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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Posted: Sep 01 2019 8:11am
by sysrq
Elinx wrote:
Sep 01 2019 7:12am
sysrq wrote:
Sep 01 2019 6:52am
Not sure if 2mm thermal pad will work since laminated steel core (the most direct heat path) is not in the same level with the alloy end covers.
With 2mm pads I was thinking to build this with several layers.
First layer direct on the lamited steelcore, between mounting screws and end covers, the second layer around this first layer and mayby a third layer include the endcaps too.
I have ordered also some 2mm pads too, so I haven't tried this, maybe building like this the (or some) layers should be thinner.
The gap between the top of the motor and outer case can be solved with sticking a circular pad into the outer case.
For best conductivity there must be some pressure between the pads and outer case.

The solution to use conductive silicon putty is also a good one, because you fill all gaps at once when you put the outer case on the motor. Only I am not sure how the hardening process works if this putty is covered with foil and eventually the outer case.
What's the diameter of the motor and the inner width of the black cover. Substraction and division might suffice to get the sense of the gap between the motor and the case. Still not sure if the external cover will slide over thermal pad with sufficient pressure and without damage. Judging by the pictures looks like two layers of 2mm heat pad will not be thick enough to fill the space between the laminations and the external cover since the motor looks way smaller than the cover itself. Kinda seems like separate cover for the controller and with some heat sink directly on the laminations would be the proper way to go if one wants to ruin the designers intended look.

https://www.makeitbuildit.co.uk/motor-h ... lhEALw_wcB
Or just find some unified standard BLDC motor with a proper aluminium housing since modifying something with accessories often turns out to be more expensive or less efficient. Even the original replacement motor is relatively less expensive than 12 W/mK thermal pads.

It has been said that normally silicon grease/putty works only when used in thin layer so that it can fill micro imperfections on otherwise even surface.
https://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/s ... sf=msgonly

Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Posted: Sep 01 2019 10:38am
by wpenner
QuirkyOrk wrote:
Aug 31 2019 10:28pm
wpenner wrote:
Aug 31 2019 11:52am
Did you have a chance to test 3mm pads? Did you order them from eBay?
I received the 3mm pads, but haven't tested them at all as I have been very busy(in the process of moving currently). I am also generally satisfied with the cooling performance I'm getting at the moment with the pads I have in there. When I have more time I will mess around with the 3mm pads and make a DIY guide. If you want to give it a go and have any specific questions for me I'd be happy to help! :D
Bartman wrote:
Aug 31 2019 12:44pm

Brilliant. How do you stick the silicon pads onto the motor ? And do you have a link to the heatsinks ? Did they bend easily ?
The pad material is tacky and will stick to the motor by itself (though it is not a strong hold). Between that stickiness and the motor housing keeping it in place you will be all set.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/US-Stock-10pcs ... 2749.l2649

These are what I used, though in retrospect they are a little tall and stick out quite a bit. The shorter one on the bottom in the picture is a random electronics heatsink I had in my workshop. They bend relatively easily. If you have a vice and some pliers it isn't very difficult.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/10-Pcs-20x20x1 ... 2749.l2649

^^^^These are a little shorter and would probably be more low key. I think they would still provide plenty of heat dissipation.
I’ve ordered the 2mm pads, but i’ll have to wait for shipping. Hoping to be able to run higher amps without adding much weight. Guessing the pads are much more effective than the heat sinks since case already has a large surface area and huge temperature differential from the internal core.

Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Posted: Sep 01 2019 10:51am
by Elinx
sysrq wrote:
Sep 01 2019 8:11am
...........
It has been said that normally silicon grease/putty works only when used in thin layer so that it can fill micro imperfections on otherwise even surface. ........
That is thermal paste, what is for inbetween heatsink and chip.
I talk about thermal conductive silicon gap filler, that is about the same as normal silicon sealant, only heat conductive.
For example Kafuter k-5204k 300ml. (there are smaller packages too)

Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Posted: Sep 01 2019 12:19pm
by sysrq
wpenner wrote:
Sep 01 2019 10:38am
QuirkyOrk wrote:
Aug 31 2019 10:28pm
wpenner wrote:
Aug 31 2019 11:52am
Did you have a chance to test 3mm pads? Did you order them from eBay?
I received the 3mm pads, but haven't tested them at all as I have been very busy(in the process of moving currently). I am also generally satisfied with the cooling performance I'm getting at the moment with the pads I have in there. When I have more time I will mess around with the 3mm pads and make a DIY guide. If you want to give it a go and have any specific questions for me I'd be happy to help! :D
Bartman wrote:
Aug 31 2019 12:44pm

Brilliant. How do you stick the silicon pads onto the motor ? And do you have a link to the heatsinks ? Did they bend easily ?
The pad material is tacky and will stick to the motor by itself (though it is not a strong hold). Between that stickiness and the motor housing keeping it in place you will be all set.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/US-Stock-10pcs ... 2749.l2649

These are what I used, though in retrospect they are a little tall and stick out quite a bit. The shorter one on the bottom in the picture is a random electronics heatsink I had in my workshop. They bend relatively easily. If you have a vice and some pliers it isn't very difficult.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/10-Pcs-20x20x1 ... 2749.l2649

^^^^These are a little shorter and would probably be more low key. I think they would still provide plenty of heat dissipation.
I’ve ordered the 2mm pads, but i’ll have to wait for shipping. Hoping to be able to run higher amps without adding much weight. Guessing the pads are much more effective than the heat sinks since case already has a large surface area and huge temperature differential from the internal core.
[/ quote]

Thermal conductivity is only 1.6 W/mK. Really not sure if it will be possible to spread it over everything evenly. If it's a low viscosity then it could be possible to separate the controller with some sort of a plate to simultaneously minimise the required volume and fill it trough an external hole. Seems too invasive compared to thermal pads.

Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Posted: Sep 01 2019 2:20pm
by sysrq
wpenner wrote:
Sep 01 2019 10:38am
QuirkyOrk wrote:
Aug 31 2019 10:28pm
wpenner wrote:
Aug 31 2019 11:52am
Did you have a chance to test 3mm pads? Did you order them from eBay?
I received the 3mm pads, but haven't tested them at all as I have been very busy(in the process of moving currently). I am also generally satisfied with the cooling performance I'm getting at the moment with the pads I have in there. When I have more time I will mess around with the 3mm pads and make a DIY guide. If you want to give it a go and have any specific questions for me I'd be happy to help! :D
Bartman wrote:
Aug 31 2019 12:44pm

Brilliant. How do you stick the silicon pads onto the motor ? And do you have a link to the heatsinks ? Did they bend easily ?
The pad material is tacky and will stick to the motor by itself (though it is not a strong hold). Between that stickiness and the motor housing keeping it in place you will be all set.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/US-Stock-10pcs ... 2749.l2649

These are what I used, though in retrospect they are a little tall and stick out quite a bit. The shorter one on the bottom in the picture is a random electronics heatsink I had in my workshop. They bend relatively easily. If you have a vice and some pliers it isn't very difficult.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/10-Pcs-20x20x1 ... 2749.l2649

^^^^These are a little shorter and would probably be more low key. I think they would still provide plenty of heat dissipation.
I’ve ordered the 2mm pads, but i’ll have to wait for shipping. Hoping to be able to run higher amps without adding much weight. Guessing the pads are much more effective than the heat sinks since case already has a large surface area and huge temperature differential from the internal core.
According to measurements (75mm cover diameter - 65mm core diameter =10mm), to be able to apply some pressure on the heat pads without sliding action while putting on the cover they should be at least 8-11 mm thick, so the heat transfer will be way too low to justify the expenses.
https://m.made-in-china.com/product/Hea ... ml#viewAll
I think putting some segments of 65mm aluminium pipe in between the motor screws on the laminated core together with thinner thermal pads would work better.
Judging by the size TSDZ2 must have only approximately 100-150W motor, so there is nothing to expect from it.
https://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/dc-motors/8332825/

Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Posted: Sep 01 2019 4:44pm
by andrea_104kg
viewtopic.php?f=28&t=102046

You can do very better :D

Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Posted: Sep 01 2019 6:54pm
by Retrorockit
sysrq wrote:
Sep 01 2019 2:20pm
wpenner wrote:
Sep 01 2019 10:38am
QuirkyOrk wrote:
Aug 31 2019 10:28pm
wpenner wrote:
Aug 31 2019 11:52am
Did you have a chance to test 3mm pads? Did you order them from eBay?
I received the 3mm pads, but haven't tested them at all as I have been very busy(in the process of moving currently). I am also generally satisfied with the cooling performance I'm getting at the moment with the pads I have in there. When I have more time I will mess around with the 3mm pads and make a DIY guide. If you want to give it a go and have any specific questions for me I'd be happy to help! :D
Bartman wrote:
Aug 31 2019 12:44pm

Brilliant. How do you stick the silicon pads onto the motor ? And do you have a link to the heatsinks ? Did they bend easily ?
The pad material is tacky and will stick to the motor by itself (though it is not a strong hold). Between that stickiness and the motor housing keeping it in place you will be all set.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/US-Stock-10pcs ... 2749.l2649

These are what I used, though in retrospect they are a little tall and stick out quite a bit. The shorter one on the bottom in the picture is a random electronics heatsink I had in my workshop. They bend relatively easily. If you have a vice and some pliers it isn't very difficult.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/10-Pcs-20x20x1 ... 2749.l2649

^^^^These are a little shorter and would probably be more low key. I think they would still provide plenty of heat dissipation.
I’ve ordered the 2mm pads, but i’ll have to wait for shipping. Hoping to be able to run higher amps without adding much weight. Guessing the pads are much more effective than the heat sinks since case already has a large surface area and huge temperature differential from the internal core.
According to measurements (75mm cover diameter - 65mm core diameter =10mm), to be able to apply some pressure on the heat pads without sliding action while putting on the cover they should be at least 8-11 mm thick, so the heat transfer will be way too low to justify the expenses.
https://m.made-in-china.com/product/Hea ... ml#viewAll
I think putting some segments of 65mm aluminium pipe in between the motor screws on the laminated core together with thinner thermal pads would work better.
Judging by the size TSDZ2 must have only approximately 100-150W motor, so there is nothing to expect from it.
https://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/dc-motors/8332825/
In principle the pads would be too thick, except someone tried it and it worked.
The normal practice in electronics is for thermal paste to be used between 2 flat surfaces in as thin a layer as possible. The pads are used to cover uneven surfaces ,or multiple chips with one heatsink. Aluminum has a thermal conductivity of about 240, Copper is 400. The radius difference would be 5mm so not as bad as described. If you have the ability to work with metal tubing it would be much better. TIM paste or pads will still be needed to ensure good heat transfer with rough surface of the motor. Paste would allow removal of the cover. The putty allows you to form your own themal pad.

Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Posted: Sep 02 2019 1:43am
by Elinx
Retrorockit wrote:
Sep 01 2019 6:54pm
............ Aluminum has a thermal conductivity of about 240, Copper is 400. The radius difference would be 5mm so not as bad as described. If you have the ability to work with metal tubing it would be much better. TIM paste or pads will still be needed to ensure good heat transfer with rough surface of the motor. Paste would allow removal of the cover. The putty allows you to form your own themal pad.
Andrea_104kg has used copper to fill the laminated core to the same diameter as the end caps
viewtopic.php?f=28&t=102046

Image

Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Posted: Sep 02 2019 8:44am
by jpl83
I have also a problem with the temperature of my TSDZ and the aluminium cap I put above it to protect from the sun (I ride an ICE trike) does not seem to help a lot !

But this is becoming a minor problem ! After 9 months of good service (low service at level 1 or 2) the TSDZ does not provide any help after 30 s to 2 mn ! If I stop all and start again, it works … 1 mn
So it does not seem to be a bad contact. The informations on the VLCD5 panel seem normal, speed, battery, assistance level ; they obey to the button but no effect on the engine exept at the beginning (I feel the increase of power if I go from level 1 to level 2 during this mn of happiness …)

I bought a new controller and a KTLCD3 screen with the OSF some months ago ; they will arrive … I hope
Will they help to solve the problem or on the contrary will it become more confused ? :confused:

Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Posted: Sep 02 2019 9:08am
by casainho
jpl83 wrote:
Sep 02 2019 8:44am
But this is becoming a minor problem ! After 9 months of good service (low service at level 1 or 2) the TSDZ does not provide any help after 30 s to 2 mn ! If I stop all and start again, it works … 1 mn
You are overheating your motor. You need to use our OpenSource firmware that will improve this a a few ways, at least will manage automatically the power to avoid overheating.

By now you probably damaged your motor forever by demagnetization and it is weaker -- you should read about this on wiki and buy a new motor that costs 60 euros.

Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Posted: Sep 02 2019 11:22am
by RicMcK
How about putting fine grit steel wool (000) pads between the motor and case? They are compressible, high conductivity.

Does the motor and case needs to be electrically isolated?

Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Posted: Sep 02 2019 12:20pm
by sysrq
RicMcK wrote:
Sep 02 2019 11:22am
How about putting fine grit steel wool (000) pads between the motor and case? They are compressible, high conductivity.

Does the motor and case needs to be electrically isolated?
Steel has a low thermal conductivity. Uniform/even heat dissipation around the motor and uncertainty of being able to fit everything tightly for maximum heat transfer is problematic. Wrapping some passive two-phase transfer heat pipes around the motor together with thermal epoxy or thermal pads for serviceability and then attaching the other ends somewhere else could be somewhat easier, although they still seem way too expensive for an average public to afford just like the thermal pads.
Theoretically the other ends could be attached anywhere like bicycle frame or somewhere inside the housing above the motor for better liquid return due to gravity and to make it look less ridiculous. 5x40W 5mm heat pipes would give 160 W power transfer capacity, so might not be enough and too expensive.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... 1117305458
The only conclusion is that there is no straightforward solution for this other than appropriate construction (motor embedded into the whole enclosure/chassis acting as a heat sink) or size of the motor. I really don't know why did they used such a high profile cover for the motor side while wasting thick metal for battery wire connection cavity. Probably cause otherwise it would make harder to extract the embedded motor without special tools.
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/imag ... s4K53bLdnz

Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Posted: Sep 02 2019 12:23pm
by Elinx
RicMcK wrote:
Sep 02 2019 11:22am
How about putting fine grit steel wool (000) pads between the motor and case? They are compressible, high conductivity.

Does the motor and case needs to be electrically isolated?
I think this could indeed the cheapest and easiest solution till now.
I don't think electical isolation is nesssary, because all metal parts are connected to each other and the outer case.

Only problem I forsee is how to fixate these pads. Maybe between thin sticky thermal silicon pads (0,5mm), like a sandwich?

Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Posted: Sep 02 2019 12:26pm
by jpl83
casainho wrote:
Sep 02 2019 9:08am
jpl83 wrote:
Sep 02 2019 8:44am
But this is becoming a minor problem ! After 9 months of good service (low service at level 1 or 2) the TSDZ does not provide any help after 30 s to 2 mn ! If I stop all and start again, it works … 1 mn
You are overheating your motor. You need to use our OpenSource firmware that will improve this a a few ways, at least will manage automatically the power to avoid overheating.

By now you probably damaged your motor forever by demagnetization and it is weaker -- you should read about this on wiki and buy a new motor that costs 60 euros.
This wiki ?
https://github.com/OpenSource-EBike-fir ... _wiki/wiki

I found Nothing about overheating and demagnetisation ! :oops:

When it works, the motor is not weak at all
If I overheat it, the weakness appears progressivly or I am wrong ?
It looks like the controller receives nothing from the torque sensor after a while (despite a very low level of assistance)
With the new software I shall be abble to control the signal from the torque sensor ...

Happily, I have another trike with a Q100 from 2014 whith no problem ...

Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Posted: Sep 02 2019 8:13pm
by eyebyesickle
Guys, I'm working on a short article for the cooling of the TSDZ2... I tried all sorts of things... At the end to keep it simple, let me tell you what I found to be best.

Thermal Pads, GP extreme are best, and have high thermal transfer, but you can get something cheaper, just doesn't work as good.

Things to consider'

- one end of the motor, that faces the controller doesn't really need anything, so don't waste $$ on expensive thermal pad there IMO... Plus I wouldn't want to bring the heat closer to the controller, where the tops of the caps are..

- in the motor cover, there is a lip it fits into, so don't bring up the thermal pads too high or you won't be able to get the cover on

- the top of the motor is concave

- you don't want the thermal pads to catch and tear on the lip of the motor cover

So, here is what I do.

Motor:

- put 3mm thick pad around the middle, which is more recessed then the top and bottom cap
- then wrap the whole thing with another 3mm pad. Leave a little room at the top, because there is a lip on the motor cover.
- use 5-10mm kapton tape around the top edge, securing and protecting the thermal pad from catching/abrasion when the motor cover goes on.

Motor Cover:

- put a 5mm pad/strip around edge of recessed circle
- put a 2mm pad/strip in the middle of the 5mm pad/strip
- grease sides of motor cover with thermal grease, for easy slide on/off, and also aids in thermal transfer


Summary: 3mm around inside of motor to level out the recessed part between the caps, then another 3mm around the whole thing. Put a 5mm ring in the recessed lip at the bottom of the motor cover, and a 2mm pad to fill the middle. Grease the sides with thermal grease. Good to go.

Measurements of strips with pictures coming soon. I already took them but need to format them smaller to post, and I'm on my phone.

I tried alot alot alot of stuff... This is simple, looks clean, and works.

How well does it work? Depends how much you send on quality thermal pads.... Spend almost $100 gets you top of the line GP extreme, and you can run full power alot as long as you keep cadence up as well.... For $20 you can get cheap pads with about 1/5 of the performance... Not worth it IMO, of you are looking for a real solution.

That being said, for under $100, you can take the motor to the next (power) level... More than worth it for me.

Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Posted: Sep 02 2019 9:57pm
by sysrq
eyebyesickle wrote:
Sep 02 2019 8:13pm
Guys, I'm working on a short article for the cooling of the TSDZ2... I tried all sorts of things... At the end to keep it simple, let me tell you what I found to be best.

Thermal Pads, GP extreme are best, and have high thermal transfer, but you can get something cheaper, just doesn't work as good.

Things to consider'

- one end of the motor, that faces the controller doesn't really need anything, so don't waste $$ on expensive thermal pad there IMO... Plus I wouldn't want to bring the heat closer to the controller, where the tops of the caps are..

- in the motor cover, there is a lip it fits into, so don't bring up the thermal pads too high or you won't be able to get the cover on

- the top of the motor is concave

- you don't want the thermal pads to catch and tear on the lip of the motor cover

So, here is what I do.

Motor:

- put 3mm thick pad around the middle, which is more recessed then the top and bottom cap
- then wrap the whole thing with another 3mm pad. Leave a little room at the top, because there is a lip on the motor cover.
- use 5-10mm kapton tape around the top edge, securing and protecting the thermal pad from catching/abrasion when the motor cover goes on.

Motor Cover:

- put a 5mm pad/strip around edge of recessed circle
- put a 2mm pad/strip in the middle of the 5mm pad/strip
- grease sides of motor cover with thermal grease, for easy slide on/off, and also aids in thermal transfer


Summary: 3mm around inside of motor to level out the recessed part between the caps, then another 3mm around the whole thing. Put a 5mm ring in the recessed lip at the bottom of the motor cover, and a 2mm pad to fill the middle. Grease the sides with thermal grease. Good to go.

Measurements of strips with pictures coming soon. I already took them but need to format them smaller to post, and I'm on my phone.

I tried alot alot alot of stuff... This is simple, looks clean, and works.

How well does it work? Depends how much you send on quality thermal pads.... Spend almost $100 gets you top of the line GP extreme, and you can run full power alot as long as you keep cadence up as well.... For $20 you can get cheap pads with about 1/5 of the performance... Not worth it IMO, of you are looking for a real solution.

That being said, for under $100, you can take the motor to the next (power) level... More than worth it for me.
What about passive two-phase transfer heat pipes. I can't think of any sane way to economically properly attach them.
https://ars.els-cdn.com/content/image/1 ... 58-gr4.jpg
This arrangement would be the most ecconomical way for uniform/even heat removal without bending the multiple 5mm pipes around the motor. That would require drilling some holes and securing the pipes with a thermal epoxy.
Single one with higher power transfer capacity also could be used if one figures out how to implement it.
https://uk.farnell.com/amec-thermasol/m ... dp/2290483
Possibly warping it around the motor with thermal epoxy and then somehow clamping it against the black wide profile external casing after putting it on would be one of the ways to do it.

There seems to be too much uncertainty with using thermal pads only since they are meant to be more or less clamped down. In this case it's hard to imagine how it could be done.

The only solution I can think of is to get rid of the old black high profile external cover and machine a new housing with the motor embedded inside with a simple external cover plate instead, like in a Bosch mid drives for example. That would require removing and somewhat redesigning the end cap where the motor phase wire terminals are though.

Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Posted: Sep 03 2019 1:09am
by eyebyesickle
sysrq wrote:
Sep 02 2019 9:57pm

There seems to be too much uncertainty with using thermal pads only since they are meant to be more or less clamped down. In this case it's hard to imagine how it could be done.

The only solution I can think of is to get rid of the old black high profile external cover and machine a new housing with the motor embedded inside with a simple external cover plate instead, like in a Bosch mid drives for example. That would require removing and somewhat redesigning the end cap where the motor phase wire terminals are though.
Sorry I'm not quite clear on the problem? Are you saying there is not enough pressure?

No uncertainty here, I've been trying slightly different methods for literally months... the only reason I'm really speaking up is because I see people on the same path, and wanted to share the info I had so nobody spends resources for 'no' reason... It definitely works good, but you have to get the expensive thermal pads, which are much more sense and don't have much give, compared to cheaper pads, which are way more soft.... With a touch of thermal grease to lube up the motor housing, it slides on, just without tearing, and everything is nice and snug... Definitely helps cool by alot... I don't have hard numbers, but I am talking worth doing...

Let me know if I can clarify anything, but I'll write an article by this weekend or so, with pics, and hopefully some 850C graphs that show motor power and temp to compare to each other... Of course looking at cadence as well, as it helps to keep cadence up..

Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Posted: Sep 03 2019 1:13am
by Elinx
eyebyesickle wrote:
Sep 02 2019 8:13pm
Guys, I'm working on a short article for the cooling of the TSDZ2... I tried all sorts of things... At the end to keep it simple, let me tell you what I found to be best.

Thermal Pads, GP extreme are best, and have high thermal transfer, but you can get something cheaper, just doesn't work as good.................
...................
Measurements of strips with pictures coming soon. I already took them but need to format them smaller to post, and I'm on my phone..................
Thank you for your detailed description, it looks that the thickness of the pads is a lot more then I thought first.
I hope you can share the pictures soon too.

Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Posted: Sep 03 2019 3:03am
by sysrq
eyebyesickle wrote:
Sep 03 2019 1:09am
sysrq wrote:
Sep 02 2019 9:57pm

There seems to be too much uncertainty with using thermal pads only since they are meant to be more or less clamped down. In this case it's hard to imagine how it could be done.

The only solution I can think of is to get rid of the old black high profile external cover and machine a new housing with the motor embedded inside with a simple external cover plate instead, like in a Bosch mid drives for example. That would require removing and somewhat redesigning the end cap where the motor phase wire terminals are though.
Sorry I'm not quite clear on the problem? Are you saying there is not enough pressure?

No uncertainty here, I've been trying slightly different methods for literally months... the only reason I'm really speaking up is because I see people on the same path, and wanted to share the info I had so nobody spends resources for 'no' reason... It definitely works good, but you have to get the expensive thermal pads, which are much more sense and don't have much give, compared to cheaper pads, which are way more soft.... With a touch of thermal grease to lube up the motor housing, it slides on, just without tearing, and everything is nice and snug... Definitely helps cool by alot... I don't have hard numbers, but I am talking worth doing...

Let me know if I can clarify anything, but I'll write an article by this weekend or so, with pics, and hopefully some 850C graphs that show motor power and temp to compare to each other... Of course looking at cadence as well, as it helps to keep cadence up..
"Never use thermal compounds and thermal pads together."
https://blog.arctic.ac/blog/2015/07/23/ ... mal-paste/
Not sure if always true.

Forgot to take into account typical BLDC motor efficiency (85%), so the requered power handling capacity of the heat pipe would be only around 50-60W for a 350W motor. That would mean that wrapping one 5 mm pipe around the motor and attaching it with thermal epoxy in to the round corner next to the controller should be enough. This way there isn't any need to attach anything to the black low thermal mass external cover.

Another low key solution I can think of would be tying around the motor some 2-5mm thick OFHC copper L bends depending on measurements in between the screws around in conjunction with thermal pads using a jubilee clip. The other ends would press against the round protrusion of the external cover above the motor terminal plate making it possible to put some pressure on the 2 mm thick thermal pads while tightening the cower screws.

Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Posted: Sep 03 2019 2:22pm
by samuelsson87
Hi! I just bought a motor and wonder if I can test the motor's torque sensor without having it mounted on the bike?
Walk assist and throttle works but i cant get the motor running by just winding the crank by hand..

Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Posted: Sep 03 2019 2:45pm
by andrea_104kg
I do not think it is possible. The torque sensor must feel a resistance, otherwise there is no torque.
On the descent, for example, the engine does not start by turning the pedals ... the wheel does not resist.

Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Posted: Sep 03 2019 2:51pm
by andrea_104kg
RicMcK wrote:
Sep 02 2019 11:22am
How about putting fine grit steel wool (000) pads between the motor and case? They are compressible, high conductivity.

Does the motor and case needs to be electrically isolated?
also exists fine copper wool, very good conductivity, i think that it work! it's suffit search on ebay...

Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Posted: Sep 03 2019 3:23pm
by samuelsson87
andrea_104kg wrote:
Sep 03 2019 2:45pm
I do not think it is possible. The torque sensor must feel a resistance, otherwise there is no torque.
On the descent, for example, the engine does not start by turning the pedals ... the wheel does not resist.
Ok, thanks. I've tried to 'hold' the chainring but I guess it's not an optimal setup ;)

Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Posted: Sep 03 2019 5:30pm
by knutselmaaster
samuelsson87 wrote:
Sep 03 2019 3:23pm
andrea_104kg wrote:
Sep 03 2019 2:45pm
I do not think it is possible. The torque sensor must feel a resistance, otherwise there is no torque.
On the descent, for example, the engine does not start by turning the pedals ... the wheel does not resist.
Ok, thanks. I've tried to 'hold' the chainring but I guess it's not an optimal setup ;)
If you have a solid bike stand that holds it firmly, you can adjust the brakes so that they give enough resistance to test the motor. Don't tighten too much though and only use short bursts or else you might damage the motor. I use this method to test "if it works", to really test the torque sensor you'll need to ride the bike.

Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Posted: Sep 03 2019 7:47pm
by eyebyesickle
sysrq wrote:
Sep 03 2019 3:03am

"Never use thermal compounds and thermal pads together."
https://blog.arctic.ac/blog/2015/07/23/ ... mal-paste/
Not sure if always true.

Forgot to take into account typical BLDC motor efficiency (85%), so the requered power handling capacity of the heat pipe would be only around 50-60W for a 350W motor. That would mean that wrapping one 5 mm pipe around the motor and attaching it with thermal epoxy in to the round corner next to the controller should be enough. This way there isn't any need to attach anything to the black low thermal mass external cover.

Another low key solution I can think of would be tying around the motor some 2-5mm thick OFHC copper L bends depending on measurements in between the screws around in conjunction with thermal pads using a jubilee clip. The other ends would press against the round protrusion of the external cover above the motor terminal plate making it possible to put some pressure on the 2 mm thick thermal pads while tightening the cower screws.
So, I don't know for sure, but this is what I am thinking...Usually thermal grease has way high Wm/K thermal transfer rating than the pads...so I think when you use both, the thermal grease is usually touching whatever you are mounting, and then the thermal pad.... I think if the thermal grease has a higher Wm/K rating than the pad, it makes it not work as good because it is pulling the heat from the pad, if that makes sense.... but the way we have it configured...the thermal paste is on the outside of it all, away from what we are trying to cool, so it is continuing to pull heat out, and transferring it to the motor housing cover... either way it is needed to lube up the sides, and it definitely is working well, so that is what I know for sure...

BTW I use 12 Wm/K GP extreme thermal pads... and GP extreme thermal grease too...they both seem to have the highest Wm/K rating for a readily available retail/product.

Just more detail, since im slow with the pics...

qty: 4 - GP extreme 40x80mmx3mm - one gets cut longways in half, and wrapped around middle of motor, then the next two stay whole and wrap around the motor. the ends dont touch - they dont fully encapsulate the motor, which is fine, because one side of the motor does not touch the motor housing side - it faces the controller. this is also where I install a temperature sensor.. the last one gets cut into strips and lays around the circular edge in the motor housing cover.

qty: 2 - GP extreme 40x80x2mm - one lays flat in the middle of the circle in the motor housing cover, the other is chopped into strips, and stacked on the 3mm strips around the edge of the motor housing cover, to make it 5mm.

qty: 1 - gp extreme thermal grease - luuuuuuuuube up the sides (doesn't take much)

total cost - approx $120 + shipping!!! YIKES!!!

...but still makes it a new motor IMO... worth every penny...I am open to something else, but this is super quick and simple... and works very good...