New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Discussions related to motors other than hub motors.
This includes R/C motors, botttom bracket, roller and geared drives.
hego   10 mW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by hego » Dec 14 2019 7:52am

Is posible the use of KT-LCD8H instead 850C?

It use the STM32F103RTC6.

Is similary the uController GD32F103RET6 - 850C display?

Retrorockit   100 W

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Re: Project and stable version 20 of Open source sofware

Post by Retrorockit » Dec 14 2019 10:14pm

bombusint wrote:
Dec 13 2019 5:35am
Retrorockit wrote:
Dec 10 2019 11:55pm
bombusint wrote:
Dec 09 2019 8:33pm
Greetings All
My next project is to convert a Kona Minute ‘barn find’.

The Minute is a mid sized cargo bike, no longer made but of a type becoming increasingly popular.
As an older person in my 70’s (how did that happen!!?), and having had a heart bypass, I am quite particular in my wants.

Please free to throw cold water on these ideas, there is a lot of experience out there when it comes to reinventing the wheel.

My last ebike was a 1000W rear hub drive. All very exciting, especially when the wheel decided to go along the kerb instead of up on to the bike path. I can personally verify that concrete is hard and old men do not bounce! End result was a badly smashed shoulder joint.

Being a cadence type bike the pedals were in effect a rotary throttle, and although it was excellent transport (1,700kms in 4 months), I did not get any exercise to speak of.

So I want/need lower cadence with high torque, with a throttle for start-offs.

Here in NZ it is hilly, and usually quite a distance between towns, so a high power motor and high capacity battery is required.

As it happens a triangular high capacity 52 volt battery from Luna Mate will fit into the frame just nicely.
http://luna-mate.com/triangle-52v-samsu ... -range-au/
Murphy’s Law (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murphy%27s_law) means that any unplanned stop will result in the bike being in a high gear with the pedal in an awkward position, so the throttle, along with a suitable IGH is highly desirable.


Shimano are releasing IGH’s designed for ebikes, so that looks promising, though ratio range does not look exceptional. They have also released the M355 hydraulic cut-out brake levers and calipers for bikes, though they are not available in all markets yet.


Schwalbe Big Apple tyres and maybe a suspension front fork swap should take care of ride. Smashed shoulder joints don’t like bumps.

Which brings me to the motor. Ebike motor de jour seems to be Bosch ,but I don’t really like them. Too noisy and they keep changing them. Plus I want more power.
. Bafang seems to have only OEM torque sensing mid motors.

So I circled round to TSDZ2. The claimed power seems a bit vague. Is it really 750W, or 750W peak, or RMS, or yeah right!

However, I really like the look of the open source software. In particular the ability to set max. power drain so that it can be safer to run the motor over a wider voltage range.

I also like the possibility of a hand throttle for start-off.

However, the threads warning of overheating concern me a bit, but it seems you can’t have internal temp. measurement and a hand throttle.

And ,now I see some comments that the TSDZ2 is not rugged enough for a cargo bike, though opinions seems to be mixed.

My current plans are to buy a kit from https://www.electrifybike.com/#/ with the open source V20 installed, once a stable version is released that can talk to the 850c controller.

That way the conversion can be ‘plug and play’ and I will have all the necessary cable and software to experiment on a spare motor controller I have for my 36V bike, and to learn how to flash the software for my standard bike.

So when will the stable version of V20 be available?

Perhaps we need some more donations to casainho? :)
Richard
I'm 66 years old and in the US. I ride urban South Florida which is one of the hairier places to ride a bike.
1- Adding a suspension fork will slow down the handling horribly. Not what's needed on a long cargo bike. Get the biggest tires you can fit and get the pressure to 30 psi or less if possible.
An upright riding position takes weight off of the hands/arms. Suspension seat post. Cane Creek Thudbuster LT is the classic, but the Suntour NCX get's the job done at 1/2 the price. If there are no disc brake tabs use the SA drum Brake.
2- I'm not a fan of hydraulic brakes on bicycles. Avid BB7 with big rotors, and sintered copper pads (on old DH racing setup) are simple reiable and DIY fixable. Working just fine on my 35mph road burner. Sintered pads can boil the fluid in some hydro brakes.
3- Shimano has a 5 speed Ebike hub. 1st gear is direct, all others are OD so gear accordingly. Only in Europe/Japan so far. The old Sturmey Archer 3 speed is tough as hell though. Drum or disc versions. Even some with 8/9 speed casette splines for more gear range if desired. Direct drive in 2nd gear.
IGH gets you a wide single speed chain. Wippermann 1E8 is beastly thick.
4- There is a fix for the derailer downshift issue. Shimano Rapid Rise 8-9 speed, aka "low normal".
the shifter lets out cable for downshifts. RD MD951, RD M960 derailers. Medium cage can be found for a 1x drivetrain in XTR group. There were others in XT,LX and Tourney groups. You will need a gripshift, SRAM Rocket or Attack work. SL RS40 is a Shimano Rapid Rise gripshift. Trigger shifters only allow 1 up 3 down shifting and RR is reverse pattern so forget that. The gripshift can dump all gears sitting still. The shift will happen when the bike drives forward ( the chain must be moving). Not as slick as an IGH, But real close. I'm running 50t Surly stainless steel ring x 11-40t Sunrace 8 speed casette. M951 mid cage, SL RS40 shifter.
5- TSDZ2? These are popular where 350W is the legal limit. Like the Bosch and Yamaha stuff. I'm in the US and 750W is the legal limit here. BBS02 and BBSHD are prefered, and TSDZ2 is almost unheard of. They have no cooling to speak of. The driveline was designed for 350w. Luck of the draw whether yours will break or not. Long walk home at 70 years old? In the hills? Pushing a cargo bike? Lots of broken parts in this thread. I have no idea what the inside of my 1500W BBSHD looks like. Riveted Wippermann 8SE chain hold up pretty well. Measure the stretch and lube often. Wheels up 3rd gear launches and 30+mph blasts in traffic are not unusual for me. Silent also. Think BBSHD is too expensive? The only thing that costs more than doing it right the first time, is doing it right the 2nd time. Luna can set you up with it all in one shot.
6- Exercise? I run PAS 1/5 unless there's a headwind or I'm climbing a bridge then 2/5. I find a speed that's easy, then shift up a gear and ride 3-4mph faster at the same assist. I get my exercise, and get where I'm going sooner.
I hope this gives you some ideas. If you use a Wippermann Connex link, carry a spare. I took me 6 months but I did manage to break one. Long walk etc.etc.
Thanks for your input.
Re front shock forks - the Kona Minute is a mid length cargo bike. More of an SUV than a truck. I know of one that was converted to a fat bike with front shocks very successfully.

Re Bafang vs TZDZ2 ... I have used cadence and torque sensing and for me torque sensing is a better experience.
The long wheelbase WILL make it less sensitive to an increase in fork height. Find out, or measure the axle to crown (lower headset bearing) dimension, and try to get a fork that's reasonably close to that. It may also be that cruising around in the country side it's less of an issue than dodging cars at close quarters. If you can get a bike shop to stick a fork in there to test ride it then you will know what to expect before you buy. I made a 1" increase in travel on one of my bikes and took it back off. 60mm to 85mm fork swap.

Retrorockit   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Retrorockit » Dec 15 2019 12:21pm

There is another factor that may help you get a suspension fork to work. A softly sprung fork will settle down into the travel when turning and this tightens up the steering geometry. Too soft and it will bottom out. My forks are softly sprung with an added elastomer stuck inside the coils to make it settle down in a corner at the point I want it to. But this makes it worse on rough trails by firming up the deep soft travel. My bikes transition from normal response to quick response when turning. Maybe with some tuning you can get from slow response back to normal response. My setup is softer than the tires riding straight ahead, but firmer than the tires cornering. Just some variable to consider when you try this. I can tell the difference 1 turn of the preload screw makes in the response due to the change in ride height.

I have no general preference between PAS, and cadence. It's the general reliability of the TSDZ2 vs the BBSHD that is glaringly different. At 750W it's suspect on the TSDZ2 both thermal and mechanical concerns. At 1500W it's not a concern on the BBSHD. The question for me isn't Cadence vs. PAS. It's PAS vs walking with a broken E bike. I own both. But TBH I've walked the BBSHD a couple times. Tire with broken glass, and a broken chain toolless link ( the "Missng Link" went missing). The TSDZ2 is a very small frame guest bike so I haven't ridden it much. For occasional light use only.
BTW with a reinforced tire like the Big Apple a piece of glass can be very hard to remove. it would be very easy to injure your hand trying to do it at night. Gloves and tools suitable for this would be good to have with you.

weldinpatt   1 µW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by weldinpatt » Dec 17 2019 8:17pm

I ride a trek equipped with a bosch cx / N380SE. while researching the Nuvinci i read an opinion that suggested it was most suitable to the rider with more mechanical understanding. tsdz2 retrofit kit, I suggest is too. Age 60, a trained engineer, I see many trainees, nice lads interested in the subject "but" heavy handed, often very heavy handed they are clumsy and break tools more often. Virtually impossible to train out the heavy hand , they make the poorest of tradesmen. They rag rather than renovate and seem never to develop an empathic sympathy for mechanical and material issues. Why is it always the same folk who rag the blue gear when for others it lasts a life ?
N380SE love it I replaced the shifter with a one turn 123 deg rotation as opposed to the 270 deg fist full, a lot stiffer but ideal to alter ratio I stop pedaling mometerilly and squeeze the shifter high or low / overdrive or underdrive, done, no gorilla antics if it takes loads of force your doing something wrong.
Living in Snowdonia. Reading articles about hill climbing, get into the correct gear in plenty of time, big lads keep arse on seat, little lads stand on the pedals, don't over do it pedaling like fury at the start, pace your self.
My kit (tsdz2) is 48v 250w 90Nm Woosh with throttle and brakes 8 pin display, 42t std chainring to sturmey archer X-RD5(w) 24t. The motor has baggs of torque and pulls well either throttle or pas or combination in any gear. Start pedaling , legs start to hurt , push thumb on throttle, it takes over and i stop pedaling, as the gradient gets steeper I hear the motor loose a little speed so i start to pedal again, adding my bit and woosh I am at the summit. Indeed tsdz2 seems to assist more over a wider band than the Bosch Cx though the Bosch's exhibits a refinement not found on the Tongsheng. Very different animals. A throttle for the Bosch , an open source firmware reprogramming for the Tongsheng , fun just speculating, init eh.

Gyuri89   10 µW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Gyuri89 » Dec 18 2019 6:13am

Hi Everyone

I'm new on the forum, however the tsdz2 is not new to me. I work as a bike messenger, so using my bike is pretty essential for me.
I also go with the opensource firmware. I love it. It had changed everything, a big thank you to Casainho! :wink: :D :D

I've met many issues emerging due to excess usage, I literally broke the torque sensor, I killed the sprag clutch back when I was using the original firmware etc..

Now I have a new issue that I can't identify. It happened yesterday when just all of a sudden the motor started having a noise like it'd be a four stroke one cylinder engine, obviously not that loud. The noise occurs only if the motor is engaged. I don't notice any loss of power. Under one pedal revolution I can hear so many hammering-like noise and it can be felt physically as well as it resonates through the crank, especially on the right side. I wanted to detect if it was one of the bearing so I tried to count the number of strokes under one revolution. Would've been nice to have a clue which part of the gearing it comes from but I couldn't count it, it is just too frequent. I took the motor apart to check the bearings and the gearing but I couldn't find any obvious sign of any abrasion or anything. I'm using the blue gear, it is still perfect as I'm rather careful with the acceleration, have no start boost neither. I've gone further and opened the motor but no visible wear found inside. The bearings are fine, the magnets are where they should be. In shorter/slower gear ratio it produces louder noise and vibration, also if I go uphill it is much loader, obviously I use lower gear then. On the other hand, when using longer/faster gear ratio it's even hard to notice anything, I guess the cadence is roughly the same.
...feels like one of the phases does not energize. I guess if it was the case the motor wouldn't run at all, but I'm not into electronics that much. No error code pops up.
Unfortunately have no throttle so I can't do tests on a bike stand.

I tried to find some info on the forum but haven't found any similar.
Could any of you help me? Have you ever met or heard a problem like this?

Thanks in advance.

obcd   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by obcd » Dec 18 2019 8:20am

Maybe you can set the motor to cadence only. In that mode, it ignores the torque sensor and can be tested with the real wheel lifted if you rotate the pedals. Another option is walk assist to get it running without torque and cadence.

casainho   1.21 GW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by casainho » Dec 18 2019 8:40am

Gyuri89 wrote:
Dec 18 2019 6:13am
In shorter/slower gear ratio it produces louder noise and vibration, also if I go uphill it is much loader, obviously I use lower gear then. On the other hand, when using longer/faster gear ratio it's even hard to notice anything, I guess the cadence is roughly the same.
...feels like one of the phases does not energize. I guess if it was the case the motor wouldn't run at all, but I'm not into electronics that much. No error code pops up.
Recently I had some issues hard to debug, one of them was hall sensors failing I think and while debugging I even did burn a motor:

Image

Image

Then I added an option on display 850C and firmware and we will be able to see the hall sensors state so when we slowly rotate the bicycle backwards, the motor rotates and we can see the hall sensors state changing and spot if there is a missing value meaning a problem. The latest 850C display firmware already supports this but the motor controller firmware was not released yet to support this, I hope to have a new version in 1 week or so.

In my case, I had to replace the motor as also the motor controller. I think the issue was on the motor controller because even after replacing for a new motor and checking and cleaning the hall sensors connectors, I kept having the same issue.
And yes, I tested using walk assist.

But maybe your issue is instead the Blue gear roller clutch slipping, see here on the wiki more information and the solution: https://github.com/OpenSource-EBike-fir ... h_slipping
- TSDZ2 FAQ: issues and repairs, etc
- TSDZ2 OpenSource firmware

Developer of the Flexible OpenSource firmware for EBikes: TSDZ2 mid drive motor, KT motor controllers and displays: Bafang 850C color, SW102 Bluetooth and KT-LCD3.

If you like my work, please consider making a donation. I am being using the donations to buy needed resources for my developments. My paypal: casainho AT gmail.com.

Retrorockit   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Retrorockit » Dec 19 2019 11:30am

weldinpatt wrote:
Dec 17 2019 8:17pm
I ride a trek equipped with a bosch cx / N380SE. while researching the Nuvinci i read an opinion that suggested it was most suitable to the rider with more mechanical understanding. tsdz2 retrofit kit, I suggest is too. Age 60, a trained engineer, I see many trainees, nice lads interested in the subject "but" heavy handed, often very heavy handed they are clumsy and break tools more often. Virtually impossible to train out the heavy hand , they make the poorest of tradesmen. They rag rather than renovate and seem never to develop an empathic sympathy for mechanical and material issues. Why is it always the same folk who rag the blue gear when for others it lasts a life ?
N380SE love it I replaced the shifter with a one turn 123 deg rotation as opposed to the 270 deg fist full, a lot stiffer but ideal to alter ratio I stop pedaling mometerilly and squeeze the shifter high or low / overdrive or underdrive, done, no gorilla antics if it takes loads of force your doing something wrong.
Living in Snowdonia. Reading articles about hill climbing, get into the correct gear in plenty of time, big lads keep arse on seat, little lads stand on the pedals, don't over do it pedaling like fury at the start, pace your self.
My kit (tsdz2) is 48v 250w 90Nm Woosh with throttle and brakes 8 pin display, 42t std chainring to sturmey archer X-RD5(w) 24t. The motor has baggs of torque and pulls well either throttle or pas or combination in any gear. Start pedaling , legs start to hurt , push thumb on throttle, it takes over and i stop pedaling, as the gradient gets steeper I hear the motor loose a little speed so i start to pedal again, adding my bit and woosh I am at the summit. Indeed tsdz2 seems to assist more over a wider band than the Bosch Cx though the Bosch's exhibits a refinement not found on the Tongsheng. Very different animals. A throttle for the Bosch , an open source firmware reprogramming for the Tongsheng , fun just speculating, init eh.
I agree with what you say about heavy handed mechanics. I learned by working in junkyards pulling rusted parts and breaking up cars for scrap. I also learned the difference in design between the cars that ended up there and the ones that were rarely seen. A thin timing chain here, a plstic VS metal gear there. I ended up working on heavy trucks. A business where downtime is very expensive. A business where full throttle continuos use is considered normal. Cost per mile is figured to the fraction of a cent.
The other side of the coin is engineers who blame the user or mechanics for their poor design and materials choices. When using bicycle parts for Electic powered vehicles that go beyond their original design limits the difference becomes glaringly obvious. My 1500W BBSHD is trouble free. Period. I call it real world engineering where the 99th person is taken into consideration.
Even used by me. When I weighed 240# I could stand on the Shimano 175mm cranks w/o worry of injuring myself or the bike. I'm pretty sure I could break my PAS only TSDZ2 any time I wanted to. I built it in a small frame with unskilled female riders in mind. A TSDZ2 is a capable 350W motor. You have your engineering degree, and your professional opinion. I have a BBSHD. To be fair aircraft design, race cars, and other engineering disciplines do require the kind of design and materials decisions that require the lighter touch and skilled care you refer to. I have a friend who owns a Ferrari shop. I love looking at the design and material decisions that were made. But for me it's definitely look don't touch.
Last edited by Retrorockit on Dec 19 2019 11:56am, edited 1 time in total.

casainho   1.21 GW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by casainho » Dec 19 2019 11:45am

Retrorockit wrote:
Dec 19 2019 11:30am
A TSDZ2 is a capable 350W motor.
That is not correct, it can handle up to 1000 watts, It always handle that when my 52V battery is fully charged.
- TSDZ2 FAQ: issues and repairs, etc
- TSDZ2 OpenSource firmware

Developer of the Flexible OpenSource firmware for EBikes: TSDZ2 mid drive motor, KT motor controllers and displays: Bafang 850C color, SW102 Bluetooth and KT-LCD3.

If you like my work, please consider making a donation. I am being using the donations to buy needed resources for my developments. My paypal: casainho AT gmail.com.

Gyuri89   10 µW

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Joined: Dec 17 2019 5:56pm

Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Gyuri89 » Dec 19 2019 12:11pm

casainho wrote:
Dec 18 2019 8:40am
Gyuri89 wrote:
Dec 18 2019 6:13am
In shorter/slower gear ratio it produces louder noise and vibration, also if I go uphill it is much loader, obviously I use lower gear then. On the other hand, when using longer/faster gear ratio it's even hard to notice anything, I guess the cadence is roughly the same.
...feels like one of the phases does not energize. I guess if it was the case the motor wouldn't run at all, but I'm not into electronics that much. No error code pops up.
Recently I had some issues hard to debug, one of them was hall sensors failing I think and while debugging I even did burn a motor:

Image

Image

Then I added an option on display 850C and firmware and we will be able to see the hall sensors state so when we slowly rotate the bicycle backwards, the motor rotates and we can see the hall sensors state changing and spot if there is a missing value meaning a problem. The latest 850C display firmware already supports this but the motor controller firmware was not released yet to support this, I hope to have a new version in 1 week or so.

In my case, I had to replace the motor as also the motor controller. I think the issue was on the motor controller because even after replacing for a new motor and checking and cleaning the hall sensors connectors, I kept having the same issue.
And yes, I tested using walk assist.

But maybe your issue is instead the Blue gear roller clutch slipping, see here on the wiki more information and the solution: https://github.com/OpenSource-EBike-fir ... h_slipping
Thanks for the suggestions! :)
So I tested it in walk assist mode as well as in cruising mode. I found that in walk assist mode there is no sign of the problem, the motor runs very smoothly, but if I sit on the bike in cruising mode I can feel/hear the strokes. Also noticed if I push the bike backwards it gets stuck periodically. I switched the power off I took of the chain and tried to turn the chain wheel back by hands, it stops always at the same spot (9times/a turn). When it stops it's very difficult to move it out of that position. It's not meant to work like that basically. Based on these facts I assume the problem is rather mechanical. It could be a sneaky invisible mechanical one as I didn't see anything when I opened the motor. :shock:
I found on the forum some of you had the same problem and replacing the blue gear solved it.

Somehow I don't experience slipping as you discussed it on the previous pages.

If it is the blue gear, one cause I can imagine is that the blue gear is out of its centre due to the damaged one way bearing.

Now retrieved the moment when I started to experience it. I was in a rush and wanted to reach a green light so it shifted up to higher assist level, I sped up and suddenly realised I had to stop after passing the lights. I braked hardly earlier than I would've stopped pedalling. So I only slowed down the rear wheel (not skidding it) and I was also triggering the motor as pedalling in a fairly high assist level. (This is a stupid thing I had as I also ride a fixed gear bike where you do something similar in order to slow the bike but doing it to the other direction, I got confused by the adrenaline..anyway, long story short..) I guess if I had skidded it to stop the turning of the crank totally, the controller would've cut the motor of. That could've been a better scenario. I have no break sensor neither to save me :?

I ordered the bearing to the blue gear, we'll see if it helps or not. Also thinking of ordering a new blue gear.

Gyuri89   10 µW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Gyuri89 » Dec 19 2019 12:11pm

casainho wrote:
Dec 18 2019 8:40am
Gyuri89 wrote:
Dec 18 2019 6:13am
In shorter/slower gear ratio it produces louder noise and vibration, also if I go uphill it is much loader, obviously I use lower gear then. On the other hand, when using longer/faster gear ratio it's even hard to notice anything, I guess the cadence is roughly the same.
...feels like one of the phases does not energize. I guess if it was the case the motor wouldn't run at all, but I'm not into electronics that much. No error code pops up.
Recently I had some issues hard to debug, one of them was hall sensors failing I think and while debugging I even did burn a motor:

Image

Image

Then I added an option on display 850C and firmware and we will be able to see the hall sensors state so when we slowly rotate the bicycle backwards, the motor rotates and we can see the hall sensors state changing and spot if there is a missing value meaning a problem. The latest 850C display firmware already supports this but the motor controller firmware was not released yet to support this, I hope to have a new version in 1 week or so.

In my case, I had to replace the motor as also the motor controller. I think the issue was on the motor controller because even after replacing for a new motor and checking and cleaning the hall sensors connectors, I kept having the same issue.
And yes, I tested using walk assist.

But maybe your issue is instead the Blue gear roller clutch slipping, see here on the wiki more information and the solution: https://github.com/OpenSource-EBike-fir ... h_slipping
Thanks for the suggestions! :)
So I tested it in walk assist mode as well as in cruising mode. I found that in walk assist mode there is no sign of the problem, the motor runs very smoothly, but if I sit on the bike in cruising mode I can feel/hear the strokes. Also noticed if I push the bike backwards it gets stuck periodically. I switched the power off I took of the chain and tried to turn the chain wheel back by hands, it stops always at the same spot (9times/a turn). When it stops it's very difficult to move it out of that position. It's not meant to work like that basically. Based on these facts I assume the problem is rather mechanical. It could be a sneaky invisible mechanical one as I didn't see anything when I opened the motor. :shock:
I found on the forum some of you had the same problem and replacing the blue gear solved it.

Somehow I don't experience slipping as you discussed it on the previous pages.

If it is the blue gear, one cause I can imagine is that the blue gear is out of its centre due to the damaged one way bearing.

Now retrieved the moment when I started to experience it. I was in a rush and wanted to reach a green light so it shifted up to higher assist level, I sped up and suddenly realised I had to stop after passing the lights. I braked hardly earlier than I would've stopped pedalling. So I only slowed down the rear wheel (not skidding it) and I was also triggering the motor as pedalling in a fairly high assist level. (This is a stupid thing I had as I also ride a fixed gear bike where you do something similar in order to slow the bike but doing it to the other direction, I got confused by the adrenaline..anyway, long story short..) I guess if I had skidded it to stop the turning of the crank totally, the controller would've cut the motor of. That could've been a better scenario. I have no break sensor neither to save me :?

I ordered the bearing to the blue gear, we'll see if it helps or not. Also thinking of ordering a new blue gear.

Retrorockit   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Retrorockit » Dec 19 2019 12:27pm

casainho wrote:
Dec 19 2019 11:45am
Retrorockit wrote:
Dec 19 2019 11:30am
A TSDZ2 is a capable 350W motor.
That is not correct, it can handle up to 1000 watts, It always handle that when my 52V battery is fully charged.
It doesn't have the cooling to produce that level of power continuosly.
A 454CID Chevy can make 435HP. For about 5 minutes. Hotrodders make 600HP+ for a 10 secong 1/4 mle run. When they put that same engine in a truck or motor home it was rated 230HP continuous. I've seen many of them fail at that level. In a sustained heavy headwind which is common where I ride I wouldn't trust TSDZ2 over about 400W which is almost enough really. The one way roller cluch in the rubber gear is a known cheap weak part, the rubber gear itself. Broken pedal shafts. Demagnetized motors from overheating. And what's with all that bearing niose? All of this is unheard of in the 1500W BBSHD forums. 2500W is the optional setting for those. Still haven't heard of any failures. Probably because you can't use 3.5HP on a bicycle for any length of time.
I'm not here to troll the thread about the limitations of the TSDZ2. I own one and I need to be prepared for what may happen to mine. But the limitations are obvious and real. It was designed to be sold in the 350W world E bike market against the Bosch, and Yamaha systems.
When compared to the other 1000W options it does not make a very good impression.
Last edited by Retrorockit on Dec 19 2019 12:43pm, edited 1 time in total.

casainho   1.21 GW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by casainho » Dec 19 2019 12:40pm

Retrorockit wrote:
Dec 19 2019 12:27pm
casainho wrote:
Dec 19 2019 11:45am
Retrorockit wrote:
Dec 19 2019 11:30am
A TSDZ2 is a capable 350W motor.
That is not correct, it can handle up to 1000 watts, It always handle that when my 52V battery is fully charged.
I own one and I need to be prepared for what may happen to mine. But the limitations are obvious and real. It was designed to be sold in the 350W world E bike market against the Bosch, and Yamaha systems.
Yes, it is the peak power of 1000 watts that can be used for like 10 minutes continuous or every time at startup to give a power boost. And there will be no issue at all since the firmware manages the motor max temperature.

And this compares with the Bafang motors you are referring?
- TSDZ2 FAQ: issues and repairs, etc
- TSDZ2 OpenSource firmware

Developer of the Flexible OpenSource firmware for EBikes: TSDZ2 mid drive motor, KT motor controllers and displays: Bafang 850C color, SW102 Bluetooth and KT-LCD3.

If you like my work, please consider making a donation. I am being using the donations to buy needed resources for my developments. My paypal: casainho AT gmail.com.

Retrorockit   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Retrorockit » Dec 19 2019 1:01pm

The only thing that limits the time I can make 1500W on my BBSHD is when the long range 17ah battery power drops off. I can use it any time for as long as I want, but range suffers horribly when I do that. For driveline testing it's full power runs until everything is sorted out. I usually do full power runs when my riding is almost over, and I know I have enough battery to get home easily. Then I'll intentionally run the batttery down before charging overnight. The Panasonic cells in mine favor long range over high amperage output. If I had the 2500W I would need a different fast output battery to support that. But the 8 speed MTB driveline is at it's limit already.

Waynemarlow   1 kW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Waynemarlow » Dec 19 2019 1:35pm

Retrorockit, BBSHD's are a different beast, there's courses for horses and why you are even trying to compare the two motors is beyond me.

I tried a BBS02, nice motor, riding experience as a bicycle was poor to average due to its power assist only with no torque sensing, although after much fiddling with the program it was OK ish. Didn't get to try its reliability as it was too powerful as a bicycle and not any where near powerful enough as a moped so moved it on.

If you want to run high power then the BBSHD is the biz, but you are here on the TSDZ2 thread, its a different motor in so many ways, you really need to think and talk only TSDZ2's, if you want a light weight, torque sensing engine that costs not a lot, parts are readily available, extremely easy to fit and seems to fill its niche market, extremely well.

Until Bafung makes a similar torque sensing motor at the same price and matches its serviceability, then I guess its your choice TSDZ2 or back to pedal power.

AZUR   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by AZUR » Dec 19 2019 3:58pm

casainho wrote:
Dec 18 2019 8:40am
Gyuri89 wrote:
Dec 18 2019 6:13am
In shorter/slower gear ratio it produces louder noise and vibration, also if I go uphill it is much loader, obviously I use lower gear then. On the other hand, when using longer/faster gear ratio it's even hard to notice anything, I guess the cadence is roughly the same.
...feels like one of the phases does not energize. I guess if it was the case the motor wouldn't run at all, but I'm not into electronics that much. No error code pops up.
Recently I had some issues hard to debug, one of them was hall sensors failing I think and while debugging I even did burn a motor:

Image

Image

Then I added an option on display 850C and firmware and we will be able to see the hall sensors state so when we slowly rotate the bicycle backwards, the motor rotates and we can see the hall sensors state changing and spot if there is a missing value meaning a problem. The latest 850C display firmware already supports this but the motor controller firmware was not released yet to support this, I hope to have a new version in 1 week or so.

In my case, I had to replace the motor as also the motor controller. I think the issue was on the motor controller because even after replacing for a new motor and checking and cleaning the hall sensors connectors, I kept having the same issue.
And yes, I tested using walk assist.

But maybe your issue is instead the Blue gear roller clutch slipping, see here on the wiki more information and the solution: https://github.com/OpenSource-EBike-fir ... h_slipping
Casainho,

Good to know we are going to have a new controller firmware version with new features.

Next week I will have my Assioma Favero pedals power meter.

I will compare the power with the TSDZ2.

Unfortunately we don´t have yet the total power, in one ride, to compare.

I will use Road and MTB pedal option.

Will this new version have the torque sensor calibration?

Regards

Retrorockit   100 W

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Posts: 110
Joined: Feb 08 2019 12:07pm

Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Retrorockit » Dec 19 2019 5:00pm

Waynemarlow wrote:
Dec 19 2019 1:35pm
Retrorockit, BBSHD's are a different beast, there's courses for horses and why you are even trying to compare the two motors is beyond me.

I tried a BBS02, nice motor, riding experience as a bicycle was poor to average due to its power assist only with no torque sensing, although after much fiddling with the program it was OK ish. Didn't get to try its reliability as it was too powerful as a bicycle and not any where near powerful enough as a moped so moved it on.

If you want to run high power then the BBSHD is the biz, but you are here on the TSDZ2 thread, its a different motor in so many ways, you really need to think and talk only TSDZ2's, if you want a light weight, torque sensing engine that costs not a lot, parts are readily available, extremely easy to fit and seems to fill its niche market, extremely well.

Until Bafung makes a similar torque sensing motor at the same price and matches its serviceability, then I guess its your choice TSDZ2 or back to pedal power.
caisanho asked how the 1000W TSDZ2 differed from the BBSHD.
I'm on this thread because I own a 750W TSDZ2. But here in the US 1500W isn't too much for a bike. The ability to run at 30+mPH is a safety issue when sharing the road with driver who aren't used to bicycle traffic at all. I bought the TSDZ2 because I thought TS stood for Torque Sensing, and expected it to be like my BAFANG.
It was the only PAS mid drive Luna sold, and they don't bother to offer it any more.
I will tell you this. The British, French, and Italian auto makers all failed in the US market and no longer exist here. FIAT bought their way back in when they purchased Chrysler. But not much interest that I see in what they're importing. The Germans, Swedes, and Japanese are all thriving because they knew something about building reliable products. TS is in the former, Bafang is in the latter category. In fact the Japanese raised the bar on reliability for everyone over here. At 1/2 the power of a BBSHD I see no reason why the TSDZ2 can't be as reliable and durable at it's own size and price point, and offer PAS. My only reliabilty issue with the BBSHD is that it spit out a Wippermann 8SE E bike chain. The Connex link wasn't up to it and I now rivet my chain.
Maybe in Europe it's the best choice available. The engineer who suggested taking it easy on the throttle, and people larger than the Chinese not stand on the cranks pretty much equals my statement that it's reliable up to 400W. Americans tend to have an MTB background, and Europeans more of a road bike sensibility. I'm sure that colors our expectations of what a bike should do.

Waynemarlow   1 kW

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Location: Bucks, England

Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Waynemarlow » Dec 19 2019 6:02pm

Retrorockit wrote:
Dec 19 2019 5:00pm
But here in the US 1500W isn't too much for a bike. The ability to run at 30+mPH is a safety issue when sharing the road with driver who aren't used to bicycle traffic at all.
.......
Americans tend to have an MTB background, and Europeans more of a road bike sensibility. I'm sure that colors our expectations of what a bike should do.
I suspect there maybe a bit of Americanism of everything is bigger, more powerful, more reliable, cheaper and just better than anything else in the world, if its in America, in your reply.

Are you sure you wouldn't be better with something like the https://www.ktm.com/gb/e-ride/freeride-e-xc/ or more like a bike https://lunacycle.com/sur-ron-x-bike-black-edition/ as a converted electric engined mtb is not going to do what you are asking it to do.

3wheels   1 µW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by 3wheels » Dec 19 2019 7:43pm

I have just joined the forum and I am hoping someone can help me with a technical question regarding the TSDS2 mid drive unit.

I ordered 3 units from China a while ago and have only just installed the second one now. All three were to be installed in "standard" bikes, all with 7 hub-gears and internal rear brake by Shimano.

The first installation went well and the rear brake works as it should with back-peddling, but with the last two units, the crank is freewheeling making the drive sprocket stationary and therefore I can not engage the brake.

Are there different models to suit de-railer gear systems? I presume that is what I have ended up with?

Does anyone have a quick fix for this problem?

casainho   1.21 GW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by casainho » Dec 19 2019 9:46pm

AZUR wrote:
Dec 19 2019 3:58pm
Good to know we are going to have a new controller firmware version with new features.

Next week I will have my Assioma Favero pedals power meter.

I will compare the power with the TSDZ2.

Unfortunately we don´t have yet the total power, in one ride, to compare.

I will use Road and MTB pedal option.

Will this new version have the torque sensor calibration?
The new version will have as main new feature the torque sensor full calibration. Would be great if then you can compare the human power measured in TSDZ2 with this calibration with that your new pedals power meter. And I think the best value to compare is on the instantaneous value... At least I can see a kind of stable value when I peddle. On my case, on rides of like 4 hours, I can start with 200 watts average but on the last hour I get tired and my average drops to 80 watts.

Only makes sense to make comparison when you make the full calibration of the torque sensor. And let's hope your torque sensor is in good shape and can measure up to your max weight.
- TSDZ2 FAQ: issues and repairs, etc
- TSDZ2 OpenSource firmware

Developer of the Flexible OpenSource firmware for EBikes: TSDZ2 mid drive motor, KT motor controllers and displays: Bafang 850C color, SW102 Bluetooth and KT-LCD3.

If you like my work, please consider making a donation. I am being using the donations to buy needed resources for my developments. My paypal: casainho AT gmail.com.

obcd   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by obcd » Dec 20 2019 8:02am

There are indeed 2 types of TDSZ2. One allows braking by rotating the pedals backwards, the other doesn't. The motor uses a special bearing that grips in one direction and freely rotates in the other to obtain the freewheel of the pedals. No idea what is used in the other model that allows braking.

Retrorockit   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Retrorockit » Dec 20 2019 10:18am

Waynemarlow wrote:
Dec 19 2019 6:02pm
Retrorockit wrote:
Dec 19 2019 5:00pm
But here in the US 1500W isn't too much for a bike. The ability to run at 30+mPH is a safety issue when sharing the road with driver who aren't used to bicycle traffic at all.
.......
Americans tend to have an MTB background, and Europeans more of a road bike sensibility. I'm sure that colors our expectations of what a bike should do.
I suspect there maybe a bit of Americanism of everything is bigger, more powerful, more reliable, cheaper and just better than anything else in the world, if its in America, in your reply.

Are you sure you wouldn't be better with something like the https://www.ktm.com/gb/e-ride/freeride-e-xc/ or more like a bike https://lunacycle.com/sur-ron-x-bike-black-edition/ as a converted electric engined mtb is not going to do what you are asking it to do.
Everything in America isn't better. Bigger usually. Bafang isn't made in USA, it's Chinese just like the TSDZ2. But they listen to criticism from American users,and updated the BBS02 to the BBSHD and now pretty much own the market here for conversions. Tong Sheng on the other hand ignores their customers with a take it or leave it attitude and it has cost them here. TS leves it to others to develop and refine their product, and offer fixes for it's weak areas. What Luna offers for the US 750W 28MPH legal limit is a detuned BBSHD. The size and weight isn't an issue for the MTB that they're going on.
The riding environment where I am is openly hostile to cyclists. I'm missing 12" of my back fender because some driver put his car in reverse for no apparent reason and floored it while I was crossing behind him thinking it was safer than in front. With a Coast Guard approved marine air horn blasting and the BBSHD at full throttle I barely made it. He didn't slow down at all. The MTB rear wheel got pushed sideways but it was OK otherwise. The driver didn't stop to see if I was alright, and the 3 drunken witnesses thought it was the funniest thing they'd ever seen. That sort of thing is not uncommon. He's just the only one who actually managed to hit me. The Motorcycle type bikes are not what's needed because then you're forced to ride in the road with these lunatics. In Europe it wouldn't make any difference because bicycles normally use the road anyway. A converted bike allows me to use the empty sidewalks around here instead of the 45mph (ignored) roads. The climate doesn't favor walking and pedestrians aren't an issue except in the city itself. Lack of any enforcement of the Ebike limits in most areas is also a factor. If you ride at the speed a bike would be going in the places bikes normally ride no one notices. If you're in the road and can keep up from a traffic light or speed limit on a side street it's not too bad either. The biggest benefit to an Ebike here is range, the ability to overcome headwinds, and avoid heat, stroke dehydration issues. There are photos further up this page of burnt motors that don't exist in the BBSHD forums. The BBSHD saved my life, a 750W TSDZ2 might have spit the rubber gear right then and been too slow in the first place to do any good. Here online you can make excuses for the TSDZ2, that doesn't work in the real world.
BTW as a ham fisted American mechanic I have made several posts here suggesting methods of improving the cooling of the TSDZ2 motor, while your European "engineer" makes excuses and blames the user. I'm pretty sure "hot air" won't solve the problem.

casainho   1.21 GW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by casainho » Dec 20 2019 11:13am

Retrorockit wrote:
Dec 20 2019 10:18am
The size and weight isn't an issue for the MTB that they're going on.
I think is pretty clear your explanations. Where I live, I also prefer to ride at 45 km/h on the street other wise would be dangerous because of the cars.

On the other side, with the same bicycle I go to do MTB on mountains and SIZE and WEIGHT are an issue!! As also it is the noise of the motor but TSDZ2 is good.

On streets I only ride at 45 km/h as it is around the max speed I can get with TSDZ2 with big tires, rear panniers and myself with 105 kgs. In future, I want to have a cargo bike and then I will need more than the TSDZ2 can give, then, I think I will need to jump to Bafang -- on that time I hope to have already wireless torque sensor paired with SW102 and with a motor controller running OpenSource firmware, all this because I want a torque sensor and not PAS as Bafang!!
- TSDZ2 FAQ: issues and repairs, etc
- TSDZ2 OpenSource firmware

Developer of the Flexible OpenSource firmware for EBikes: TSDZ2 mid drive motor, KT motor controllers and displays: Bafang 850C color, SW102 Bluetooth and KT-LCD3.

If you like my work, please consider making a donation. I am being using the donations to buy needed resources for my developments. My paypal: casainho AT gmail.com.

skestans   10 W

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Location: Luxembourg

Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by skestans » Dec 20 2019 2:01pm

Hi, I finally got all the parts to convert my bike, I'm very excited!

One little issue though: on both bicycles I'm planning to convert, the cables for the rear derailleur and the hydraulic disk brakes are routed under the bottom bracket with a plastic cable guide.

Now the hydraulic brake line I can probably move out of the way because it's not going through the guide. But the rear derailleur does, and so does the front derailleur (although I won't be needing this one anymore)

With the guide on, it's too tight for the TSDZ2 to slide in and fit the way it should. But I can't remove the guide either because I need the rear derailleur.

So, what do I do?

flufferty   100 mW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by flufferty » Dec 20 2019 2:30pm

skestans wrote:
Dec 20 2019 2:01pm
With the guide on, it's too tight for the TSDZ2 to slide in and fit the way it should. But I can't remove the guide either because I need the rear derailleur.
So, what do I do?
Replace the wire with full wire guide from the shifter, then route it above the bb-shell.

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