New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

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itsallwhite   100 mW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by itsallwhite » Jul 30 2020 1:19am

I just flashed my 48v TSDZ2 motor with the stock firmware following the instructions on the eco-bike.com website and now the motor is completely dead!

There's nothing! The screen still comes on but no power on throttle or PAS...

Anyone else experienced this? Anything I can do to troubleshoot / fix?

(these were the instructions I followed - https://www.eco-ebike.com/blogs/eco-cyc ... rogramming)
Bike 1: Giant Hybrid Steel Frame (old) with TSDZ2 48v 500w.
Bike 2: GT Sensor 2 full suspension mountain bike. Work in Progress - ready to 'electrify'!
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skestans   100 W

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New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by skestans » Jul 30 2020 1:53am

famichiki wrote:
Elinx wrote:
Jul 29 2020 5:39pm
skestans wrote:
Jul 29 2020 2:33pm
Some grey seal fell out of the motor today... ..
Couldn't be that the same stuff (anti seize?) that is noticed here?
famichiki wrote:
Jul 29 2020 5:30pm
When adding a second bearing to the newer axle, how are people retaining it since there's no outer groove for a circlip? .....
No circlip there, just remove the seal and insert the bearing against the circlip and insert the seal again. (Some has used some loctite, but can't finde the source anymore)
http://www.jobike.it/forum/topic.asp?TO ... 39#1311209
It does look like anti-seize but I can't think what purpose it would serve there and why it's made such a mess. My motor only had grease in that area. I found this picture of an older model (with silver spider) which shows a different cover with a wider gap, or is it an outer groove? My newer motor with black spider is more enclosed there. Skestans motor has a black spider so I'd assume it's a newer model and the cover should be the same as mine, hard to tell with all the mess it made.

Thanks for the Jobike link. Given the under-sizing of the axle shaft then movement of the bearing is a possibility. But I guess since the original bearing is firmly retained in place it might not be much of a concern after all. Maybe a circlip simply slid up the axle to the second bearing is enough to stop it from wandering. I read somewhere about using Loctite 648 but that sounds like trouble when it comes time for the next service.
I’ll take mine apart later today to have a look. There is indeed anti seize but it’s probably the anti seize I put on the cranks that somehow spread all over.

What fell out is definitely parts of some kind of silicon seal. And yes I have a black spider, bought the whole thing about 9 months ago so a bit bummed it’s already failing.

I took it apart, and that’s what fell out. 2/3 of it is still in place.

https://imgur.com/a/soqwN4S

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Re: New

Post by famichiki » Jul 30 2020 6:28am

skestans wrote:
Jul 30 2020 1:53am
I took it apart, and that’s what fell out. 2/3 of it is still in place.

https://imgur.com/a/soqwN4S
Is the plastic cover smashed around there too? The photo is a bit too dark to tell.

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eyebyesickle   10 kW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by eyebyesickle » Jul 30 2020 7:08am

itsallwhite wrote:
Jul 30 2020 1:19am
I just flashed my 48v TSDZ2 motor with the stock firmware following the instructions on the eco-bike.com website and now the motor is completely dead!

There's nothing! The screen still comes on but no power on throttle or PAS...

Anyone else experienced this? Anything I can do to troubleshoot / fix?

(these were the instructions I followed - https://www.eco-ebike.com/blogs/eco-cyc ... rogramming)
So, what kind of display do you have?

You might have flashed the option byte to 0...

Make sure you read all first, then load program memory, load data memory, and then save/write all.

If you did not read all, and then chose write all, the option byte got saved with nothing on it. You'll need to load the stockoptionbyte.s19 file and write it to your option byte tab...

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Waynemarlow » Jul 30 2020 7:47am

famichiki wrote:
Jul 29 2020 6:14pm
It does look like anti-seize but I can't think what purpose it would serve there and why it's made such a mess. My motor only had grease in that area. I found this picture of an older model (with silver spider) which shows a different cover with a wider gap, or is it an outer groove? My newer motor with black spider is more enclosed there. Skestans motor has a black spider so I'd assume it's a newer model and the cover should be the same as mine, hard to tell with all the mess it made.
Yes that shot of the cover is of a very early engine, in that groove sits a seal with an outer ring covering it. It is crap and lets in mud and water pretty quickly as we have found out.

Sorry I've not had a chance to follow up on the various seals that we have talked about for the later covers.

The early spiders had only a rubber cover as a seal, the later ones have a proper seal, much better.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Waynemarlow » Jul 30 2020 7:48am

itsallwhite wrote:
Jul 30 2020 1:19am
I just flashed my 48v TSDZ2 motor with the stock firmware following the instructions on the eco-bike.com website and now the motor is completely dead!

There's nothing! The screen still comes on but no power on throttle or PAS...

Anyone else experienced this? Anything I can do to troubleshoot / fix?

(these were the instructions I followed - https://www.eco-ebike.com/blogs/eco-cyc ... rogramming)
Reload the stock options byte.

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Re: New

Post by Waynemarlow » Jul 30 2020 7:52am

skestans wrote:
Jul 30 2020 1:53am

What fell out is definitely parts of some kind of silicon seal. And yes I have a black spider, bought the whole thing about 9 months ago so a bit bummed it’s already failing.

I took it apart, and that’s what fell out. 2/3 of it is still in place.

https://imgur.com/a/soqwN4S
Yup its teh seal that has broken up. Try contacting EcoCycles who maybe getting some seals in. I think we need to regularly take the cover off and re grease the seal locating surface.

ilu   10 W

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Re: New

Post by ilu » Jul 30 2020 8:30am

Waynemarlow wrote:
Jul 30 2020 7:52am
skestans wrote:
Jul 30 2020 1:53am

What fell out is definitely parts of some kind of silicon seal. And yes I have a black spider, bought the whole thing about 9 months ago so a bit bummed it’s already failing.

I took it apart, and that’s what fell out. 2/3 of it is still in place.

https://imgur.com/a/soqwN4S
Yup its teh seal that has broken up. Try contacting EcoCycles who maybe getting some seals in. I think we need to regularly take the cover off and re grease the seal locating surface.
In my second motor this seal came out and was torn to pieces after a few km's. I hadn't removed the cover on that motor at all, so it was assembled somehow improperly in the factory. Now I'm using only silicone molded to the cover, so far so good but no idea how long it will last.

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eyebyesickle   10 kW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by eyebyesickle » Jul 30 2020 8:45am

Ooooh buddy. Narrow Wide 50T w/ 10mm offset getting closer...

Do you know how long I have wanted these?

Ahhhhhhhhh
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skestans   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by skestans » Jul 30 2020 1:12pm

famichiki wrote:
skestans wrote:
Jul 30 2020 1:53am
I took it apart, and that’s what fell out. 2/3 of it is still in place.

https://imgur.com/a/soqwN4S
Is the plastic cover smashed around there too? The photo is a bit too dark to tell.
Yes it’s smashed :(

Here is a clearer shot: https://i.imgur.com/otxB9hY.jpg

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Re: New

Post by famichiki » Jul 30 2020 4:38pm

skestans wrote:
Jul 30 2020 1:12pm
Yes it’s smashed :(

Here is a clearer shot: https://i.imgur.com/otxB9hY.jpg
Do you think the big gear may have been rubbing on it? Do you have much play or wobble in the spider or axle? I wonder if those covers are available separately.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by famichiki » Jul 30 2020 4:42pm

eyebyesickle wrote:
Jul 30 2020 8:45am
Ooooh buddy. Narrow Wide 50T w/ 10mm offset getting closer...

Do you know how long I have wanted these?

Ahhhhhhhhh
Looks great, I noticed you have your own 42T now too. Will the 50T have an identical finish?

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eyebyesickle   10 kW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by eyebyesickle » Jul 30 2020 5:12pm

famichiki wrote:
Jul 30 2020 4:42pm
eyebyesickle wrote:
Jul 30 2020 8:45am
Ooooh buddy. Narrow Wide 50T w/ 10mm offset getting closer...

Do you know how long I have wanted these?

Ahhhhhhhhh
Looks great, I noticed you have your own 42T now too. Will the 50T have an identical finish?
"Any color you want them in as long as it's black"

- Henry Ford

Haha, yeah

famichiki   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by famichiki » Jul 30 2020 5:29pm

eyebyesickle wrote:
Jul 30 2020 5:12pm
"Any color you want them in as long as it's black"

- Henry Ford

Haha, yeah
Are your finished ones anodized? And do you know what the finish on the red Future Bike ones is? It feels like it's painted, but seems fairly hard wearing.

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itsallwhite   100 mW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by itsallwhite » Jul 30 2020 5:59pm

eyebyesickle wrote:
Jul 30 2020 7:08am
itsallwhite wrote:
Jul 30 2020 1:19am
I just flashed my 48v TSDZ2 motor with the stock firmware following the instructions on the eco-bike.com website and now the motor is completely dead!

There's nothing! The screen still comes on but no power on throttle or PAS...

Anyone else experienced this? Anything I can do to troubleshoot / fix?

(these were the instructions I followed - https://www.eco-ebike.com/blogs/eco-cyc ... rogramming)
So, what kind of display do you have?

You might have flashed the option byte to 0...

Make sure you read all first, then load program memory, load data memory, and then save/write all.

If you did not read all, and then chose write all, the option byte got saved with nothing on it. You'll need to load the stockoptionbyte.s19 file and write it to your option byte tab...
Thanks for the info - I will give that a try as soon as I get home, thanks!

Thank you so much this worked! Brilliant - cant thank you enough! Cheers
Last edited by itsallwhite on Jul 31 2020 12:22am, edited 1 time in total.
Bike 1: Giant Hybrid Steel Frame (old) with TSDZ2 48v 500w.
Bike 2: GT Sensor 2 full suspension mountain bike. Work in Progress - ready to 'electrify'!
House: 100% off grid - 5.6kw solar array with selectronics inverter and 24 Volt 1450 Ah BAE Gel battery Bank

famichiki   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by famichiki » Jul 30 2020 10:18pm

Continuing on my quest for removing play.

Adding a shim washer to the sprag clutch/big gear wasn't as effective as I'd hoped. After re-fitting the spider the wobble was reduced but still excessive.

As others have found, the tolerances between sprag clutch and torque sensor are poor and would benefit from sleeving. On mine the little key is also loose and wouldn't hurt to be a better fit.

But the factory sprag clutches have an issue too. Comparing it to the third-party replacement I purchased, the factory item has a much larger radius curvature on each side of the inner race. This means that the flat contact area with the shaft is reduced. The replacement has very minimal curvature and is a much better fit. You can see the differences in the photo below, especially around the key way.
radius.jpg
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Looking at the wear pattern on the torque sensor, we can see that even though the sprag clutch is specified at 16mm thick the contact area is only about 10mm

In comparison, the replacement sprag clutch has a wider contact area of about 13.5mm.
contact-area.jpg
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Original sprag clutch.
sprag-clutch-original.jpg
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Replacement sprag clutch.
sprag-clutch-replacement.jpg
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Additionally, the torque sensor has a small protrustion that the sprag clutch sits up against. Fitting the shim here like on the older models may be better than on the circlip side.
torque-sensor-protrusion.jpg
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I also experimented with using aluminium foil as a shim, this actually worked really well with the original sprag clutch. There was still play but it's within the sprag clutch and so we are stuck with it. The best I can measure is that the foil is 0.07mm thick. It was a tight fit and you need to grease the foil and work slowly or it catches and tears. I needed to gently tap mine on.

Finding shim or feeler gauge in this thickness is difficult and can be expensive, but a quick search turned up this.
https://us.misumi-ec.com/vona2/detail/110300238820/

Edit.. I just bought some assorted brass shim sheet cheap.
foil.jpg
foil.jpg (101.63 KiB) Viewed 174 times

skestans   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by skestans » Jul 31 2020 1:27am

famichiki wrote:
skestans wrote:
Jul 30 2020 1:12pm
Yes it’s smashed :(

Here is a clearer shot: https://i.imgur.com/otxB9hY.jpg
Do you think the big gear may have been rubbing on it? Do you have much play or wobble in the spider or axle? I wonder if those covers are available separately.
I tried to find out but I can’t understand how it happened. There is no wobble and no rubbing marks on that spot on the spider. Total mystery. I have another bike and I bought the motor at the same time, and on that one the cover is intact even though it has more or less the same number of km.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by skestans » Jul 31 2020 3:51am

So anyway, I have found replacement plastic covers on aliexpress: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/33009857653.html but where do you get the seals?

The original seller (EUNORAU) is being an ass, saying there is no way this broke on its own, so it's not covered by their warranty, and so I have to pay 25 USD for shipping a new seal... Not recommending that store to anyone anymore!

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by famichiki » Jul 31 2020 4:42am

skestans wrote:
Jul 31 2020 3:51am
So anyway, I have found replacement plastic covers on aliexpress: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/33009857653.html but where do you get the seals?

The original seller (EUNORAU) is being an ass, saying there is no way this broke on its own, so it's not covered by their warranty, and so I have to pay 25 USD for shipping a new seal... Not recommending that store to anyone anymore!
See this post...
viewtopic.php?f=28&t=79788&start=7475#p1573212

Good to know where to find the covers, cheers.

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Re: New

Post by Waynemarlow » Jul 31 2020 5:35am

famichiki wrote:
Jul 30 2020 4:38pm
skestans wrote:
Jul 30 2020 1:12pm
Yes it’s smashed :(

Here is a clearer shot: https://i.imgur.com/otxB9hY.jpg
Do you think the big gear may have been rubbing on it? Do you have much play or wobble in the spider or axle? I wonder if those covers are available separately.
Yup, they are so cheap as to keep one in stock
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Bicycle-Moto ... SwR4JfGcmt

skestans   100 W

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Re: New

Post by skestans » Jul 31 2020 6:38am

Waynemarlow wrote:
Jul 31 2020 5:35am
famichiki wrote:
Jul 30 2020 4:38pm
skestans wrote:
Jul 30 2020 1:12pm
Yes it’s smashed :(

Here is a clearer shot: https://i.imgur.com/otxB9hY.jpg
Do you think the big gear may have been rubbing on it? Do you have much play or wobble in the spider or axle? I wonder if those covers are available separately.
Yup, they are so cheap as to keep one in stock
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Bicycle-Moto ... SwR4JfGcmt
That's the old version though, be aware there is a 3 screws and a 4 screws version depending on what motor revision you have. I'll ask if they sell seals too.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Waynemarlow » Jul 31 2020 8:49am

Asked but no only the covers seem available. I wasn't aware there are two different styles of the cover on the later engines.

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Re: New

Post by Waynemarlow » Jul 31 2020 11:04am

skestans wrote:
Jul 31 2020 1:27am
famichiki wrote:
skestans wrote:
Jul 30 2020 1:12pm
Yes it’s smashed :(

Here is a clearer shot: https://i.imgur.com/otxB9hY.jpg
Do you think the big gear may have been rubbing on it? Do you have much play or wobble in the spider or axle? I wonder if those covers are available separately.
I tried to find out but I can’t understand how it happened. There is no wobble and no rubbing marks on that spot on the spider. Total mystery. I have another bike and I bought the motor at the same time, and on that one the cover is intact even though it has more or less the same number of km.
We've had the same on 1 cover and we put that down to the extreme mud condition we were in at the time. Our cover was simply worn away by the abrasiveness of the mud and the spider turning with the peddles.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by skestans » Jul 31 2020 2:55pm

I looked behind the plastic cover and there is no trace of the seal. I have no idea where it went because what I got out was only about a third of the total diameter. I expected to find the rest of it chewed up by the gears or something.

Does it sit in the plastic cover’s lip normally?

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Waynemarlow » Jul 31 2020 3:57pm

Look up how an XRing seal works and you'll understand that the Oring part is actually stretched over the bearing and can't slide, its the outer lip that then seals against the inner section of where the seal sits within that plastic cover. Seems odd and contrary to a normal seal.

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