New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Discussions related to motors other than hub motors.
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famichiki   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by famichiki » Jul 22 2020 5:07am

Doohickey wrote:
Jul 18 2020 8:29am
Most of the screws sizes are mentioned in the repair guide: https://github.com/OpenSource-EBike-fir ... MANUAL.pdf The way I read it it seems to say that they are m4 *10.
I removed one of the drive side cover bolts and as you can see they are not 10mm as the manual says, plus they are black instead of silver like the other side. The tabs are 9mm wide, so the most suitable replacement for these bolts would be M4 x 8mm. I'm going to replace the whole lot with stainless torx.

The bolts that hold the lower plastic cover on are also black, but are not stainless and measure M4 x 6mm (actually more like 5.5mm). The front hole will accept much longer, but the rear hole is shallow and won't.

The larger M5 x 14mm socket head cap screws that hold the spider on are interesting. They are marked A2-70 indicating they are stainless but are way too magnetic for me to believe. The head of one also very easily rounded out during removal. :(

Also, the drive side oil seal on mine is almost useless as it's such a loose fit there is no pressure on the axle. It measures 15mm ID x 28mm OD x 7mm high. Since the axle is 15mm diameter, I wonder if going to a 14mm ID seal would be better.
drive-cover-bolt1.jpg
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drive-cover-bolt2..jpg
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maximusdm   10 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by maximusdm » Jul 22 2020 8:35am

Hello,

I had to buy a new controller since mine is dead. I bought a 8 pin controller now that has throttle and ebrakes support.
I use the custom firmware with temperature sensor connected to the throttle, so I will use the throttle wires to solder the temp sensor. I do not use ebrakes.

My question is what I can do so the software does not cut the motor power due to missing ebrakes? Is it enough to cut and isolate the wires?

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Andrew707 » Jul 22 2020 12:45pm

bdidier wrote:
Jul 22 2020 5:03am
Hello,

I think the transistor on the motor bord controller is now shorted and is not working as expected anymore, you will need to replace the controller board to make it working again

I have another solution do drive the light from the controller than a relay

Look at this MOSFET control board, with a resistance on the input to drop the voltage between 3.3v and 5v you can control the switching of the battery voltage (up to 100v) to the light with no risk of damaging the controller board

https://bogza.ro/index.php/FR120N_Isola ... lay_Module

Hope it help
So as I mentioned before the lights are working when they're off on the display and are turned off when they're on on the display.
When one light is connected then the voltage on the other end is only 3.8V when lights are off on the display.
When both lights are disconnected then it's around 23V when lights are off on the display and ~1.8V when lights are on on the display...
Even if I would go with your proposed solution I still need a new controller, right?

famichiki   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by famichiki » Jul 22 2020 7:05pm

famichiki wrote:
Jul 22 2020 5:07am
Also, the drive side oil seal on mine is almost useless as it's such a loose fit there is no pressure on the axle. It measures 15mm ID x 28mm OD x 7mm high. Since the axle is 15mm diameter, I wonder if going to a 14mm ID seal would be better.
I took some more measurements of the oil seal, the inner lip is 14.1 mm and the outer dust seal lip is 15.1 mm.

The markings on the seal are: NGK 15 28 6/7 4

So one with a tighter outer seal would be better at retaining grease and keeping contaminants out. Has anyone replaced theirs with something better?

bdidier   1 µW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by bdidier » Jul 22 2020 7:28pm

Andrew707 wrote:
Jul 22 2020 12:45pm
bdidier wrote:
Jul 22 2020 5:03am
Hello,

I think the transistor on the motor bord controller is now shorted and is not working as expected anymore, you will need to replace the controller board to make it working again

I have another solution do drive the light from the controller than a relay

Look at this MOSFET control board, with a resistance on the input to drop the voltage between 3.3v and 5v you can control the switching of the battery voltage (up to 100v) to the light with no risk of damaging the controller board

https://bogza.ro/index.php/FR120N_Isola ... lay_Module

Hope it help
So as I mentioned before the lights are working when they're off on the display and are turned off when they're on on the display.
When one light is connected then the voltage on the other end is only 3.8V when lights are off on the display.
When both lights are disconnected then it's around 23V when lights are off on the display and ~1.8V when lights are on on the display...
Even if I would go with your proposed solution I still need a new controller, right?
Yes you will need a new controller

famichiki   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by famichiki » Jul 22 2020 8:23pm

Ugh.. It looks like my sprag clutch is fine and it's the whole assembly that moves, big gear and clutch together. There's 0.2mm play in-out which I guess due to a loose fit of the sprag clutch on the axle translates to a larger wobble on the outer spider/chainring.

Since mine is a newer model I don't have the shim(s) between the big gear and sprag clutch as seen in Jbalat's video still below.
shim.jpg
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A shim of 30mm ID x about 40mm OD is required, I ordered 30 x 42 in a few thicknesses and plan to fit behind the circlip rather than between the clutch and big gear.

This previous discussion relates to fitting shim washers on the non-drive side and I have a second bearing coming for that side, so I've grabbed some shims too. That link says the non-drive side shims should be 16mm ID x 22mm OD, any reason for this? I thought 15mm the same as the shaft would be better.
viewtopic.php?f=28&t=79788&p=1512178&hi ... m#p1512178

In addition to all this, with the big gear removed the pinion gear spins freely with minimal effort and locks up in reverse. So my concerns about that causing increase pedalling effort are unfounded. Could the difference between helical and straight toothed gearing somehow be why some people report difficulty and others don't have any complaints?
drive-side1.jpg
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drive-side2.jpg
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drive-side4.jpg
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James Broadhurst   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by James Broadhurst » Jul 23 2020 11:04am

Noisy TSDZ2 with coaster brake

I’ve got one of these fitted to a Cube stepthrough frame and it’s making more noise than I think it should. There’s nothing obvious that might be causing this. The frame was always “noisy” to begin with. Runs on version 19.0 with KTLCD3 display.

Normally I’d just replace the plastic gear, pinion and main gear and that would be it but what is the difference between the motor with and without a coaster brake, please?

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by hetm4n » Jul 23 2020 12:36pm

Hello. After about 1000 km, I have a problem with the torque sensor. At a standstill, with the pedals set horizontally without load, 192 shows once, after driving a few km 200, again after a few km 196, etc. the same is true when the pedal in a horizontal position loads its weight. Once I have 275, after a few km I have 298, after a few km I have 285, etc. system reset does not help. I was calibrating the torque sensor, and I have different characteristics each time. What may be the problem? I'm using 0.8.0 software
mongoose teocali comp 2014 TSDZ2 750W 13s3p & 13s7p
dartmoor primal 2017 bafang BBS02b 750W 13s6p

maximusdm   10 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by maximusdm » Jul 24 2020 3:37am

hetm4n wrote:
Jul 23 2020 12:36pm
Hello. After about 1000 km, I have a problem with the torque sensor. At a standstill, with the pedals set horizontally without load, 192 shows once, after driving a few km 200, again after a few km 196, etc. the same is true when the pedal in a horizontal position loads its weight. Once I have 275, after a few km I have 298, after a few km I have 285, etc. system reset does not help. I was calibrating the torque sensor, and I have different characteristics each time. What may be the problem? I'm using 0.8.0 software
The torque sensor has 2 small screws, that keep the sensor part connected to the body. It is possbile that the screws are loose or even one fell and the hall sensors are moving. The only way to check is to take out the torque sensor and inspect it.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by famichiki » Jul 25 2020 3:17am

It's difficult to pin the unpowered pedalling resistance on any one part. Helical gears have more friction than straight cut, but it doesn't seem like much effort in reality. With the drive side cover removed everything spins freely by hand. I noticed the largest increase in effort when I replaced the side cover - the seal around the main gear is the culprit. Greasing it didn't improve things and perhaps a proper rotary shaft seal would have been more appropriate here. Any ideas how to improve this?
seal.jpg
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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Waynemarlow » Jul 25 2020 6:57am

Sadly this seal is the one seal that creates most problems in my view with the water proofing of the motor. In reality the amount of effort spinning the motor by hand and feeling that difference when seated and pushing on 175mm cranks is actually pretty small amount of effort.

You either have to accept a bit of resistance with that seal in there and the motor being waterproofish or completely revamp that whole outside cover ( 3D print a cover with a large seal / O ring ) and gain only a marginally small gain on the resistance.

I've come to the conclusion is that for what we pay for the motors, a bit of resistance on the very very few occasions I've had to peddle home and the replacement of an engine occasionally is the compromise over buying a Bosch and the likes and have my speed limited to 25kph.

Speaking of this seal, does anyone have one spare, I could build a complete motor out of bits, but I cannot buy that seal. :(

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Elinx » Jul 25 2020 7:22am

Waynemarlow wrote:
Jul 25 2020 6:57am
...
Speaking of this seal, does anyone have one spare, I could build a complete motor out of bits, but I cannot buy that seal. :(
Maybe you can buy an O-ring seal at a specialized shop, if you know the exact dimensions of the tsdz2 seal.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Waynemarlow » Jul 25 2020 1:24pm

The TSDZ2 seal is actually shaped like a double seal as in it has two sharp faces to seal up against the plastic cover, by its shape the seal should rotate within the cover rather than the bearing face rotating in the seal. I'm not sure which way it was designed to be as its pretty normal for the seal to be fixed in the cover, mmmm.

Whatever an O ring would be a less seal than the factory one but if needs must. Anyone got a spare ?

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by eyebyesickle » Jul 25 2020 1:38pm

Waynemarlow wrote:
Jul 25 2020 1:24pm
The TSDZ2 seal is actually shaped like a double seal as in it has two sharp faces to seal up against the plastic cover, by its shape the seal should rotate within the cover rather than the bearing face rotating in the seal. I'm not sure which way it was designed to be as its pretty normal for the seal to be fixed in the cover, mmmm.

Whatever an O ring would be a less seal than the factory one but if needs must. Anyone got a spare ?
Send me a PM with your email, I have some of those coming, and I have a collection of literally all other parts... Been a pain to do but I've slowly been accumulating them.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Waynemarlow » Jul 25 2020 4:22pm

Thanks

famichiki   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by famichiki » Jul 25 2020 7:02pm

Waynemarlow wrote:
Jul 25 2020 1:24pm
The TSDZ2 seal is actually shaped like a double seal as in it has two sharp faces to seal up against the plastic cover, by its shape the seal should rotate within the cover rather than the bearing face rotating in the seal. I'm not sure which way it was designed to be as its pretty normal for the seal to be fixed in the cover, mmmm.
The outer V groove in the seal collects a lot of grit too, so at least it's keeping that out. It also has that V design on the opposite side and on the ID, just not the OD which is flat.

The seal is actually not wide enough to fill the recess in the cover properly. If you seat it touching the face of the big gear like in my photo there is 1-2mm gap between the the seal and the face of the cover. You can test this by sliding the seal to the edge of the big gear and putting the cover on, it won't be pushed all the way back to the big gear.

At the risk of adding more drag, the sealing could be improved with an o-ring added in front or behind the seal.

I gave mine a good clean up and tested it with oil and then grease - the oil reduced the drag slightly, although won't last as long nor be as an effective seal as grease would be.
seal2.jpg
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Waynemarlow wrote:
Jul 25 2020 6:57am
Sadly this seal is the one seal that creates most problems in my view with the water proofing of the motor. In reality the amount of effort spinning the motor by hand and feeling that difference when seated and pushing on 175mm cranks is actually pretty small amount of effort.

You either have to accept a bit of resistance with that seal in there and the motor being waterproofish or completely revamp that whole outside cover ( 3D print a cover with a large seal / O ring ) and gain only a marginally small gain on the resistance.

I've come to the conclusion is that for what we pay for the motors, a bit of resistance on the very very few occasions I've had to peddle home and the replacement of an engine occasionally is the compromise over buying a Bosch and the likes and have my speed limited to 25kph.
I agree with all this and will live with it. With the motor off, on flat sealed roads the drag is not so bad. But once you hit gravel, a head wind or an incline (or all of them!) everything is against you.

I'm also sometimes towing a loaded trailer. I used to be able to manage flats just fine before fitting the motor, hills were a challenge but do-able. Now with the motor off hills are impossible, and even on flat gravel it's a real slog to get anywhere so I need to ensure I'll never run out of battery. Of course, it's highly likely that I've become weaker since fitting the motor too. :(
Waynemarlow wrote:
Jul 25 2020 6:57am
Speaking of this seal, does anyone have one spare, I could build a complete motor out of bits, but I cannot buy that seal. :(
Alternatively a V-ring seal could be an good option if there something available to fit, the factory item is 80mm ID x 86mm OD.
v-rings.jpg
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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Waynemarlow » Jul 26 2020 5:36am

Gosh I had forgotten about those seals

Looked up my bearing supplier and low and behold

https://simplybearings.co.uk/shop/Seals ... index.html

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Waynemarlow » Jul 26 2020 6:04am

famichiki wrote:
Jul 25 2020 7:02pm

I'm also sometimes towing a loaded trailer. I used to be able to manage flats just fine before fitting the motor, hills were a challenge but do-able. Now with the motor off hills are impossible, and even on flat gravel it's a real slog to get anywhere so I need to ensure I'll never run out of battery. Of course, it's highly likely that I've become weaker since fitting the motor too. :(
But have you compared the drag compared to say the early Bosch and Shimano units ? The Bafang BBS02 I had was definitely worse, the Bosch unit I rode was similar to worse, but then if you go fitting lots of gears and sprag clutches you can't expect any thing less.

On mine using the V20 software I have the first level set at 40 - 50 W which is what I reckon about the losses of the motor and gears to make my bike equal to a non motor fitted bike.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by vreppeto » Jul 26 2020 7:39am

I have been looking at lubricants for the blue gear. The molykote em-50L appears to be a PAO lubricant with lithium thickeners and a molybdenum additive. It seems to be a unique blend. Here is a decent article on lubricant selection. https://www.ecllube.com/resources-for-e ... Grease.pdf

Here is a database on the molykote products https://www.lubricantspecialty.com/our- ... olefin-pao

Personally I think any red lithium high temp grease would work just as well as long as it does not eat the plastic. The valvoline synthetic high pressure grease is a lithium base with moly additive and valvoline says it is safe for plastics and rubber including cv boots and tie rod ends. https://sharena21.springcm.com/Public/D ... 162d889bd1

Another reasonable choice is LOCTITE® viperlube LB 8034™ It is a PAO base with lithium thickener and a calcium something additive. It is also safe for plastic and rubber.

https://bestsyntheticoilguide.com/synth ... ic-grease/
https://www.machinerylubrication.com/Re ... nd%20heat).

EP properties - means extreme pressure.

I am tired of diggin around on the internet now. Thus endeth the lip jacking.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by famichiki » Jul 26 2020 4:39pm

Waynemarlow wrote:
Jul 26 2020 6:04am
But have you compared the drag compared to say the early Bosch and Shimano units ? The Bafang BBS02 I had was definitely worse, the Bosch unit I rode was similar to worse, but then if you go fitting lots of gears and sprag clutches you can't expect any thing less.

On mine using the V20 software I have the first level set at 40 - 50 W which is what I reckon about the losses of the motor and gears to make my bike equal to a non motor fitted bike.
It's been a couple of years since I last rode a Bosch system, which was before I had the TSDZ2, so it's hard to make a comparison but I don't recall it being difficult with the power off. However that was in ideal circumstances and it may well be a similar experience otherwise.

I have some ideas along the lines of your low power suggestion and when I get the motor back together again will have a look at the firmware again. Barring some catastrophic failure I think this may be the best solution.

SKF has a good list of their V-rings with full specs but they may end up being too thick at the size needed. If I understand correctly, for best protection against ingress they also recommend placing the seal on the outside.
http://www.bearing.net.au/wp-content/up ... ges-V5.pdf

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Waynemarlow » Jul 27 2020 4:10am

Be careful on comparing drag with the motor off. The largest " human feel " difference to me is that most commercial motors are geared so that the outer chain ring is a 30T where as the TSDZ2 is a 42T. The commercial bikes are geared to 25 - 35 kmh max ( in the EU ) and thus can run the small gear and thus have a reasonably low speed hill climbing gear. Even in the largest gear at the back, we are still driving it from a 42T cog which without an engine you would never do. To compare then you need to look at a like for like gearing ratio.

On mine I run a 104BCD convertor and run a 36T cog as most of my riding is off road, but its very noticeable that you have to be 3 - 5 gears down as soon as you loose the motor over my conventional analogue bike, which I have a 30T front gear and exactly the same 44 - 11 rear cassette.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by kalleg » Jul 27 2020 5:16am

Anyone know if you can buy an offset chainring in Europe. I have standard spider + 104bcd spider. My chainline could use som adjusting, see image here:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/chuyjal30ljgu ... .jpg?dl=0
Haven't been able to find one :(

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by famichiki » Jul 27 2020 6:39am

kalleg wrote:
Jul 27 2020 5:16am
Anyone know if you can buy an offset chainring in Europe.
Future-bike sells them or Eco Cycles ships internationally.
http://www.future-bike.it/?s=Corona&post_type=product
https://www.eco-ebike.com/search?q=tsdz ... arrow+wide

kalleg   100 µW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by kalleg » Jul 27 2020 8:31am

famichiki wrote:
Jul 27 2020 6:39am
kalleg wrote:
Jul 27 2020 5:16am
Anyone know if you can buy an offset chainring in Europe.
Future-bike sells them or Eco Cycles ships internationally.
http://www.future-bike.it/?s=Corona&post_type=product
https://www.eco-ebike.com/search?q=tsdz ... arrow+wide
Thank you very much!! Much appreciated :)

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Waynemarlow » Jul 27 2020 8:31am

The question should be is the chain line actually giving problems, mine is similar and with the addition of a front chain guide ( previous front derailleur ) I'm not having problems.

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