New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Discussions related to motors other than hub motors.
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Retrorockit   10 mW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Retrorockit » Feb 18 2019 9:19pm

As an American user I enjoy the challenge of getting the brakes, tires and suspension setup to handle a 1500W motor. But most of the time I ride at PAS 1 or 2 out of 5. The throttle is there if I need it. US motorists aren't used to sharing the road with cyclists. It's very useful to have a bike here that's fast enough to blend in with American automotive traffic ( or get out of the way!). That's why our E bikes resemble our cars to a great extent. I like to get my exercise also. My thinking on a BBSHD versus something else would be if my livelihood depended on the cargo bike I would want the dependability. Tools vs. toys. The extra power wouldn't be a consideration. If I want to take a bicyle ride I get on my XC softtail bike with slicks and take one.
Anyway I'm starting on my TSDZ2 IGH bike. These are fairly unknown in the US.
Here's my thread at Electricbike.com which is moderated by Luna Cycles so it's heavy on what they offer.
https://electricbike.com/forum/forum/ma ... z2-project

tomtom50   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by tomtom50 » Feb 19 2019 12:17am

raylo32 wrote:
Feb 18 2019 8:12am
I've been looking at the open source firmware, read a lot of the install instructions and seen some good videos. Pretty impressive stuff and I really like all the data that is available... volts, amps, power, etc., as well as all the settings.

The flashing and all is pretty straightforward, not unlike flashing the stock firmware. But a couple of questions:

1. Is the LCD3 compatible and plug and play with the TSDZ2 throttle and their standard mechanical brake e-bike brake levers?

2. If so, do the existing TSDZ2 throttle and brake connectors fit or do they need to be modified?
The TSDZ2 brakes and throttle plug into the VLCD5 display. The KT-LCD3 does not have these sockets.

If you want brakes and throttle you have two choices:

1. Wire it yourself by hand, including breaking out four cables from the motor cable, (two brake + display + throttle). Clean waterproof hand-made multi-cable breakouts are not easy.
2. Splice a motor cable to a molded ’1 in 4’cable that breaks out into four molded connectors.

I have recently posted a tutorial that gives instructions for 2. It has links to buy the ‘1 in 4’ cable and plug-compatible throttle and brake levers. That connects everything with only one cable splice (TSDZ2 motor connector is different than the motor connector on the ‘1 in 4’ cable).

.

tomtom50   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by tomtom50 » Feb 19 2019 12:25am

knutselmaaster wrote:
Feb 18 2019 8:04am
My experience is that the Nexus 8 is more resistant than the Nexus 7.

Bosch motors used on IG bikes have a different version of firmware that lowers the max torque with at least 20%.
Their technicians explained me that they do that because there were too much problems with IG durability.
This has been confirmed to me by several experienced bike mechanics.
BUT: the problems are caused by the users!
Shifting gear while the motor pulls full power is the cause of these problems, the IG hubs don't break because of the motor power by itself.
Interesting!
I wonder if the manufacturers considered getting Shimano to add a shifter switch that acts when a shift is initiated. That could kill assist so a shift under full motor load is not possible.

tomtom50   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by tomtom50 » Feb 19 2019 12:32am

hefest wrote:
Feb 18 2019 12:27pm
After a lot of research I finally ordered tsdz2 48V 750W with brakes and throttle.
Now I need to get the battery for it.

One option is
48V 10.4AH Li-ion Dolphin E-Bike Battery with Charger Made of LG LGEBM261865
http://www.pswpower.com/ven.php?cargo.2017-5f-31t0

Another is 48V 11.6Ah with Samsung 25r cells. This one looks like an overkill for a tsdz2 which draws maximum of 18A.

Any suggestions?
TSDZ2 max amp draw at 48V is 15A (18 is pretty dangerous for the gear) GA cells are rated 10A so even a super light (under 3 pound) GA 13S2P pack can supply the needed amps. GA or similar 3500mAh cells have more capacity, they seem the best match for TSDZ2.

tomtom50   100 W

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Re: Open Source / Stock Firmware Tutorial

Post by tomtom50 » Feb 19 2019 12:36am

hefest wrote:
Feb 18 2019 10:48am
This is great stuff you did there.
This should be part of the Wiki pages of OpenSource firmware.
I'm positively sure a lot of users are put off by the amount of digging through the forums required to pull this of correctly the first time. :bigthumb:
Thanks! Looking to add to the wiki, just don’t know the ropes or have time for a bit.

tomtom50   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by tomtom50 » Feb 19 2019 12:40am

casainho wrote:
Feb 18 2019 3:30pm
Thanks for sharing, this is the first time I see pictures of such a thing and description.

I also use the 34T at front and 50T rear -- I have 9 speed and I found on ebay 9 speed with max plate of 50T and works as expected.

And at the city, with the same bicycle, I use a large plate at front like 52T (2 gears at front) and I drive at 40/45km.
You guys have good balance. I have tried such low gears And going so slow I weave around.

raylo32   10 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by raylo32 » Feb 19 2019 7:54am

Thanks, Tom. Where can we find the tutorial?
tomtom50 wrote:
Feb 19 2019 12:17am
raylo32 wrote:
Feb 18 2019 8:12am


I have recently posted a tutorial that gives instructions for 2. It has links to buy the ‘1 in 4’ cable and plug-compatible throttle and brake levers. That connects everything with only one cable splice (TSDZ2 motor connector is different than the motor connector on the ‘1 in 4’ cable).

.

Retrorockit   10 mW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Retrorockit » Feb 19 2019 9:12am

tomtom50 wrote:
Feb 19 2019 12:25am
knutselmaaster wrote:
Feb 18 2019 8:04am
My experience is that the Nexus 8 is more resistant than the Nexus 7.

Bosch motors used on IG bikes have a different version of firmware that lowers the max torque with at least 20%.
Their technicians explained me that they do that because there were too much problems with IG durability.
This has been confirmed to me by several experienced bike mechanics.
BUT: the problems are caused by the users!
Shifting gear while the motor pulls full power is the cause of these problems, the IG hubs don't break because of the motor power by itself.
Interesting!
I wonder if the manufacturers considered getting Shimano to add a shifter switch that acts when a shift is initiated. That could kill assist so a shift under full motor load is not possible.
There is an aftermarket shift interrupt switch which drops power when it senses cable movement. The newer Bafangs have an extra connector for it, or it gets wired into a brake switch. There used to be an IGH and derailer version, but they seem to have merged.
https://lunacycle.com/gearsensor-for-bafang-mid-drives/
This is from a US Vendor but it's made in Cz.

tomtom50   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by tomtom50 » Feb 19 2019 10:06am

Posted twice
Last edited by tomtom50 on Feb 19 2019 10:11am, edited 1 time in total.

tomtom50   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by tomtom50 » Feb 19 2019 10:07am

raylo32 wrote:
Feb 19 2019 7:54am
Thanks, Tom. Where can we find the tutorial?
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 8#p1444718

sysrq   1 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by sysrq » Feb 19 2019 11:59am

raylo32 wrote:
Feb 16 2019 5:04pm
Please take some pics to document the maintenance. Perhaps the mods could make a TSDZ2 maintenance sticky for users to refer to.
sysrq wrote:
Feb 16 2019 3:19pm
After riding in a misty weather during autumn and not using it for two months the motor now seems a bit louder and grittier. Probably will have to check the grease level on a secondary gear before finding out if white lithium grease is suitable.
Is there enough factory grease or it needs more. Overgreasing is never good.
https://imgur.com/a/Ey1ZKxm?

Bartman   1 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Bartman » Feb 19 2019 5:12pm

knutselmaaster wrote:
Feb 18 2019 3:47pm
Great stuff, keep it coming!
Thank you for sharing Bartman, quite amazing what the motor can handle when used right.
With that gearing it should have enormous torque!
How did you manage to get the chain line acceptable?
Here’s the link to the my post on the gearing setup.

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 8#p1424798

Update: the shifting delay between 17t and 13t has all but disspareaed after riding a few miles and everything has meshed on the drivetrain. Working great now.
Last edited by Bartman on Feb 20 2019 4:48am, edited 2 times in total.

Cristian   1 µW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Cristian » Feb 19 2019 8:09pm

tomtom50 wrote:
Feb 19 2019 10:07am
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 8#p1444718
[/quote]

That is unbelievably useful. I can't thank you enough. I ordered everything else i need to complete the KT LCD3 conversion.

Retrorockit   10 mW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Retrorockit » Feb 19 2019 8:25pm

I came across this 52T/42T double chainring for these.
https://www.ebay.com/i/183044566403?chn=ps

Uturn   100 mW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Uturn » Feb 20 2019 6:13am

Retrorockit wrote:
Feb 19 2019 8:25pm
came across this 52T/42T double chainring
These are just two normal chainrings for 130BCD, arent't they?

raylo32   10 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by raylo32 » Feb 20 2019 7:55am

That was actually an option with the TSDZ2 kits my vendor sells. They also offer a 34/42 double ring. I suppose you could install a front derailleur or just manually "shift" the chain by hand for the type of ride you are doing. But so far with my on-road use I am doing OK with just a stock 42T with a 32 rear cog, even on our hills. I could see a smaller ring being useful off road... or on some of the ultra steep (like 15% + grades) out in the mountains... or on a few local monster hills. I haven't tried my bike on anything like that yet. The smaller rings would be good for cargo bike/hauling duty, too. Not sure if they sell them apart from the full kits.

https://www.eco-ebike.com/collections/t ... tsdz2vlcd5
Retrorockit wrote:
Feb 19 2019 8:25pm
I came across this 52T/42T double chainring for these.
https://www.ebay.com/i/183044566403?chn=ps
Last edited by raylo32 on Feb 20 2019 8:12am, edited 3 times in total.

sysrq   1 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by sysrq » Feb 20 2019 8:06am

sysrq wrote:
Feb 19 2019 11:59am
raylo32 wrote:
Feb 16 2019 5:04pm
Please take some pics to document the maintenance. Perhaps the mods could make a TSDZ2 maintenance sticky for users to refer to.
sysrq wrote:
Feb 16 2019 3:19pm
After riding in a misty weather during autumn and not using it for two months the motor now seems a bit louder and grittier. Probably will have to check the grease level on a secondary gear before finding out if white lithium grease is suitable.
Is there enough factory grease or it needs more. Overgreasing is never good.
https://imgur.com/a/Ey1ZKxm?
Will gonna use Lucas Red n Tacky since mineral oils can be mixed with polyalphaolefins found in factory Molykote EM-50L and it has lithium as a thickiner as well. The only concern would be unknown additives. And since mineral oil is compatible with nylon or Delrin then seeping might not damage anything. Only lubricants based on esters or polyglycols are generally not compatible with plastics.
Polyurea grease (ParkPolylube, Lucas X-TRA Heavy Duty) would be better though as they say it holds up better at high speeds and is compatible with plastics too, but then everything would have to be completely degreased and that means complete overhaul.
The last reason is that some moly grease can be abrasive on certain parts.
http://what-when-how.com/materialsparts ... -plastics/
http://www.newmantools.com/pipestoppers ... nce_nt.pdf
https://www.autozone.com/greases-and-ge ... 693860_0_0
Actually esters are compatible with nylon according to current known source.
Last edited by sysrq on Feb 21 2019 6:02pm, edited 4 times in total.

hefest   10 mW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by hefest » Feb 20 2019 1:24pm

While still waiting for tsdz2 to arrive it looks to me like chainline offset made by tsdz2 might be an issue. I have shimano nexus 8 IGH. So how big of an issue is this going to be? From what I gathered chainring is sticking 50mm more to the right with tsdz2 and 42t chainring that comes with it has 5mm offset to the left, so it's going to stick out 45mm from where it is now? Is this correct? Can someone confirm this? Would getting the offset rear cog help?

raylo32   10 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by raylo32 » Feb 20 2019 1:45pm

I don't have an IGH, just a standard Shimano 8 speed setup with 68mm BB. My chainline is just about perfect with the TSDZ2 and its stock 42T chainring, maybe only a couple mm shifted to the right. Still have a straight chainline to the 4th gear on the cluster. The motor housing essentially sits where the small and middle chainrings went on the original 3x crank. Not sure why yours would be shifted 50mm to the right unless maybe you got one too long for your BB housing.
hefest wrote:
Feb 20 2019 1:24pm
While still waiting for tsdz2 to arrive it looks to me like chainline offset made by tsdz2 might be an issue. I have shimano nexus 8 IGH. So how big of an issue is this going to be? From what I gathered chainring is sticking 50mm more to the right with tsdz2 and 42t chainring that comes with it has 5mm offset to the left, so it's going to stick out 45mm from where it is now? Is this correct? Can someone confirm this? Would getting the offset rear cog help?

hefest   10 mW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by hefest » Feb 20 2019 1:55pm

raylo32 wrote:
Feb 20 2019 1:45pm
I don't have an IGH, just a standard Shimano 8 speed setup with 68mm BB. My chainline is just about perfect with the TSDZ2 and its stock 42T chainring, maybe only a couple mm shifted to the right. Still have a straight chainline to the 4th gear on the cluster. The motor housing essentially sits where the small and middle chainrings went on the original 3x crank. Not sure why yours would be shifted 50mm to the right unless maybe you got one too long for your BB housing.
hefest wrote:
Feb 20 2019 1:24pm
While still waiting for tsdz2 to arrive it looks to me like chainline offset made by tsdz2 might be an issue. I have shimano nexus 8 IGH. So how big of an issue is this going to be? From what I gathered chainring is sticking 50mm more to the right with tsdz2 and 42t chainring that comes with it has 5mm offset to the left, so it's going to stick out 45mm from where it is now? Is this correct? Can someone confirm this? Would getting the offset rear cog help?
I don't have the motor yet but from what I gathered from forum it might be an issue.
Problem is, I don't have front derailleur and one and only chainring sits 5-10mm from the bb. Found somewhere on this topic that tsdz2 when installed is going to sit 50mm from the bb.

mctubster   10 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by mctubster » Feb 20 2019 4:08pm

hefest wrote:
Feb 20 2019 1:24pm
While still waiting for tsdz2 to arrive it looks to me like chainline offset made by tsdz2 might be an issue. I have shimano nexus 8 IGH. So how big of an issue is this going to be? From what I gathered chainring is sticking 50mm more to the right with tsdz2 and 42t chainring that comes with it has 5mm offset to the left, so it's going to stick out 45mm from where it is now? Is this correct? Can someone confirm this? Would getting the offset rear cog help?
Not going to be an issue. Mine is in a 70mm bottom bracket driving Nexus 7 speed and then Nuvinci 360. Chainline is almost perfect.

hefest   10 mW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by hefest » Feb 20 2019 4:20pm

mctubster wrote:
Feb 20 2019 4:08pm
hefest wrote:
Feb 20 2019 1:24pm
While still waiting for tsdz2 to arrive it looks to me like chainline offset made by tsdz2 might be an issue. I have shimano nexus 8 IGH. So how big of an issue is this going to be? From what I gathered chainring is sticking 50mm more to the right with tsdz2 and 42t chainring that comes with it has 5mm offset to the left, so it's going to stick out 45mm from where it is now? Is this correct? Can someone confirm this? Would getting the offset rear cog help?
Not going to be an issue. Mine is in a 70mm bottom bracket driving Nexus 7 speed and then Nuvinci 360. Chainline is almost perfect.
Great to hear that, thanks.

tomtom50   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by tomtom50 » Feb 20 2019 7:46pm

hefest wrote:
Feb 20 2019 1:24pm
While still waiting for tsdz2 to arrive it looks to me like chainline offset made by tsdz2 might be an issue. I have shimano nexus 8 IGH. So how big of an issue is this going to be? From what I gathered chainring is sticking 50mm more to the right with tsdz2 and 42t chainring that comes with it has 5mm offset to the left, so it's going to stick out 45mm from where it is now? Is this correct? Can someone confirm this? Would getting the offset rear cog help?
See https://www.sheldonbrown.com/chainline.html

Typical derailleur bike chainlines are 43.5 to 50mm. TSDZ2 is 50mm (standard dished 42T chainring, flat chainrings have bigger chainline).

Most IGH hubs are 40.5 - 42mm. So you will be off 8 - 9mm if you use a flat sprocket.

Keep in mind derailleur systems force the chain into angles. 8-speed freehub cog spacing is about 5mm. So if you are completely straight onto a rear cog you are at 10mm offset. Things get bad about 20mm offset, so 10mm is really not that bad.

If you use a dished rear cog you will be off less than that.

Frames differ, you won't know for sure until you make measurements or fit it all up.

tomtom50   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by tomtom50 » Feb 20 2019 7:48pm

hefest wrote:
Feb 20 2019 1:55pm
I don't have the motor yet but from what I gathered from forum it might be an issue.
Problem is, I don't have front derailleur and one and only chainring sits 5-10mm from the bb. Found somewhere on this topic that tsdz2 when installed is going to sit 50mm from the bb.
50mm from the CENTER of the BB

hefest   10 mW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by hefest » Feb 21 2019 6:23am

tomtom50 wrote:
Feb 20 2019 7:46pm
hefest wrote:
Feb 20 2019 1:24pm
While still waiting for tsdz2 to arrive it looks to me like chainline offset made by tsdz2 might be an issue. I have shimano nexus 8 IGH. So how big of an issue is this going to be? From what I gathered chainring is sticking 50mm more to the right with tsdz2 and 42t chainring that comes with it has 5mm offset to the left, so it's going to stick out 45mm from where it is now? Is this correct? Can someone confirm this? Would getting the offset rear cog help?
See https://www.sheldonbrown.com/chainline.html

Typical derailleur bike chainlines are 43.5 to 50mm. TSDZ2 is 50mm (standard dished 42T chainring, flat chainrings have bigger chainline).

Most IGH hubs are 40.5 - 42mm. So you will be off 8 - 9mm if you use a flat sprocket.

Keep in mind derailleur systems force the chain into angles. 8-speed freehub cog spacing is about 5mm. So if you are completely straight onto a rear cog you are at 10mm offset. Things get bad about 20mm offset, so 10mm is really not that bad.

If you use a dished rear cog you will be off less than that.

Frames differ, you won't know for sure until you make measurements or fit it all up.
Ok, thanks. I'll have to fit it to actually see if there is a problem.

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