New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

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izeman   100 GW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by izeman » Feb 25 2020 4:32am

eyebyesickle wrote:
Feb 25 2020 4:21am
There will be some 50T chain rings for TSDZ with 10mm offset in maybe a month, FYI, but nothing bigger than the 42T 10mm offset for now...
Sound nice. But it may not solve my second problem that appears after i move the chainline "in". The rear rubber is quite wide and the chain will rub the rubber then. As the TSDZ2 is really nothing more than a pedelec/city bike motor, the IGH should stand up to the task.
On the pro side, there is the straight chain line
On the con side, there is only 92% efficiency, high maintenance & weight
We will see how the chainline performs as is now, and then decide.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Retrorockit » Feb 25 2020 12:28pm

izeman wrote:
Feb 24 2020 2:31pm
As my chainline is soooo out of straight I thought of the Alfine SG-S7001-11 (11 gears, 409% from lowest to highest gear, ebike approved). Any comments on this before I buy (the whole set is almost 450€ with gear lever and stuff ...)


Screenshot from 2020-02-24 20-30-05.png
I would look at this chart first.
https://www.sheldonbrown.com/chainline- ... -gear.html
The Shimano shifter casette inside the dropout moves the chainline in more than the Sturmey Archer hubs. Also SA has 3 speed IGH hubs with casette splines so you can move things around that way if needed.
http://www.sturmey-archer.com/en/produc ... rk3-silver
The BBSHD guys like the SA 3speed for it's strength, but it may not suit your purpose as much. There is also a Shimano made for E bike 5 speed. Tougher clutches , but be aware that 1st gear is direct and all others are Overdrive. The cogs have 6 drive lugs instead of 3 but come in larger sizes to help with the gearing.
Here is the Sheldon Brown gear calculator. The IGH hubs are in there including the new Shimano E 5 speed.
https://sheldonbrown.com/gear-calc.html
These rear cogs are not well known in the US, so probaly unknown in Europe. But might be worth the trouble if you go with the SA Dual drive.
https://surlybikes.com/parts/cassette_cog
In my opinion 8 speeds are enough for an Ebike. The fewer gears in the same space the stronger they tend to be. My BBSHD has an 8 speed derailer and a speed range from 0-35mph. But the bottom 2 gears I use with power off. My TSDZ2 has an 8 speed Nexus and a range of 0-25mph. In Shimano I would go with an Alfine 8, or the E5. I used the Nexus because this bike needed the rear roller brake.
If you run narrow cogs that allow a derailer type chain you can get away with more tolerance in the chainline than single speed chains require.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by john61ct » Feb 25 2020 1:43pm

Retrorockit wrote:The fewer gears in the same space the stronger they tend to be
Interesting idea.

I've been favoring the 14-speed Rohloff Speedhub, for a never mind speed use case, want max torque at very low wheel rpm

Limited to 130 Nm but that's a lot for these IGH right?

And the 526% ratio is a decent spread compared to these others too right?

Sorry dunno how to calc, but if the top speed in gear 14 is set at say 25mph, will that be low enough to give crazy good torque at say, below 5mph with a heavy cargo/tandem climbing steep hills?

Thinking driven by Lightning Rod's "Big Block" motor. . .

Of course if other IGH with fewer gears but stronger, just as much a ratio spread and **cheaper**, that would be great!

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by izeman » Feb 25 2020 2:44pm

Nothing beats the Rohloff when it comes to gear spread and Nm it can take.
Nexus Alfine 8 = 300%
Nexus Alfine 11 = 409%
Rohloff E14 = 526%

But also price wise it's unbeatable - just rough prices - you may get them a little cheaper
Nexus Alfine 8 = 140€
Nexus Alfine 11 = 300€
Rohloff E14 = 1.000€

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by hefest » Feb 25 2020 2:53pm

So what's the community verdict on slight play/wobble on a crank shaft? I see people reporting it but no final solution or if it is an issue at all.

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Re: New

Post by Retrorockit » Feb 25 2020 6:45pm

john61ct wrote:
Feb 25 2020 1:43pm
Retrorockit wrote:The fewer gears in the same space the stronger they tend to be
Interesting idea.

I've been favoring the 14-speed Rohloff Speedhub, for a never mind speed use case, want max torque at very low wheel rpm

Limited to 130 Nm but that's a lot for these IGH right?

And the 526% ratio is a decent spread compared to these others too right?

Sorry dunno how to calc, but if the top speed in gear 14 is set at say 25mph, will that be low enough to give crazy good torque at say, below 5mph with a heavy cargo/tandem climbing steep hills?

Thinking driven by Lightning Rod's "Big Block" motor. . .

Of course if other IGH with fewer gears but stronger, just as much a ratio spread and **cheaper**, that would be great!
The Rohloff is a large hub. It's rated for use in tandems so is strong as hell. Pretty much unbreakable.
The gear calculator starts with your tire size. In gear units a standard choice is "speed"@90rpm in the units of your choice. The TSDZ2 cuts power at 90rpm so that apllies also.
Then you can choose a few chain rings. Then a few rear cogs in the casette area.
Then you can select an IGH from the list. It will print a chart giving the speed in each possible gear at 90rpm cadence.
The TSDZ2 doesn't really have the power to go beyond 25MPH on most bikes with 2" wide tires.
For off road you need to have gear that's functional under 5mph. For a street bike 1 under 10MPH is enough.
If you choose 2 chainring sizes and 2 rear cogs it will show 4 results for each IGH gear.
If that's too confusing just make and print a chart for each combination. If you use 20MPH for a top speed it's easy to get 2or 3 gears below 10MPH. If you go for 25+MPH then you might have 1 with an 8 speed IGH.
You could chart your existing gearing that works for you first.
The Rohloff is in there.
https://sheldonbrown.com/gear-calc.html

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by famichiki » Feb 26 2020 3:25am

Triketech wrote:
Aug 16 2017 11:21am
I've seen a few other TSDZ2's even rode alongside a few of them, one of them being a poster on this forum. Their units were built in 2016, and much quieter than ours. Nor is ours a fluke.

As for the drag its quite minimal when pedaling. Turning the crank by hand you can feel some drag for sure, but at 90 RPM cadence it on the order of a few watts of loss not really much penalty when you can toggle that and more back with a switch.

There is a case seal that imparts the most drag and if it is twisted in assembly drag goes way up. I think that happened to a couple folks, not many. Not hard to correct.

For the money this drive offers a lot; but as they say "you get what you pay for."
Does anyone know about this case seal that can get twisted which is mentioned in the quoted post? I can't find any more info.

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Re: New

Post by izeman » Feb 26 2020 3:40am

Retrorockit wrote:
Feb 25 2020 6:45pm
The TSDZ2 doesn't really have the power to go beyond 25MPH on most bikes with 2" wide tires.
Even w/o having tried it yet, but 750W peak is hardly enough to even reach 25mph (40km/h). From my other bikes i know it takes around 1kW to go that fast. But don't you think that gearing it a bit higher for those fast downhill passages is a good idea?
Or would you gear it for flat top speed @90rpm?

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Re: New

Post by casainho » Feb 26 2020 3:55am

izeman wrote:
Feb 26 2020 3:40am
Retrorockit wrote:
Feb 25 2020 6:45pm
The TSDZ2 doesn't really have the power to go beyond 25MPH on most bikes with 2" wide tires.
Even w/o having tried it yet, but 750W peak is hardly enough to even reach 25mph (40km/h).
I go relatively easy to 45 km/h on flat on my city and to 50 km/h on slight descents but with me pedaling and giving about 150W myself. I have a 52V battery and I weight 105 kgs, my ebike with relatively large tires and rear panniers - this is my ebike:

Image

I updated the wiki FAQ with the topic of Max speed:

https://github.com/OpenSource-EBike-fir ... #Max_speed
- TSDZ2 FAQ: issues and repairs, etc
- TSDZ2 OpenSource firmware

Developer of the Flexible OpenSource firmware for EBikes: TSDZ2 mid drive motor, KT motor controllers and displays: Bafang 850C color, SW102 Bluetooth and KT-LCD3.

If you like my work, please consider making a donation. I am being using the donations to buy needed resources for my developments. My paypal: casainho AT gmail.com.

Retrorockit   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Retrorockit » Feb 26 2020 5:19am

I looked at Casainho's speed article.
He's running 50x11 top gear and 27.5 off road tires. I'm pretty sure he's gearing for downhill.
My BBSHD runs 50x11 26"x2.125 Shwalbe Big Apple Plus grooved slicks. I have flat terrain but windy.This will go 36mph at 100rpm, 33@90. The BBSHD has no RPM cutout.
My TSDZ2 is geared for 25mph top speed @90rpm. Our national speeed limit for E bikes is 28MPH 750W limit. 44x19t with a Nexus8 and 26x2 Big Apple tires. I think I've had it up to that but maybe not for long. I chose that as much for having a low gear below 10MPH for use in the city in parks and sidewalks (pedestrians are rare in many areas here). It's a guest bike and much too small for me even with a long "Stingray" banana saddle,

Gear chart using MPH @ 90 RPM
For 26 X 1.9 / 47-559 / MTB tire with 170 mm cranks
With custom sprocket(s)
With Shimano 8-speed Nexus, Alfine Rear Hub
0.53 (Low) 0.64 0.75 0.85 1.0 1.22 1.42 1.62 (High)
44
19 8.4
44
19 10.3
44
19 11.9
44
19 13.6
44
19 16.0
44
19 19.5
44
19 22.7
44
19 25.8
But yes I make my top gear a little long for tail winds, but not downhill.

Here it is in Km/h.
Gear chart using KPH @ 90 RPM
For 26 X 1.9 / 47-559 / MTB tire with 170 mm cranks
With custom sprocket(s)
With Shimano 8-speed Nexus, Alfine Rear Hub
0.53 (Low) 0.64 0.75 0.85 1.0 1.22 1.42 1.62 (High)
44
19 13.5
44
19 16.5
44
19 19.2
44
19 21.9
44
19 25.7
44
19 31.4
44
19 36.5
44
19 41.5
If you want to post from the gear calculator just highlight everything then copy and paste.
There's a photo at this link.
https://electricbike.com/forum/forum/ma ... bs-project
Last edited by Retrorockit on Feb 26 2020 6:30am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Elinx » Feb 26 2020 6:13am

famichiki wrote:
Feb 26 2020 3:25am
......
Does anyone know about this case seal that can get twisted..... I can't find any more info.
Isn't it this one?
viewtopic.php?f=28&t=79788&start=4775#p1458794

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by famichiki » Feb 26 2020 6:25am

Elinx wrote:
Feb 26 2020 6:13am
Isn't it this one?
viewtopic.php?f=28&t=79788&start=4775#p1458794
Thanks, it might be. I don't have any looseness or play, but perhaps more drag with the motor off than others from what I've been reading.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Elinx » Feb 26 2020 6:53am

famichiki wrote:
Feb 26 2020 6:25am
.....
Thanks, it might be. .....
It is the side of the axle that has, behind this seal, two bearings in the old version and one bearing in the new version of the axle.
I can imagine that if there is some play, with one bearing on that side there could be more drag by that seal.
With the new one there is room to put eventually a second bearing against the circlips.
source

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by hefest » Feb 26 2020 5:18pm

andrea_104kg wrote:
Feb 14 2020 6:11pm
feyris wrote:
Feb 14 2020 10:15am
ancan wrote:
Feb 12 2020 12:01pm
I've got a problem with flickering headlight that is connected to the TSDZ2's light connectors. It's OK from start but when voltage drops under 50V the light gets more and more unstable. I assume this is due to crappy voltage regulator on the 6V output. Unfortunately when it gets really bad my lamp keeps turning off as well, which is rather annoying.

Anyone have any ideas on a workaround for this. Put a capacitor on the 6V output? What size of cap? Is there room to put it in the motor?

I also had this issue
After 20mn of ride, the light power off for few seconds, then power on again...
It looks like the 6v regulator is heating too mutch?
My light is 6V 0.5 A
I ordered a 60v to 6v transformer and a SSR to switch it.
this may be usefull?
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/3303642 ... 4c4dzz7JPC
I have that exact one but still didn't install it. Planning on soldering it to wire coming from motor to the display which has the voltage of battery (48V) but not sure if that wire can handle 2-3A.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by izeman » Feb 27 2020 1:12am

You got a 100-150W head light??? I'll have to check that link. My LED lamps are 10-15W max and are more than enough for all riding.
So jokes aside: if the output of that thing is 2A@5V then it will be ~0.2A@50V. So no issue for any wire you got installed.

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Re: New

Post by skestans » Feb 27 2020 1:46am

izeman wrote:
Feb 26 2020 3:40am
Retrorockit wrote:
Feb 25 2020 6:45pm
The TSDZ2 doesn't really have the power to go beyond 25MPH on most bikes with 2" wide tires.
Even w/o having tried it yet, but 750W peak is hardly enough to even reach 25mph (40km/h). From my other bikes i know it takes around 1kW to go that fast. But don't you think that gearing it a bit higher for those fast downhill passages is a good idea?
Or would you gear it for flat top speed @90rpm?
I have no problem going past 40 km/h with my tsdz2. My peak is 50 km/h on flat without wind.

However, that’s plenty fast. It’s probably even too fast to be safe (people don’t expect bikes to go that fast cruise speed so they tend to miscalculate whether they can cut you off or whether they should wait for you to pass). It’s also fast enough to attract police attention. Where I live ebikes can only assist up to 25 kph. If you want more (up to 45 kph), then you need the bike inspected and have insurance and a license plate because it’s technically not a bicycle anymore. And of course you can’t pass the inspection with a diy bike so you’re driving an uninsured vehicle. So yeah, because you can’t doesn’t mean you should, but the tsdz2 is plenty fast for normal use.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by izeman » Feb 27 2020 3:39am

I wish there was some "secret" button combination (that you can define by your own - combination of buttons and brake maybe) to unlock the unlimited mode so the bike is legal for everyone else. Also much better if you lend your bike to someone else and don't want them to speed around.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Elinx » Feb 27 2020 5:51am

izeman wrote:
Feb 27 2020 3:39am
I wish there was some "secret" button combination .....so the bike is legal for everyone else.
with OSF this is called "street mode" :)

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by izeman » Feb 27 2020 5:58am

Elinx wrote:
Feb 27 2020 5:51am
izeman wrote:
Feb 27 2020 3:39am
I wish there was some "secret" button combination .....so the bike is legal for everyone else.
with OSF this is called "street mode" :)
I know of street mode. But i can be enabled and disable easily by accessing the menu. To make a bike "really street legal" (at least in EU) this must not be allowed. So you must remove this from menu somehow. Or safe it with some secret code that can't be found out easily.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by skestans » Feb 28 2020 2:04am

Elinx wrote:
Feb 27 2020 5:51am
izeman wrote:
Feb 27 2020 3:39am
I wish there was some "secret" button combination .....so the bike is legal for everyone else.
with OSF this is called "street mode" :)
Where is the option though? I can't find it on the 850C. There is a menu item to set the max assist speed, but nowhere could I find a toggle for 25km/h <-> whatever max you defined.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Elinx » Feb 28 2020 2:16am

izeman wrote:
Feb 27 2020 5:58am
....To make a bike "really street legal" (at least in EU) this must not be allowed. ..... safe it with some secret code that can't be found out easily.
With default displays, that is already the case if you startup into streetmode by default.
This because the default display's don't have a readable menu structure as kt-lcd3.
skestans wrote:
Feb 28 2020 2:04am
..Where is the option though? I can't find it on the 850C. ......
The latest versions for 850C/SW102

In the wiki - Features and Configurations:
"Note that the street mode is not implemented yet."

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by manoz » Feb 28 2020 10:42am

So I snapped the the bolt that held the anchor onto the chainstay, thankfully I was able to remove the part in the anchor with a pair of vice grips. Am I better off replacing this with a black "high tensile" bolt? Are they much stronger?

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by fireflyer451 » Feb 28 2020 11:28am

Calibration of Torque Sensor on a Recumbent Trike?

Good morning, is there a recommended method to do this calibration on a recumbent trike? I've read about standing on the pedals and applying different weights but..... I'm sitting down (a la lounge chair-like) and pressing forward/horizontally on the pedals. Advise is appreciated, thanks in advance.

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Re: New

Post by SlowCo » Feb 28 2020 11:43am

casainho wrote:
Feb 26 2020 3:55am
I go relatively easy to 45 km/h on flat on my city and to 50 km/h on slight descents but with me pedaling and giving about 150W myself. I have a 52V battery and I weight 105 kgs, my ebike with relatively large tires and rear panniers - this is my ebike:
[img]
Hello Casainho, I love the work you do and contribute to the ebike community in terms of open source firmware. :thumb:

But what intrigues me when seeing your bike is the seat. How does it work for you without a "nose" on it? Does it give enough support? I've been looking at a saddle like that but am not convinced it will be any good compared to a wide bicycle seat with a "nose".
20200202-063904.jpg
20200202-063904.jpg (48.16 KiB) Viewed 1004 times

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Brlowe » Feb 28 2020 11:47am

Is the speed sensor needed? I have a Garmin GPS and my Phone showing me speed. Does the TSDZ2 require the speed sensor? If it does not what am I loosing without having it? Does the display show you a distance to empty or anything like that? Can I comfigure it to show something else in place of the speed on the display?

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