New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by pawepie » Jun 23 2018 1:02pm

I had this issue before with the VLCD: it would give readouts of 99km/h very quickly and stop the motor. Now when I line it up and change the distance, it cuts off the motor over 15km/h, torque or throttle. The speed readout seems to be accurate. I'll do some more distance fiddling. I do recall that closer and/or stronger magnet made the problem worse.

In good news, I added a small DC/DC boost converter to the light line so I can run 12v lights and horn with the TSDZ2 (image below). A few dollars off of ebay: I think it's an AMP limit (voltage adjustable with the tiny potentiometer). Heat shrink tubing, and it's good to go :)

Hmm...setting the speed limit to 5km or 10km an hour through the LCD3 doesn't seem to work...it still cuts out at 15 km/h max. I wonder if the controller is getting the message.

Also - is the open source TSDZ2 firmware good to go and compatible with the LCD3? I wonder if that could be a fix for this issue.
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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by casainho » Jun 23 2018 6:05pm

pawepie wrote:
Jun 23 2018 1:02pm
Hmm...setting the speed limit to 5km or 10km an hour through the LCD3 doesn't seem to work...it still cuts out at 15 km/h max. I wonder if the controller is getting the message.

Also - is the open source TSDZ2 firmware good to go and compatible with the LCD3? I wonder if that could be a fix for this issue.
If assist level is working, then it is receiving all.

No, the OpenSource firmware is still a bit far from a working version.
It can run the motor, controlled from torque sensor or throttle but needs big testing and improvements, validation.
Developer of the Flexible OpenSource firmware for EBike motor controllers (TSDZ2 and KT) and displays (Bafang 850C color, SW102 Bluetooth and KT-LCD3).

If you like my work, please consider making a donation. I am being using the donations to buy needed resources for my developments. My paypal: casainho AT gmail.com.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by sysrq » Jun 24 2018 7:33pm

Regarding shift sensors,.. I read somewhere that one of the high end manufacturers (maybe Bosch) "listens" for the unique sound shifting makes. Not sure what sensor they would use but the system may have to be tuned for a specific frame material to pick up the transmitted sound.

Using brake cutout switches without the brake would work but maybe you could make that switch work off the shifter movement instead. I am generally opposed to adding more layers of complication to fix a problem. I would be happy if the motor just cut of rapidly any time torque is not being applied. I understand you want the "soft start" but don't know why you would need a soft shutoff?
Sudden transient push when starting to pedal seems a bit too unnecessary on this mid drive. Soft start would help to prolong the lifespan of drive-train. Probably this trivial function was seen as unnecessary by the manufacturer.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Hillhater » Jun 25 2018 8:51am

Re "soft start".
Im certain that when using the throttle there is a definite soft start activated.
The motor speed ramps up progressively over 1-2 seconds...much slower than other similar set ups i have used.
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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by John and Cecil » Jun 25 2018 9:36am

Hillhater wrote:
Jun 25 2018 8:51am
Re "soft start".
Im certain that when using the throttle there is a definite soft start activated.
The motor speed ramps up progressively over 1-2 seconds...much slower than other similar set ups i have used.
The first second or so of throttle is no power whatsoever. Pushing the throttle will actually turn off the assist for maybe a second. That is how I can use it as a clutch. I have it down perfectly now. I just push the throttle an instant before shifting and release it as soon as I hear the chain engage the new cog. This makes for very fast and efficient shifts with no "gear/chain crunching".

Soft start with pedaling works too, just pedal softly and ramp up the power with your legs and the motor will mirror your input :)

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by sysrq » Jun 25 2018 10:08am

John and Cecil wrote:
Jun 25 2018 9:36am
Hillhater wrote:
Jun 25 2018 8:51am
Re "soft start".
Im certain that when using the throttle there is a definite soft start activated.
The motor speed ramps up progressively over 1-2 seconds...much slower than other similar set ups i have used.
The first second or so of throttle is no power whatsoever. Pushing the throttle will actually turn off the assist for maybe a second. That is how I can use it as a clutch. I have it down perfectly now. I just push the throttle an instant before shifting and release it as soon as I hear the chain engage the new cog. This makes for very fast and efficient shifts with no "gear/chain crunching".

Soft start with pedaling works too, just pedal softly and ramp up the power with your legs and the motor will mirror your input :)
Will have to bear that in mind. Seems obvious. Starting to pedal without the motor or with very little pressure seems like one of options. Integrated soft start would be more full-proof.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by wpenner » Jun 25 2018 11:02am

Took my new TSDZ2 setup to work a few times now. Ride home, 650ft elevation, went from 21 minutes to 16 minutes. Stock gearing seems fairly reasonable with a 9 speed cassette.

I had to pull off my crank to really tighten the bottom bracket nut as it was creaking like crazy.

I don't think i'll be using anything other than "turbo" mode with this 13s 500w setup.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by John and Cecil » Jun 25 2018 4:38pm

sysrq wrote:
Jun 25 2018 10:08am
Will have to bear that in mind. Seems obvious. Starting to pedal without the motor or with very little pressure seems like one of options. Integrated soft start would be more full-proof.
Casainho may eventually implement something like this. We discussed it back maybe 10-20 pages earlier. It would be nice to limit the motor's power output according to cadence/rpm. I dont recal exactly but I thought something like 100w 1-10rpm, 200w 11-20, 300w 21-30, 400w 31-40, 500w 41-50, 600w 51-60, 700w 61-70, no limit over 70.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by casainho » Jun 25 2018 5:07pm

John and Cecil wrote:
Jun 25 2018 4:38pm
sysrq wrote:
Jun 25 2018 10:08am
Will have to bear that in mind. Seems obvious. Starting to pedal without the motor or with very little pressure seems like one of options. Integrated soft start would be more full-proof.
Casainho may eventually implement something like this. We discussed it back maybe 10-20 pages earlier. It would be nice to limit the motor's power output according to cadence/rpm. I dont recal exactly but I thought something like 100w 1-10rpm, 200w 11-20, 300w 21-30, 400w 31-40, 500w 41-50, 600w 51-60, 700w 61-70, no limit over 70.
I am not thinking to do like that. I am thinking:
- cadence will be used to calculate human power: torque sensor value * cadence value
- human power will then be scaled beased on LCD assist level
- at the motor controller level, is already implemented a ramp up/down(with defined rate values from user) of motor phase voltage and I think it results on a soft start
- LCD assist level can be used to scale or torque sensor, or pedal cadence or human power -- we need to test and decided what will be best.
Developer of the Flexible OpenSource firmware for EBike motor controllers (TSDZ2 and KT) and displays (Bafang 850C color, SW102 Bluetooth and KT-LCD3).

If you like my work, please consider making a donation. I am being using the donations to buy needed resources for my developments. My paypal: casainho AT gmail.com.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Hillhater » Jun 25 2018 5:15pm

John and Cecil wrote:
Jun 25 2018 4:38pm
..... It would be nice to limit the motor's power output according to cadence/rpm. I dont recal exactly but I thought something like 100w 1-10rpm, 200w 11-20, 300w 21-30, 400w 31-40, 500w 41-50, 600w 51-60, 700w 61-70, no limit over 70.
Thatis something that i certainly would not want.
If i am riding a steep "technical" off road trail that needs low speed steep climbing, i want max power at all rpms..especially low. ..both from the pedals and instantly from the throttle...a 1-2 second delay can be the difference between getting over an obstical, or getting stuck.
That is also why i dont like the "soft start" on the throttle, it delays the response i need to avoid problems.
And isnt the Torque control doing exactly that anyway, ?..if you want less power assist, just dont press the pedals as hard ?
Maybe we just need a Tesla style "Ludicrous" mode , selectable from the display, that takes all restrictions off ( perhaps reconfigure the standard Turbo setting ?)
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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by hobbyvac » Jun 25 2018 6:03pm

Its amazing how everyone needs or wants something different and Im not being disrespectful.

I have the lowly 36 volt version and ride mostly off road in level 2. I use level three only occasionally and have no use for boost mode. I hate the feeling of "pedaling air" when the assist is too high. I still have some leg muscles left over from my racing days and like to feel like Im pushing against something.

My only goal by going electric was to be able to ride the same pace at the same effort as when I was young and fit. Its like the fountain of youth to me. I'm not trying to avoid exercise or sweating, I still crave the workout and the endorphins it generates. Im able to ride longer distances just below my anerobic threshold so I feel energized and the pace is fast enough to be exhilarating and keep up with young people.

Any faster off road would be unsafe, and any less effort would leave me wanting more exercise. I have motorcycles if I need greater speed, distance or just want transportation. I'm totally happy burning a few hundred watts along with my own glycogen.

The important thing is that Im riding more and getting old less. This little device takes 20 years off my age when I'm riding. That's a real gift at any price.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Hillhater » Jun 25 2018 9:01pm

hobbyvac wrote:
Jun 25 2018 6:03pm
Its amazing how everyone needs or wants something different .....
exactly !.. most users expect slightly different results from their bike experience.
It also depends on what you have been used to in the past.
Many of us have come from a "throttle based" control set up , ( both Ebike and ICE) where full power is available at any speed at your discretion. It takes some adapting to torque control let alone any amount power reduction settings, speed limiters or soft start.
That is why i miss the flexibility of controller settings via the display.
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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by dojrude » Jun 25 2018 9:53pm

Looking at the overdrive option, does this mean the following;

48v unit, 48v setting, 48v battery = 48v
36v unit, 36v setting, 48v battery = 48v overdrive
48v unit, 52v setting, 52v battery = 52v
48v unit, 48v setting, 52v battery = 52v overdrive

I'm also looking at Aliexpress and noting a lot of variation in units - 36v 250w, 36v 350w, 48v 500w, 48v 750w.

I understand the 36v and 48v units are physically different due to the number of windings on the motor, so looking at the 48v 500w and 700w units is the only difference that the amp limit has been set differently in the prom?

750/48=15.6A
500/48=10.4A

Does that mean I can take a cheaper 48v 500w model and reprogram for 17A current limit and effectively have a 52v overdrive unit (if used with 52v battery) as per Casainho's open source firmware notes?
Is 17A the recommended limit on these units?

Sorry for all the newb questions, still trying to get my head around it all.

Thanks.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Drum » Jun 25 2018 10:03pm

I agree that there is a wide range of preferences for control strategies based on riding styles, terrain and past experience, and nobody is "wrong" or "right".
I agree with Hillhater: for technical offroad riding, instant response to increased torque on the pedals (or throttle position) is what I would prefer (actually, I would NEED, not just prefer).
If you want soft start, learn to pedal gently at first then build up your own effort, or turn assistance level down before starting off...

I can understand that somebody riding mostly on level roads, who never needs to pop the front wheel up over a tree root half way up a steep climb just after a sharp corner, would be happy with a soft start.
So I guess the best possible system would have several "modes" as well as several assistance levels.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by angusinalberta » Jun 25 2018 10:32pm

Hillhater wrote:
Jun 25 2018 9:01pm
hobbyvac wrote:
Jun 25 2018 6:03pm
Its amazing how everyone needs or wants something different .....
exactly !.. most users expect slightly different results from their bike experience.
It also depends on what you have been used to in the past.
Many of us have come from a "throttle based" control set up , ( both Ebike and ICE) where full power is available at any speed at your discretion. It takes some adapting to torque control let alone any amount power reduction settings, speed limiters or soft start.
That is why i miss the flexibility of controller settings via the display.
Right on. There are two distinct philosophies floating about, the "throttle based" and what I think of as the "traditional".

We traditionalists have a lifetime's experience of pushing harder to go faster. Isn't that just what the torque sensor does? When it detects your push it signals the motor to push a bit harder too. It's all transparent, practically instant, and quite elegant. And the reason I chose the TS over the BBS02.

Angus

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by John and Cecil » Jun 25 2018 11:57pm

The problem I see is full power at low rpms is very bad for the motor. The blue gear is not designed to handle full power at low rpms, thus why some people have ripped it apart in as little as a week or two and others who are "careful" to ramp up power can get many 1000's of miles out of one. Metal gears may alleviate the nylon gear issue temporarily but then you are putting more stress and more wear on all the other engine components. An engine that has it's power limited at lower rpms by ramping up power as cadence increases will last much longer than an engine that has full power all the time, and it will require less maintenance. This motor is not meant to have full power at low rpms, it is a design flaw and many people have experienced that flaw in the form of a trashed blue nylon gear.

Sure, offroad racers want all power all the time. It reminds me of the Paterson NJ street races where kids would inject nitrous oxide into crappy little cars and rock for a few races, then toss the car away like a spent lighter. I for one prefer longevity and reliability from a motor, I have no problem pedaling up to a certain rpm from a start and then keeping the motor in the power band - much like the old 2 strokes.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by casainho » Jun 26 2018 12:17am

But we can have all that options, beause tecnhical is possible. We just need to implement and then test ourselves, we can't expect the producer Tongsheng to do all that for us.

Maybe you guys should invest more money and time to buy a spare motor for testing/developing our OpenSource firmware and so everyone will benefit (don't expect me or others to do what you guys want), even the paraplegic users like this one using TSDZ2 but needs higher sensitivity on the torque sensor because "pedals" with his smaller arms muscles:

Developer of the Flexible OpenSource firmware for EBike motor controllers (TSDZ2 and KT) and displays (Bafang 850C color, SW102 Bluetooth and KT-LCD3).

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Hillhater » Jun 26 2018 3:51am

A little extra info that may be of interest..
I connected my 48v, 750w, drive to a 12s pack via a wattmeter to record power and amps.
Max amps seen were 16.7 @ 47.5 v under heavy load pedaling up a hill.
But,..the same hill using only throttle (no pedaling) could only achieve 13.1 amps @ 47.7 v ??
So there seems to be some other restriction when using the throttle only
I can also confirm the throttle only has a. 2 sec soft start when used alone, but when used in conjunction with the torque control, the throttle initially cuts the power completely for a second, before starting its 2 sec soft start period ?
Last edited by Hillhater on Jun 26 2018 7:05am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by casainho » Jun 26 2018 4:00am

pawepie wrote:
Jun 22 2018 1:21pm
Thank you Casainho! Switching the wires at your suggestion works *perfectly*! The LCD3 is a *huge* upgrade with all the information. Cleaner and tidier setup...this motor is a dream :)

It's so cool to have motor watts *and* calculated human power at the same time. Love it!
Thanks for the feedback!!

See that previous LCD3 firmware was showing wheel speed to a max of 25.5km/h but I corrected that on the most recent code on master branch.
Developer of the Flexible OpenSource firmware for EBike motor controllers (TSDZ2 and KT) and displays (Bafang 850C color, SW102 Bluetooth and KT-LCD3).

If you like my work, please consider making a donation. I am being using the donations to buy needed resources for my developments. My paypal: casainho AT gmail.com.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by John and Cecil » Jun 26 2018 7:53am

Hillhater wrote:
Jun 26 2018 3:51am
A little extra info that may be of interest..
I connected my 48v, 750w, drive to a 12s pack via a wattmeter to record power and amps.
Max amps seen were 16.7 @ 47.5 v under heavy load pedaling up a hill.
But,..the same hill using only throttle (no pedaling) could only achieve 13.1 amps @ 47.7 v ??
So there seems to be some other restriction when using the throttle only
I can also confirm the throttle only has a. 2 sec soft start when used alone, but when used in conjunction with the torque control, the throttle initially cuts the power completely for a second, before starting its 2 sec soft start period ?
How do you use the throttle "alone" without the torque sensor? When I switch my assist mode off the throttle no longer functions.

That is interesting that the throttle may not be putting out as many amps as the torque sensor. I always climb hills with the throttle due to being able to stop pedaling or pedal as lightly as possible. I do not care about speed when climbing a hill, just that I don't tire myself out. I only pedal when my speed drops below 8mph so I can keep the motor breathing in it's upper rpm range.

Perhaps the motor puts out less power at lower rpms? If you were riding up the same hill and not pedaling you were probably going slower than your other test ride while pedaling.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by casainho » Jun 26 2018 8:02am

Throttles have different output range of voltages between them. I guess the thing is that your throttle output max voltage is lower than the voltage TSDZ2 motor controller is expecting.
Developer of the Flexible OpenSource firmware for EBike motor controllers (TSDZ2 and KT) and displays (Bafang 850C color, SW102 Bluetooth and KT-LCD3).

If you like my work, please consider making a donation. I am being using the donations to buy needed resources for my developments. My paypal: casainho AT gmail.com.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Waynemarlow » Jun 26 2018 10:43am

John and Cecil wrote:
Jun 25 2018 11:57pm
The problem I see is full power at low rpms is very bad for the motor. The blue gear is not designed to handle full power at low rpms, thus why some people have ripped it apart in as little as a week or two and others who are "careful" to ramp up power can get many 1000's of miles out of one. Metal gears may alleviate the nylon gear issue temporarily but then you are putting more stress and more wear on all the other engine components. An engine that has it's power limited at lower rpms by ramping up power as cadence increases will last much longer than an engine that has full power all the time, and it will require less maintenance. This motor is not meant to have full power at low rpms, it is a design flaw and many people have experienced that flaw in the form of a trashed blue nylon gear.

Sure, offroad racers want all power all the time. It reminds me of the Paterson NJ street races where kids would inject nitrous oxide into crappy little cars and rock for a few races, then toss the car away like a spent lighter. I for one prefer longevity and reliability from a motor, I have no problem pedaling up to a certain rpm from a start and then keeping the motor in the power band - much like the old 2 strokes.

Great analogy. I'm not sure you want full power instantaneously as it can create all sorts of havoc in single track riding. My Bafang was a real pain on the tighter uphill tracks until I dialled the ramping up, back a lot, it created such immediate force that one couldn't respond quick enough to the power and ended up with flip overs, and such like which was so reminiscent of my old early 2 stroke Enduro bikes, which were all about on or off power and just so tiring to ride .

I would also say that if you are using the motor at very low rpms that dare I say it but you must be in the wrong gear. With this motor its just so important to stop trashing the blue gear, to have revs at all time.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by John and Cecil » Jun 26 2018 4:57pm

I overcharged my battery but I was able to get my 48v motor to work with 56.6v today :) I think the trick is to pedal around very slowly holding the throttle, and after a minute or so if the motor kicks once hold the throttle and ride it out, and then after that the motor works fine. With the wheel off the ground the lowest voltage to work consistently on my 48v motor was 55.8v. I am not sure if it is accepting higher voltages over time or not, but it appears I can now charge my battery almost 1 full volt more. :)

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by eyebyesickle » Jun 26 2018 5:13pm

John and Cecil wrote:
Jun 26 2018 4:57pm
I overcharged my battery but I was able to get my 48v motor to work with 56.6v today :) I think the trick is to pedal around very slowly holding the throttle, and after a minute or so if the motor kicks once hold the throttle and ride it out, and then after that the motor works fine. With the wheel off the ground the lowest voltage to work consistently on my 48v motor was 55.8v. I am not sure if it is accepting higher voltages over time or not, but it appears I can now charge my battery almost 1 full volt more. :)
I experienced this 'extra allowance' over time way back with my first 48v motor. Ultimately I attributed it to a loosened connection and/or voltage drop.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Hillhater » Jun 26 2018 7:05pm

Waynemarlow wrote:
Jun 26 2018 10:43am
John and Cecil wrote:
Jun 25 2018 11:57pm
The problem I see is full power at low rpms is very bad for the motor. The blue gear is not designed to handle full power at low rpms, thus why some people have ripped it apart in as little as a week or two and others who are "careful" to ramp up power can get many 1000's of miles out of one. Metal gears may alleviate the nylon gear issue temporarily but then you are putting more stress and more wear on all the other engine components. An engine that has it's power limited at lower rpms by ramping up power as cadence increases will last much longer than an engine that has full power all the time, and it will require less maintenance. This motor is not meant to have full power at low rpms, it is a design flaw and many people have experienced that flaw in the form of a trashed blue nylon gear.

Great analogy. I'm not sure you want full power instantaneously as it can create all sorts of havoc in single track riding. My Bafang was a real pain on the tighter uphill tracks until I dialled the ramping up, back a lot, it created such immediate force that one couldn't respond quick enough to the power and ended up with flip overs,

I would also say that if you are using the motor at very low rpms that dare I say it but you must be in the wrong gear. With this motor its just so important to stop trashing the blue gear, to have revs at all time.
A different view on blue gear damage....
There is a difference between power, torque, and speed.
It possible to have full Torque available , without any :!: speed increase..if there is enough grip at the wheel, such as climbing a hill
As we know, electric drive has maximum torque from zero rpm up to some mid/high rpm point (unknown on the TS motor ? But likely 2-3000rpm )... conversely the Power output is low until the rpms increase (since power is proportional to torque and rpm.
So from loading on the "Blue gear" aspect, it doesnt matter if its at 0rpm, or 2000rpm... The max torque (force loading on the gear teeth) is the same.
Gear damage in my experience is usually due to "shock" loading,..sudden hard start loads, sudden speed changes, or sudden stops..like jumps, kerb drops, slipping on sand, mud or ice, then suddenly gripping again....all not good.!
Riding up a rocky trail hill is a classic situation and different speeds all carry the same risk of shock loading on the geartrain.
Regarding being in the right gear,..we are somewhat limited with the single front chainrings and motor design , so on tricky trail sections (very low speed, or stopped ) , even in the highest ratio (44/36) the motor is going to have to operate at low rpm. (yes, i am investigating a 50T rear sprocket, but that is not a simple or cheap option , and not worth it for the use i might give it).
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