New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

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casainho   100 MW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by casainho » Feb 12 2019 11:51am

dameri wrote:
Feb 12 2019 11:46am
Be careful when orderin batteries from china.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JzzfzGJpUS8
I order from Europe on NKON site, and here is the most capacity cell of LG INR18650-M36 3600mAh - 10A:

https://eu.nkon.nl/rechargeable/18650-s ... h-10a.html
Developer of the Flexible OpenSource firmware for EBike motor controllers (TSDZ2 and KT) and LCDs (KT-LCD3 and Bafang 850C color LCD).

If you like my work, please consider making a donation. I am being using the donations to buy needed resources for my developments. My paypal: casainho AT gmail.com.

tomtom50   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by tomtom50 » Feb 12 2019 3:17pm

raylo32 wrote:
Feb 10 2019 9:54pm
I made up a programming cable following the instructions on Eco Bike site, but I am having difficulty with the ST Link software. The main software tools installed easily but I can't get the drivers to work. My laptop is Win 10 x64. I copied all the windows files over from the link provided and ran USB Install in admin mode. But the ST V2 programmer just keeps flashing red when I plug in the USB. Anyone have any words of wisdom?
I can't remember the details, but I recall getting some errors (Win 7) that I ignored and it worked anyway.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by mctubster » Feb 12 2019 3:40pm

tomtom50 wrote:
Feb 08 2019 1:07pm

The open source firmware is great if you like a lot of information on your screen and a lot of options for configuration (I love stuff like that).

On the other hand, purely functionally, the stock firmware is quite good. Don't expect the open source firmware to give a radically better riding experience or to dramatically extend battery life.
I rode with a Bafang mid drive for a year. (100km per week)
I then rode with the stock firmware TSDZ2 for a month and then switched to the opensource firmware.

For me the primary advantages of the opensource firmware
- Higher cadence without overvolting or "overdrive" versions of the motor, eg running the 36V motor with 42V, 48V etc
- Cadence does not drop off much as the battery discharges due to optimised FOC algorithm, eg my 36V motor using a 36V nominal battery at 32V (ie 90% discharged) still gives me 70-80rpm at 80% of max power output (400W).
- Temperature monitoring and cutout for overtemp. If you like running on high assist you really need this or very easy to overheat and damage your motor windings or permanent magnets.
- Controller restricts power output to motor as your battery hits the minimum voltage, giving you some limp home power
- Boost function, giving extra power when starting from stop, but then backing off. Great for heavy bikes accelerating from a standstill but then requiring less assistance once moving. Means you don't have to muck around with assist levels or throttles.
- Much better battery state of charge monitoring, not a simple estimate based on battery voltage that does not take into account battery load and internal resistance
- Many other reasons, these just come to mind

Cheers

tomtom50   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by tomtom50 » Feb 12 2019 4:11pm

Strider wrote:
Feb 11 2019 6:22am
With the normal software the TSDZ2 stops assisting at a cadence of about 90 Pedal RPM's.

From what I've learned in this topic is that with the open source software the TSDZ2 will support above 90 RPM.
Is that correct?
Partially correct. The newest v18 has an option but i don't think it is fully tested or the theory worked out. My understanding of BLDC theory is that no-load rpm rises with voltage, and the reason the voltage has a corresponding rpm is that the motor generates reverse emf. As rpm rises the motor can draw less and less current and develops less torque. At no-load rpm the motor generates only enough current to overcome friction. The good way to get past this is "field weakening" but it is unclear whether that works well short of full field-oriented control (FOC). Due to processing limitations some shortcuts had to be taken with the open source firmware, and the FOC is not 100% implemented. I cannot tell if the approach taken in v18 is efficient. If it isn't efficient there is a possibility of overheating the motor.

If you have high pedal cadence and you haven't bought your system you have a proven option: Buy a 36V system and flash to 48V/52V firmware, and use a 48V/52V battery. Then you get no-load rpm 4/3 higher, and no need for field weakening or other workarounds that don't have a clear theoretical grounding or careful efficiency testing. Eco-ebikes will sell you a system already set up this way, they call it overdrive, or you can do it yourself. You can search overdrive in the thread. This approach works with stock firmware and open source firmware.
Strider wrote:
Feb 11 2019 6:22am
Further, from what i've understood is that a 52v battery is better for the TSDZ2 than a lower voltage battery + it also would help with supporting a higher cadence.
For a given power at the motor (W) higher battery voltage draws less current. That means less resistive losses in the windings. So a 48V motor will produce less heat at high wattage (over 500W). So if you are starting from scratch a 48V or 52V battery is probably a good choice.
Strider wrote:
Feb 11 2019 6:22am
Therefore i'm planning to buy the Hailong 52v 17.5A battery with Samsung 18650 3.7V 3500mAh Cells. That that is 910wh (52Vx17.5A).

Will that work, is this a good decision? Or is it better to stick stick with a 48v battery.
I bought a very similar battery, 14S4P 700Wh Hailong, this is 14S 5P. Unit Pack Power has a good reputation. But I later wished I had bought a different battery:

It turned out (for me anyway) that my riding style did not draw too much power. I am content going a bit faster on the flat (18mph vs 14mph, for example, and I mostly use the motor climbing hills. It turns out that 50 miles used less than half the battery. So in retrospect I wihs I had bought a light 13S2P pack, similar to https://www.biktrix.ca/products/wee-wee-battery-pack. Even at 750W the TSDZ2 draws 48V 15A, a 2P pack of GA cells can handle that for sort periods (if you want to draw 15A for long periods you do need a huge battery. You probably will need a new TSDZ2 before long). I have found I am totally happy with peak 500W anyway. I'm not saying a small battery is right for everyone, just that I bought a big battery and was surprised that I did not need it. Money aside big batteries are heavy.

I bought 52V. 52V is great if you think you will only power TSDZ2. But if you think you might build another ebike with a different type of motor 36V and 48V are more standard and compatible with more controllers. In retrospect I wish I had gone for 48V. I'm building a geared hub motor ebike, and the 52V battery is a problem.

Finally, if there is any chance you might want to build a another ebike you might want to buy a second battery base at time of purchase. I went back to UPP and bought another base months later. They quoted $15, but shipping was $30.
Strider wrote:
Feb 11 2019 6:22am
I assume it won't work out of the box, and to get this working I first need to flash the engine.
Image
Word of warning. Editing values like your screenshot doesn't work on all stock firmware. It didn't on mine, I had to replace the firmware. That worked. (My supposedly 52V system really had 48V firmware. I flashed 52V firmware.) Eco-ebikes has the stock firmware if editing values does not work.

tomtom50   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by tomtom50 » Feb 12 2019 4:20pm

Strider wrote:
Feb 11 2019 12:30pm
1) What is the difference between 52v and 52v O/D (overdrive)? According to the below table the cadans is much higher on the 52v O/D version. Is 52v O/D a battery with a higher voltage? On the google drive i also only see files for 52v, i don't see .hex files for 52v O/D.

Image

2) Does using the software from eco-bikes mean that you can't use the software from casainho?
I mean, you either use the software from Casainho or the one from Eco-bikes? That would mean that in the firmware from Casainho you also should be able to adjust the voltage. No idea where that is possible.

3) To get the 52v battery working properly on the TSDZ2 motor, only flashing the firmware on the motor itself is enough, also on the display unit is not needed?
1. Overdrive uses a 36V motor with a 48V or 52V battery and firmware that matches the battery voltage. This is sound practice, rpm/V is a function of the motor winding, using a lower voltage motor winding at higher voltage gives higher cadence. I think it is great that eco-ebikes will set it up this way for customers.
2. You can buy an overdrive system from eco-ebikes and go to open source. Open source over-writes it all.
3. If you buy a 52V system you don't have to flash anything. If you have a 36V or 48V system you can flash to 52V. A stock firmware re-flash is motor only. Flashing the display is needed for open-source with KT-LCD3.

tomtom50   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by tomtom50 » Feb 12 2019 4:24pm

raylo32 wrote:
Feb 11 2019 7:43am
The vendors are selling "overdrive" versions that assist up to 100 or 110 RPM. I am not sure if those are different hardware or if that is also settable in the firmware. There is no upcharge for these models so I assume it is just firmware and that those settings are in there somewhere.
Nope. Overdrive is achieved by using a 36V motor with 48/52V battery and firmware. The motor winding is different. I think the lack of an up-charge is great, eco-ebikes is offering a nice option. But overdrive hardware means a 36V motor in a 48V/52V system. 36V and 48V motor windings are physically different.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by raylo32 » Feb 12 2019 4:27pm

You missed my last post. I got the correct driver directly from the ST Micro site and that fixed me right up. Solid red light on the programmer when USB plugged in, green when communicating with the TSDZU. Programming took a few seconds.
tomtom50 wrote:
Feb 12 2019 3:17pm
raylo32 wrote:
Feb 10 2019 9:54pm
I made up a programming cable following the instructions on Eco Bike site, but I am having difficulty with the ST Link software. The main software tools installed easily but I can't get the drivers to work. My laptop is Win 10 x64. I copied all the windows files over from the link provided and ran USB Install in admin mode. But the ST V2 programmer just keeps flashing red when I plug in the USB. Anyone have any words of wisdom?
I can't remember the details, but I recall getting some errors (Win 7) that I ignored and it worked anyway.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by tomtom50 » Feb 12 2019 4:29pm

raylo32 wrote:
Feb 11 2019 1:27pm
Strider you can use any firmware you want. I went with what the vendor recommended to get this thing up and running and it seems to work just fine. You could always change over to the open source stuff later. I haven't looked into it yet but I assume it provides more tunability and I will probably get into that later after seeing how she runs stock. As for the "overdrive" near as I can tell is that alls it does is provide assist to a higher RPM. The 52V standard is 100 RPM, not 90 and that is fast enough. You might want higher if you are running a smaller chainring but you still have the 28 mph speed limit. I hit that spinning pretty good in 7th (out of eight) gear with my 48T ring and in 8th gear it is a more comfortable cadence, so I really don't need the overdrive. YMMV.
Cadence is not about mph. It is how you ride. Some riders have a high cadence, they use lower gears to go the same speed, the have higher cadence climbing a hill.

Racers train to a higher cadence, it is considered more efficient in competitive riding.

Ride for a while and count pedal cranks in a minute. If you are higher than 80 rpm using 48V/52V battery and firmware on a 36V motor might be worth it.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by tomtom50 » Feb 12 2019 4:42pm

mctubster wrote:
Feb 12 2019 3:40pm
tomtom50 wrote:
Feb 08 2019 1:07pm

The open source firmware is great if you like a lot of information on your screen and a lot of options for configuration (I love stuff like that).

On the other hand, purely functionally, the stock firmware is quite good. Don't expect the open source firmware to give a radically better riding experience or to dramatically extend battery life.
I rode with a Bafang mid drive for a year. (100km per week)
I then rode with the stock firmware TSDZ2 for a month and then switched to the opensource firmware.

For me the primary advantages of the opensource firmware
- Higher cadence without overvolting or "overdrive" versions of the motor, eg running the 36V motor with 42V, 48V etc
- Cadence does not drop off much as the battery discharges due to optimised FOC algorithm, eg my 36V motor using a 36V nominal battery at 32V (ie 90% discharged) still gives me 70-80rpm at 80% of max power output (400W).
- Temperature monitoring and cutout for overtemp. If you like running on high assist you really need this or very easy to overheat and damage your motor windings or permanent magnets.
- Controller restricts power output to motor as your battery hits the minimum voltage, giving you some limp home power
- Boost function, giving extra power when starting from stop, but then backing off. Great for heavy bikes accelerating from a standstill but then requiring less assistance once moving. Means you don't have to muck around with assist levels or throttles.
- Much better battery state of charge monitoring, not a simple estimate based on battery voltage that does not take into account battery load and internal resistance
- Many other reasons, these just come to mind

Cheers
Hi, thanks. I don't want to give the impression the open source firmware isn't great. It is and I'm glad I installed it. I also don't wat people to have the impression the TSDZ2 has lame stock firmware and is only decent with open source firmware. The stock firmware is smooth and reliable and a stock TSDZ2 is a good ebike. An open source equipped TSDZ2 is even better, with tons of configuration options.

Upgrading to the open source firmware is a pretty big project for someone not technically inclined, and it includes risk of bricking the system. I'm trying to give a balanced view so people can make an informed decision.

I use my TSDZ2 for my commute, which includes a long and nasty hill. Both firmware versions got me through that commute just fine.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by tomtom50 » Feb 12 2019 4:43pm

Accidentally posted twice

raylo32   10 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by raylo32 » Feb 12 2019 7:36pm

In a given gear combo cadence is indeed indicative of MPH. You need to know your tire diameter and your gears to figure gear inches or use gear ratios to calculate this out. Pick your gear inches for the speed and cadence you want ride. Easy peasy. The built in 28 mph speed limit sets the parameters for figuring out what you need, i.e what cadence you hit that speed in your chosen gear. I have done a lot of riding and racing and higher cadences work for fast pacelines and such. But for the kind of riding I plan to do on an on an e-bike I don't want to be spinning 100 RPM.
tomtom50 wrote:
Feb 12 2019 4:29pm
raylo32 wrote:
Feb 11 2019 1:27pm
Strider you can use any firmware you want. I went with what the vendor recommended to get this thing up and running and it seems to work just fine. You could always change over to the open source stuff later. I haven't looked into it yet but I assume it provides more tunability and I will probably get into that later after seeing how she runs stock. As for the "overdrive" near as I can tell is that alls it does is provide assist to a higher RPM. The 52V standard is 100 RPM, not 90 and that is fast enough. You might want higher if you are running a smaller chainring but you still have the 28 mph speed limit. I hit that spinning pretty good in 7th (out of eight) gear with my 48T ring and in 8th gear it is a more comfortable cadence, so I really don't need the overdrive. YMMV.
Cadence is not about mph. It is how you ride. Some riders have a high cadence, they use lower gears to go the same speed, the have higher cadence climbing a hill.

Racers train to a higher cadence, it is considered more efficient in competitive riding.

Ride for a while and count pedal cranks in a minute. If you are higher than 80 rpm using 48V/52V battery and firmware on a 36V motor might be worth it.

tomtom50   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by tomtom50 » Feb 12 2019 8:34pm

raylo32 wrote:
Feb 12 2019 7:36pm
In a given gear combo cadence is indeed indicative of MPH. You need to know your tire diameter and your gears to figure gear inches or use gear ratios to calculate this out. Pick your gear inches for the speed and cadence you want ride. Easy peasy. The built in 28 mph speed limit sets the parameters for figuring out what you need, i.e what cadence you hit that speed in your chosen gear. I have done a lot of riding and racing and higher cadences work for fast pacelines and such. But for the kind of riding I plan to do on an on an e-bike I don't want to be spinning 100 RPM.
tomtom50 wrote:
Feb 12 2019 4:29pm
raylo32 wrote:
Feb 11 2019 1:27pm
Strider you can use any firmware you want. I went with what the vendor recommended to get this thing up and running and it seems to work just fine. You could always change over to the open source stuff later. I haven't looked into it yet but I assume it provides more tunability and I will probably get into that later after seeing how she runs stock. As for the "overdrive" near as I can tell is that alls it does is provide assist to a higher RPM. The 52V standard is 100 RPM, not 90 and that is fast enough. You might want higher if you are running a smaller chainring but you still have the 28 mph speed limit. I hit that spinning pretty good in 7th (out of eight) gear with my 48T ring and in 8th gear it is a more comfortable cadence, so I really don't need the overdrive. YMMV.
Cadence is not about mph. It is how you ride. Some riders have a high cadence, they use lower gears to go the same speed, the have higher cadence climbing a hill.

Racers train to a higher cadence, it is considered more efficient in competitive riding.

Ride for a while and count pedal cranks in a minute. If you are higher than 80 rpm using 48V/52V battery and firmware on a 36V motor might be worth it.
I don't think we disagree. when riding a bike the rider adjusts gears to match speed and a comfortable cadence. The issue with TDSZ2 is that riders who have a high preferred cadence can run out of assist.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by toñocid » Feb 13 2019 5:08am

I fully agree with christian. the problem of the torque sensor is the groove for the ring that fixes the bearing,this groove makes torque very weak.tongsheng engeneers must improve it.us torque becomes unusefull after braking the cheapest solution can be solding the ring directly with no groove.

raylo32   10 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by raylo32 » Feb 13 2019 9:43am

Exactly. But I don't know any riders other than racers going full on on a breakaway that want to spin at 100 to 120 RPM. So for e-bikers needing to go that high is due to their choice of gearing (but why?) ... or the constraints of the bike... for chainring size and rear gearing cluster... and having only a single chainring. One other dilemma is having an easy enough gear to pedal yourself up hills to get home if your motor or battery dies with a porky e-bike that is 15 or 20 pounds heavier than it used to be. But if you gear with that in mind that you might get spun out of assist before you get to the 28 mph limit. But I can't imagine that spinning at 100 to 120 RPM would be fun even with assist. That would still be a workout in itself.
tomtom50 wrote:
Feb 12 2019 8:34pm
I don't think we disagree. when riding a bike the rider adjusts gears to match speed and a comfortable cadence. The issue with TDSZ2 is that riders who have a high preferred cadence can run out of assist.
[/quote]
[/quote]

raylo32   10 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by raylo32 » Feb 13 2019 9:44am

How hard is it to replace this part, and how much does it cost? It looks like we might need to maybe anticipate this and keep a spare on hand.
toñocid wrote:
Feb 13 2019 5:08am
I fully agree with christian. the problem of the torque sensor is the groove for the ring that fixes the bearing,this groove makes torque very weak.tongsheng engeneers must improve it.us torque becomes unusefull after braking the cheapest solution can be solding the ring directly with no groove.

casainho   100 MW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by casainho » Feb 13 2019 9:49am

raylo32 wrote:
Feb 13 2019 9:43am
Exactly. But I don't know any riders other than racers going full on on a breakaway that want to spin at 100 to 120 RPM. So for e-bikers needing to go that high is due to their choice of gearing (but why?) ... or the constraints of the bike... for chainring size and rear gearing cluster... and having only a single chainring. One other dilemma is having an easy enough gear to pedal yourself up hills to get home if your motor or battery dies with a porky e-bike that is 15 or 20 pounds heavier than it used to be. But if you gear with that in mind that you might get spun out of assist before you get to the 28 mph limit. But I can't imagine that spinning at 100 to 120 RPM would be fun even with assist. That would still be a workout in itself.
tomtom50 wrote:
Feb 12 2019 8:34pm
I don't think we disagree. when riding a bike the rider adjusts gears to match speed and a comfortable cadence. The issue with TDSZ2 is that riders who have a high preferred cadence can run out of assist.
[/quote]
[/quote]
It is possible to improve the firmware to really support high cadence, but would need developers with good focus on that and would need:
1. Increase PWM frequency over the 16khz (needs validation and optimization on PWM interrupt code/processing time)
2. Usage of 52V batteries for 48V motor or usage of 36V motor
Developer of the Flexible OpenSource firmware for EBike motor controllers (TSDZ2 and KT) and LCDs (KT-LCD3 and Bafang 850C color LCD).

If you like my work, please consider making a donation. I am being using the donations to buy needed resources for my developments. My paypal: casainho AT gmail.com.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Peetsyo » Feb 13 2019 4:14pm

Question about 14S2P battery

INR18650-35E 3500mAh cell , Discharge current 8A , Max discharge current 13 A (test link: https://lygte-info.dk/review/batteries2 ... %20UK.html)

Image


Current draw 14A for 30minutes(0,5hours) so 14 x 0,5 = 7Ah 14S2P battery will have cell temp around 50degreesC ,
Can the motor handle constant 14A for 30 minutes ?

So when not riding like a madman , 14S2P should be more than enough , without overheating the battery.
Because you pedal along, the range for this capacity would probably be about 20-25km ? which is sufficient if you charge it daily @ office ?

How long can TSDZ2 handle ie. 15A before becoming too hot ?

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by elknerps » Feb 13 2019 7:03pm

I was thinking about a idea I had to make any stock display compatible with the open source code for the TSDZ2. I was thinking of putting a Arduino Nano in the middle of the display and motor. It would intercept the serial communication and modify the motor packages and change them and then send the results to the display and the same in the other direction. Then in the Nano code have as many settings you have for pedal assist and just have that be a number of custom settings that would be hard coded in the Nano. You could even have a custom setting were it would send the temp and wattage to the display instead of the batt and speed. It seems like it would be a very easy project, anyone heard of someone doing that yet and if not any issues you might think of?

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by tomtom50 » Feb 14 2019 12:01am

Peetsyo wrote:
Feb 13 2019 4:14pm
Question about 14S2P battery

Current draw 14A for 30minutes(0,5hours) so 14 x 0,5 = 7Ah 14S2P battery will have cell temp around 50degreesC ,
Can the motor handle constant 14A for 30 minutes ?

So when not riding like a madman , 14S2P should be more than enough , without overheating the battery.
Because you pedal along, the range for this capacity would probably be about 20-25km ? which is sufficient if you charge it daily @ office ?

How long can TSDZ2 handle ie. 15A before becoming too hot ?
To throw some perspective on your question, here is a screen shot from bikecalculator indicating how fast you would go on the flat at 14A (44kph), 7A (33kph), and 3.5A (24kph). I estimate efficiency of the controller, motor, and gear transmission at 80%. So 52*14=728W, 728W*0.8=582W at the pedals. I don't know if the motor could stand 30 minutes at 14A (both the motor and the plastic gear could fail due to accumulated heat), but an hour 7A would be safer all around, TSDZ2 & battery both, and speed only drops 25%, all because air friction rises to the square of velocity.
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zappan   10 mW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by zappan » Feb 14 2019 3:24am

elknerps wrote:
Feb 13 2019 7:03pm
I was thinking about a idea I had to make any stock display compatible with the open source code for the TSDZ2. I was thinking of putting a Arduino Nano in the middle of the display and motor. It would intercept the serial communication and modify the motor packages and change them and then send the results to the display and the same in the other direction. Then in the Nano code have as many settings you have for pedal assist and just have that be a number of custom settings that would be hard coded in the Nano. You could even have a custom setting were it would send the temp and wattage to the display instead of the batt and speed. It seems like it would be a very easy project, anyone heard of someone doing that yet and if not any issues you might think of?
Casainho opensuce software works perfectly with standard displays, I give you the link of the work done by Marcoq :D "TSDZ2-Smart-EBike-compatible-with-original-VLCD6-display"
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 30&t=98281

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by kalleg » Feb 14 2019 3:45am

tomtom50 wrote:
Feb 12 2019 4:29pm
raylo32 wrote:
Feb 11 2019 1:27pm
Strider you can use any firmware you want. I went with what the vendor recommended to get this thing up and running and it seems to work just fine. You could always change over to the open source stuff later. I haven't looked into it yet but I assume it provides more tunability and I will probably get into that later after seeing how she runs stock. As for the "overdrive" near as I can tell is that alls it does is provide assist to a higher RPM. The 52V standard is 100 RPM, not 90 and that is fast enough. You might want higher if you are running a smaller chainring but you still have the 28 mph speed limit. I hit that spinning pretty good in 7th (out of eight) gear with my 48T ring and in 8th gear it is a more comfortable cadence, so I really don't need the overdrive. YMMV.
Cadence is not about mph. It is how you ride. Some riders have a high cadence, they use lower gears to go the same speed, the have higher cadence climbing a hill.

Racers train to a higher cadence, it is considered more efficient in competitive riding.

Ride for a while and count pedal cranks in a minute. If you are higher than 80 rpm using 48V/52V battery and firmware on a 36V motor might be worth it.
Hi tomtom (& all)

I've read your tutorial, and followed this thread for a while. I'm about to start a 2-wheel cargo build (Bullit-style Longjohn but in steel), and have a few questions. I understand theres quite a few variables concerning which motor to buy, and I have a hard time getting my head around it. I already have a BBS02 48V 750W system on a different cargo bike, so I would like to stay with 48V for compatibility. I'm gunning for an IGH 3 or 7 gears on a 26" rear wheel. I will transport my two kids and myself which adds up to about 120-130 kg atm. The commute is mostly flat with a long slight incline at each end (I would love a nice combination of torque and speed). I'm looking to buy from PSWPowers german stock, as I live in Copenhagen. I'm planning to run the Open Source firmware with the KT-LCD3.

http://www.pswpower.com/ven.php?cargo-s210025

In your opinion, should i go for overvolting the 36V to 48V, or should I go with a 48V version from the get-go? I also had the understanding that an electric motor runs cooler at higher cadence in regards to overloading. Is this true?

ATM I have my eyes on this one (8-pin version!?):
http://www.pswpower.com/ven.php?cargo.2018-4c-h1fm

Also do you have any advice as to how I should set the gearing (front and rear sprocket size/teeth)? Again there's a lot of variables. The Nexus IGH3 seems like a simple and cheap solution:

https://electricbike-blog.com/2015/11/2 ... h-a-bbs02/

Let me know if you have any advice. Thanks all for your great work and information.

raylo32   10 W

10 W
Posts: 85
Joined: Jan 04 2019 3:09pm

Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by raylo32 » Feb 14 2019 8:40am

This is great info and confirms my thoughts. The TSDZ2 is a nice unit but doesn't give the impression that it is heavy duty and built for long term max power usage. It is an e-bike, not an e-motorcycle. I wish the display would show amps in real time. That would make it easier for a rider to keep it operating in the "green" zone and not risk overheating and damage to the plastic gear or other components. I am going to have to restrain myself, especially on the 2 mile climb back up to my neighborhood that ends every ride. Gear down and not push for 20 mph.

tomtom50 wrote:
Feb 14 2019 12:01am
Peetsyo wrote:
Feb 13 2019 4:14pm
Question about 14S2P battery

Current draw 14A for 30minutes(0,5hours) so 14 x 0,5 = 7Ah 14S2P battery will have cell temp around 50degreesC ,
Can the motor handle constant 14A for 30 minutes ?

So when not riding like a madman , 14S2P should be more than enough , without overheating the battery.
Because you pedal along, the range for this capacity would probably be about 20-25km ? which is sufficient if you charge it daily @ office ?

How long can TSDZ2 handle ie. 15A before becoming too hot ?
To throw some perspective on your question, here is a screen shot from bikecalculator indicating how fast you would go on the flat at 14A (44kph), 7A (33kph), and 3.5A (24kph). I estimate efficiency of the controller, motor, and gear transmission at 80%. So 52*14=728W, 728W*0.8=582W at the pedals. I don't know if the motor could stand 30 minutes at 14A (both the motor and the plastic gear could fail due to accumulated heat), but an hour 7A would be safer all around, TSDZ2 & battery both, and speed only drops 25%, all because air friction rises to the square of velocity.
582W.png291W.png146W.png

casainho   100 MW

100 MW
Posts: 2870
Joined: Feb 14 2011 2:43pm

Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by casainho » Feb 14 2019 9:06am

Use the OpenSource firmware where you can see the amps, configure the current ramp step, configure the motor max temperature power reducing and limit, etc.
raylo32 wrote:
Feb 14 2019 8:40am
This is great info and confirms my thoughts. The TSDZ2 is a nice unit but doesn't give the impression that it is heavy duty and built for long term max power usage. It is an e-bike, not an e-motorcycle. I wish the display would show amps in real time. That would make it easier for a rider to keep it operating in the "green" zone and not risk overheating and damage to the plastic gear or other components. I am going to have to restrain myself, especially on the 2 mile climb back up to my neighborhood that ends every ride. Gear down and not push for 20 mph.

tomtom50 wrote:
Feb 14 2019 12:01am
Peetsyo wrote:
Feb 13 2019 4:14pm
Question about 14S2P battery

Current draw 14A for 30minutes(0,5hours) so 14 x 0,5 = 7Ah 14S2P battery will have cell temp around 50degreesC ,
Can the motor handle constant 14A for 30 minutes ?

So when not riding like a madman , 14S2P should be more than enough , without overheating the battery.
Because you pedal along, the range for this capacity would probably be about 20-25km ? which is sufficient if you charge it daily @ office ?

How long can TSDZ2 handle ie. 15A before becoming too hot ?
To throw some perspective on your question, here is a screen shot from bikecalculator indicating how fast you would go on the flat at 14A (44kph), 7A (33kph), and 3.5A (24kph). I estimate efficiency of the controller, motor, and gear transmission at 80%. So 52*14=728W, 728W*0.8=582W at the pedals. I don't know if the motor could stand 30 minutes at 14A (both the motor and the plastic gear could fail due to accumulated heat), but an hour 7A would be safer all around, TSDZ2 & battery both, and speed only drops 25%, all because air friction rises to the square of velocity.
582W.png291W.png146W.png
Developer of the Flexible OpenSource firmware for EBike motor controllers (TSDZ2 and KT) and LCDs (KT-LCD3 and Bafang 850C color LCD).

If you like my work, please consider making a donation. I am being using the donations to buy needed resources for my developments. My paypal: casainho AT gmail.com.

raylo32   10 W

10 W
Posts: 85
Joined: Jan 04 2019 3:09pm

Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by raylo32 » Feb 14 2019 9:43am

I haven't had time yet to dig into your firmware but I figured you would have that in there. Nice work.
casainho wrote:
Feb 14 2019 9:06am
Use the OpenSource firmware where you can see the amps, configure the current ramp step, configure the motor max temperature power reducing and limit, etc.
raylo32 wrote:
Feb 14 2019 8:40am
This is great info and confirms my thoughts. The TSDZ2 is a nice unit but doesn't give the impression that it is heavy duty and built for long term max power usage. It is an e-bike, not an e-motorcycle. I wish the display would show amps in real time. That would make it easier for a rider to keep it operating in the "green" zone and not risk overheating and damage to the plastic gear or other components. I am going to have to restrain myself, especially on the 2 mile climb back up to my neighborhood that ends every ride. Gear down and not push for 20 mph.

tomtom50 wrote:
Feb 14 2019 12:01am
Peetsyo wrote:
Feb 13 2019 4:14pm
Question about 14S2P battery

Current draw 14A for 30minutes(0,5hours) so 14 x 0,5 = 7Ah 14S2P battery will have cell temp around 50degreesC ,
Can the motor handle constant 14A for 30 minutes ?

So when not riding like a madman , 14S2P should be more than enough , without overheating the battery.
Because you pedal along, the range for this capacity would probably be about 20-25km ? which is sufficient if you charge it daily @ office ?

How long can TSDZ2 handle ie. 15A before becoming too hot ?
To throw some perspective on your question, here is a screen shot from bikecalculator indicating how fast you would go on the flat at 14A (44kph), 7A (33kph), and 3.5A (24kph). I estimate efficiency of the controller, motor, and gear transmission at 80%. So 52*14=728W, 728W*0.8=582W at the pedals. I don't know if the motor could stand 30 minutes at 14A (both the motor and the plastic gear could fail due to accumulated heat), but an hour 7A would be safer all around, TSDZ2 & battery both, and speed only drops 25%, all because air friction rises to the square of velocity.
582W.png291W.png146W.png

Retrorockit   10 mW

10 mW
Posts: 22
Joined: Feb 08 2019 12:07pm

Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Retrorockit » Feb 14 2019 10:17pm

I got my TSDZ2 48V 750W today. Read the whole thread while waiting for it.
When I ordered it I though tis was a Bafang with torque sensing (TS) added. Figured out that TS stands for Tong Sheng and it's not going to be like my 1500W 30A continuos BBSHD. But I'm retired and always up for a challenge. I played around with spacing the TS 42T gear in and didn't get very far. Also saw that the Lekkie wasn't going to be a whole lot better.
Tried to put it on the bike for a fit up ,but the original BB won't come out. I'll take it to my LBS because my trade was truck mechanic and I can be a little heavy handed for bicycle work sometimes. I pulled the drive side covers off and had a look. Helical gears with plenty of lube on that side. The brake and shifter cables run through the frame, and come out in front of the BB and then cross over each other for some reason. I may let the LBS guy sort that out for me too.
I'm going to see if I can make some room to move a 44t chainring in a bit further. I want to stick it on the bike and do some measuring before I start "moving things around".
I may try this out on an XC Softail I have sitting around. I've played the derailer chainline game with my BBSHD bike and have lots of extra casettes to play with.
What I have is the 750W 48V with no brakes, and no throttle. Which is what I wanted. But now I want the upgrade diplay and firmware also. Mine has the 6 pin plug. I guess the heat sensor also since I'm in South Florida. How do I get there from here?
After reading the whole thread there are a couple things I didn't see mentioned.
One is the longer cranks available from Shimano in the E600 series 175mm which is what I'm running on my BBSHD. It not only produces more torque it also favors a slower cadence. There is a pedaling style that goes with long cranks. Racers scoff at it because it inefficient due to having to raise and lower the whole leg a greater distance but for false flats or short rises it's a lot of fun to maintain your cadence when everyone else is dropping a gear and spinning like mad. It involves dropping the heel on the upstroke so you can start the power stroke sooner. The longer cranks give you room to do this. Then extend the ankle across the bottom of the stroke and keep the power going around the bottom. The longer cranks cost you power very stroke due to raisng the leg higher on the upstroke. This involves the calf muscles more but very few people do this naturally or continuosly. I learned about the inefficiency when I tried a set of 180mm cranks.
My take on the need for a delay with no brake switches is it seems to me with no cadence or speed sensor shutoff the motor is pulling againt the brakes the whole timeyou're stopped. This can't be good for the motor or the battery. I also wonder if an extra magnet or 2 would help with the walk assist sensitivity?
Here's a link to my BBSHD project if anybody wants to look at my setup. Nothing TSDZ2 there of course. There's a summary near the end if the whole thing doesn't interest you.
https://electricbike.com/forum/forum/ma ... hd-project

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