New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

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manoz85   1 mW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by manoz85 » Nov 20 2019 1:54pm

LeftCoastNurd wrote:
Nov 20 2019 12:31pm
manoz85 wrote:
Nov 20 2019 11:19am

No I can't hear it. I was trying several times earlier and I heard it maybe one or twice but nothing now. I replaced the blue gear with a new brass one.

What I'm wondering about still is why is there so much flex in the cranks. If I put the front brake on I can move them several centimetres when I put my foot on them
Maybe the ratchet clutch thing is broken?.
Could be, am working on my normal bikes at the mo. When I get home I can take off the drive side crank, chainring and dustcover and then run the walk mode and see what happens? I'm assuming that's how I check the clutch is gone?

obcd   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by obcd » Nov 20 2019 5:59pm

Isn't that clutch between the pedals and the motor / chain wheel axe?
So, if it's broken, it would mean that you can't pedal anymore as the pedals would rotate idle.
Obviously, you wouldn't be able to generate torque anymore either.
Opening the motor likely will reveal the issue.

manoz85   1 mW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by manoz85 » Nov 20 2019 8:25pm

obcd wrote:
Nov 20 2019 5:59pm
Isn't that clutch between the pedals and the motor / chain wheel axe?
So, if it's broken, it would mean that you can't pedal anymore as the pedals would rotate idle.
Obviously, you wouldn't be able to generate torque anymore either.
Opening the motor likely will reveal the issue.
Ah yeah that's true, why if I open up the main bit and take out the motor with all the wires still attached then run walk mode and see what happens? When I put walk mode on there is a click and a whirr but chainring doesn't move. Could be the shaft that the nylon/brass gear goes onto? The one that drives the large tooth gear under the chainrings? Will have to check in the morning.

Any danger in taking out the motor with the wires attached and holding it in my hand as I engage walk mode?
Last edited by manoz85 on Nov 20 2019 9:03pm, edited 1 time in total.

LeftCoastNurd   1 mW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by LeftCoastNurd » Nov 20 2019 8:50pm

manoz85 wrote:
Nov 20 2019 8:25pm
Ah yeah that's true, why if I open up the main bit and take out the motor with all the wires still attached then run walk mode and see what happens? When I put walk mode on there is a click and a white but chainring doesn't move. Could be the shaft that the nylon/brass gear goes onto? The one that drives the large tooth gear under the chainrings? Will have to check in the morning.

Any danger in taking out the motor with the wires attached and holding it in my hand as I engage walk mode?
48V DC can give you a bit of a zing of a shock, so I'd be careful not to be touching any wires while you do that. Now, I dunno if there's enough slack in the wires to remove the motor without first disconnecting it.


edit: oops, at the motor, its probably 3 or 4 phase AC, still, the shock potential is pretty strong.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by famichiki » Nov 21 2019 12:26am

mctubster wrote:
Nov 06 2019 10:18pm
I have been obsessing over Q Factor for some time now. I bought some replacement cranks and measured against the bundled TSDZ2 cranks. Here are the results for my bike with bottom bracket width 70mm.

Original TSDZ2 crank arms (edited to make clearer)
206mm (offset 26mm to the right)
I can't figure out how these end up being offset so much to the right. Looking at the dimensions diagram, I calculate 69.8mm to the left and 80.2mm to the right when used with a 68mm bottom bracket. This makes only 10.4mm offset to the right. Do both factory cranks arms have equal offset?
Attachments
dimensions.png
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LeftCoastNurd   1 mW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by LeftCoastNurd » Nov 21 2019 2:21am

famichiki wrote:
Nov 21 2019 12:26am
I can't figure out how these end up being offset so much to the right. Looking at the dimensions diagram, I calculate 69.8mm to the left and 80.2mm to the right when used with a 68mm bottom bracket. This makes only 10.4mm offset to the right. Do both factory cranks arms have equal offset?
indeed, the stock arms are symmetric, and for an old peddler like me, I kept missing the toeclip on the drive/right side on my last build on my brothers 1999 Trek 6000 hard tail mountain bike, it felt weird. The "Q" was way off. eco-bikes has a flat right crank option, my next build, thats what I'm planning on.

obcd   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by obcd » Nov 21 2019 4:47am

I would disconnect motor and battery, take the motor out and reconnect it afterwards. Next you can connect the battery and do the test. The phase wires are isolated, but I would avoid touching the connection screws during test. It's not a deadly voltage, but you can damage things pulling your hand away when you feel the current. A bit of isolation tape can do miracles to prevent touching stuff.

RDJEHV   1 µW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by RDJEHV » Nov 21 2019 10:18am

I just loaded the bootloader/firmware to the sw102 and on the tsdz2.
Then connected the battery, brake and display to the tsdz2 following the instructions on the wiki.

During first power on the screen shows 'error 30' after a few seconds.
I did not have time to troubleshoot the connections yet, anyone know the logic behind this error?

manoz85   1 mW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by manoz85 » Nov 21 2019 11:35am

obcd wrote:
Nov 21 2019 4:47am
I would disconnect motor and battery, take the motor out and reconnect it afterwards. Next you can connect the battery and do the test. The phase wires are isolated, but I would avoid touching the connection screws during test. It's not a deadly voltage, but you can damage things pulling your hand away when you feel the current. A bit of isolation tape can do miracles to prevent touching stuff.
Opened the motor and it turns out had put the 5 pin connector in the wrong way round which is strange since I thought it went in only one way. Put it back together and the walk mode now works but not still not getting any assistance. The cranks are still springy though. Least I know the battery and motor work. So I'm guessing it's the torque sensor?

Rothar1   1 µW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Rothar1 » Nov 21 2019 1:23pm

windburner wrote:
Nov 20 2019 1:40pm
(If that was all you wanted to know, sorry for the wordy remainder.)
No need to apologize. I'd call it detailed,useful and thorough rather than wordy. :D Thank you.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by hego » Nov 21 2019 2:27pm

phm2000 wrote:
Nov 18 2019 2:27pm
hego wrote:
Nov 18 2019 12:17pm
The torque sensor is death again.Is the second time!!!

The coils lost their antifriction tape.Is destroyed.

May be the bad chain line make a lateral force and bend the sensor.The three little springs can´t controller the gap between the coils.I find the movable sensor coil (and chainring) too deepset/sunken.It moved/shift in time and use.

Anyone with similar experience?

Because is the second time, I buy a new motor.The old motor will be a spare parts.

Cheers
How many kilometers did you do before torque sensor destroyed ?
My torque sensor was destroyed after 20 kilometers ! Second one has 50 kilometer, I hope it will continue many years...
The first sensor was bad assembly by me...too deep.Snap destruction.

The second sensor was correct assembly: the surfaces of the "attac cog" and final trasmision gear-ring were on line.Plain.Is the indirect reference for enought coil gap.

it work well for 300 km @....but the "final gear ring" deep about 3mm.Result: no gap for the coils.The chainring eat the plastic cover too.

Cause: The needle bearing of the sensor (and 6902-2RS too) sink this 3mm.I think we need use a blocker fluid like loctite 503 or Nural50 for fix the bearings.The factory motors haven´t a epidemic.I suppose the original motors use this system: a blocker fluid.Any lateral movement of the sensor.

I will try an other simple solution: a instalation of a pipe 28mm (diameter) between the link bearing 6902-2RS and link seal.To blocker the harmfull displacement of the axe to link.I must calculate the lenght (when the cogs superfaces are on line) .A usually seatpost of 27.2mm can work.

Cheers

casainho   1.21 GW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by casainho » Nov 21 2019 3:12pm

I am preparing a new version of firmware for 850C display. We can see the yellow and red zones on the graph as also the variables shown numerically on the 4 fields at the center, change the color from fading from regular white color to yellow and then to red.

For instance, the motor stops assisting at around cadence of 92 RPM, so on graph we can see that as also on the numeric field:
Image

The motor temperature, on the yellow zone the motor power output is being limited and stops once it hits the red zone:
Image
- TSDZ2 FAQ: issues and repairs, etc
- TSDZ2 OpenSource firmware

Developer of the Flexible OpenSource firmware for EBikes: TSDZ2 mid drive motor, KT motor controllers and displays: Bafang 850C color, SW102 Bluetooth and KT-LCD3.

If you like my work, please consider making a donation. I am being using the donations to buy needed resources for my developments. My paypal: casainho AT gmail.com.

manoz85   1 mW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by manoz85 » Nov 21 2019 4:14pm

I've ordered a new torque sensor, is there a guide to install it?
One of the posts mentions lateral force due to bad chain line, maybe this is my problem too. I only get good chain line through the smaller cogs on the cassette but lately I have been favouring my own power and using the bigger cogs instead. There is some play in the chainring when peddling. Would getting a BCD adapter and higher quality and thicker chainring help?

casainho   1.21 GW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by casainho » Nov 21 2019 4:28pm

manoz85 wrote:
Nov 21 2019 4:14pm
I've ordered a new torque sensor, is there a guide to install it?
One of the posts mentions lateral force due to bad chain line, maybe this is my problem too. I only get good chain line through the smaller cogs on the cassette but lately I have been favouring my own power and using the bigger cogs instead. There is some play in the chainring when peddling. Would getting a BCD adapter and higher quality and thicker chainring help?
The wiki has some notes, see the page about calibration of torque sensor.

I had the PAS sensor being sanded until it failed and I think is also an issue to to axle play, see here my notes and pictures:

https://github.com/OpenSource-EBike-fir ... and_repair

Also PSWPower sells some parts that seems to help the axle play.
- TSDZ2 FAQ: issues and repairs, etc
- TSDZ2 OpenSource firmware

Developer of the Flexible OpenSource firmware for EBikes: TSDZ2 mid drive motor, KT motor controllers and displays: Bafang 850C color, SW102 Bluetooth and KT-LCD3.

If you like my work, please consider making a donation. I am being using the donations to buy needed resources for my developments. My paypal: casainho AT gmail.com.

manoz85   1 mW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by manoz85 » Nov 21 2019 5:37pm

casainho wrote:
Nov 21 2019 4:28pm
manoz85 wrote:
Nov 21 2019 4:14pm
I've ordered a new torque sensor, is there a guide to install it?
One of the posts mentions lateral force due to bad chain line, maybe this is my problem too. I only get good chain line through the smaller cogs on the cassette but lately I have been favouring my own power and using the bigger cogs instead. There is some play in the chainring when peddling. Would getting a BCD adapter and higher quality and thicker chainring help?
The wiki has some notes, see the page about calibration of torque sensor.

I had the PAS sensor being sanded until it failed and I think is also an issue to to axle play, see here my notes and pictures:

https://github.com/OpenSource-EBike-fir ... and_repair

Also PSWPower sells some parts that seems to help the axle play.
Thank you for the link, went on pswpower website too and the found the axle parts you speak of. The video showing the problem doesn't exist anymore however. Looked at the manual and it seems confusing. When I took apart the axle on my motor there is a rubber cover, a circlip, a wavy piece of metal and then the bearing. I take it that the wavy piece of metal has to replaced by the gold ring so the bearing doesn't move around so much but the manual seems to show the opposite?

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eyebyesickle   10 kW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by eyebyesickle » Nov 22 2019 12:18am

manoz85 wrote:
Nov 21 2019 5:37pm
casainho wrote:
Nov 21 2019 4:28pm
manoz85 wrote:
Nov 21 2019 4:14pm
I've ordered a new torque sensor, is there a guide to install it?
One of the posts mentions lateral force due to bad chain line, maybe this is my problem too. I only get good chain line through the smaller cogs on the cassette but lately I have been favouring my own power and using the bigger cogs instead. There is some play in the chainring when peddling. Would getting a BCD adapter and higher quality and thicker chainring help?
The wiki has some notes, see the page about calibration of torque sensor.

I had the PAS sensor being sanded until it failed and I think is also an issue to to axle play, see here my notes and pictures:

https://github.com/OpenSource-EBike-fir ... and_repair

Also PSWPower sells some parts that seems to help the axle play.
Thank you for the link, went on pswpower website too and the found the axle parts you speak of. The video showing the problem doesn't exist anymore however. Looked at the manual and it seems confusing. When I took apart the axle on my motor there is a rubber cover, a circlip, a wavy piece of metal and then the bearing. I take it that the wavy piece of metal has to replaced by the gold ring so the bearing doesn't move around so much but the manual seems to show the opposite?
I think the factory manual...uh, leaved a bit to be desired. I modified it, and soon will update again with more pictures depicting my additional/alternate process so you don't damage the gasket at all. I will then post it as an article, but for now, here is a link to a slightly improved document to clarify the process. Also, I personally think you can just buy some 22mm x 16mm x XXmm (as thin as possible) washers instead of getting the extra parts that you don't need. You should be able to get the washers for less, and much quicker than ordering them from China.

Here is the link:

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1lQiAJ ... _2MKYS55JN

manoz85   1 mW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by manoz85 » Nov 22 2019 12:30am

eyebyesickle wrote:
Nov 22 2019 12:18am
manoz85 wrote:
Nov 21 2019 5:37pm
casainho wrote:
Nov 21 2019 4:28pm
manoz85 wrote:
Nov 21 2019 4:14pm
I've ordered a new torque sensor, is there a guide to install it?
One of the posts mentions lateral force due to bad chain line, maybe this is my problem too. I only get good chain line through the smaller cogs on the cassette but lately I have been favouring my own power and using the bigger cogs instead. There is some play in the chainring when peddling. Would getting a BCD adapter and higher quality and thicker chainring help?
The wiki has some notes, see the page about calibration of torque sensor.

I had the PAS sensor being sanded until it failed and I think is also an issue to to axle play, see here my notes and pictures:

https://github.com/OpenSource-EBike-fir ... and_repair

Also PSWPower sells some parts that seems to help the axle play.
Thank you for the link, went on pswpower website too and the found the axle parts you speak of. The video showing the problem doesn't exist anymore however. Looked at the manual and it seems confusing. When I took apart the axle on my motor there is a rubber cover, a circlip, a wavy piece of metal and then the bearing. I take it that the wavy piece of metal has to replaced by the gold ring so the bearing doesn't move around so much but the manual seems to show the opposite?
I think the factory manual...uh, leaved a bit to be desired. I modified it, and soon will update again with more pictures depicting my additional/alternate process so you don't damage the gasket at all. I will then post it as an article, but for now, here is a link to a slightly improved document to clarify the process. Also, I personally think you can just buy some 22mm x 16mm x XXmm (as thin as possible) washers instead of getting the extra parts that you don't need. You should be able to get the washers for less, and much quicker than ordering them from China.

Here is the link:

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1lQiAJ ... _2MKYS55JN
Thank you, I found this place in the UK that sells them?
https://www.accu.co.uk/en/704-shim-wash ... derway=asc

Could buy a few of each size, .5mm, .2mm and .1mm?

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eyebyesickle   10 kW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by eyebyesickle » Nov 22 2019 12:54am

manoz85 wrote:
Nov 22 2019 12:30am
eyebyesickle wrote:
Nov 22 2019 12:18am
manoz85 wrote:
Nov 21 2019 5:37pm
casainho wrote:
Nov 21 2019 4:28pm

The wiki has some notes, see the page about calibration of torque sensor.

I had the PAS sensor being sanded until it failed and I think is also an issue to to axle play, see here my notes and pictures:

https://github.com/OpenSource-EBike-fir ... and_repair

Also PSWPower sells some parts that seems to help the axle play.
Thank you for the link, went on pswpower website too and the found the axle parts you speak of. The video showing the problem doesn't exist anymore however. Looked at the manual and it seems confusing. When I took apart the axle on my motor there is a rubber cover, a circlip, a wavy piece of metal and then the bearing. I take it that the wavy piece of metal has to replaced by the gold ring so the bearing doesn't move around so much but the manual seems to show the opposite?
I think the factory manual...uh, leaved a bit to be desired. I modified it, and soon will update again with more pictures depicting my additional/alternate process so you don't damage the gasket at all. I will then post it as an article, but for now, here is a link to a slightly improved document to clarify the process. Also, I personally think you can just buy some 22mm x 16mm x XXmm (as thin as possible) washers instead of getting the extra parts that you don't need. You should be able to get the washers for less, and much quicker than ordering them from China.

Here is the link:

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1lQiAJ ... _2MKYS55JN
Thank you, I found this place in the UK that sells them?
https://www.accu.co.uk/en/704-shim-wash ... derway=asc

Could buy a few of each size, .5mm, .2mm and .1mm?

Nice. Much cheaper and quicker for you.

The stock flat gold washers are .3mm, FYI... I'd go for a couple .2 a a few .1 personally... Or just a few .1... They will allow the tightest fit.

Also, FYI, if you take off the spider/chain ring and try to stack some behind that circlip, it's actually best, that will pull the axle in, to where the internal splines engage fully, and will really help to best prevent any slight wobble as well (even though the wobble also comes from the clutch/bearing)... putting them in the non drive side helps too, and may be necessary, but if you can cram them in the drive side behind the chain ring, it's better. Just my recommendation!

LeftCoastNurd   1 mW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by LeftCoastNurd » Nov 22 2019 1:28am

eyebyesickle wrote:
Nov 22 2019 12:18am
I think the factory manual...uh, leaved a bit to be desired. I modified it, and soon will update again with more pictures depicting my additional/alternate process so you don't damage the gasket at all. I will then post it as an article, but for now, here is a link to a slightly improved document to clarify the process. Also, I personally think you can just buy some 22mm x 16mm x XXmm (as thin as possible) washers instead of getting the extra parts that you don't need. You should be able to get the washers for less, and much quicker than ordering them from China.

Here is the link:

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1lQiAJ ... _2MKYS55JN
hah, I've 'read' that factory manual, its beyond awful... classic chinglish barely adequate documentation. I haven't taken one apart yet (so far, I've installed exactly one tsdz2 on my brother's bike, and rode it about 50 miles while testing, and its now 2 hours away at his place).

yeah, it would be *awesome* if you could do a eco-ebike version of the service manual :bigthumb:

hetm4n   1 mW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by hetm4n » Nov 22 2019 4:58am

when can we expect software 0.20 on sw102 and the possibility of downloading without disassembly?

casainho   1.21 GW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by casainho » Nov 22 2019 5:03am

hetm4n wrote:
Nov 22 2019 4:58am
when can we expect software 0.20 on sw102 and the possibility of downloading without disassembly?
No sure as it depends on what geeksvile developer develop on next days. You see, I guess this is not the priority on his life but he is developing fast and is very experienced.
- TSDZ2 FAQ: issues and repairs, etc
- TSDZ2 OpenSource firmware

Developer of the Flexible OpenSource firmware for EBikes: TSDZ2 mid drive motor, KT motor controllers and displays: Bafang 850C color, SW102 Bluetooth and KT-LCD3.

If you like my work, please consider making a donation. I am being using the donations to buy needed resources for my developments. My paypal: casainho AT gmail.com.

manoz85   1 mW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by manoz85 » Nov 22 2019 9:21am

eyebyesickle wrote:
Nov 22 2019 12:54am
manoz85 wrote:
Nov 22 2019 12:30am
eyebyesickle wrote:
Nov 22 2019 12:18am
manoz85 wrote:
Nov 21 2019 5:37pm


Thank you for the link, went on pswpower website too and the found the axle parts you speak of. The video showing the problem doesn't exist anymore however. Looked at the manual and it seems confusing. When I took apart the axle on my motor there is a rubber cover, a circlip, a wavy piece of metal and then the bearing. I take it that the wavy piece of metal has to replaced by the gold ring so the bearing doesn't move around so much but the manual seems to show the opposite?
I think the factory manual...uh, leaved a bit to be desired. I modified it, and soon will update again with more pictures depicting my additional/alternate process so you don't damage the gasket at all. I will then post it as an article, but for now, here is a link to a slightly improved document to clarify the process. Also, I personally think you can just buy some 22mm x 16mm x XXmm (as thin as possible) washers instead of getting the extra parts that you don't need. You should be able to get the washers for less, and much quicker than ordering them from China.

Here is the link:

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1lQiAJ ... _2MKYS55JN
Thank you, I found this place in the UK that sells them?
https://www.accu.co.uk/en/704-shim-wash ... derway=asc

Could buy a few of each size, .5mm, .2mm and .1mm?

Nice. Much cheaper and quicker for you.

The stock flat gold washers are .3mm, FYI... I'd go for a couple .2 a a few .1 personally... Or just a few .1... They will allow the tightest fit.

Also, FYI, if you take off the spider/chain ring and try to stack some behind that circlip, it's actually best, that will pull the axle in, to where the internal splines engage fully, and will really help to best prevent any slight wobble as well (even though the wobble also comes from the clutch/bearing)... putting them in the non drive side helps too, and may be necessary, but if you can cram them in the drive side behind the chain ring, it's better. Just my recommendation!
My motor didn't come with gold washers, neither did my first one. I take it the gold washers are only in the older models with straight cut gears?

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Retrorockit » Nov 22 2019 10:24am

LeftCoastNurd wrote:
Nov 21 2019 2:21am
famichiki wrote:
Nov 21 2019 12:26am
I can't figure out how these end up being offset so much to the right. Looking at the dimensions diagram, I calculate 69.8mm to the left and 80.2mm to the right when used with a 68mm bottom bracket. This makes only 10.4mm offset to the right. Do both factory cranks arms have equal offset?
indeed, the stock arms are symmetric, and for an old peddler like me, I kept missing the toeclip on the drive/right side on my last build on my brothers 1999 Trek 6000 hard tail mountain bike, it felt weird. The "Q" was way off. eco-bikes has a flat right crank option, my next build, thats what I'm planning on.
I saw some photos of a newer shaft that was shorter on the right. I think they went to a single bearing setup instead of 2 bearings and a seal, or maybe use a sealed bearing instead of the seal?. But the square taper looked shorter also. IDK where the "Q" factor ended up. But you might have to mod some cranks to fit those versions.
https://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/v ... 1#p1481931

manoz85   1 mW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by manoz85 » Nov 22 2019 10:52am

So I decided to take the torque sensor out of my old motor to see how it removes and what it looks like. After taking off the big gear I used a soft hammer on the axle to persuade the torque sensor out. This is what I found
20191122_153433_resize_95.jpg
20191122_153433_resize_95.jpg (461.17 KiB) Viewed 2003 times

ImpulsePurchase   10 mW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by ImpulsePurchase » Nov 22 2019 11:20am

Wow. That's your problem then. First person who I have seen that has reported a crack in the torque sensor casing.

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