New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Discussions related to motors other than hub motors.
This includes R/C motors, botttom bracket, roller and geared drives.
E-bike lover   1 µW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by E-bike lover » Jul 27 2020 4:28pm

hallo. I am new to this forum and extremely interested in this motor.

I am going to buy it and play with this opensource motor but i have a few questions which i couldn't find the answers:

1.Are the windings diferent between 36v and 48v motor?

2.How does 48v battery works on 36v motor? Will the power exceed 250W? I have seen that if a 48v battery being used on a 36v motor, u could have more speed. Is it 30% more? If i use a 48v battery on 48v motor, the speed will get lower but more torque. What is the maximum speed?
Link about speed & toruqe: 3.Can i speed up my bike(over 25km/h) while my battery is 48v but the maxium support power in motor is only 250W?

4.There is a bluetooth function on SW102. Is it able to update the firmware via app or website? Or is it still developing?
I know a bit programming in website.
Link from github doesn't mention:https://github.com/OpenSource-EBike-fir ... _wiki/wiki
Last edited by E-bike lover on Jul 27 2020 5:27pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Waynemarlow » Jul 27 2020 5:08pm

Mmmm I think you need to read the previous 300 pages, all the answers to your questions have been discussed at length.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by E-bike lover » Jul 27 2020 6:16pm

I have read it already but there are conflict on what they have said between different people. Also the situation is different.I want to limit the motor to only 250w to obey the law but i want higher top speed.

Let me simplify the question: What's the difference between the motor running on 36V 6.94A and 48V 5.2A ?
The one with 36V 6.94A has more torque because of higher current(A)? The one with 48V 5.2A has more speed?

Also if i flash the Opensource firmware and flash back the original one in order to send it back and repair, will i void the warranty?

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by amberwolf » Jul 27 2020 11:30pm

E-bike lover wrote:
Jul 27 2020 6:16pm
I want to limit the motor to only 250w to obey the law but i want higher top speed.
Does the law also limit the top speed to below what you want? If so, why obey the one without obeying the other?

FWIW, you can get higher speed by changing the gearing. Larger sprocket on the cranks or smaller on the wheel. Depending on what you change, it may reduce your torque for startups and lower speeds. (reducing the power will do that too).

Are you willing to pedal, potentially quite hard/alot, to get what you want?

What specific top speed do you already get?

What specific top speed do you want? It takes a certain amount power to overcome air and rolling resistances, so if your desired top speed is above what you are left with after reducing power, it might not reach that speed (unless you can provide enough extra power by pedalling to compensate.

What terrain/etc do you have? If it's hilly, then limitng the power means it may not be able to climb the hills.

Do you have any headwinds? If there are headwinds, it takes more power to go the same speed against them, so you'll have a lower top speed with less available power.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by famichiki » Jul 28 2020 3:23am

Waynemarlow wrote:
Jul 25 2020 1:24pm
The TSDZ2 seal is actually shaped like a double seal as in it has two sharp faces to seal up against the plastic cover, by its shape the seal should rotate within the cover rather than the bearing face rotating in the seal. I'm not sure which way it was designed to be as its pretty normal for the seal to be fixed in the cover, mmmm.

Whatever an O ring would be a less seal than the factory one but if needs must. Anyone got a spare ?
Quad rings or X-rings look like a good low friction replacement too, I haven't investigated sizes yet.
Attachments
quad-rings.jpg
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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Doohickey » Jul 28 2020 8:39am

E-bike lover wrote:
Jul 27 2020 4:28pm

1.Are the windings diferent between 36v and 48v motor?
Yes; they are different between 36 & 48v versions. The different wattage options are all the same hardware though, it's only limited in software with the stock firmware.
E-bike lover wrote:
Jul 27 2020 4:28pm

2.How does 48v battery works on 36v motor? Will the power exceed 250W? I have seen that if a 48v battery being used on a 36v motor, u could have more speed. Is it 30% more? If i use a 48v battery on 48v motor, the speed will get lower but more torque. What is the maximum speed?
The stock firmware will refuse to work with wrong battery voltage.

On the OSF firmware, the maximum power can be limited to whatever value (watts) you want, irrespective of what motor & battery voltage combo you have installed.

With a 36v motor and 48v battery, you can have higher cadence at the cranks, which does not necessarily mean higher speed (at the wheel). With the "correct" combination of motor and battery, it stops assisting well at around 75 - 80 rpm at the cranks. If you want to pedal faster than that, then the 36v motor, 48v battery combo is useful - with that you can pedal at up to 120rpm if you want.

Again, this is referring to speed at the cranks (cadence) - with 48v motor and 48v battery, you will get "normal" cadence, and "normal" torque at the cranks. With 36v and 48v, you will get a motor that can go to higher cadence, and less torque at the cranks, so you have to pedal faster to get the same amount of power in the end (higher speed / cadence but less torque = same amount of power). Some people want to pedal faster, hence getting this combo. How this affects the final speed at the wheel depends on the gearing of your bike.

However, now the OSF has a kind of "overdrive" mode giving you assistance up to 120rpm even on "correct" motor and voltage combos, IIRC it's a bit inefficient in that high cadence rrange.
E-bike lover wrote:
Jul 27 2020 4:28pm

3.Can i speed up my bike(over 25km/h) while my battery is 48v but the maxium support power in motor is only 250W?
In the OSF firmware, you can set speed and power limits to whatever you want, independently. So you could set unlimited speed and 250w if you wanted. Although with 250w I don't think you will go much faster than 25 - 30kph anyway, no matter what your motor and battery voltage combo is (maybe there are differences in gearing and efficiency, but I think 250w is 250w, and should give you about the same speed in the end)
E-bike lover wrote:
Jul 27 2020 4:28pm

4.There is a bluetooth function on SW102. Is it able to update the firmware via app or website? Or is it still developing?
I know a bit programming in website.
Link from github doesn't mention:https://github.com/OpenSource-EBike-fir ... _wiki/wiki
You can update the firmware of the sw102 itself via bluetooth and app (that's the only way to do it), however the motor itself still has to be updated via computer (with stlink), and since they both have to have the same version you cannot update everything over just buetooth, so you still need computer. It's theoretically possible if someone implements it, I think.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by famichiki » Jul 28 2020 9:03am

I fixed the wobble in the spider/big gear with a 0.3mm thick 30mm ID x 42mm OD shim, which I bought from here:
https://www.smallparts.com.au/store/par ... im/?v=1152

I'll shim the non-drive side of the axle next after some new bearings arrive. I tested with the factory bearing and that needed a 1.0mm shim, or perhaps 1.05. I don't have any shims in a 0.05mm increment, so I used 0.8mm of shims plus the 0.2mm factory spring washer which worked well and allowed all the circlips to seat properly. The shims I'm using are 15mm ID x 22mm OD.

But when I removed the axle I noticed a silver paste where the axle splines mate with the torque sensor, is that anti-seize? I have nickel anti-seize here and it's an identical consistency. It looks like it's getting into the roller bearing so I wonder if I should remove and regrease that. Should the end of the torque sensor be flush with the outside of the roller bearing? In the the below photo you can see there is a gap.

I just noticed that this bearing is HK2214, whereas HK2212 was used in the older models. Could the newer bearing being 2mm wider be the reason I am seeing this gap?
non-drive-side.jpg
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measurement3.jpg
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shim-fitted1.jpg
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shim-fitted2.JPG
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Last edited by famichiki on Jul 28 2020 7:02pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Waynemarlow » Jul 28 2020 9:37am

Be careful with all your shimming that you don't pull the torque sensor on the crank too close to the sensor on the controller by moving the crank too far towards the non drive side.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by fireflyer451 » Jul 28 2020 10:08am

I am not understanding the graph display on my 860c (version 1.0 & OSF 1.0) . The temperature sensor is installed and has been tested to be accurate. What do the large numbers at the top and bottom of the scale represent? They do not seem to have a relationship to the actual temperature value.

Below are images from the Units being set to Imperial or SI.

Thanks

SI
cel-2.jpg
cel-2.jpg (255.4 KiB) Viewed 361 times
Imperial
far2.jpg
far2.jpg (219.35 KiB) Viewed 361 times

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by cejean » Jul 28 2020 4:32pm

btslo wrote:
Jul 15 2020 3:26am
I have some play in the spider, is this normal?

https://photos.app.goo.gl/HEyyALhhQhxjd8c87

All the bolts are tight and there is no play in the main axle, only on the chainring and spider.
No, thats not normal.
You have to replace the one way main bearing.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by famichiki » Jul 28 2020 5:51pm

Waynemarlow wrote:
Jul 28 2020 9:37am
Be careful with all your shimming that you don't pull the torque sensor on the crank too close to the sensor on the controller by moving the crank too far towards the non drive side.
Thanks for the tip, could you show me a photo or tell me a bit more about this please? Do you mean the two rings rubbing together? I don't think I'm moving things around but instead just firming them up, the axle can't move any further than the drive side circlip originally held it anyway. If I was shimming the axle on the drive side instead I imagine this could cause issues.
torque-sensor.jpg
torque-sensor.jpg (35.34 KiB) Viewed 189 times
Last edited by famichiki on Jul 29 2020 8:39pm, edited 2 times in total.

casainho   10 GW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by casainho » Jul 28 2020 6:46pm

fireflyer451 wrote:
Jul 28 2020 10:08am
The temperature sensor is installed and has been tested to be accurate.
It is like what it seems - the system is reading incorrect value for the temperature sensor - you need to check again the sensor and the wiring to the motor controller.
- TSDZ2 FAQ: issues and repairs, etc
- TSDZ2 OpenSource firmware

Developer of OpenSource knowledge and technology for ebikes: Wireless Ebike boar ANT+ and Bluetooth, Flexible OpenSource firmware for EBikes: TSDZ2 mid drive motor, KT motor controllers and displays: Bafang 850C color, SW102 Bluetooth and KT-LCD3.

If you like my work, please consider making a donation to help my developments: paypal.me/jorgecasa

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by eyebyesickle » Jul 28 2020 6:59pm

casainho wrote:
Jul 28 2020 6:46pm
fireflyer451 wrote:
Jul 28 2020 10:08am
The temperature sensor is installed and has been tested to be accurate.
It is like what it seems - the system is reading incorrect value for the temperature sensor - you need to check again the sensor and the wiring to the motor controller.
But the current temperature in the lower picture is 127, while the graph high is 264 and the low is 174... So the low point on the graph is higher than the current temperature. This seems to be a problem with the graph high/low... Why do you say the temp sensor wiring is wrong?

I know that there is still an issue with metric/imperial. If you set the value in Imperial unit mode, it will scramble. I have a feeling that the high/low on the graph is having a similar issue. I don't think it's a temp sensor issue but a metric/imperial issue with the firmware.

If not, could you explain why you suspect wiring?

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by casainho » Jul 28 2020 7:17pm

eyebyesickle wrote:
Jul 28 2020 6:59pm
casainho wrote:
Jul 28 2020 6:46pm
fireflyer451 wrote:
Jul 28 2020 10:08am
The temperature sensor is installed and has been tested to be accurate.
It is like what it seems - the system is reading incorrect value for the temperature sensor - you need to check again the sensor and the wiring to the motor controller.
But the current temperature in the lower picture is 127, while the graph high is 264 and the low is 174... So the low point on the graph is higher than the current temperature.
Didn't you ever see that values on the graph are an average and take some time to reflect changes?
- TSDZ2 FAQ: issues and repairs, etc
- TSDZ2 OpenSource firmware

Developer of OpenSource knowledge and technology for ebikes: Wireless Ebike boar ANT+ and Bluetooth, Flexible OpenSource firmware for EBikes: TSDZ2 mid drive motor, KT motor controllers and displays: Bafang 850C color, SW102 Bluetooth and KT-LCD3.

If you like my work, please consider making a donation to help my developments: paypal.me/jorgecasa

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by eyebyesickle » Jul 28 2020 9:20pm

casainho wrote:
Jul 28 2020 7:17pm
eyebyesickle wrote:
Jul 28 2020 6:59pm
casainho wrote:
Jul 28 2020 6:46pm
fireflyer451 wrote:
Jul 28 2020 10:08am
The temperature sensor is installed and has been tested to be accurate.
It is like what it seems - the system is reading incorrect value for the temperature sensor - you need to check again the sensor and the wiring to the motor controller.
But the current temperature in the lower picture is 127, while the graph high is 264 and the low is 174... So the low point on the graph is higher than the current temperature.
Didn't you ever see that values on the graph are an average and take some time to reflect changes?
Sure but at first the reading is in metric, current temp 51, low on chart 51. Then switched to imperial, current temp 127, low 174... That in of itself shows a scrambled conversion does it not? I know from playing with imperial and metric that the number scrambles... I also happen to know that this users temp sensor is wired correctly and was reading accurately...

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by fireflyer451 » Jul 28 2020 9:37pm

Also regarding the specific temperature reading on the 860c (Circled in the image), after the cooling modification, this value and the external motor case temperature (measured with an infrared thermometer) is now within 3 degrees fahrenheit of each other. I have been carrying that meter and measure it several times during a ride. So to me, only the graph seems inaccurate.
far2.jpg
far2.jpg (98.88 KiB) Viewed 304 times

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by casainho » Jul 29 2020 1:49am

eyebyesickle wrote:
Jul 28 2020 9:20pm
I also happen to know that this users temp sensor is wired correctly and was reading accurately...
Temperature sensor value on display, at least in degrees Celsius and up to max recommended range, is working well and well tested by now.
- TSDZ2 FAQ: issues and repairs, etc
- TSDZ2 OpenSource firmware

Developer of OpenSource knowledge and technology for ebikes: Wireless Ebike boar ANT+ and Bluetooth, Flexible OpenSource firmware for EBikes: TSDZ2 mid drive motor, KT motor controllers and displays: Bafang 850C color, SW102 Bluetooth and KT-LCD3.

If you like my work, please consider making a donation to help my developments: paypal.me/jorgecasa

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by skestans » Jul 29 2020 2:33pm

Some grey seal fell out of the motor today... it looks like it comes from behind the spider. Any idea what it is? Should I replace it?

Pictures: https://imgur.com/a/8l0T7xG

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Re: New

Post by famichiki » Jul 29 2020 5:23pm

skestans wrote:
Jul 29 2020 2:33pm
Some grey seal fell out of the motor today... it looks like it comes from behind the spider. Any idea what it is? Should I replace it?

Pictures: https://imgur.com/a/8l0T7xG
Have a look at my recent posts starting from here, do you think it's the same seal? It has a V groove on 3 sides and the outer side is flat. There are a few posts after this discussion potential replacements.
viewtopic.php?f=28&t=79788&start=7475#p1573083

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by famichiki » Jul 29 2020 5:30pm

When adding a second bearing to the newer axle, how are people retaining it since there's no outer groove for a circlip? I don't want it freely moving around, causing wear and and popping the seal out. It doesn't look like there's enough room to add a collar to the axle too.
TSDZ2_different_versions_axles_comparition.jpg
TSDZ2_different_versions_axles_comparition.jpg (199.09 KiB) Viewed 221 times

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Elinx » Jul 29 2020 5:39pm

skestans wrote:
Jul 29 2020 2:33pm
Some grey seal fell out of the motor today... ..
Couldn't be that the same stuff (anti seize?) that is noticed here?
famichiki wrote:
Jul 29 2020 5:30pm
When adding a second bearing to the newer axle, how are people retaining it since there's no outer groove for a circlip? .....
No circlip there, just remove the seal and insert the bearing against the circlip and insert the seal again.
http://www.jobike.it/forum/topic.asp?TO ... 39#1311209
Here and there is used some loctite between inner and axle

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by famichiki » Jul 29 2020 6:14pm

Elinx wrote:
Jul 29 2020 5:39pm
skestans wrote:
Jul 29 2020 2:33pm
Some grey seal fell out of the motor today... ..
Couldn't be that the same stuff (anti seize?) that is noticed here?
famichiki wrote:
Jul 29 2020 5:30pm
When adding a second bearing to the newer axle, how are people retaining it since there's no outer groove for a circlip? .....
No circlip there, just remove the seal and insert the bearing against the circlip and insert the seal again. (Some has used some loctite, but can't finde the source anymore)
http://www.jobike.it/forum/topic.asp?TO ... 39#1311209
It does look like anti-seize but I can't think what purpose it would serve there and why it's made such a mess. My motor only had grease in that area. I found this picture of an older model (with silver spider) which shows a different cover with a wider gap, or is it an outer groove? My newer motor with black spider is more enclosed there. Skestans motor has a black spider so I'd assume it's a newer model and the cover should be the same as mine, hard to tell with all the mess it made.

Thanks for the Jobike link. Given the under-sizing of the axle shaft then movement of the bearing is a possibility. But I guess since the original bearing is firmly retained in place it might not be much of a concern after all. Maybe a circlip simply slid up the axle to the second bearing is enough to stop it from wandering. I read somewhere about using Loctite 648 but that sounds like trouble when it comes time for the next service.
Attachments
old-motor-cover.jpg
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E-bike lover   1 µW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by E-bike lover » Jul 29 2020 10:45pm

amberwolf wrote:
Jul 27 2020 11:30pm

Are you willing to pedal, potentially quite hard/alot, to get what you want?

What specific top speed do you already get?
Mine is mountain bike which has 27 gears. My top speed is 34km/h. It's quite windy here so i think balance of candance and torque would be suitable for me.
Last edited by E-bike lover on Jul 31 2020 9:44pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by E-bike lover » Jul 29 2020 10:50pm

Doohickey wrote:
Jul 28 2020 8:39am
E-bike lover wrote:
Jul 27 2020 4:28pm

2.How does 48v battery works on 36v motor? Will the power exceed 250W? I have seen that if a 48v battery being used on a 36v motor, u could have more speed. Is it 30% more? If i use a 48v battery on 48v motor, the speed will get lower but more torque. What is the maximum speed?
The stock firmware will refuse to work with wrong battery voltage.

On the OSF firmware, the maximum power can be limited to whatever value (watts) you want, irrespective of what motor & battery voltage combo you have installed.

With a 36v motor and 48v battery, you can have higher cadence at the cranks, which does not necessarily mean higher speed (at the wheel). With the "correct" combination of motor and battery, it stops assisting well at around 75 - 80 rpm at the cranks. If you want to pedal faster than that, then the 36v motor, 48v battery combo is useful - with that you can pedal at up to 120rpm if you want.

Again, this is referring to speed at the cranks (cadence) - with 48v motor and 48v battery, you will get "normal" cadence, and "normal" torque at the cranks. With 36v and 48v, you will get a motor that can go to higher cadence, and less torque at the cranks, so you have to pedal faster to get the same amount of power in the end (higher speed / cadence but less torque = same amount of power). Some people want to pedal faster, hence getting this combo. How this affects the final speed at the wheel depends on the gearing of your bike.

However, now the OSF has a kind of "overdrive" mode giving you assistance up to 120rpm even on "correct" motor and voltage combos, IIRC it's a bit inefficient in that high cadence rrange.


E-bike lover wrote:
Jul 27 2020 4:28pm

4.There is a bluetooth function on SW102. Is it able to update the firmware via app or website? Or is it still developing?
I know a bit programming in website.
Link from github doesn't mention:https://github.com/OpenSource-EBike-fir ... _wiki/wiki
You can update the firmware of the sw102 itself via bluetooth and app (that's the only way to do it), however the motor itself still has to be updated via computer (with stlink), and since they both have to have the same version you cannot update everything over just buetooth, so you still need computer. It's theoretically possible if someone implements it, I think.
Thanks for giving me some imagination about the speed. However, i am still curious about the motor's performance when it comes to different configurations because once the motor was setup u couldn't change the hardware(winding differnece). And the key point is that winding would affect the performance? According to what u have said, 36v motor,limit to 250w can have more speed but less torque than 48v motor,limit to 250w. How about if I bought a 48v motor, but limit it to 36v and runs with 48v battery. Will it have the same performance as the true 36v motor?

Can i use this app https://github.com/TSDZ2-ESP32/TSDZ2-ESP32-Wiki/wiki in sw102? If yes, is the update function of motor's controller firmware available? Or is this app can only be used on the board of TSDZ2-ESP32 project?

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by skestans » Jul 30 2020 1:13am

Waynemarlow wrote:Gosh I had forgotten about those seals

Looked up my bearing supplier and low and behold

https://simplybearings.co.uk/shop/Seals ... index.html
Did you find one that fits for replacing the original seal? Mine got all chewed up do I can’t take measurements anymore.

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