New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Discussions related to motors other than hub motors.
This includes R/C motors, botttom bracket, roller and geared drives.
mctubster   100 mW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by mctubster » Nov 26 2018 4:08pm

Ron Paul's Blimp wrote:
Nov 25 2018 6:52pm

... The noise is pretty loud and unpleasant:

I then compared it to my BBS02, which sounds much quieter and doesn't have that terrible cyclic noise the TSDZ2 does. Is it normal? Defective? Should I return it? I don't care about using walk assist, I just want to make sure the motor doesn't have a problem before I void its warranty by flashing it.
I also have a BBS01B. The TSDZ2 is a lot louder. Unpleasant in comparison. Having the motor attached to a frame will change the noise profile. My motor sounds a little unbalanced, so depending on the RPM it can get some interesting resonant noise (eg 34-35V battery voltage). Perhaps this is what yours is doing? I put up with the noise because the motor is a lot more useful to me with torque detection and power at higher RPMs.

I just uploaded a video of my motor running using the original firmware with low voltage. Note it is working hard, I am climbing a grass hill which is pretty steep, with 45kg of bike and 25kg cargo. I spin out near the end on the path to show the overrun noise and I stop start peddling a few times to show that noise too.

https://youtu.be/SOCH_FhZrV8

andyme   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by andyme » Nov 26 2018 5:26pm

mctubster wrote:
Nov 26 2018 4:08pm
Ron Paul's Blimp wrote:
Nov 25 2018 6:52pm

... The noise is pretty loud and unpleasant:

I then compared it to my BBS02, which sounds much quieter and doesn't have that terrible cyclic noise the TSDZ2 does. Is it normal? Defective? Should I return it? I don't care about using walk assist, I just want to make sure the motor doesn't have a problem before I void its warranty by flashing it.
I also have a BBS01B. The TSDZ2 is a lot louder. Unpleasant in comparison. Having the motor attached to a frame will change the noise profile. My motor sounds a little unbalanced, so depending on the RPM it can get some interesting resonant noise (eg 34-35V battery voltage). Perhaps this is what yours is doing? I put up with the noise because the motor is a lot more useful to me with torque detection and power at higher RPMs.

I just uploaded a video of my motor running using the original firmware with low voltage. Note it is working hard, I am climbing a grass hill which is pretty steep, with 45kg of bike and 25kg cargo. I spin out near the end on the path to show the overrun noise and I stop start peddling a few times to show that noise too.

https://youtu.be/SOCH_FhZrV8
yeah..that's my good ol' tsdz2...haha...i personally can imagine that the noise from the bench can become this under these circumstances...can you do walk assist? maybe this would produce the noise that RPB is experiencing or have you flashed already.

mctubster   100 mW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by mctubster » Nov 26 2018 5:48pm

Have flashed already. Never tried walk assist

Ron Paul's Blimp   1 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Ron Paul's Blimp » Nov 27 2018 2:13am

mctubster wrote:
Nov 26 2018 4:08pm
I also have a BBS01B. The TSDZ2 is a lot louder. Unpleasant in comparison. Having the motor attached to a frame will change the noise profile. My motor sounds a little unbalanced, so depending on the RPM it can get some interesting resonant noise (eg 34-35V battery voltage). Perhaps this is what yours is doing? I put up with the noise because the motor is a lot more useful to me with torque detection and power at higher RPMs.

I just uploaded a video of my motor running using the original firmware with low voltage. Note it is working hard, I am climbing a grass hill which is pretty steep, with 45kg of bike and 25kg cargo. I spin out near the end on the path to show the overrun noise and I stop start peddling a few times to show that noise too.

https://youtu.be/SOCH_FhZrV8
Thanks a lot for the video, that's helpful. I noticed it looked like you had full assist on. Does it improve at all at lower assist levels? My goal with this build is to use very little assist except for on a massive hill climb I have at the end of my commute. So I don't mind it getting loud when I'm crawling up that extreme hill, but outside of that I'd like it not sound like a coffee grinder or somebody stepping on a duck.

andyme   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by andyme » Nov 27 2018 5:35am

nz_bound wrote:
Nov 26 2018 9:01pm

What is a safe limit on this value? Can it be set too high and strip the blue gear, or are there other safeguards in place to prevent internal damage?
you have 2 safety features: one is that max current is limited to 18 Amps whatever your setting is and the second one is to integrate a temperature sensor. you can see how to do that on jbalat's video on page 155 of this thread.

the purpose of the max power setting is e.g. to save battery or to help ensure your workout level does not get too low etc..

i don't think that there is a clear and reasonable value that will ensure that your blue gear will not break. i had this issue very early and with stock firmware. it is not a big thing to replace it with the metal version and i had no issues ever since. But of course you can set the max limit to what ever value suits you when you think that you don't need more assist. Or you change the assist multipliers in the settings. to my opinion the default settings are too high. you should probably set a couple of levels to values below 1 ( i have level 1 at 0.5, level 2 at 0.7 and level 3 at 1.0) and then you will see that you will not hit max power in these levels most probably...

dameri   10 mW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by dameri » Nov 27 2018 9:14am

andyme wrote:
Nov 26 2018 3:17pm
dameri wrote:
Nov 26 2018 3:01pm
It's like that:

https://tinyurl.com/y954vh6j
yes, that is throttle..but he does not have one. so what he tried was "walk-assist" mode, where the bike will go next to you with 6 km/h when you walk so you don't have to push it. do you have this feature on your LCD5?

There is no one button or button combination fo walk assist in VLCD5. In submenu you can set walk assist on or off. If I put walk assist off in my system thottle don't work. When I put it on I have to push throttle if I want to bike run next to me. It also can used when driving. So you don't have to pedal if you push throttle.

Here is one instruction for VLCD 5: http://wooshbikes.co.uk/2018/tsdz2/VLCD5.pdf

I also tested sound today. No difference in sound if I am pedaling or with thottle. Sound does not bother me. I use commonly assist level 2 (tour) or 3 (speed). Sound is little bit louder when driving faster. On stock version level one (eco) don't assist almost at all and assist level 4 (turbo) is too restless I think.

I think wind is buzzing in my ears more than I hear the motor sound. So I don't care very much that sound. So my motor has not quacking sound.

andyme   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by andyme » Nov 27 2018 9:38am

dameri wrote:
Nov 27 2018 9:14am
andyme wrote:
Nov 26 2018 3:17pm
dameri wrote:
Nov 26 2018 3:01pm
It's like that:

https://tinyurl.com/y954vh6j
yes, that is throttle..but he does not have one. so what he tried was "walk-assist" mode, where the bike will go next to you with 6 km/h when you walk so you don't have to push it. do you have this feature on your LCD5?

There is no one button or button combination fo walk assist in VLCD5. In submenu you can set walk assist on or off. If I put walk assist off in my system thottle don't work. When I put it on I have to push throttle if I want to bike run next to me. It also can used when driving. So you don't have to pedal if you push throttle.

Here is one instruction for VLCD 5: http://wooshbikes.co.uk/2018/tsdz2/VLCD5.pdf

I also tested sound today. No difference in sound if I am pedaling or with thottle. Sound does not bother me. I use commonly assist level 2 (tour) or 3 (speed). Sound is little bit louder when driving faster. On stock version level one (eco) don't assist almost at all and assist level 4 (turbo) is too restless I think.

I think wind is buzzing in my ears more than I hear the motor sound. So I don't care very much that sound. So my motor has not quacking sound.
Thank you very much!

dameri   10 mW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by dameri » Nov 27 2018 9:41am

You are wellcome.

casainho   100 MW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by casainho » Nov 27 2018 8:23pm

I would say that implementation of firmware for Bafang 850C color LCD is at 70%. I hope to finish first working version and put on my ebike on the next week.

I finished the structure of configuration menu and now it works well (just some minor visual issues as seen on the video) -- adding other items to the menu is very fast.

The main screen need to be improved as there are information missing. Also the new unique feature of showing time and hours is not done yet, it is something new to me.

Developer of the Flexible OpenSource firmware for EBike motor controllers (TSDZ2 and KT) and LCDs (KT-LCD3 and Bafang 850C color LCD).

If you like my work, you can consider making a donation. I am being using the donations to buy needed resources for my developments. My paypal: casainho AT gmail.com.

andyme   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by andyme » Nov 28 2018 4:50am

casainho wrote:
Nov 27 2018 8:23pm
I would say that implementation of firmware for Bafang 850C color LCD is at 70%. I hope to finish first working version and put on my ebike on the next week.

I finished the structure of configuration menu and now it works well (just some minor visual issues as seen on the video) -- adding other items to the menu is very fast.

The main screen need to be improved as there are information missing. Also the new unique feature of showing time and hours is not done yet, it is something new to me.

Really cool, i have ordered 2 für me and my girlfriend. It is just a pity that it seems no one is taking care of the pending points...I am afraid we have lost EC...?

Popo15   1 µW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Popo15 » Nov 28 2018 9:11am

a great job thank you for your dedication and provide a greeting :thumb:

sysrq   100 mW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by sysrq » Nov 28 2018 4:58pm

Ron Paul's Blimp wrote:
Nov 25 2018 6:52pm
I got my motor today (48V). I plan on using the open source firmware, but I wanted to bench test it with the stock firmware first to make sure it works before I void the warranty. I couldn't figure out a safe way to put enough torque on the cranks with it benched to get the motor to turn, so I tried walk assist mode.

The noise is pretty loud and unpleasant:



I then compared it to my BBS02, which sounds much quieter and doesn't have that terrible cyclic noise the TSDZ2 does. Is it normal? Defective? Should I return it? I don't care about using walk assist, I just want to make sure the motor doesn't have a problem before I void its warranty by flashing it.
Have the same type of noise in walk assist mode as well. On top of that it seems like it has suddenly developed some sort of a gear meshing noise when spinning the cranks with the motor completely turned of. Probably due to riding in a 14t sprocket for two hours on the flat with 90 rpm cadence and forgetting to downshift before starting again. Shame can't remember what was it like when it was new, as always. The only thing I remember was occasional plastic like curling noise.
Last edited by sysrq on Nov 28 2018 10:19pm, edited 3 times in total.

mctubster   100 mW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by mctubster » Nov 28 2018 7:16pm

Ron Paul's Blimp wrote:
Nov 27 2018 2:13am

Thanks a lot for the video, that's helpful. I noticed it looked like you had full assist on. Does it improve at all at lower assist levels? My goal with this build is to use very little assist except for on a massive hill climb I have at the end of my commute. So I don't mind it getting loud when I'm crawling up that extreme hill, but outside of that I'd like it not sound like a coffee grinder or somebody stepping on a duck.
Noise a little less under lower assist levels - unfortunately the motor is generally a lot louder than a Bafang and I haven't yet tried to work out why...

Will be riding my TSDZ2 bike tomorrow so will make another recording with the opensource firmware at different assist levels for comparison. Will be same phone and similar position, so reasonably comparable.

Ron Paul's Blimp   1 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Ron Paul's Blimp » Nov 29 2018 3:36am

sysrq wrote:
Nov 28 2018 4:58pm
Have the same type of noise in walk assist mode as well. On top of that it seems like it has suddenly developed some sort of a gear meshing noise when spinning the cranks with the motor completely turned of. Probably due to riding in a 14t sprocket for two hours on the flat with 90 rpm cadence and forgetting to downshift before starting again. Shame can't remember what was it like when it was new, as always. The only thing I remember was occasional plastic like curling noise.
mctubster wrote:
Nov 28 2018 7:16pm
Noise a little less under lower assist levels - unfortunately the motor is generally a lot louder than a Bafang and I haven't yet tried to work out why...

Will be riding my TSDZ2 bike tomorrow so will make another recording with the opensource firmware at different assist levels for comparison. Will be same phone and similar position, so reasonably comparable.
Thank you both. It's too bad it's so loud. It seems like the perfect motor for me other than that. I thought I read someone speculate once it might be because the gears are straight-cut instead of helical. I wonder if it'd be possible to find replacements to swap in?

andyme   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by andyme » Nov 29 2018 6:06am

Ron Paul's Blimp wrote:
Nov 29 2018 3:36am
sysrq wrote:
Nov 28 2018 4:58pm
Have the same type of noise in walk assist mode as well. On top of that it seems like it has suddenly developed some sort of a gear meshing noise when spinning the cranks with the motor completely turned of. Probably due to riding in a 14t sprocket for two hours on the flat with 90 rpm cadence and forgetting to downshift before starting again. Shame can't remember what was it like when it was new, as always. The only thing I remember was occasional plastic like curling noise.
mctubster wrote:
Nov 28 2018 7:16pm
Noise a little less under lower assist levels - unfortunately the motor is generally a lot louder than a Bafang and I haven't yet tried to work out why...

Will be riding my TSDZ2 bike tomorrow so will make another recording with the opensource firmware at different assist levels for comparison. Will be same phone and similar position, so reasonably comparable.
Thank you both. It's too bad it's so loud. It seems like the perfect motor for me other than that. I thought I read someone speculate once it might be because the gears are straight-cut instead of helical. I wonder if it'd be possible to find replacements to swap in?
I think you are about to get a completely wrong picture of this motor. I don't know if your motor is defectice or not (I am almost sure it is not) but in practice the motor will be hardly noticeable 90% of the time. There may be more discrete ones, but this one is definitely not "loud", hardly anyone would buy it if that was the case. You must not forget that a dedicated sound recording will not reflect reality at all.
As far as gear is concerned: who says it is straight?
Anmerkung 2018-11-29 120452.jpg

cj11363   100 µW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by cj11363 » Nov 29 2018 1:10pm

Ron Paul's Blimp wrote:
Nov 29 2018 3:36am

Thank you both. It's too bad it's so loud. It seems like the perfect motor for me other than that. I thought I read someone speculate once it might be because the gears are straight-cut instead of helical. I wonder if it'd be possible to find replacements to swap in?
I've purchased 3 of these motors ( and just ordered a 4th ), as well as one Bafang BBS02. The BBS02 is, to my 62 year old ears, nearly silent. All 3 TSDSZ2's are not. I wish that the Tongsheng motor was as quiet as the Bafang, but in all honesty, the modest noise that I hear might be an artificial issue. I often can't hear the TSDZ2 over wind noise, and the only time it's a bother to me is when I'm courting an illusion of stealth.

I've found that there is one use case where the TSDZ2 actually has less noise than our Bafang. When I set assist to level 0 the TSDZ2 is completely silent, whereas our BBS02 still has a bit of a hum ( as well as a perceived resistance ). This is with the "stock" firmware on the TSDZ2, and the Lunacycle installed settings on the BBS02.

Noise issues might be different with the open-source firmware, I don't know. My one attempt at running the open-source firmware for the TSDZ2 was unsuccessful and I reverted to the original firmware. I may have a handle on that fault and will probably give the open-source firmware another go on one of our bikes in the near future ( it's just a such a hassle to change the display and wiring, and only one of the 4 bikes that I've converted is really MY BIKE, or I'd have given it another go already... ).

It's possible that these motors are shipping with different versions of firmware, and that the firmware might alter the noise profile. The program memory on all 3 of the 48v motors that I purchased was identical, though the data memory on all 3 motors differed slightly. I've also noticed that the different displays ( VLCD-6, VLCD-5 and XH-18 ) can have a significant impact on the operating characteristics of the motor, though I can't say that, in my limited experience, the display type has had any noticeable impact on the noise profile.


/cj

casainho   100 MW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by casainho » Nov 29 2018 1:27pm

Status of the OpenSource firmware for Bafang 850C color LCD

The configuration menu is now fully implemented and I like a lot the result -- it is much more easy now to understand every configuration. The main screen need more work but it is easy to see that will be easier for user to understand the data that is shown because it will have a label, unlike on KT-LDC3 were that can't happen.

Developer of the Flexible OpenSource firmware for EBike motor controllers (TSDZ2 and KT) and LCDs (KT-LCD3 and Bafang 850C color LCD).

If you like my work, you can consider making a donation. I am being using the donations to buy needed resources for my developments. My paypal: casainho AT gmail.com.

sysrq   100 mW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by sysrq » Nov 29 2018 1:43pm

Ron Paul's Blimp wrote:
Nov 29 2018 3:36am
sysrq wrote:
Nov 28 2018 4:58pm
Have the same type of noise in walk assist mode as well. On top of that it seems like it has suddenly developed some sort of a gear meshing noise when spinning the cranks with the motor completely turned of. Probably due to riding in a 14t sprocket for two hours on the flat with 90 rpm cadence and forgetting to downshift before starting again. Shame can't remember what was it like when it was new, as always. The only thing I remember was occasional plastic like curling noise.
mctubster wrote:
Nov 28 2018 7:16pm
Noise a little less under lower assist levels - unfortunately the motor is generally a lot louder than a Bafang and I haven't yet tried to work out why...

Will be riding my TSDZ2 bike tomorrow so will make another recording with the opensource firmware at different assist levels for comparison. Will be same phone and similar position, so reasonably comparable.
Thank you both. It's too bad it's so loud. It seems like the perfect motor for me other than that. I thought I read someone speculate once it might be because the gears are straight-cut instead of helical. I wonder if it'd be possible to find replacements to swap in?
Secondary reduction gears are straight cut (spur). It has been said that normally they can't be replaced cause then sturdier housing and thrust bearings are required. These things can increase weight and price depending on market demand and production volume.

mctubster   100 mW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by mctubster » Nov 29 2018 9:42pm

Ron Paul's Blimp wrote:
Nov 29 2018 3:36am

Thank you both. It's too bad it's so loud. It seems like the perfect motor for me other than that. I thought I read someone speculate once it might be because the gears are straight-cut instead of helical. I wonder if it'd be possible to find replacements to swap in?
Here is another video, same phone. This time on low assist with the opensource firmware. It definitely gets noisier as the RPM go up. I'm kinda used to the noise now, with cars and wind noise I don't notice that often, but it is a little embarrassing when on a cycling path with the pieceful sounds of nature around you. I turn off assist then ;)

https://youtu.be/Ku9-FdUZFJ0

Ron Paul's Blimp   1 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Ron Paul's Blimp » Nov 30 2018 1:10am

mctubster wrote:
Nov 29 2018 9:42pm
Here is another video, same phone. This time on low assist with the opensource firmware. It definitely gets noisier as the RPM go up. I'm kinda used to the noise now, with cars and wind noise I don't notice that often, but it is a little embarrassing when on a cycling path with the pieceful sounds of nature around you. I turn off assist then ;)

https://youtu.be/Ku9-FdUZFJ0
Thank you again. Dang tho. My BBS02 is completely inaudible at power levels that low.

casainho   100 MW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by casainho » Nov 30 2018 2:16am

We have a new option for LCD to control TSDZ2!!

I finish the development of a working version of OpenSource firmware for Bafang 850C color LCD. This is the very first time I got it controlling the TSDZ2 motor. Both the LCD and the TSDZ2 are running our OpenSource firmwares!!

I have an special ride on Saturday, and I decide to take the risk and use this fresh firmware that may have bugs and be a problem while I will be on the mountains...

The firmware is on github. I wrote on wiki the wirings for this new LCD, they way to install the firmware and wire to TSDZ2 is very similar: https://github.com/OpenSource-EBike-fir ... 3-to-TSDZ2

Developer of the Flexible OpenSource firmware for EBike motor controllers (TSDZ2 and KT) and LCDs (KT-LCD3 and Bafang 850C color LCD).

If you like my work, you can consider making a donation. I am being using the donations to buy needed resources for my developments. My paypal: casainho AT gmail.com.

mctubster   100 mW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by mctubster » Nov 30 2018 3:33am

Ron Paul's Blimp wrote:
Nov 30 2018 1:10am
Thank you again. Dang tho. My BBS02 is completely inaudible at power levels that low.
My BBS01B is also effectively silent at lower power, but I couldn't go back.

I just took of the cover off the secondary reduction gear (I think that is what it is called, the small sprocket going to the large ring on the chain side). Not much grease in there. I packed it with some high tech ptfe grease. Has made a small reduction in noise (I will record again to make sure its not confirmation bias)

Do people pack more grease in motor side where the nylon gear is? I am also considering noise deadening foam (high density foam I use for computer cases) on the outside - some of my noise seems to be resonate.

Waynemarlow   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Waynemarlow » Nov 30 2018 12:50pm

My unit was a bit too noisy to begin with but within about 100 miles of use it has quietened down to about the same levels as my friends 2016 Haibike. Give it time and bit of mileage and the gears will bed in.

Certainly though the Bafung series are the quietest motors of all, even the Bosch and Brose motors are noisier.

Djoene   1 µW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Djoene » Nov 30 2018 1:16pm

Hello i’m new here.
On this site they seem to sell 250w 48/52v tsdz2’s , are they ligit? They are like the only ones that sell them.
I’m going to build a tsdz2 build on my cannondale trail 2 for crosscounty riding, but i want a big battery ,but they only sell the triangles in 52v versions.
Link:https://www.elecycles.com/tongsheng-tsd ... n-kit.html

mossboss   1 mW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by mossboss » Nov 30 2018 2:11pm

cj11363 wrote:
Nov 29 2018 1:10pm
I've also noticed that the different displays ( VLCD-6, VLCD-5 and XH-18 ) can have a significant impact on the operating characteristics of the motor, though I can't say that, in my limited experience, the display type has had any noticeable impact on the noise profile.
Would you be willing to elaborate on the performance characteristics of VLCD-5 vs. VLCD-6? I chose the latter because I was looking for a low key display, but am wondering what performance downsides it might exhibit.

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