New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Discussions related to motors other than hub motors.
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andyme   1 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by andyme » Nov 05 2018 12:34pm

jeanl wrote:
Nov 05 2018 12:28pm
elem wrote:
Nov 05 2018 11:59am
https://elementaire01.blogspot.com/2018 ... cours.html
some frame modifications for integration ...

Sorry for bragging a bit... :lol:

Was a hell of a job and i cannot recommend to do it. But I am happy I did...
Well, I have alignment envy now!!! My chain isn't close to being aligned the way it should be...
just to confort you: what i did has zero impact on alignment of the chain....it is purely symmetry for the pedals, that's all, but i hated to have these 3-4 cm difference, and it was not only an optical issue.
re. chain line, i did nothing, but i am fine with the way it is, i must say.

Cristian   1 µW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Cristian » Nov 06 2018 6:34am

Hi,

Does anyone know what kind of cable i need for the battery, so i can plug it directly in the motor?

PS.: For a TSDZ2 48V with throttle.

Thank you!

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by andyme » Nov 06 2018 7:04am

Cristian wrote:
Nov 06 2018 6:34am
Hi,

Does anyone know what kind of cable i need for the battery, so i can plug it directly in the motor?

PS.: For a TSDZ2 48V with throttle.

Thank you!
I am not sure if i understand your question correctly. Is it that you have ordered the motor and want to prepare the battery so it will work right away when you get it? in this case: each end of the battery cable has one of these typical round single-pole connectors that are used in car electricity. you can get a small set of these in various sizes and then you can crimp a size that fits on your battery's cable.
s-l225.jpg
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Cristian   1 µW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Cristian » Nov 06 2018 7:38am

Thank you for your reply. Yes, that is correct. I was see there are some kind of bullet connectors coming from the motor. I saw an adapter from the bullet connectors to a more common XT60 connector, something like this. I was curious if an adapter like that would work. But i guess it depends on the exact size of the connectors.

I haven't ordered much yet, just planning the following:

TSDZ2 48V motor with throttle
Home made 52V battery


For casinho's firmware i made a list of parts i will need:

KT LCD3 display
ST-Link V2
Speed sensor extension cable
8 Pin Connector

I hope i have everything i need on the list. I want to order all of them and not forget something important, because i would have to wait for shipment an additional month or so, for something i didn't plan. So please advice if i missed something.

I have attached a picture of the bike i plan to convert. It has a Shimano Nexus 8 IGH. So i want to be able to limit the power and not destroy the gears inside.
Attachments
2018-10-05 16.27.06.jpg
Last edited by Cristian on Nov 06 2018 7:55am, edited 1 time in total.

andyme   1 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by andyme » Nov 06 2018 7:48am

i have actually installed XT60 connectors on my bike...you can actually do what you want as long as you don't mind some crimping and soldering :-)
as far as the speed sensor extension cable is concerned: i hope there is only one type and that it works. I think some people reported they had to be creative because some pins were missing...anyway...if you are willing to go for such an experimental project i am sure you are also willing to accept some unforeseen surprises :-) good luck!

I personally am already convinced after a couple of tries that this here is clearly superior to the original FW although that is far from being bad. And if the people who know how to code stay commited to the project, it is really worthwhile going for it.

crun   1 mW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by crun » Nov 06 2018 2:08pm

Schematics?

Does anyone have schematic source file for the LCD3 ?

Has anyone done a full or partial TSDZ2 controller schematic?

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by nbdriver » Nov 07 2018 7:25am

Just a question,

I currently have a 36V TSDZ2 with custom firmware up and running great for Two years now.
I'm planning to make a second ebike with the same motor, but should i go with 36V or 48V motor…

andyme   1 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by andyme » Nov 07 2018 7:36am

nbdriver wrote:
Nov 07 2018 7:25am
Just a question,

I currently have a 36V TSDZ2 with custom firmware up and running great for Two years now.
I'm planning to make a second ebike with the same motor, but should i go with 36V or 48V motor…
to put it simple (from my understanding, of course):

the drawback of 48V is that your battery will have to get larger (13 cells vs. 10 cells per unit) in order not to loose out on capacity

the advantage of 48V is that you can get more power, the reason being that the current is the limiting factor. so, if e.g. 18 Amps is the max current that the motors can take, you will get nominal up to 36 x 18 and 48 x 18 Watts in the respective versions.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Rydon » Nov 07 2018 3:42pm

andyme wrote:
Nov 07 2018 7:36am
nbdriver wrote:
Nov 07 2018 7:25am
Just a question,

I currently have a 36V TSDZ2 with custom firmware up and running great for Two years now.
I'm planning to make a second ebike with the same motor, but should i go with 36V or 48V motor…
to put it simple (from my understanding, of course):

the drawback of 48V is that your battery will have to get larger (13 cells vs. 10 cells per unit) in order not to loose out on capacity

the advantage of 48V is that you can get more power, the reason being that the current is the limiting factor. so, if e.g. 18 Amps is the max current that the motors can take, you will get nominal up to 36 x 18 and 48 x 18 Watts in the respective versions.
To clarify the above - amp hours are only a good measure of capacity at a given voltage. As soon as you vary the volts as in 36 vs 48 volt batteries then watt hours are the best measure of capacity. For example a 48v 10ah battery has 120 watt hours more capacity than a 36v 10ah battery.

To answer the original question, a 48v motor is wound to have more torque than a 36v motor at a given voltage or speed. The controllers of the 48v and 36v motors are identical. They are just programmed to accept a different voltage range from the battery. With the new open source firmware you can reprogram the controller to allow a broad spectrum of battery voltages (~24-52v). At higher voltages the motors spin faster and assist at higher cadences. The primary difference between the 36v and 48v motors are that they are wound differently to have different rpm and torque values at a given voltage. The 48v motor has more torque and lower speed at a given voltage and the 36v motor has more speed but lower torque. If you ride in mostly flat areas with light loads you may enjoy the extra speed from the 36v motor but if you ride in a hilly area and/or carry heavy loads you will most likely prefer the 48v motor as it will have more power and run more efficiently in those conditions.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by andyme » Nov 07 2018 4:32pm

Rydon wrote:
Nov 07 2018 3:42pm
andyme wrote:
Nov 07 2018 7:36am
nbdriver wrote:
Nov 07 2018 7:25am
Just a question,

I currently have a 36V TSDZ2 with custom firmware up and running great for Two years now.
I'm planning to make a second ebike with the same motor, but should i go with 36V or 48V motor…
to put it simple (from my understanding, of course):

the drawback of 48V is that your battery will have to get larger (13 cells vs. 10 cells per unit) in order not to loose out on capacity

the advantage of 48V is that you can get more power, the reason being that the current is the limiting factor. so, if e.g. 18 Amps is the max current that the motors can take, you will get nominal up to 36 x 18 and 48 x 18 Watts in the respective versions.
To clarify the above - amp hours are only a good measure of capacity at a given voltage. As soon as you vary the volts as in 36 vs 48 volt batteries then watt hours are the best measure of capacity. For example a 48v 10ah battery has 120 watt hours more capacity than a 36v 10ah battery.

To answer the original question, a 48v motor is wound to have more torque than a 36v motor at a given voltage or speed. The controllers of the 48v and 36v motors are identical. They are just programmed to accept a different voltage range from the battery. With the new open source firmware you can reprogram the controller to allow a broad spectrum of battery voltages (~24-52v). At higher voltages the motors spin faster and assist at higher cadences. The primary difference between the 36v and 48v motors are that they are wound differently to have different rpm and torque values at a given voltage. The 48v motor has more torque and lower speed at a given voltage and the 36v motor has more speed but lower torque. If you ride in mostly flat areas with light loads you may enjoy the extra speed from the 36v motor but if you ride in a hilly area and/or carry heavy loads you will most likely prefer the 48v motor as it will have more power and run more efficiently in those conditions.
Ok, this is something that i do not understand: that a motor has torque - ok, that it has power - also ok. But how can it have speed? (and i am not talking about the fact that it is mounted and fixed to a bike :-))

For my understanding, the motor helps you pedalling (assuming that you do not use it like a motorcycle). so the speed comes only from the rider. The point is only that thru the help of the motor, the rider is able to achieve the required speed, while without the motor it would be beyond his forces. So i see the motor as a supplier of torque, because this is what makes pedalling easier.

Maybe you can explain to me what i got wrong here.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by jur » Nov 07 2018 6:01pm

andyme wrote:
Nov 07 2018 4:32pm
Ok, this is something that i do not understand: that a motor has torque - ok, that it has power - also ok. But how can it have speed? (and i am not talking about the fact that it is mounted and fixed to a bike :-))

For my understanding, the motor helps you pedalling (assuming that you do not use it like a motorcycle). so the speed comes only from the rider. The point is only that thru the help of the motor, the rider is able to achieve the required speed, while without the motor it would be beyond his forces. So i see the motor as a supplier of torque, because this is what makes pedalling easier.

Maybe you can explain to me what i got wrong here.
The reason that rotational speed is also a factor, is because as the rotor rotates, the rotor magnets generate a voltage on the field coils that is effectively opposite in polarity to the voltage applied by the controller (called back EMF). The higher the rotational speed, the bigger the back EMF. So at a critical speed, the generated back EMF is equal to the maximum voltage the controller applies, and at that critical speed, no current flows in the field coils, resulting in zero torque.

So, as the speed increases, the back EMF increases as well, resulting in lower torque generated with increasing speed.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by andyme » Nov 07 2018 6:33pm

jur wrote:
Nov 07 2018 6:01pm
andyme wrote:
Nov 07 2018 4:32pm
Ok, this is something that i do not understand: that a motor has torque - ok, that it has power - also ok. But how can it have speed? (and i am not talking about the fact that it is mounted and fixed to a bike :-))

For my understanding, the motor helps you pedalling (assuming that you do not use it like a motorcycle). so the speed comes only from the rider. The point is only that thru the help of the motor, the rider is able to achieve the required speed, while without the motor it would be beyond his forces. So i see the motor as a supplier of torque, because this is what makes pedalling easier.

Maybe you can explain to me what i got wrong here.
The reason that rotational speed is also a factor, is because as the rotor rotates, the rotor magnets generate a voltage on the field coils that is effectively opposite in polarity to the voltage applied by the controller (called back EMF). The higher the rotational speed, the bigger the back EMF. So at a critical speed, the generated back EMF is equal to the maximum voltage the controller applies, and at that critical speed, no current flows in the field coils, resulting in zero torque.

So, as the speed increases, the back EMF increases as well, resulting in lower torque generated with increasing speed.
wow...ok...this is really deep knowledge...With all due respect, i think this surpasses the comprehension of many people, at least it does surpass mine.

Can you please maybe explain terms that are commonly used, because i think these are the terms that many people are used to: I am talking of Watts, Volts, Amps.

Was I wrong in saying that a 48V motor can be "stronger" (i.e. have more Watts/ Horse Power) than a motor with 36V? provided both motors have the same maximum current value?
Can it really be in real practical life, that a 36V motor will actually have advantages over a 48 V motor? especially since we have customizable software?
By all means i am not being cynical, these are sincere questions.
If i take cars for example: where and when would a car with 100 HP be superior to a car with 200 HP? even more if the motor characteristics are being controlled by software/firmware?

So therefore, not knowing what you know, i have a real problem to understand if and why and when a 36V motor could perform better than a 48 V motor no matter how bad he tries (meaning: how well the firmware may be adapted)

so: what would really be a good reason to prefer a 36V motor over a 48 V motor

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by jur » Nov 07 2018 8:58pm

andyme wrote:
Nov 07 2018 6:33pm
jur wrote:
Nov 07 2018 6:01pm
andyme wrote:
Nov 07 2018 4:32pm
Ok, this is something that i do not understand: that a motor has torque - ok, that it has power - also ok. But how can it have speed? (and i am not talking about the fact that it is mounted and fixed to a bike :-))

For my understanding, the motor helps you pedalling (assuming that you do not use it like a motorcycle). so the speed comes only from the rider. The point is only that thru the help of the motor, the rider is able to achieve the required speed, while without the motor it would be beyond his forces. So i see the motor as a supplier of torque, because this is what makes pedalling easier.

Maybe you can explain to me what i got wrong here.
The reason that rotational speed is also a factor, is because as the rotor rotates, the rotor magnets generate a voltage on the field coils that is effectively opposite in polarity to the voltage applied by the controller (called back EMF). The higher the rotational speed, the bigger the back EMF. So at a critical speed, the generated back EMF is equal to the maximum voltage the controller applies, and at that critical speed, no current flows in the field coils, resulting in zero torque.

So, as the speed increases, the back EMF increases as well, resulting in lower torque generated with increasing speed.
wow...ok...this is really deep knowledge...With all due respect, i think this surpasses the comprehension of many people, at least it does surpass mine.

Can you please maybe explain terms that are commonly used, because i think these are the terms that many people are used to: I am talking of Watts, Volts, Amps.

Was I wrong in saying that a 48V motor can be "stronger" (i.e. have more Watts/ Horse Power) than a motor with 36V? provided both motors have the same maximum current value?
Can it really be in real practical life, that a 36V motor will actually have advantages over a 48 V motor? especially since we have customizable software?
By all means i am not being cynical, these are sincere questions.
If i take cars for example: where and when would a car with 100 HP be superior to a car with 200 HP? even more if the motor characteristics are being controlled by software/firmware?

So therefore, not knowing what you know, i have a real problem to understand if and why and when a 36V motor could perform better than a 48 V motor no matter how bad he tries (meaning: how well the firmware may be adapted)

so: what would really be a good reason to prefer a 36V motor over a 48 V motor
My Apologies. I am an electrical engineer and I ran off with what I am familiar with. :)

A 36V motor can be exactly as powerful as a 48V motor. Say for a given power (watts) the 36V motor would take a proportional higher amount of amps compared to the 48V motor, because watts=volts*amps. To keep energy (Wh, watt-hour) equal, the 36V battery needs to have a proportional higher amount of Ah (ampere-hour) than the 48V battery.

Higher current (amps) needs beefier wires and connectors, so to use a 48V motor usually results in less power wasted ie better efficiency because it delivers the same power while using less amps.

The back EMF is simply volts appearing on the motor windings as the rotor turns, the dynamo effect. Once that dynamo effect is equal to the maximum volts that can be delivered by the controller, the controller can't force any amps into the winding; it needs the volts on the winding to be less to be able to force amps into the windings.

Hope this makes it a bit clearer. :D

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by jur » Nov 07 2018 9:42pm

Adding to that, a 36V motor generates less volts (ie lower back EMF) than the 48V motor so at the same voltage applied by the controller, the 36V motor would top out at higher speed than the 48V battery.

However, because a 36V motor has fewer turns on the field coils, more current is needed to generate the same torque as a 48V motor, because torque is proportional to amps*turns. Therefore the maximum amps from the controller must be set to a higher value for the 36V motor to generate the same torque as the 48V case. That would produce more wasted power (ie heat) in places like the battery management system (BMS).

On balance, you get more from a 48V motor, except speed.

casainho's firmware is better than the original f/w because it incorporates compensation for the orientation of the magnetic field to make sure the maximum volts is aligned with the rotating vector of the motor field. That way, more volts is effectively applied to the rotating field, allowing current to flow at higher rotation speed. So his f/w gets more performance from the 48V motor.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by jbalat » Nov 07 2018 10:42pm

I have been getting a lot of rubbing lately from the inside of the chainring to the motor.. Yes it does normally rub, you can see a big wear mark on the inside of the chainring but lately its been squeaking and getting annoying

If I grab the chainring it will tilt some.. Anyone else have this issue
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Tech talk TSDZ2 Opensource firmware viewtopic.php?f=30&t=93818&start=150

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by ri53hu » Nov 08 2018 3:16am

For Jbalat.
I have a 48v engine and I also have an eccentric clearance on the pedal axis so about 1-1.5 mm. I think the bad bearings motor will have about 1450 km and the engine is still under warranty so let me show it.

I use compiler R.
Last edited by ri53hu on Nov 08 2018 5:18am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by shaddi » Nov 08 2018 3:34am

jbalat wrote:
Nov 07 2018 10:42pm
I have been getting a lot of rubbing lately from the inside of the chainring to the motor.. Yes it does normally rub, you can see a big wear mark on the inside of the chainring but lately its been squeaking and getting annoying

If I grab the chainring it will tilt some.. Anyone else have this issue
Yes, me too. Where the hell is it touching something? Have to get a closer look...

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by nbdriver » Nov 08 2018 3:36am

Thank you all for all these informations about motors. But one more question is it dangerous for my 36V motor to run on a 13S Battery ? That question because if i order a 48V Motor for my other bike i would like to be able to use the battery on both bikes.

Thank you,

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Bash1303 » Nov 08 2018 3:48am

jbalat wrote:
Nov 07 2018 10:42pm
I have been getting a lot of rubbing lately from the inside of the chainring to the motor.. Yes it does normally rub, you can see a big wear mark on the inside of the chainring but lately its been squeaking and getting annoying

If I grab the chainring it will tilt some.. Anyone else have this issue
I had the same problem.
It was the chain ring touching the reduction gears plastic cover (the indelt that covers the small gear). Adjusted the seal under the plastic cover especially att the two corners so that it is propperly under and pushen the plastic cover in place. That resolved the issue.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by vscope » Nov 08 2018 5:34am

nbdriver wrote:
Nov 08 2018 3:36am
Thank you all for all these informations about motors. But one more question is it dangerous for my 36V motor to run on a 13S Battery ? That question because if i order a 48V Motor for my other bike i would like to be able to use the battery on both bikes.

Thank you,
I am running my 36V motor on 12S Lipos for about 1500km now without a problem.
So 13S will no problem either.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by andyme » Nov 08 2018 1:20pm

Voltage Drop over distance with OS firmware..typical average experienced value

Hi, I wonder what your experience is: It is now a bit colder admitedly (about 10 degrees C).

My battery is 13s3p Konion VTC6 cells

I am starting at 54,2 Volts (measured with external voltmeter) and after 20 km of what i would call really moderate riding (no real offroad, easy going, speed average around 18-20 km/h, cadence about 70, a bit of moderate climbing) I am down at 45 Volts.

this means a drop of 0,45V per km, and i remember that with the original firmware I experienced rather 0,2-0,3 V. But it was warmer then...say 20-25 degrees C.

Is this a value that could correspond to your experience?

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by mctubster » Nov 08 2018 10:07pm

andyme wrote:
Nov 08 2018 1:20pm
Voltage Drop over distance with OS firmware..typical average experienced value

Hi, I wonder what your experience is: It is now a bit colder admitedly (about 10 degrees C).

My battery is 13s3p Konion VTC6 cells
The voltage of Li batteries is a very poor measure of state of charge (unless rested for hours and measured at a constant temperature). You are right that lower temperatures can substantially (temporary) reduce Li batteries voltage, especially under load.

Not a useful measurement in my opinion. You need a coulomb meter if you want to accurately track capacity, state of charge.

Regards

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by andyme » Nov 09 2018 2:57am

mctubster wrote:
Nov 08 2018 10:07pm
andyme wrote:
Nov 08 2018 1:20pm
Voltage Drop over distance with OS firmware..typical average experienced value

Hi, I wonder what your experience is: It is now a bit colder admitedly (about 10 degrees C).

My battery is 13s3p Konion VTC6 cells
The voltage of Li batteries is a very poor measure of state of charge (unless rested for hours and measured at a constant temperature). You are right that lower temperatures can substantially (temporary) reduce Li batteries voltage, especially under load.

Not a useful measurement in my opinion. You need a coulomb meter if you want to accurately track capacity, state of charge.

Regards
But at the end of the day (actually much earlier...) it is going to be the voltage measurement that is going to control my ride...because at 39 volts it is gonna end...

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by jbalat » Nov 09 2018 8:10am

Andyme, the OS firmware is more efficient but the standard setup provides a lot more power than the original firmware. That’s why everyone immediately loves it when they try it. The more power you use the quicker your battery will go flat.

Temperature does play a role here at 10deg C the battery sags a lot. But try this...

1. Use the middle and top buttons to set your power limit to 200w.

2. The faster you go, the more drag. Set the speed limiter to 25km/hr and the drag is minimal. You will find you will be using less than 150w and your battery will last all day !!!

Above 30km/hr the drag really starts to kick in, and at 40km/hr you will be using more than twice the power !!

Try this calculator below and do some tests yourself using different speed and throttle levels, the bottom right shows your range with these settings. For instance running with 30% throttle at 25km/hr may give you 100km range but using 100% throttle will give you 45km/hr and only 20km range.

https://www.ebikes.ca/tools/simulator.html

Hope this helps :)
Last edited by jbalat on Nov 09 2018 8:21am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by nbdriver » Nov 09 2018 8:21am

In my experience, i use a little bit less battery (average) to commute to work with the open source firmware vs Original firmware.
For the same travel time and conditions. What also helps to save power is the better customisation and modularity in assist levels.

I'm still hesitating between 36V or 48V Motor for my wife bicycle, it will be used for recreational use and not at high speeds, but needs a good level of assist for lazy riding. Is the 48V motor giving power at lower cadences vs the 36V one ? Or is it spinning faster ?

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