New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

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Andrew707   10 mW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Andrew707 » Jul 17 2020 12:19pm

I'm running 36V TSDZ2 with VLCD5 OSF and 48V battery. In the past two and a half months I biked over 2000km. So far so good.

I just received spare blue gear just in case I need to replace it soon. One odd thing I noticed is that when pedalling quickly uphill it seems like motor "slips" (can't really explain it) and won't help until I stop pedalling for a second and then everything is back to normal again. It happens every now and then but not too often... Could this be the sign that blue gear is wearing down?

Also, as per someone's suggestion here a couple of months ago, I've ordered these two lights from Aliexpress. They should support 4-85V. I think I've soldered the wires properly (was my first time) and put the shrink wrap on. I flashed the motor with the lights setting on. Everything worked great once I connected it - the lights were very bright and I was extremely happy!
However, when I was adjusting them on my handlebar they suddenly turned off. Then I noticed a very odd thing - one (or sometimes both) light are on (but very very weak) when the system is off. When the system is on then lights are off. If I turn on the lights (the screen lights up) then both lights turn off. If I turn off the lights (the screen lights off) then both lights are on but very very weak - barely visible at night and seems like they're lightly pulsing... Any idea what the hell is happening here and why? How can I fix it?

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by sysrq » Jul 17 2020 12:41pm

Andrew707 wrote:
Jul 17 2020 12:19pm
I'm running 36V TSDZ2 with VLCD5 OSF and 48V battery. In the past two and a half months I biked over 2000km. So far so good.

I just received spare blue gear just in case I need to replace it soon. One odd thing I noticed is that when pedalling quickly uphill it seems like motor "slips" (can't really explain it) and won't help until I stop pedalling for a second and then everything is back to normal again. It happens every now and then but not too often... Could this be the sign that blue gear is wearing down?

Also, as per someone's suggestion here a couple of months ago, I've ordered these two lights from Aliexpress. They should support 4-85V. I think I've soldered the wires properly (was my first time) and put the shrink wrap on. I flashed the motor with the lights setting on. Everything worked great once I connected it - the lights were very bright and I was extremely happy!
However, when I was adjusting them on my handlebar they suddenly turned off. Then I noticed a very odd thing - one (or sometimes both) light are on (but very very weak) when the system is off. When the system is on then lights are off. If I turn on the lights (the screen lights up) then both lights turn off. If I turn off the lights (the screen lights off) then both lights are on but very very weak - barely visible at night and seems like they're lightly pulsing... Any idea what the hell is happening here and why? How can I fix it?
Same here, it only helps when trying to accelerate, then the current decreases from 14A to 5A when climbing on 42t:32t-28t@17-18km/h and 3% or 4% grade. Haven't tried to measure anything on bigger hills yet though.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Doohickey » Jul 17 2020 2:23pm

famichiki wrote:
Jul 17 2020 8:41am
ilu wrote:
Jul 17 2020 7:23am
Clean and grease the main gear and the small gear driving it. The small gear is connected to the blue gear and maybe there's a problem with the one-way clutch in the blue gear? If that's not working, you're moving the whole gear chain and the motor when pedalling and it would create a lot of resistance.
Thanks for the tip. From what I've read, the drag varies between units and some are quite easy to pedal with the power off.

I've just watched jbalat's blue gear replacement video and it looks like that clutch in the blue gear could be it. I wonder if it's possible to hook up a multimeter to the power input connectors and see if anything is generated while spinning the cranks.

Before I pull it all apart though, does anyone know what size these screws are? I'd like to replace them with countersunk hex heads at the same time.

motor-screws.jpg
The screws are M4 * 12. I replaced them with Torx ones from Aliexpress - the heads were a bit too wide (meaning I could not get the cover on), so I spun the screws in a drill, holding the edge of the screwhead against a piece of sandpaper to get them down to the correct size. The head diameter of the original ones is 6.7mm.

I also replaced the hex screws holding the cover on, since those stripped for me too. They are M4 * 14.

I don't think you'd get any voltage on the battery connectors when spinning the motor due to the mosfets and electronics inside. It should not have a noticable amount of drag, certainly not so much to make it hard to keep up speed.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Doohickey » Jul 17 2020 2:49pm

Andrew707 wrote:
Jul 17 2020 12:19pm
[...]
Also, as per someone's suggestion here a couple of months ago, I've ordered these two lights from Aliexpress. They should support 4-85V. I think I've soldered the wires properly (was my first time) and put the shrink wrap on. I flashed the motor with the lights setting on. Everything worked great once I connected it - the lights were very bright and I was extremely happy!
However, when I was adjusting them on my handlebar they suddenly turned off. Then I noticed a very odd thing - one (or sometimes both) light are on (but very very weak) when the system is off. When the system is on then lights are off. If I turn on the lights (the screen lights up) then both lights turn off. If I turn off the lights (the screen lights off) then both lights are on but very very weak - barely visible at night and seems like they're lightly pulsing... Any idea what the hell is happening here and why? How can I fix it?
IIRC the lights output of the motor is only good for about 5 watts, and those lights look like they are more than that, especially with two of them. Have you tested the lights with another power supply, and have you checked weather you get 6v on the lights output (without the lights)?

If the lights are fine, and the lights output of the motor is fine, you may need a to use a relay and power the lights directly from the battery.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by amberwolf » Jul 17 2020 3:21pm

It sounds like either a wire has broken inside the insulation or at teh back of a contact, or something is partially unplugged, or more likely the light-control FET in the display/system has failed from overloading.

If that's the case, then you would need to either replace the unit that has the light-control FET, or the FET itself (if possible).


Either way, you'll want to then use relay to actually switch battery power to the lights, and use the light-control FET to control the relay instead.

famichiki   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by famichiki » Jul 17 2020 7:03pm

Doohickey wrote:
Jul 17 2020 2:23pm
The screws are M4 * 12. I replaced them with Torx ones from Aliexpress - the heads were a bit too wide (meaning I could not get the cover on), so I spun the screws in a drill, holding the edge of the screwhead against a piece of sandpaper to get them down to the correct size. The head diameter of the original ones is 6.7mm.

I also replaced the hex screws holding the cover on, since those stripped for me too. They are M4 * 14.

I don't think you'd get any voltage on the battery connectors when spinning the motor due to the mosfets and electronics inside. It should not have a noticable amount of drag, certainly not so much to make it hard to keep up speed.
Great info, thanks for that! Do you also happen to know what size the ones holding the drive-side cover are? Without being able to get at them, they seem to measure 7mm with the threaded hole depth being 8mm but open on the end.

Did you choose stainless screws or zinc plated? I've checked the cover bolts and they are stainless but 14mm is a difficult length to find online here in button head. The front hole measures 20mm deep and I expect the others are similar. I'm uncertain as to how deep the thread goes but I'll give M4 x 16mm a try.

There might be risk of galvanic corrosion between the aluminium case and stainless, but in reality I've never had an issue in other applications. Anti-seize or grease on the threads would reduce that risk too. However zinc usually holds up pretty good in the weather, and if I recall correctly can be rated to a higher tensile strength than stainless.. not that it matters here.
Andrew707 wrote:
Jul 17 2020 12:19pm
However, when I was adjusting them on my handlebar they suddenly turned off. Then I noticed a very odd thing - one (or sometimes both) light are on (but very very weak) when the system is off.
The wiring in the speed sensor cabling is pretty thin so I'd be concerned about overheating and damaging it using higher output lights. Also the standalone battery pack powered versions of those lights I've seen all run off 7.2V. Eco Cycles has a good video on YouTube about installing a relay instead, then you can go nuts with the lighting.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RuHUcbF1ClE
Last edited by famichiki on Jul 18 2020 1:10am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by famichiki » Jul 17 2020 11:10pm

btslo wrote:
Jul 15 2020 3:26am
I have some play in the spider, is this normal?

https://photos.app.goo.gl/HEyyALhhQhxjd8c87

All the bolts are tight and there is no play in the main axle, only on the chainring and spider.
I have this now after a couple of thousand kilometres, it wasn't like that when new. I think I might need to replace the sprag clutch but just trying to work out which to buy. The factory items with the o-ring seal are available and come with the big gear, but surely that's going to be just as bad as the old one soon. The other options I find don't have the o-ring but vary hugely in price, and I have no idea if the quality justifies paying more and how necessary the o-ring seal is or if anything else can be done to seal them.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Waynemarlow » Jul 18 2020 5:27am

Any movement not directly inwards and outwards is due to failure of the sprag bearing on the chainside. Bare in mind though that a micro millimeter of play in the bearing is going to magnified enormously at the chainring. Even brand new high quality bearings will show some movement.

Yup the O ring ready ones are not widely available. The ones without can be fitted at a reasonable price with either smearing a good water proof grease between the bearing and chain ring carrier or a more permanent method is simply to use an instant gasket from most auto parts shops. HYLOMAR Universal Blue non-setting Instant Gasket Jointing Compound Sealant 40g is just one of a number you could use.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by famichiki » Jul 18 2020 6:39am

Waynemarlow wrote:
Jul 18 2020 5:27am
Yup the O ring ready ones are not widely available.
I think I'll go with a non o-ring type and your suggestions as I can purchase them locally. They really should have put the o-ring groove on the inside of the spider instead.

Looking at better quality blue gear clutch bearings, I notice some are pre-greased inside. But I haven't seen adding grease mentioned before even in the repair manual. It seems logical to me that it needs lubrication but perhaps there's a concern that it could slip, which is a possibility if using greases with extreme pressure additives.
bearing.jpg
bearing.jpg (29.99 KiB) Viewed 512 times

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Doohickey » Jul 18 2020 8:29am

famichiki wrote:
Jul 17 2020 7:03pm

[...]

Great info, thanks for that! Do you also happen to know what size the ones holding the drive-side cover are? Without being able to get at them, they seem to measure 7mm with the threaded hole depth being 8mm but open on the end.


Did you choose stainless screws or zinc plated? I've checked the cover bolts and they are stainless but 14mm is a difficult length to find online here in button head. The front hole measures 20mm deep and I expect the others are similar. I'm uncertain as to how deep the thread goes but I'll give M4 x 16mm a try.

Most of the screws sizes are mentioned in the repair guide: https://github.com/OpenSource-EBike-fir ... MANUAL.pdf The way I read it it seems to say that they are m4 *10.

I'd imagine you could always sand down 16mm screws if they turn out to be too long.

I just picked the first screws i found, I had no idea there can be issues with stainless ones - I guess I'll put some grease or something just the be sure.

famichiki   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by famichiki » Jul 18 2020 9:00am

Doohickey wrote:
Jul 18 2020 8:29am
Most of the screws sizes are mentioned in the repair guide: https://github.com/OpenSource-EBike-fir ... MANUAL.pdf The way I read it it seems to say that they are m4 *10.
You are correct, I found the guide today and missed that. I was looking in the reassembly section where it doesn't mention the size for those ones. I may have to try to measure one up for certain as there's only a few mm of thread to screw into so no margin for error.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Retrorockit » Jul 19 2020 2:58pm

famichiki wrote:
Jul 18 2020 6:39am
Waynemarlow wrote:
Jul 18 2020 5:27am
Yup the O ring ready ones are not widely available.
I think I'll go with a non o-ring type and your suggestions as I can purchase them locally. They really should have put the o-ring groove on the inside of the spider instead.

Looking at better quality blue gear clutch bearings, I notice some are pre-greased inside. But I haven't seen adding grease mentioned before even in the repair manual. It seems logical to me that it needs lubrication but perhaps there's a concern that it could slip, which is a possibility if using greases with extreme pressure additives.

bearing.jpg
You are absolutely correct about lubing that roller clutch. The best is light oil with no additives, but that's not practical here. So light grease with no additives, and don't pack it full. That can keep the rollers from moving to engage. If it came greased I would use it as is and be careful what lube you use around it.

famichiki   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by famichiki » Jul 19 2020 8:31pm

Retrorockit wrote:
Jul 19 2020 2:58pm
You are absolutely correct about lubing that roller clutch. The best is light oil with no additives, but that's not practical here. So light grease with no additives, and don't pack it full. That can keep the rollers from moving to engage. If it came greased I would use it as is and be careful what lube you use around it.
Do you have any recommendations for a light grease? Ordinarily I'd use Inox MX6, and actually that might also be suitable for the blue gear teeth, but unfortunately it is EP rated. I'll look around for what's available for fishing reels, they also use one-way bearings so a grease intended for those would likely be perfect.
https://www.inoxmx.com/products/mx6-food-grade-grease/

Edit.. It seems one-way bearings are used in the RC world and there are a few specialty greases around for them, such as this one from Kyosho. I haven't looked into the specs yet.
https://rc.kyosho.com/en/96509.html
https://www.rcmart.com/KYOSHO-ONE-WAY-B ... 9_00072294

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by btslo » Jul 20 2020 1:35am

I'm using this for almost everything that spins fast and for the blue and main gear: https://www.opieoils.co.uk/p-114541-mob ... g-100.aspx

Regarding that play on the chainring, the motor has max 500km light use, so I'm surprised it worn out so quick.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by famichiki » Jul 20 2020 5:37am

Retrorockit wrote:
Jul 19 2020 2:58pm
If it came greased I would use it as is and be careful what lube you use around it.
Mineral oil-based calcium/lithium soap grease without any extreme pressure (EP) additives is what Schaeffler Group (INA, FAG and LuK) pre-fill this type of one-way bearing with, which are also known as drawn cup roller clutches. They designate this specification grease as GA26.
lubrication.png
lubrication.png (33.23 KiB) Viewed 371 times
SKF LGMT 2 looks like a good choice and is available in a small reasonably priced 35g tube.
https://www.skf.com/au/products/lubrica ... pose-nlgi2
skf-grease.jpg
skf-grease.jpg (17.43 KiB) Viewed 359 times

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by satnamlol » Jul 20 2020 1:22pm

Hello,

Maybe someone knows what can be the problem?

I have TSDZ2 with stock VLCD5 display and trying to flash marcoq open-source firmware. However when I try to Program I get this error:

(API) ERROR : Cannot communicate with the tool.
Wrong tool selection or check tool power supply or check that a previous session is closed.

I get the same error when using STVP and trying to read/program.

I have installed all needed drivers, cables are really short, I even cut my motor speed sensor and connected wires directly. The wires are connected to the right pins on STLink V2.

Also, should display turn on after I connect my STLink v2? because I am unable to turn it on for some reason, even though I have tested my STlink with multimeter and the current is coming at 5V.

I have been trying to flash it for the last 3 days, but was unsuccessful :cry:

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by btslo » Jul 20 2020 1:37pm

Try using 3.3V instead of 5V

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by satnamlol » Jul 20 2020 2:02pm

btslo wrote:
Jul 20 2020 1:37pm
Try using 3.3V instead of 5V
Thank you for helping! Unfortunately, it is still the same. Any other tips?

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by btslo » Jul 21 2020 1:25am

Try asking here: viewtopic.php?p=1571905

Are you sure all the drivers are installed?

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Andrew707 » Jul 21 2020 1:53am

Doohickey wrote:
Jul 17 2020 2:49pm
If the lights are fine, and the lights output of the motor is fine, you may need a to use a relay and power the lights directly from the battery.
amberwolf wrote:
Jul 17 2020 3:21pm
Either way, you'll want to then use relay to actually switch battery power to the lights, and use the light-control FET to control the relay instead.
Thank you, I'll try to verify if everything is fine and then buy a relay.
Is this one suitable?

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by famichiki » Jul 21 2020 1:57am

Andrew707 wrote:
Jul 21 2020 1:53am
Thank you, I'll try to verify if everything is fine and then buy a relay.
Is this one suitable?
This is what's used in the below video.
https://www.eco-ebike.com/products/soli ... oad-output


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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by eyebyesickle » Jul 21 2020 6:47pm

famichiki wrote:
Jul 21 2020 1:57am
Andrew707 wrote:
Jul 21 2020 1:53am
Thank you, I'll try to verify if everything is fine and then buy a relay.
Is this one suitable?
This is what's used in the below video.
https://www.eco-ebike.com/products/soli ... oad-output

fanichiki, it's good to see someone watched the video! I just thought I was sooooo slick coming up with that. Hahaha. I was a little sad when not so many people seemed interested. Not that it gets much exposure. I'm all about strong integrated lights ...but I have my own style and not everyone goes for that. I worked out a new easier type, I just use an external seat tube mounted controller box with the relay and sometimes a DC/DC in it... You can also take up any extra battery line and wiring harness slack in it, so it works out nicely. I made a few versions, including one that doesn't have integrated lighting, but instead full turning signals, brake light, and horn, controlled by a switcher mechanism. Ebike specific... Nice and small. In attaching pics of different versions... I use it for BBS systems too. You can tap into the brake wire for the brake lights to work, it's pretty nice. Also, I found a way to run higher power lights directly from the B+ voltage line so you don't have to tap into the battery, but I have not tested high amperage over time .. it may burn out the controller port like running lights that are too strong on the 6v line does. I haven't had time to test it fully yet. You can see in one pic though, you just plug in the main 8 pin connector, and nothing else ...

Andrew707, the relay you posted looks like an AC/DC relay, you need one with a DC switch that uses 5-6v, and then can handle a DC load of whatever voltage your battery is. Make sure the amperage is rated for whatever current your lights use at least.
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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Andrew707 » Jul 21 2020 7:05pm

eyebyesickle wrote:
Jul 21 2020 6:47pm
Andrew707, the relay you posted looks like an AC/DC relay, you need one with a DC switch that uses 5-6v, and then can handle a DC load of whatever voltage your battery is. Make sure the amperage is rated for whatever current your lights use at least.
I really liked this trick of hiding a relay in the motor casing!
I just ordered exactly the same relay from aliexpress since shipping to Canada from eco-cycles costs more than a relay itself... I guess I'll have about 2-3 months (until it arrives) to figure out if I also need a new controller...

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by famichiki » Jul 21 2020 7:18pm

eyebyesickle wrote:
Jul 21 2020 6:47pm
Also, I found a way to run higher power lights directly from the B+ voltage line so you don't have to tap into the battery, but I have not tested high amperage over time .. it may burn out the controller port like running lights that are too strong on the 6v line does. I haven't had time to test it fully yet. You can see in one pic though, you just plug in the main 8 pin connector, and nothing else ...
Consider finding the wire gauge amp rating and adding an appropriate fuse, if you haven't already done so.

https://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm

And please keep us updated on the project! :thumb:

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by bdidier » Jul 22 2020 5:03am

Doohickey wrote:
Jul 17 2020 2:49pm
Andrew707 wrote:
Jul 17 2020 12:19pm
[...]
Also, as per someone's suggestion here a couple of months ago, I've ordered these two lights from Aliexpress. They should support 4-85V. I think I've soldered the wires properly (was my first time) and put the shrink wrap on. I flashed the motor with the lights setting on. Everything worked great once I connected it - the lights were very bright and I was extremely happy!
However, when I was adjusting them on my handlebar they suddenly turned off. Then I noticed a very odd thing - one (or sometimes both) light are on (but very very weak) when the system is off. When the system is on then lights are off. If I turn on the lights (the screen lights up) then both lights turn off. If I turn off the lights (the screen lights off) then both lights are on but very very weak - barely visible at night and seems like they're lightly pulsing... Any idea what the hell is happening here and why? How can I fix it?
IIRC the lights output of the motor is only good for about 5 watts, and those lights look like they are more than that, especially with two of them. Have you tested the lights with another power supply, and have you checked weather you get 6v on the lights output (without the lights)?

If the lights are fine, and the lights output of the motor is fine, you may need a to use a relay and power the lights directly from the battery.
Hello,

I think the transistor on the motor bord controller is now shorted and is not working as expected anymore, you will need to replace the controller board to make it working again

I have another solution do drive the light from the controller than a relay

Look at this MOSFET control board, with a resistance on the input to drop the voltage between 3.3v and 5v you can control the switching of the battery voltage (up to 100v) to the light with no risk of damaging the controller board

https://bogza.ro/index.php/FR120N_Isola ... lay_Module

Hope it help

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