

That looks a fairly hefty bearing in the middle!, even if it does go I'm sure an NSK, KOYO would supply an equivalent.

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