New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by casainho » Jul 18 2018 6:36pm

Kisazul wrote:
Jul 18 2018 6:26pm
Use a thread lock and check the fixing of bolts more often. I missed this moment and the body broke in half.
I had one ebike that I could not fix the bolt (dual suspension) and I got similar result like the one you show.
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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Hillhater » Jul 18 2018 7:43pm

Kisazul wrote:
Jul 18 2018 6:26pm
Use a thread lock and check the fixing of bolts more often. I missed this moment and the body broke in half.
:shock: :shock: Wow !...... Superglue ? Duct tape ?
Im off to check that little 2 bolt bracket on the LH end of the BBracket ! :o :o i had not realised how critical it is to prevent any flex in the case.
I have a DS bike also that the chainstay clamp will not fit , so i use the "2 bolt" bracket as a torque plate with a tie link bolted up to the frame.
Im thinking now of making a solid packing piece to fit between the motor case and the bbracket shell to prevent any flexing of that gear housing/case that snapped.
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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by John and Cecil » Jul 18 2018 8:12pm

Yes wow indeed! I tested mine and I cannot budge it, even by hand. A heavy duty cable tie or clamp may help to hold it in place if the mounting bracket is slipping. I would estimate the cable tie I used at about 150lb tensile strength. I have a few 250lb ones but they are really big. Also I think a little extra torque on the bottom bracket nut might help as well. If worse comes to worse you can always use a little epoxy (jb weld, etc) in a place where you can get to with a dremel grind disk for when you need to remove the motor.

Thank you for the heads up

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Kisazul » Jul 18 2018 8:28pm

Hillhater wrote:
Jul 18 2018 7:43pm
Kisazul wrote:
Jul 18 2018 6:26pm
Use a thread lock and check the fixing of bolts more often. I missed this moment and the body broke in half.
:shock: :shock: Wow !...... Superglue ? Duct tape ?
Im off to check that little 2 bolt bracket on the LH end of the BBracket ! :o :o i had not realised how critical it is to prevent any flex in the case.
I have a DS bike also that the chainstay clamp will not fit , so i use the "2 bolt" bracket as a torque plate with a tie link bolted up to the frame.
Im thinking now of making a solid packing piece to fit between the motor case and the bbracket shell to prevent any flexing of that gear housing/case that snapped.
when the bolts gave the slack, the motor started turning and the fastener (green arrow) rested on the frame and created a lever that broke the body. As it seems to me it is necessary to enclose something or make an influx of aluminum on the body of the motor (orange) in order to make a more tight fit to the frame.
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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Hillhater » Jul 18 2018 8:42pm

Agree, but anything you put between the motor and the bbracket (orange area) would have to be removeable to allow the drive to be removed from the bike.
Or , are you suggesting a stronger , renforced case design to brace the gear case to the motor ?
That could interfere with lower frame tubes on some bikes.
Also if that LH steel 2 bolt bracket that attaches to the green fastner points is secure and locked tight onto the bbracket, then it should prevent the lever action that broke yours .
That small steel bracket is critical.
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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by John and Cecil » Jul 18 2018 10:24pm

I have another possible suggestion. Why not sand down the areas where the crack formed (before it cracks!) and apply several thick coats of JB Weld there to reinforce the aluminum where it is cracking. You can tape it in place to form a shapely repair and then sand it down and paint the repair black. I have used JB weld to repair cylinder heads and it is very strong, especially if you put it on thick. It certainly won't hurt, and the added support may be enough to strengthen the design flaw in the casting. It might also be a good idea to back off on the amp settings a little bit.

Perhaps a thick piece of rubber mounted to the motor next to that point of contact (orange circle) might help too, like the rubber used in an automotive exhaust hanger or something.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Kisazul » Jul 18 2018 10:46pm

Hillhater wrote:
Jul 18 2018 8:42pm
Agree, but anything you put between the motor and the bbracket (orange area) would have to be removeable to allow the drive to be removed from the bike.
Or , are you suggesting a stronger , renforced case design to brace the gear case to the motor ?
That could interfere with lower frame tubes on some bikes.
Also if that LH steel 2 bolt bracket that attaches to the green fastner points is secure and locked tight onto the bbracket, then it should prevent the lever action that broke yours .
That small steel bracket is critical.
Yes, I agree. From the lever saves metal plate. It should be good fixed, with lock thread. I even bought counter nuts. But for the bike with double suspension, where nowhere to fix the rear bolt from turn around BB. The absence of the rear attachment, and unfixed bolts + unfixed large nut BB led to turn. And one of the mounts metal plate (Green Arrow) push in the frame breaking the body. Perhaps should be in the Orange area to increase to evenly distribute the load from turn its axis. IMHO
P.s. sorry for my English
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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by John and Cecil » Jul 18 2018 10:52pm

You can crisscross (x pattern) a heavy duty cable tie around the bb and the motor in such a way that it will anchor the motor to the back of the bb on a full suspension bike. That is what I did with mine, although I only have 650 miles on it so far.

It may also be possible to use a hd cable tie that goes from the back of the motor and anchors it up against the back of the bb by going over the top of the bb and around the seat tube.
Last edited by John and Cecil on Jul 18 2018 11:02pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Kisazul » Jul 18 2018 10:53pm

John and Cecil wrote:
Jul 18 2018 10:24pm
I have another possible suggestion. Why not sand down the areas where the crack formed (before it cracks!) and apply several thick coats of JB Weld there to reinforce the aluminum where it is cracking. You can tape it in place to form a shapely repair and then sand it down and paint the repair black. I have used JB weld to repair cylinder heads and it is very strong, especially if you put it on thick. It certainly won't hurt, and the added support may be enough to strengthen the design flaw in the casting. It might also be a good idea to back off on the amp settings a little bit.

Perhaps a thick piece of rubber mounted to the motor next to that point of contact (orange circle) might help too, like the rubber used in an automotive exhaust hanger or something.
welding, perhaps, will only weaken the fault site. I somewhere read that the weld without heat treatment holds only about 40% of the factory heat-treated joint

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by John and Cecil » Jul 18 2018 10:58pm

Kisazul wrote:
Jul 18 2018 10:53pm
welding, perhaps, will only weaken the fault site. I somewhere read that the weld without heat treatment holds only about 40% of the factory heat-treated joint
[/quote]

No, I did not say repair the break. I said reinforce the area where it is breaking before it breaks. No heat with epoxy so you will not be weakening anything. The epoxy will help to spread out the weak seam and reinforce the stress area on the aluminum at the point where the housing ends. Look at where your motor broke, right on the edge where the motor casing gets thin. You need to thicken that seam and blend it better with the thin portion to absorb the stress better. It can only help, it could not possibly hurt.
Last edited by John and Cecil on Jul 18 2018 11:03pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by John and Cecil » Jul 18 2018 11:01pm

What I am saying above is there is a design flaw with the casing. It should not go from being thick to thin at that point along the seam where the housing becomes dish shaped. That seam should be thicker, and then the thickness of the dish should taper (gradually get thinner) as it extends away from the seam. If it was manufactured that way it probably would not have cracked. What I suggested was (since we cant make our own castings or dip our motors in molten aluminum) is to use epoxy as casting material and reinforce that seam and then taper the dish out to reinforce and relieve some of the pressure on the seam. I'm sorry I am not a structural engineer so I do not know any of the technical terms for this, it just makes sense to me. Hopefully this clears up any confusion.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Kisazul » Jul 18 2018 11:23pm

sorry, did not understand correctly. yes epoxy can strengthen the body.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by feketehegyi » Jul 19 2018 3:24am

Thanks for those pictures above, I've immediately checked and re-tightened all bolts. The hook spanner one on the big thread becomes loose along with the time always, as well as the pedal bolts.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by jbalat » Jul 19 2018 5:47am

Wow I have never used the plate. I just use a thick piece of rubber between the frame and motor to stop it rubbing against the frame. I use the plastic washers from my old bottom bracket on each side and tighten up the large locking nut. It hardly ever comes loose even after a hard day out mountain biking and jumps or 4500+ kms of commuting
IMG_20180719_13196.jpg
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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by jbalat » Jul 19 2018 6:04am

matte2k wrote:
Jul 17 2018 3:34am
I have a noise problem with my Tsdz2.
https://youtu.be/nx2GnmvNajo

As you can see the noise is only active when the motor is.

I have taken apart the motor gears (blue one) and bearings and see no damage or tear on any part.
Regreased it with Mobile28 grease.

After a few 100 meters. The sound is still there.
My blue gear also showed no visible signs of damage but when I replaced it with the metal gear the noise went away. It was a very similar noise to yours
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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by John and Cecil » Jul 19 2018 8:52am

I like that idea too Jbalat. I too was considering adding a thick piece of rubber between the top front of the motor and the front of the aluminum tube of the bike frame. The hole in the casting point explained above as the culprit is very close to touching my frame as it is, I think I am going to do this the next time I perform maintenance on my motor just to be safe. Having the casting break like that sucks, it basically turns a perfectly fine motor into a bunch of parts :(

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by hobbyvac » Jul 19 2018 10:45am

jbalat wrote:
Jul 19 2018 5:47am
Wow I have never used the plate. I just use a thick piece of rubber between the frame and motor to stop it rubbing against the frame. I use the plastic washers from my old bottom bracket on each side and tighten up the large locking nut. It hardly ever comes loose even after a hard day out mountain biking and jumps or 4500+ kms of commuting
IMG_20180719_13196.jpg
Put a large screwdriver in the left side gap where the plate is missing and pry. You will see an alarming amount of deflection.

Don't confuse good luck with good practice. That plate is critical to longevity.

JB weld will not reinforce aluminum. It has many good uses but no magical properties. The tensile strength is 1/10th that of aluminum. Under 4000 psi for JB weld and 40000 plus for aluminum depending on alloy, and the actual bond strength is only 1800 psi. I'm pretty sure its also less rigid so won't take any load at all if the substrate is stiffer. Its a great non structural patch and can make you feel better for using it but its no comparison to any metal as far as strength.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by John and Cecil » Jul 19 2018 12:08pm

hobbyvac wrote:
Jul 19 2018 10:45am

JB weld will not reinforce aluminum. It has many good uses but no magical properties. The tensile strength is 1/10th that of aluminum. Under 4000 psi for JB weld and 40000 plus for aluminum depending on alloy, and the actual bond strength is only 1800 psi. I'm pretty sure its also less rigid so won't take any load at all if the substrate is stiffer. Its a great non structural patch and can make you feel better for using it but its no comparison to any metal as far as strength.
It will not be as strong as aluminum but it could add quite a bit to the structural integrity. If it even increases that seam strength by 10-20% that might just be enough to stop it from cracking. There is no other economical option for repairing the casting as far as I am aware. If it is possible to epoxy a couple small steel plates to reinforce the area it might be even more helpful, but I do not see any other option. If it is put on think enough It should help alleviate some of the flex, it is the flex that is leading to the break. Reinforce the seam so it does not flex so easily and it will not break so easily.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Kisazul » Jul 19 2018 5:48pm

a graphic photo confirms that the small fastening of the metal plate on the body plays an important role. The photo shows that the mount stands behind the frame and does not create a large lever for fracture. My frame has a large width and fastening plate does not go out, rests against the frame and creates a large lever.
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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by jbalat » Jul 19 2018 6:43pm

Kisazul wrote:
Jul 19 2018 5:48pm
a graphic photo confirms that the small fastening of the metal plate on the body plays an important role. The photo shows that the mount stands behind the frame and does not create a large lever for fracture. My frame has a large width and fastening plate does not go out, rests against the frame and creates a large lever.
I would probably just use a thicker piece(s) of rubber to ensure there is some clearance to the frame. I use car heater hose since it seems to last longer than regular rubber.
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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Hillhater » Jul 19 2018 8:22pm

Kisazul wrote:
Jul 19 2018 5:48pm
a graphic photo confirms that the small fastening of the metal plate on the body plays an important role. The photo shows that the mount stands behind the frame and does not create a large lever for fracture. My frame has a large width and fastening plate does not go out, rests against the frame and creates a large lever.
Are you saying your bottom bracket is too wide to fit the support plate ?
If so, you should try to add spacers to the 2 mounting bolts.
The support plate is critical not just for torque issues but also if you bash the motor on an obstical etc.
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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Kisazul » Jul 19 2018 9:02pm

Hillhater wrote:
Jul 19 2018 8:22pm
Kisazul wrote:
Jul 19 2018 5:48pm
a graphic photo confirms that the small fastening of the metal plate on the body plays an important role. The photo shows that the mount stands behind the frame and does not create a large lever for fracture. My frame has a large width and fastening plate does not go out, rests against the frame and creates a large lever.
Are you saying your bottom bracket is too wide to fit the support plate ?
If so, you should try to add spacers to the 2 mounting bolts.
The support plate is critical not just for torque issues but also if you bash the motor on an obstical etc.
No. My width is BB standard 68 mm. But the lower tube of the frame is wide. almost the same width as the BB. And I use two spacer rings in each bolt

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by KD5ZXG » Jul 20 2018 12:06am

Which alloy might that be cast from?
I have my suspicions, from watching how
loudspeaker baskets were being cast in China.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zinc_aluminium

Could you repair it with a stick made for aluminum?
Or would zinc pot metal stick be more appropriate?

Maybe this stuff???
https://www.amazon.com/Blue-Demon-Alumi ... B077P6KNG2

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by AWD » Jul 20 2018 7:04am

The plate counteracts the rotational force distributed through the bb due to the drive side having more torque applied through the chain ring/final gear reduction than the left side with your human force applied. For this reason I would say it is a must have also.

As frames for integrated motors become more readily available, and already are pretty cheap it seems, as much as I like my TS I would move to one in a hot second given the right frame and most importantly the right motor. I don't need an integrated battery system as much as I would like to have a better Q factor and chain line with the possibility of using a smaller chainring so I don't feel like I have to go to a larger cassette which still doesn't address chain line. I have it as narrow as it will go but it is off centered due to the reduction housing. I don't really notice it while riding it just bugs me and I am not even OCD. ADD maybe....

I get the feeling you are not US based otherwise I know of at least one casing sitting on a shelf here on the west coast. PM me for details. You may be able to contact Tong Shen directly otherwise as it is just a part and I am sure they have spares sitting around.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by casainho » Jul 20 2018 9:05am

I just implemented 2 popular requested features: configure on the LCD the max current and max power.

In the following video you can see this new features working very well, when my ebike is on a training roller. After testing outside on a ride I can say they work very well just like on the video.

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