New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Discussions related to motors other than hub motors.
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ilu   1 mW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by ilu » Jan 16 2020 8:27am

Amberwolf, you are right. There is definetely some movement. The housing moves up and down, as I ride a lot offroad and with all the bumps and drops the motor probably moves a tiny bit down abd then back up by it's own torque. I tried to prevent this by clamping the bottom part of the chainstay bracket against a chain guard tab in the frame, but I can see now that it is not strong enough. I think I can come up with something more secure with some basic hardware store stuff. What I mean is to just clamp the motor between the top tube and a flat part between BB and chainstays.

dameri   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by dameri » Jan 16 2020 10:28am

Do this kind of bracket if it can fit in there. This is a picture of a casainho.
TSDZ2-full_suspension_bicycle-051.jpg
TSDZ2-full_suspension_bicycle-051.jpg (321.51 KiB) Viewed 2215 times

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izeman   10 GW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by izeman » Jan 16 2020 11:43am

That's how i did it, but i requires welding to the frame ;)

IMG_3005.jpg
IMG_3005.jpg (46.35 KiB) Viewed 2198 times

Waynemarlow   1 kW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Waynemarlow » Jan 17 2020 1:09pm

ilu wrote:
Jan 16 2020 8:27am
Amberwolf, you are right. There is definetely some movement. The housing moves up and down, as I ride a lot offroad and with all the bumps and drops the motor probably moves a tiny bit down abd then back up by it's own torque. I tried to prevent this by clamping the bottom part of the chainstay bracket against a chain guard tab in the frame, but I can see now that it is not strong enough. I think I can come up with something more secure with some basic hardware store stuff. What I mean is to just clamp the motor between the top tube and a flat part between BB and chainstays.
We have now 3 motors without any brackets to prevent rotation, all without any problems. Are you sure that the motor is sitting into the chain side of the BB correctly, it has a small taper on it to effectively lock the motor from rotation subject to getting enough torque on the big nut on the other side. Do check as the motor housing can be close to the bikes frame and some bikes need a spacer to push the motor out slightly, as the case won't allow the motor to fully pull into the BB.

The small mount on the non chain side is also really important to get it sitting right and needs to " shimmed " or a custom made spacer between it and the motor. If that is not correctly set then it will not allow the big nut to tension up properly. Best method is to tighten the big nut to say 3/4 torque with it in rough alignment, then measure and properly make exactly the right size spacer on a lathe or use the supplied spacers + washers to get as exact spacer as you can. Then back off the big nut, fit the spacers and semi tighten the bolts, tighten up the big nut and bolts progressively until you reach the right torque. The big nut is much tighter than you think and really you need to extend the supplied spanner to get enough torque on it.

andrea_104kg   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by andrea_104kg » Jan 17 2020 4:21pm

I would have some fear in advising you not to put an anti rotation bracket. I have seen many photos of split engines unfortunately.
Even pswpower has started selling only the "case" of the engine, obviously they break down otherwise it would not make sense to put that component on sale.

casainho   1.21 GW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by casainho » Jan 17 2020 6:22pm

Announcing the begin of a new development for TSDZ2:

OpenSource EBike app, for TSDZ2 and SW102 display

My wife and me, we were discussing the mobile app design. It is way easier to replicate what is already done on 850C. Here are the wireframes, showing a possible design. Everything is still in development, everything still can change:



My wife repository on Github: https://github.com/aleixonunes/eBikeOpenSource
- TSDZ2 FAQ: issues and repairs, etc
- TSDZ2 OpenSource firmware

Developer of the Flexible OpenSource firmware for EBikes: TSDZ2 mid drive motor, KT motor controllers and displays: Bafang 850C color, SW102 Bluetooth and KT-LCD3.

If you like my work, please consider making a donation. I am being using the donations to buy needed resources for my developments. My paypal: casainho AT gmail.com.

skestans   10 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by skestans » Jan 18 2020 4:21pm

Anyone using the tripwire brake sensor with hydraulic brakes? I quite like to keep my feet on the pedal at red lights with the brakes engaged so that I’m ready for the light. But I can’t do it without a sensor and he tripwire looks the most streamlined and doesn’t require swapping your levers.

knutselmaaster   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by knutselmaaster » Jan 18 2020 4:42pm

The magura ones are very streamlined and can be placed anywhere: viewtopic.php?t=34122

famichiki   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by famichiki » Jan 18 2020 10:21pm

Brlowe wrote:
Jan 15 2020 4:05pm
I just ordered my TSDZ2 motor setup from ECO-Cycles. I know this question is like asking how to walk but what battery is the best out there? I want one with a BMS that has Bluetooth to monitor the batteries from my phone and I want a well built battery that is going to last. I prefer a shark style on a rail mount for easy removal. I'm looking at batteries from EM3ev.com.

Sorry for the loaded question in advance. Also is there a better place to post this question?

Brandon
I did lots of research and purchased a 52V 17AH jumbo shark from EM3ev and couldn't be happier with their product or service. There are some videos around on YouTube showing their operations that will likely help convince you. Honest people making batteries that exceed expectations.

famichiki   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by famichiki » Jan 18 2020 10:27pm

Aside from all the discussion about torque sensor issues, has anyone ever experienced a faulty cadence sensor?

casainho   1.21 GW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by casainho » Jan 18 2020 10:57pm

famichiki wrote:
Jan 18 2020 10:27pm
Aside from all the discussion about torque sensor issues, has anyone ever experienced a faulty cadence sensor?
Yes, see the FAQ:
- TSDZ2 FAQ: issues and repairs, etc
- TSDZ2 OpenSource firmware

Developer of the Flexible OpenSource firmware for EBikes: TSDZ2 mid drive motor, KT motor controllers and displays: Bafang 850C color, SW102 Bluetooth and KT-LCD3.

If you like my work, please consider making a donation. I am being using the donations to buy needed resources for my developments. My paypal: casainho AT gmail.com.

famichiki   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by famichiki » Jan 19 2020 1:25am

casainho wrote:
Jan 18 2020 10:57pm
famichiki wrote:
Jan 18 2020 10:27pm
Aside from all the discussion about torque sensor issues, has anyone ever experienced a faulty cadence sensor?
Yes, see the FAQ:
Thanks, now I remember seeing that a while back. I've think I've narrowed the overrun cause down to the cadence sensor. Besides physical damage, are the sensors very responsive? Have you noticed any lag, noise or other unusual behaviour?

Brlowe   1 mW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Brlowe » Jan 21 2020 12:22am

famichiki wrote:
Jan 18 2020 10:21pm
I did lots of research and purchased a 52V 17AH jumbo shark from EM3ev and couldn't be happier with their product or service. There are some videos around on YouTube showing their operations that will likely help convince you. Honest people making batteries that exceed expectations.
I have been researching also and that was the one I was leaning toward. I ordered it today but with the Chinese New Year I will not see it until mid February at the soonest I think.

Next is a smart charger. Just looking for a good one to do 80,90 and 100% charges. I do not need the expensive programmable one.

famichiki   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by famichiki » Jan 21 2020 12:38am

Brlowe wrote:
Jan 21 2020 12:22am
Next is a smart charger. Just looking for a good one to do 80,90 and 100% charges. I do not need the expensive programmable one.
Did you see their 5A switchable 90-100% charger? It works well, but is a little larger than I anticipated and has a noticeable fan which may bother some people but I don't mind it. I really wanted the Cycle Satiator but that will have to wait.

sysrq   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by sysrq » Jan 21 2020 9:40am

sysrq wrote:
Jan 08 2020 9:10am
Does VLCD6 also turns the motor off after 5 minutes. Switched to Shimano Claris brake lever unit trigger shifters on a 42t/45t half-step gearing so there is no space (clearance) for the old XH18 on the left side anymore.
The one with the opensource firmware is a bit too obvious (big) for an ebike. Similar smaller ones should also work as well. As far as I understand if one is too lazy to program then buying preprogrammed controller or whole motor is the only option.
So far it seems like VLCD6 doesn't turn the motor off as long as it's registering some speed while testing at home.
Now thinking about adding some parallel tactile control button extentions on each side of the handlebar otherwise operating the front shifter with half-step gearing requires too much processing on one side.

Brlowe   1 mW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Brlowe » Jan 21 2020 10:48am

famichiki wrote:
Jan 21 2020 12:38am
Brlowe wrote:
Jan 21 2020 12:22am
Next is a smart charger. Just looking for a good one to do 80,90 and 100% charges. I do not need the expensive programmable one.
Did you see their 5A switchable 90-100% charger? It works well, but is a little larger than I anticipated and has a noticeable fan which may bother some people but I don't mind it. I really wanted the Cycle Satiator but that will have to wait.
I did see it but a want one to do 80% charges. 80% is storage level for a lipo battery. Should not let them sit higher or lower than that for any extended time. Been using lipo batteries in RC’s for a long time. Also if you do not need full range charging to lower levels helps to extend battery life but make sure you go 100% every few charges. So we will see how it goes.

skestans   10 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by skestans » Jan 21 2020 12:11pm

Brlowe wrote:
Jan 15 2020 4:05pm
I just ordered my TSDZ2 motor setup from ECO-Cycles. I know this question is like asking how to walk but what battery is the best out there? I want one with a BMS that has Bluetooth to monitor the batteries from my phone and I want a well built battery that is going to last. I prefer a shark style on a rail mount for easy removal. I'm looking at batteries from EM3ev.com.

Sorry for the loaded question in advance. Also is there a better place to post this question?

Brandon
em3ev are the best batteries around. Well built, and come with a bluetooth BMS. I use BMS Doctor on iOS (the app em3ev supplies is Android only)

I was also pleasantly surprised at how sturdy the mount is. I was expecting it to wiggle on my bike but it feels very well attached. Batter be, because the battery is 4.5kg.

Mike-P   100 mW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Mike-P » Jan 21 2020 12:56pm

Received my new torques sensor and the cabled part is of a different design

Original
Existing ts.jpg
Existing ts.jpg (95.1 KiB) Viewed 1650 times
As supplied (albeit without the springs - have raised the matter)
supplied torque sensor.jpg
supplied torque sensor.jpg (42.29 KiB) Viewed 1650 times
Note only two springs are shown in the suppliers photo and the wire connection is through a deep plastic moulding. I'm assuming if it now is just two springs they go next to the bearings and none anywhere near the plastic moulding.

Lubin   10 µW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Lubin » Jan 21 2020 7:41pm

The new firmware with the human and motor watt showed is a cool feature for learning. Thanks @Casainho and co. for all the work done.
I calibrated my torque sensor with fw 0.6.2.
However I sometime encountered issues while testing with the new calibration enabled (superman watt, and motor behaviour not ok).

The TSDZ2 torque sensor seems sensitive to temperature. I calibrated the sensor in house at 20 degC while outside temperature oscillates between 0 to 10deg.

On the graph attached are three calibration curves done at 20, 12 and 0 degC.
I fit my points to a proposed equation to check the parameters depending on temperature (see equation on graph legend)
TSDZ2_TorqueSensor_Left_Calibration_Temperature.png
TSDZ2_TorqueSensor_Left_Calibration_Temperature.png (56.48 KiB) Viewed 1601 times
Hope a good discussion to find the simplest solution (I guess the 8 bit mcu is quite loaded)...

Lubin

ilu   1 mW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by ilu » Jan 21 2020 9:35pm

Brlowe wrote:
Jan 21 2020 10:48am
I did see it but a want one to do 80% charges. 80% is storage level for a lipo battery. Should not let them sit higher or lower than that for any extended time. Been using lipo batteries in RC’s for a long time. Also if you do not need full range charging to lower levels helps to extend battery life but make sure you go 100% every few charges. So we will see how it goes.
Luna chargers have 80-90-100% options and switchable amperage as well:

https://lunacycle.com/luna-charger-52v- ... e-charger/

thineight   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by thineight » Jan 22 2020 2:36am

Lubin wrote:
Jan 21 2020 7:41pm
The new firmware with the human and motor watt showed is a cool feature for learning. Thanks @Casainho and co. for all the work done.
I calibrated my torque sensor with fw 0.6.2.
However I sometime encountered issues while testing with the new calibration enabled (superman watt, and motor behaviour not ok).

The TSDZ2 torque sensor seems sensitive to temperature. I calibrated the sensor in house at 20 degC while outside temperature oscillates between 0 to 10deg.

On the graph attached are three calibration curves done at 20, 12 and 0 degC.
I fit my points to a proposed equation to check the parameters depending on temperature (see equation on graph legend)
TSDZ2_TorqueSensor_Left_Calibration_Temperature.png
Hope a good discussion to find the simplest solution (I guess the 8 bit mcu is quite loaded)...

Lubin
Sounds like a good finding :thumb:
I think anyway you need to invert the equation because the bike reads the torque input (x) and the force must be calculated with the equation to subsequently feed the power calculation. Here I see the opposite: you enter with the force and you calculate the torque input.
Casainho, if the general approach is considered valid, what about considering in the algorithm only the three parameters A (e.g. 181), B (e.g. 136), and C (0.057) to determine the continuous curve?
I guess more memory can be saved in the display and maybe a quicker response from the system can be obtained rather than intercept the various segment.
MTB KTM Ultra 29" - City bike DAYTONA 28"

skestans   10 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by skestans » Jan 22 2020 3:26am

I’m looking for hydraulic brake sensors, the ones with a magnet and hall sensor. Are the tsdz2 connectors the same as the Bafang connectors for that matter? Most listings say 8fun Bafang and show a connector similar to the one I have (yellow) but they never show the actual pin layout inside the plug.

casainho   1.21 GW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by casainho » Jan 22 2020 3:46am

thineight wrote:
Jan 22 2020 2:36am
Casainho, if the general approach is considered valid, what about considering in the algorithm only the three parameters A (e.g. 181), B (e.g. 136), and C (0.057) to determine the continuous curve?
I guess more memory can be saved in the display and maybe a quicker response from the system can be obtained rather than intercept the various segment.
Torque sensors are very different ones to the others, there are at least 2 very different curves. Current implementation works and it is to soon to change it again, I do not have to time to be always developing. Maybe other developer can develop and test all that new ideas.
- TSDZ2 FAQ: issues and repairs, etc
- TSDZ2 OpenSource firmware

Developer of the Flexible OpenSource firmware for EBikes: TSDZ2 mid drive motor, KT motor controllers and displays: Bafang 850C color, SW102 Bluetooth and KT-LCD3.

If you like my work, please consider making a donation. I am being using the donations to buy needed resources for my developments. My paypal: casainho AT gmail.com.

casainho   1.21 GW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by casainho » Jan 22 2020 3:50am

Lubin wrote:
Jan 21 2020 7:41pm
I calibrated my torque sensor with fw 0.6.2.
However I sometime encountered issues while testing with the new calibration enabled (superman watt, and motor behaviour not ok).
I think you want to refer to sometimes, the measurement of the human power is very high, like instead of measuring in the range of hundred watts it measures in the range thousand watts -- when this happens to me, that is not often, I power off and on again the system and it usually works well -- I am still try to figure out why this issue happens...

Motor behavior not ok, can you please describe in more details, after looking at the various variables like human power, motor power and PWM duty-cycle?
- TSDZ2 FAQ: issues and repairs, etc
- TSDZ2 OpenSource firmware

Developer of the Flexible OpenSource firmware for EBikes: TSDZ2 mid drive motor, KT motor controllers and displays: Bafang 850C color, SW102 Bluetooth and KT-LCD3.

If you like my work, please consider making a donation. I am being using the donations to buy needed resources for my developments. My paypal: casainho AT gmail.com.

casainho   1.21 GW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by casainho » Jan 22 2020 1:17pm

New TSDZ2 firmware: motor current control, much more soft and natural motor control!!

On previous firmware versions, the motor was controlled by controlling the battery current and keeping motor current always at a max fixed value, which made sensation of a strong startup. Now, the motor current is controlled instead of battery current and this makes more soft and natural felling of the motor control, mainly at startup / low cadence / low motor speed. This should had been done from the begin of this project!!
To be clear, the firmware now maps the pedal human power to motor current while previously was mapping pedal human power to motor power.

Since on recent versions the torque sensor sensitivity was increased 4 times as also implemented full linearization / full calibration, the current control resolution was increased 4 times, and now controlling the motor current, the system is very responsive and fells very natural!!

Please follow the next steps to adapt assist level factors for you:

1. calibrate the torque sensor

2. ride with assist level 0 (motor will be disabled) for some minutes on a flat road and see on the display what is the average value of pedal human power - my average value is 100 watts

3. as it is advised to not exceed 18 amps of motor current on TSDZ2, let's say I want to have a motor current of 12 amps for my average human power of 100 watts, so, the assist level factor should be 0.12 (divide motor current by human power: 12 / 100 = 0.12)

4. you can choose an assist level factor like 0.05 for assist level 0 and increase next one by multiplying 1.33 (each level have +33% motor current from previous one), resulting in the following values: 0.05, 0.07, 0.09, 0.12, etc.

Changelog:
- changed motor control to be motor current and not battery/motor power
- changed assist level factors to be between 0.01 and 2.55
- current ramp configuration is now for motor current
- min ADC current step is now for motor current

Download here: https://github.com/OpenSource-EBike-fir ... 50C_v0.6.4
- TSDZ2 FAQ: issues and repairs, etc
- TSDZ2 OpenSource firmware

Developer of the Flexible OpenSource firmware for EBikes: TSDZ2 mid drive motor, KT motor controllers and displays: Bafang 850C color, SW102 Bluetooth and KT-LCD3.

If you like my work, please consider making a donation. I am being using the donations to buy needed resources for my developments. My paypal: casainho AT gmail.com.

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