New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

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AF7JA   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by AF7JA » Jul 31 2020 5:07pm

eyebyesickle wrote:
Jul 30 2020 8:45am
Ooooh buddy. Narrow Wide 50T w/ 10mm offset getting closer...

Do you know how long I have wanted these?

Ahhhhhhhhh
Where did you get it?

Elinx   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Elinx » Jul 31 2020 5:51pm

Waynemarlow wrote:
Jul 31 2020 3:57pm
Look up how an XRing seal works ....
Could a standard V seal fit also? I don't know the width from the stock seal. ID=80mm OD=86mm W= ?
VA80 or VA080 needs a support width of 6.8mm and seals max.width of 10.2mm, but OD is imho 98mm, which is a lot more than 86mm, but I don't know how this fit with the plastic cover.
X seal standard dimension of X0041 looks imho too small, thickness is width too 1,78mm (OD~83,5mm)

Standard V and X seal dimensions:
V seal dimensions
X seal dimensions

Edit:
XR is also an X ring, but wider W=3,5mm
https://sealware.de/customer/showproducts/catid/xringe

price indication

famichiki   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by famichiki » Jul 31 2020 8:13pm

Elinx wrote:
Jul 31 2020 5:51pm
Could a standard V seal fit also? I don't know the width from the stock seal. ID=80mm OD=86mm W= ?
VA80 or VA080 needs a support width of 6.8mm and seals max.width of 10.2mm, but OD is imho 98mm, which is a lot more than 86mm, but I don't know how this fit with the plastic cover.
X seal standard dimension of X0041 looks imho too small, thickness is width too 1,78mm (OD~83,5mm)

Standard V and X seal dimensions:
V seal dimensions
X seal dimensions

Edit:
XR is also an X ring, but wider W=3,5mm
https://sealware.de/customer/showproducts/catid/xringe

price indication
The factory seal is 4mm thick (from face of big gear) and 3mm wide. The rise on the big gear is 8mm. The internal rise on the cover is about 4.5mm. There is a couple of mm gap under the cover, so the seal is only partially seated within it. But so far I can't find anything better that will fit.

It's a shame there's no complete seal, bearing or other improvement kits etc available for this motor. It's been a real pain hunting around for the various bits, even the big circlip is an odd thickness (1.2mm) and not easily available here.

skestans   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by skestans » Aug 01 2020 12:19am

Waynemarlow wrote:Look up how an XRing seal works and you'll understand that the Oring part is actually stretched over the bearing and can't slide, its the outer lip that then seals against the inner section of where the seal sits within that plastic cover. Seems odd and contrary to a normal seal.
Im having trouble imagining it, and Wikipedia didn’t help much.

Do you mean that when it stretches over what it seals, the outer tips of the X kinda bend inwards so that the tips of the X end up touching each other and that’s what makes the lip of the seal, pressing against the surface to seal? Basically the X turns into an 8?

Retrorockit   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Retrorockit » Aug 01 2020 5:35am

The Xring seal has one inner, and one outer lip facing in, and 1 each facing out.
Lubricant for the seal can stay clean on the shaft and bore in between the 2 lips. It's a 2 way seal.
It slides on both the shaft and in the bore for low friction. So it will seem loose compared to other seals.

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feketehegyi   10 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by feketehegyi » Aug 01 2020 10:09am

fyi, my latest mod: DIY throttle on 6 pin model .
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=P ... tcmsNGWe6a

Ilyak   1 µW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Ilyak » Aug 01 2020 10:32pm

Apologies if this is a silly question. Have just installed a tsdz2 and looking at simplest upgrade to open source and cooling.
Has anyone tried just putting transformer oil in casing around motor and/or in void in plastic cover under sprocket to add thermal conductivity and also thermal mass to absorb power peaks?
Would seem to avoid needing to dismantle extensively and will avoid hotspots, keep waterproof.
Is it difficult to keep sealed in or does it interfere with grease?

michih.   100 mW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by michih. » Aug 02 2020 1:11am

Is it possible to flash the new 2020 controllers?

Mfg Michael

Doohickey   1 mW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Doohickey » Aug 02 2020 2:15am

Ilyak wrote:
Aug 01 2020 10:32pm
Apologies if this is a silly question. Have just installed a tsdz2 and looking at simplest upgrade to open source and cooling.
Has anyone tried just putting transformer oil in casing around motor and/or in void in plastic cover under sprocket to add thermal conductivity and also thermal mass to absorb power peaks?
Would seem to avoid needing to dismantle extensively and will avoid hotspots, keep waterproof.
Is it difficult to keep sealed in or does it interfere with grease?
The motor is not sealed, so it will make it's way into the inside of the inner motor (i.e. the rotor / magnets / windings), and from there will make it's way though the gears and leak out.

IIRC someone tried it way back in this thread.

Elinx   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Elinx » Aug 02 2020 4:35am

Ilyak wrote:
Aug 01 2020 10:32pm
... cooling.
Has anyone tried just putting transformer oil in casing around motor a.....
For cooling there is also a seperate topic where the most solutions (from different topics too) are listed.
NexusG has experience with filling the TSDZ2 with engine oil

famichiki   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by famichiki » Aug 02 2020 7:32am

Is this a roller bearing and is it somehow removable? Does anybody know the bearing code of it?
Attachments
torque-sensor.jpg
torque-sensor.jpg (38.59 KiB) Viewed 167 times

Elinx   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Elinx » Aug 02 2020 9:54am

famichiki wrote:
Aug 02 2020 7:32am
Is this a roller bearing and is it somehow removable? Does anybody know the bearing code of it?
It is a needle bearing HK2212
But there is mentioned also the HK2214 or even HK2216

johncvg   10 µW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by johncvg » Aug 02 2020 1:25pm

Newbie here so please be gentle ....

Converted my very standard road bike with the TSDZ2 and battery from pswpower around 6 weeks ago and delighted with the results.
But has got progressively noisier until now it is an embarrasment to ride...

The noise is only present when the motor is giving power -- when free wheeling or e.g. +25km it immediately stops ..
It is a howling grinding sound like metal against metal.

pswpower have offered to replace the part that is broken so I stripped the motor down today expecting to find loads of damaged parts and iron filings only to find ... nothing.. :(
I haven't got a circlip pliers large enough to get the main cover plate off to see the large gear wheel/ sprag clutch but the motor, blue gear etc etc look all very clean and in good condition -- have only done 450kms on it.
My question is does anyone have an idea what is the source of the noise -- I suspect the "big gear" http://www.pswpower.com/ven.php?cargo.2017-2s-mact or the "blue gear" clutches but have no experience of this to know for sure?

here is a short vid with the noise .. it stops as soon as the pedalling stops
https://www.dropbox.com/s/th0ed975f6qbf ... e.mp4?dl=0

Any advice gratefully accepted..
Thanks

Jaybee258   10 µW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Jaybee258 » Aug 02 2020 2:53pm

casainho wrote:
Jul 16 2020 12:12pm
Jaybee258 wrote:
Jul 16 2020 12:07pm
Hi Guys
Apologies if this is not the right place for this type of help, but here goes.
I got my 860 display and TSDZ2 flashed and installed on my bike, but there are some issues.....
1. It takes 50 seconds to boot up
2. The screen shows " error brakes" on the black and white intro screen. There are no brake sensors fitted.
3. At this point, the only way ahead is via the configuration screen.
4. The configuration menus seem to work fine and I can then go to the main screen
5. There is only one main screen
6. I can change the indicated assist levels, but that is about it on the main screen.
7. On cycling, there is no electrical assist power to the wheels, no speed is shown and no power is indicated.
8. In ' technical' everything remains at 0 while cycling.
9. The battery shows full but reads 0.0v

I have changed some default settings for the wheel, battery and motor, but just basic ones. The flashing seemed to be successful at the time. Has anybody got any ideas of what to try next?

There are some great people on this forum freely offering time and knowledge, so a big thanks in advance. Also a big thanks for all the development from casainho and his willing team. Well done guys
TSDZ2 motor is not initializing, hence the error "error brakes" because could be the brakes active also. Make sure you did flash the firmware on TSDZ2 and the UART tx and rx connections are ok.
Still struggling I am sorry, we have reflashed the motor but I think that this was ok already. We have a 8 pin loom, so with the throttle connection. All we are left with is a display to motor controller wiring problem I think. We have followed the following pattern. I quote the Bafang colour first, .... Brown to blue, orange to red, black to black, green to brown, white to yellow. Watched the jbalatufube video where he had crossed TX and RX. Maybe we have done the same? Does anyone have a definitive mapping of the colours to connect a Bafang 860c to an 8 wire look please? Again, the symptom is that when we power up the display, we see 'error brakes'. Many thanks all.

famichiki   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by famichiki » Aug 02 2020 3:14pm

Elinx wrote:
Aug 02 2020 9:54am
famichiki wrote:
Aug 02 2020 7:32am
Is this a roller bearing and is it somehow removable? Does anybody know the bearing code of it?
It is a needle bearing HK2212
But there is mentioned also the HK2214 or even HK2216
So there are two roller bearings used on the torque sensor? Because there is one visible on the other end from the non-drive side. I found the newer models use 2214 and older 2212.

viewtopic.php?f=28&t=79788&start=7500#p1573878

Also that bearing list is incomplete and a bit strange (carter side?). The other Google translated versions from Jobike posted on here are hard to understand too, I'll see if I can put together a better one.

Elinx   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Elinx » Aug 02 2020 4:28pm

famichiki wrote:
Aug 02 2020 3:14pm
.......
So there are two roller bearings used on the torque sensor? Because there is one visible on the other end from the non-drive side......
No, there is just one bearing on the torque sensor (HK2214 as you said, ID=22mm)
The other one on the non drive side is one roller bearing (6902RS ID=15mm) on new type and two on old type TSDZ2 axle.
On the drive side there is the sprag clutch bearing (CSK30P, ID=30mm).

famichiki   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by famichiki » Aug 02 2020 4:49pm

Elinx wrote:
Aug 02 2020 4:28pm
No, there is just one bearing on the torque sensor (HK2214 as you said, ID=22mm)
The other one on the non drive side is one roller bearing (6902RS ID=15mm) on new type and two on old type TSDZ2 axle.
On the drive side there is the sprag clutch bearing (CSK30P, ID=30mm).
This photo from the repair guide (and my previous photo) show a roller bearing on the non-drive side which sits up against that axle bearing. The wear marks on the torque sensor indicate where it fits. However I'm not sure if there is an additional roller bearing on the drive side end of the torque sensor, is it just a bushing? There's some additional hi-res pics in this post:
viewtopic.php?t=79788&start=6350#p1520207
Attachments
roller-bearing1.jpg
roller-bearing1.jpg (50.73 KiB) Viewed 99 times
roller-bearing2.jpg
roller-bearing2.jpg (72.49 KiB) Viewed 99 times
Last edited by famichiki on Aug 02 2020 5:06pm, edited 1 time in total.

Elinx   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Elinx » Aug 02 2020 5:05pm

famichiki wrote:
Aug 02 2020 4:49pm
......
However I'm not sure if there is an additional roller bearing on the drive side end of the torque sensor, is it just a bushing?
This is what I see of the torque sensor in another picture (I have added the bearingtypes)
The yellow question mark on your picture is the HK2214
bearingplaces.jpg
bearingplaces.jpg (17.74 KiB) Viewed 94 times

famichiki   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by famichiki » Aug 02 2020 5:13pm

Elinx wrote:
Aug 02 2020 5:05pm
This is what I see of the torque sensor in another picture (I have added the bearingtypes)
The yellow question mark on your picture is the HK2214
bearingplaces.jpg
Right, well it looks like there's actually two then but the other isn't shown on your diagram. One captive on the torque sensor at the drive side, and another the torque sensor slides into on the non-drive side up against 6902RS. If you look at my previous photo you can see the marking on the non-drive one is also HK2214.

How to remove the drive side one is the question. It looks like you need to unscrew the plate on the torque sensor and somehow disconnect the wiring, unless that all sits below the circumference of the torque sensor shaft?

Edit: Nope.. it looks to be captive. Has anyone here actually removed theirs?
roller-bearing3.jpg
roller-bearing3.jpg (31.42 KiB) Viewed 85 times

Elinx   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Elinx » Aug 02 2020 6:11pm

famichiki wrote:
Aug 02 2020 5:13pm
.....
Right, well it looks like there's actually two then but the other isn't shown on your diagram. .....
This picture shows 2x HK2214 bearings, but that is the only one I could find here.

So the diagram would be:
bearingplaces2.jpg
bearingplaces2.jpg (20.01 KiB) Viewed 82 times
Last edited by Elinx on Aug 02 2020 6:21pm, edited 1 time in total.

famichiki   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by famichiki » Aug 02 2020 6:19pm

Elinx wrote:
Aug 02 2020 6:11pm
famichiki wrote:
Aug 02 2020 5:13pm
.....
Right, well it looks like there's actually two then but the other isn't shown on your diagram. .....
This picture shows 2x HK2214 bearings, but that is the only one I could find here.
Thanks. Sounds like they ran into the same problem, I wonder if they ever managed to get the captive bearing off. I may just try to inject or pack extra grease under there somehow.
safeaschuck wrote:
May 10 2020 8:31am
Also my 2mm wider high quality needle roller bearings have arrived, I will fit them next time I have the motor apart. Does anyone know the best way to disconnect the hall sensor?

Balmorhea   10 kW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Balmorhea » Aug 02 2020 7:55pm

Wow. It looks like they chose to use a grievously undersized crank spindle diameter for no real reason at all, given that most of the spindle is 22mm. Awesome.

famichiki   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by famichiki » Aug 02 2020 7:57pm

As much as I can tell, it looks like the older versions of the motors were put together better and with closer tolerances. Older models have the double non-drive side bearings, proper shims on the axle and sprag clutch, and a tighter fitting sprag clutch with wider inner race contact area that was difficult to remove without a puller. On the newer model the sprag clutch fitment is sloppy and it just slips off by hand. Compare the photo below with the ones in my previous post here:
viewtopic.php?f=28&t=79788&start=7525#p1574456
puller.jpg
puller.jpg (62.64 KiB) Viewed 74 times
jbalat-sprag-clutch.jpg
jbalat-sprag-clutch.jpg (221.75 KiB) Viewed 74 times

knutselmaaster   1 kW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by knutselmaaster » Aug 03 2020 1:22am

johncvg wrote:
Aug 02 2020 1:25pm
Newbie here so please be gentle ....

Converted my very standard road bike with the TSDZ2 and battery from pswpower around 6 weeks ago and delighted with the results.
But has got progressively noisier until now it is an embarrasment to ride...

The noise is only present when the motor is giving power -- when free wheeling or e.g. +25km it immediately stops ..
It is a howling grinding sound like metal against metal.

pswpower have offered to replace the part that is broken so I stripped the motor down today expecting to find loads of damaged parts and iron filings only to find ... nothing.. :(
I haven't got a circlip pliers large enough to get the main cover plate off to see the large gear wheel/ sprag clutch but the motor, blue gear etc etc look all very clean and in good condition -- have only done 450kms on it.
My question is does anyone have an idea what is the source of the noise -- I suspect the "big gear" http://www.pswpower.com/ven.php?cargo.2017-2s-mact or the "blue gear" clutches but have no experience of this to know for sure?

here is a short vid with the noise .. it stops as soon as the pedalling stops
https://www.dropbox.com/s/th0ed975f6qbf ... e.mp4?dl=0

Any advice gratefully accepted..
Thanks
On some bikes, the big gear housing (just behind the chain wheel) is pushing against the bike frame (the horizontal chainstay) when the motor is tightened. This pushes the housing against the big gear with loud noise as a result.
If that is the case, you should see scraping marks on the inside of the housing.
To resolve this, put a big ring / shim between the motor and the frame (bottom bracket) so that the whole motor moves to the right.
The housing should be free all around, only touching the frame in the middle at the bottom bracket.

mctubster   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by mctubster » Aug 03 2020 2:24am

johncvg wrote:
Aug 02 2020 1:25pm
Newbie here so please be gentle ....

Converted my very standard road bike with the TSDZ2 and battery from pswpower around 6 weeks ago and delighted with the results.
But has got progressively noisier until now it is an embarrasment to ride...

The noise is only present when the motor is giving power -- when free wheeling or e.g. +25km it immediately stops ..
It is a howling grinding sound like metal against metal.

pswpower have offered to replace the part that is broken so I stripped the motor down today expecting to find loads of damaged parts and iron filings only to find ... nothing.. :(
I haven't got a circlip pliers large enough to get the main cover plate off to see the large gear wheel/ sprag clutch but the motor, blue gear etc etc look all very clean and in good condition -- have only done 450kms on it.
My question is does anyone have an idea what is the source of the noise -- I suspect the "big gear" http://www.pswpower.com/ven.php?cargo.2017-2s-mact or the "blue gear" clutches but have no experience of this to know for sure?

here is a short vid with the noise .. it stops as soon as the pedalling stops
https://www.dropbox.com/s/th0ed975f6qbf ... e.mp4?dl=0

Any advice gratefully accepted..
Thanks
If the motor is off and you pedal do you still get the noise at all? I don't remember removing a circlip to take the drive side cover off?

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