New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Discussions related to motors other than hub motors.
This includes R/C motors, botttom bracket, roller and geared drives.
mctubster   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by mctubster » Sep 22 2019 5:08pm

GastonBlunder wrote:
Sep 22 2019 7:39am
Battery wise I guess I would be fine with 36V.
But why would the torque be higher with the 48V motor?
Stall torque should be similar. The 48V motor will be able to develop more power as the cadence (RPM) goes up.

Having said that, both the 36V and 48V motors have the same thermal limitations, so unless you are doing a cooling mod, you will not be able to utilise the additional power of the 48V motor for very long as it will overheat.

In my opinion get the 36V if you want to run at lower power levels (<400W) on a lighter bike, eg a mountain bike. Get the 48V if you are interested in higher top speeds on the flat and you are less worried about weight.

I use a 36V on my cargo bike, it weights 45KG empty, and the 36V has plenty of torque. I don't need the power as I am only using moderate assist to keep fit. Motor helps accelerating and climbing steep hills.

One other advantage to running the 36V is you can hotrod it - that is run the 36V motor with a 48V battery, increasing its max cadence ... from around 90RPM to 110RPM if you ride with high cadence.

andrea_104kg   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by andrea_104kg » Sep 22 2019 5:18pm

I have 36v and 48v. 48v have more power/torque but if you go at max power you easy burn the motor. In normal legal/street use they are very similar

jimmyfergus   100 mW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by jimmyfergus » Sep 23 2019 7:54am

If you want something really light, the "mini cube" batteries are great - I have a 14p2s / 300Wh and it weighs about 1.5kg and fits in a small saddle bag. 300Wh is only about a max of 30 miles / 45km on the road for me, so more like 20m/30km for everyday use (not to punish the pack by full charge/discharge). Also, obviously, for single track it'll likely be even more limited range.

Also, on the subject of weight, I was surprised to find my build came out at less than bike weight + TSDZ2 weight + battery weight. I forgot that I was discarding a bottom bracket, which is not light (6-700g). My total electrification weight penalty was only around 9lb, a little over 4kg. (Ironically I did this to a heavy bike, so the total is 44lb/20kg.)

sysrq   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by sysrq » Sep 23 2019 10:02am

GastonBlunder wrote:
Sep 19 2019 7:28am
Hi there,

I am quite interested in this TSDZ2 and I have a few questions.

I have a Giant electric bike (Explore E+), 36V/250W, max 25kmph
It's powerful and great to go uphill but once on the flat or downhill it's heavy like a tank and I don't have much fun riding it.

I am planing to install an electric motor on a normal bike, hopefully it will make me happier.
I like the pedal assist, so the TSDZ2 is the better choice for me rather than a Bafang.

I am lightweight, 60kgs
I will install the kit on a flat bar road bike without hydraulic fork, weight about 12kgs.
Motor + Battery about 8kgs
A bit of cargo and equipement, +5kgs
Total about 85kgs

My Giant has 5 levels of assists:
ECO 50%
ECO+ 100%
NORMAL 175%
SPORT 250%
SPORT+ 350%
I rarely go up to the Sport mode. Sport+ is overkill for the routes I use.
I don't mind using my legs a bit.

1. Given these inputs, with the TSDZ2 how fast can I go uphill, at a 5% gradient? Will the motor be able to sustain 25kmph with a bit of help from myself?
I am a bit worried by this:
sysrq wrote:
Sep 18 2019 10:09pm
Climbing hills on 52t and 28t seems impossible. Some people in this thread report motor being too weak for moderate hills (4-8%) in general.
2. What are the differences between the 36V/250W or the 48V/250W? Will using the Open Source Firmware make these differences almost irrelevant?

3. Is the resistance when the motor not running (or once it reached 25kmph) a problem?

Thanks!
Going for higher voltage is always better for hill climbing and for reduction of overheating (inherent lack of thermal management). Personally went for 36V version due to planned DIY LTO battery for safety reasons.
Maintaining speed during climbing is also dependent on the right gear selection (gear too high and the motor will struggle, gear too low and there will not be enough torque for the torque sensor to sense due to cadances over 90RPM in which the motor won't help). 28t with 42t chainring and 700c 32mm tires was to high for the 36V motor to cope on 0.5-1km long 5% hills. 34t seems too low, will gonna need 32t probably.
Last edited by sysrq on Sep 23 2019 10:25am, edited 2 times in total.

sysrq   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by sysrq » Sep 23 2019 10:19am

RicMcK wrote:
Sep 19 2019 7:37pm
sysrq wrote:
Sep 18 2019 10:41pm
rba wrote:
Sep 17 2019 8:54am
Hi,

I replaced the sprag cluch on my engine but it turns out the play is between the inner race of the sprag and the axle. The problem is that the fit of the sprag on axle is loose and the presence of the key makes it even looser. I'm working on a key that can be expanded to fix the sprag better to the axle. I tried shimming between sprag and axle, but was not successful with the materials available.

Regards,
Rba
Almost seems like the play is intentional for ease of installation. Quite weird when knowing that helical gears normally work with conical roller bearings to take the side loads. Mine suddenly started to make perriodic rough grinding noise when completely unloaded on to of the usual gear mesh sound.
I just did an r&r of sparg clutch as the bearing had some slop (wiggle) on the axel. I cleaned it up and put some Loctite 660 on the key & key way & on axel and bearing. It is now tight with only a little bearing play.👍.
What about the price of the Loctite 660 and being able to remove the parts again. Seems like the price doesn't outweight the benefit in this case. Not sure about angular and radial misalignment.

mittkonto   10 mW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by mittkonto » Sep 23 2019 11:40am

Its ok to ride the bike (with tsdz2 installed) without anything connected right?

manoz   1 mW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by manoz » Sep 23 2019 12:15pm

Could corrosion be why my motor is giving little or no power?

I opened up my motor today and there was what I assume is corrosion on the inside of the casing, it's a white powdery substance. I checked the cable which disconnects in order to remove the motor for gear replacement and the pins on that cable connector were no longer silver but white. I managed to wipe one side clean but the other side of the pins are very hard to get to since the connector is so thin. The motor is defientely trying to work since I can feel the vibration under my foot but it is not giving the power burst that it should. Not sure if the motor is done for and if i should buy another one? Any help and advice appreciated

RicMcK   1 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by RicMcK » Sep 23 2019 2:13pm

sysrq wrote:
Sep 23 2019 10:19am
RicMcK wrote:
Sep 19 2019 7:37pm
sysrq wrote:
Sep 18 2019 10:41pm
rba wrote:
Sep 17 2019 8:54am
Hi,

I replaced the sprag cluch on my engine but it turns out the play is between the inner race of the sprag and the axle. The problem is that the fit of the sprag on axle is loose and the presence of the key makes it even looser. I'm working on a key that can be expanded to fix the sprag better to the axle. I tried shimming between sprag and axle, but was not successful with the materials available.

Regards,
Rba
Almost seems like the play is intentional for ease of installation. Quite weird when knowing that helical gears normally work with conical roller bearings to take the side loads. Mine suddenly started to make perriodic rough grinding noise when completely unloaded on to of the usual gear mesh sound.
I just did an r&r of sparg clutch as the bearing had some slop (wiggle) on the axel. I cleaned it up and put some Loctite 660 on the key & key way & on axel and bearing. It is now tight with only a little bearing play.👍.
What about the price of the Loctite 660 and being able to remove the parts again. Seems like the price doesn't outweight the benefit in this case. Not sure about angular and radial misalignment.
The loctite 660 is cheep (very small tube, $8USD -Amazon). I figure I will rig up a puller (with an extra spider) to remove the sparg clutch, if and when I need to. I would rather have it tight and not wear the shaft.
Rick Seattle WA

sysrq   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by sysrq » Sep 23 2019 4:34pm

RicMcK wrote:
Sep 23 2019 2:13pm
sysrq wrote:
Sep 23 2019 10:19am
RicMcK wrote:
Sep 19 2019 7:37pm
sysrq wrote:
Sep 18 2019 10:41pm


Almost seems like the play is intentional for ease of installation. Quite weird when knowing that helical gears normally work with conical roller bearings to take the side loads. Mine suddenly started to make perriodic rough grinding noise when completely unloaded on to of the usual gear mesh sound.
I just did an r&r of sparg clutch as the bearing had some slop (wiggle) on the axel. I cleaned it up and put some Loctite 660 on the key & key way & on axel and bearing. It is now tight with only a little bearing play.👍.
What about the price of the Loctite 660 and being able to remove the parts again. Seems like the price doesn't outweight the benefit in this case. Not sure about angular and radial misalignment.
The loctite 660 is cheep (very small tube, $8USD -Amazon). I figure I will rig up a puller (with an extra spider) to remove the sparg clutch, if and when I need to. I would rather have it tight and not wear the shaft.
Not in Europe then.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Loctite-Henkel ... B002UNNTZ8

RicMcK   1 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by RicMcK » Sep 23 2019 5:23pm

sysrq wrote:
Sep 23 2019 4:34pm
RicMcK wrote:
Sep 23 2019 2:13pm
sysrq wrote:
Sep 23 2019 10:19am
RicMcK wrote:
Sep 19 2019 7:37pm


I just did an r&r of sparg clutch as the bearing had some slop (wiggle) on the axel. I cleaned it up and put some Loctite 660 on the key & key way & on axel and bearing. It is now tight with only a little bearing play.👍.
What about the price of the Loctite 660 and being able to remove the parts again. Seems like the price doesn't outweight the benefit in this case. Not sure about angular and radial misalignment.
The loctite 660 is cheep (very small tube, $8USD -Amazon). I figure I will rig up a puller (with an extra spider) to remove the sparg clutch, if and when I need to. I would rather have it tight and not wear the shaft.
Not in Europe then.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Loctite-Henkel ... B002UNNTZ8
OUCH :!: There are other options that you can probably find locally at a better price.
Rick Seattle WA

ezrider1199   10 mW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by ezrider1199 » Sep 25 2019 8:42am

Is there a feature list for the SW102 and 850C somewhere? Im trying to find out what information they both can display. Can the 850C and SW102 display on one screen the distance, speed, avg speed, volts, watts, energy used? And can some of the metrics be reset like a cars odometer (distance, energy used, avg speed)? Thanks!

dameri   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by dameri » Sep 25 2019 8:48am

https://ebikechoices.com/p850c-manual/

Above link for 850C manual. I don't know which functions work with OSF.

ezrider1199   10 mW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by ezrider1199 » Sep 25 2019 9:28am

RicMcK wrote:
Sep 23 2019 5:23pm
sysrq wrote:
Sep 23 2019 4:34pm
RicMcK wrote:
Sep 23 2019 2:13pm
sysrq wrote:
Sep 23 2019 10:19am


What about the price of the Loctite 660 and being able to remove the parts again. Seems like the price doesn't outweight the benefit in this case. Not sure about angular and radial misalignment.
The loctite 660 is cheep (very small tube, $8USD -Amazon). I figure I will rig up a puller (with an extra spider) to remove the sparg clutch, if and when I need to. I would rather have it tight and not wear the shaft.
Not in Europe then.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Loctite-Henkel ... B002UNNTZ8
OUCH :!: There are other options that you can probably find locally at a better price.

There are very cheap loctite knockoffs on ali

CatfishMan   100 µW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by CatfishMan » Sep 25 2019 6:35pm

So I just finished putting together my TSDZ2 kit, and I'm having a problem where the motor won't engage via throttle or PAS. I know there is juice because walk assist mode works. Motor/850C display are flashed with the open source custom firmware. Pretty sure everything is hooked up correctly (I think it would be pretty hard to get that wrong given the connectors and for right now I just have the minimum hooked up). I'm using the 52v em3ev Jumbo Shark battery.

Wondering if I have something set up wrong in the configuration? I apologize if I should have posted this in the custom firmware thread.

mctubster   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by mctubster » Sep 25 2019 8:20pm

CatfishMan wrote:
Sep 25 2019 6:35pm
So I just finished putting together my TSDZ2 kit, and I'm having a problem where the motor won't engage via throttle or PAS. I know there is juice because walk assist mode works. Motor/850C display are flashed with the open source custom firmware. Pretty sure everything is hooked up correctly (I think it would be pretty hard to get that wrong given the connectors and for right now I just have the minimum hooked up). I'm using the 52v em3ev Jumbo Shark battery.

Wondering if I have something set up wrong in the configuration? I apologize if I should have posted this in the custom firmware thread.
What version (files) have you flashed?
Is the display working?
Was it working OK before you flashed?

casainho   1.21 GW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by casainho » Sep 26 2019 5:02am

There is a new firmware version for 850C displays - get it here: https://github.com/OpenSource-EBike-fir ... 50C_v0.4.1

Changelog:
- change code in the hope to solve the issue of white screen on some 850C displays. Seems some of them have different LCDs inside.

I was not able to test myself on the ones that have the white screen but that was tested by the other developers. The solution would not be possible without the help on the developers geeksville and r0mko as also the donors of the 850C display with the issue.
Developer of the Flexible OpenSource firmware for EBike motor controllers (TSDZ2 and KT) and LCDs (KT-LCD3 and Bafang 850C color LCD).

If you like my work, please consider making a donation. I am being using the donations to buy needed resources for my developments. My paypal: casainho AT gmail.com.

CatfishMan   100 µW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by CatfishMan » Sep 26 2019 10:22am

mctubster wrote:
Sep 25 2019 8:20pm
What version (files) have you flashed?
Is the display working?
Was it working OK before you flashed?
Thanks. I actually figured out my problem - I didn't set the temperature section to 'Throttle'. I'm not using a temperature sensor so when I saw that as disabled I figured I was good to go. Now just trying to figure out the most efficient config options. One issue I'm having is I connected the lights (Roxim) and they just continuously flash. Is there a way to get them to just stay on?

h27   10 mW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by h27 » Sep 26 2019 2:32pm

casainho wrote:
Sep 26 2019 5:02am
There is a new firmware version for 850C displays - get it here: https://github.com/OpenSource-EBike-fir ... 50C_v0.4.1

Changelog:
- change code in the hope to solve the issue of white screen on some 850C displays. Seems some of them have different LCDs inside.

I was not able to test myself on the ones that have the white screen but that was tested by the other developers. The solution would not be possible without the help on the developers geeksville and r0mko as also the donors of the 850C display with the issue.
I seem to have a very wicked display... I could install the new version and it resolved the white screen issue (thanks to all the developers!). But the result was a mirrored screen. Any solutions or ideas what I could do?

romelec   10 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by romelec » Sep 27 2019 3:59am

CatfishMan wrote:
Sep 26 2019 10:22am
One issue I'm having is I connected the lights (Roxim) and they just continuously flash. Is there a way to get them to just stay on?
What is its power requirement ? The 6v supply is limited to 0.4A, so only 2.4w.
If your light need more, the chip could go in overcurrent protection and make the on/off cycles.

mittkonto   10 mW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by mittkonto » Sep 27 2019 4:23am

Speaking of which...


Anyone got a tiny relay(48v) to recommend?

RicMcK   1 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by RicMcK » Sep 27 2019 8:49am

mittkonto wrote:
Sep 27 2019 4:23am
Speaking of which...


Anyone got a tiny relay(48v) to recommend?
I put a small voltage step down between my 48v battery and my 1.4A led headlight. The step-down fit inside the battery mounting bracket
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Rick Seattle WA

sidmodi   1 mW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by sidmodi » Sep 27 2019 12:44pm

Hello,

I have crossed 1500km with my TSDZ2 + OSF combination on a Trek FX 7.2 Hybrid (2015) and am absolutely loving it. I have, however, throughout the whole time, had one issue that I cannot seem to fix. Whenever I increase the human torque and start pedaling hard, I hear a 'clicking' sound coming from the right side of the bike. It seems like a metallic sound and only happens when I press hard on the right pedal. If I press hard for multiple cycles, the sound is regular and periodic. It almost feels like a creaking sound. I will try to get a video next time but in the meantime, does anyone have any ideas? I have the motor secured on both mounting points - bottom bracket and the additional mounting plate as well; it seems unlikely that the sound is being caused by the entire motor moving and pressing into the frame or something. I know that there is an offset on the stock crank that makes the left and right side asymmetrical. Could that be a possible source of problems? Any help would be appreciated!

Thank you,
Sid

RicMcK   1 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by RicMcK » Sep 27 2019 1:02pm

sidmodi wrote:
Sep 27 2019 12:44pm
Hello,

I have crossed 1500km with my TSDZ2 + OSF combination on a Trek FX 7.2 Hybrid (2015) and am absolutely loving it. I have, however, throughout the whole time, had one issue that I cannot seem to fix. Whenever I increase the human torque and start pedaling hard, I hear a 'clicking' sound coming from the right side of the bike. It seems like a metallic sound and only happens when I press hard on the right pedal. If I press hard for multiple cycles, the sound is regular and periodic. It almost feels like a creaking sound. I will try to get a video next time but in the meantime, does anyone have any ideas? I have the motor secured on both mounting points - bottom bracket and the additional mounting plate as well; it seems unlikely that the sound is being caused by the entire motor moving and pressing into the frame or something. I know that there is an offset on the stock crank that makes the left and right side asymmetrical. Could that be a possible source of problems? Any help would be appreciated!

Thank you,
Sid
A loose crank arm? Try removing it and regreasing it.
Rick Seattle WA

dameri   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by dameri » Sep 27 2019 1:48pm

Chainring also can hit the bolts and make clicking sound.
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Aquakitty   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Aquakitty » Sep 27 2019 2:24pm

sidmodi wrote:
Sep 27 2019 12:44pm
Hello,

I have crossed 1500km with my TSDZ2 + OSF combination on a Trek FX 7.2 Hybrid (2015) and am absolutely loving it. I have, however, throughout the whole time, had one issue that I cannot seem to fix. Whenever I increase the human torque and start pedaling hard, I hear a 'clicking' sound coming from the right side of the bike. It seems like a metallic sound and only happens when I press hard on the right pedal. If I press hard for multiple cycles, the sound is regular and periodic. It almost feels like a creaking sound. I will try to get a video next time but in the meantime, does anyone have any ideas? I have the motor secured on both mounting points - bottom bracket and the additional mounting plate as well; it seems unlikely that the sound is being caused by the entire motor moving and pressing into the frame or something. I know that there is an offset on the stock crank that makes the left and right side asymmetrical. Could that be a possible source of problems? Any help would be appreciated!

Thank you,
Sid
Another idea, possibly bearings in your pedal. Very common for them to click when they blow. If your pedals feel too easy to turn it could be it.

To the corrosion person, that's what happens when you overheat a motor, the "white powder". That would also cause the power loss. Only solution is a new motor (you can buy just the motor which is cheaper).
Rans Enduro Sport w/Sturmey-Archer XFRD8, TSDZ2 open source mod 48v
GT Verb Comp f/s TSDZ2 open source 48v
Diadora Ampio bargain f/s TSDZ2 48v
2020 Diamant 247 belt drive 1000w 9C 48v
Hardtail made from random bits I had laying around, ginormous old Marzocchi fork, BBS02

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