New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Discussions related to motors other than hub motors.
This includes R/C motors, botttom bracket, roller and geared drives.
Mr.Flibble   10 mW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Mr.Flibble » Oct 19 2020 5:06am

Balmorhea wrote:
Oct 14 2020 3:01am
LeftCoastNurd wrote:
Oct 13 2020 1:15am
many bicycle riders never exceed a cadence of 60 rpm... does that mean they are not 'cyclists' ?
Yes. Mainly it means they're not even trying.

I ran on the Circuit Of The Americas track tonight during Bike Night. I pedaled up to about 39 mph with a 52/13 top gear. If an old fat guy can put in about 120 rpm, anybody can do 90, which is considered the starting point for performance cycling. Since we have help, we should be able to spin faster than that.

Any pedal assist system that stops just as a real cyclist is getting going should be rejected out of hand. There are other reasons TSDZ2 should be rejected out of hand, though.
It's the laws of physics!!

The BBS goes higher because it's geared differently and turns slower for a given cadence.
This is why Force weakening has been added to the free firmware.

It's designed for the millions of Chinese commuters and cargo bikes, not serious Western cyclists. If you want that, cough up your 6k+ for a Brose or a Bosch.

Balmorhea   1 MW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Balmorhea » Oct 19 2020 1:25pm

Mr.Flibble wrote:
Oct 19 2020 5:06am
Balmorhea wrote:
Oct 14 2020 3:01am
LeftCoastNurd wrote:
Oct 13 2020 1:15am
many bicycle riders never exceed a cadence of 60 rpm... does that mean they are not 'cyclists' ?
Any pedal assist system that stops just as a real cyclist is getting going should be rejected out of hand. There are other reasons TSDZ2 should be rejected out of hand, though.
It's the laws of physics!!

The BBS goes higher because it's geared differently and turns slower for a given cadence.
This is why Force weakening has been added to the free firmware.

It's designed for the millions of Chinese commuters and cargo bikes, not serious Western cyclists. If you want that, cough up your 6k+ for a Brose or a Bosch.
In my book, it’s the rider who uses a bike for essential transportation, and not only for fooling around, who is the serious cyclist. But everyone who rides regularly knows that if you want to make a lot of pedal power, you have to pedal fast. That’s the same all over the world.

My BBS02 turned plenty fast on 48V; just about as fast as my legs can go. But I haven’t had one of those in a while. I use front hub motors now because I get enough practice fixing other peoples bikes, and I don’t need new reasons to have to fix mine.

I think it would be cool if there were a reliable, well-designed torque sensing motor unit that were retrofittable to a regular bike. But the TSDZ2 brings those two deal breakers even before you find out that it shuts down when you turn up the power.
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Finish Reconstruction.

Waynemarlow   1 kW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Waynemarlow » Oct 19 2020 1:59pm

You obviously dont fix bikes then, they are not the most reliable of things. To put things into perspective I have more things fail on my bike than I do the motor, so I guess on a bike measure of relaibility,the motor is more relaible than a bike.

ilu   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by ilu » Oct 19 2020 4:34pm

Yea as mentioned several times already, there are different ways to get the cadence higher. But apparently this guy just does not want to get it, so no point arguing with him. I wonder why he's still so fixed on reading this thread though.

markz   100 GW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by markz » Oct 19 2020 6:59pm

Waynemarlow wrote:
Oct 19 2020 1:59pm
You obviously dont fix bikes then, they are not the most reliable of things. To put things into perspective I have more things fail on my bike than I do the motor, so I guess on a bike measure of relaibility,the motor is more relaible than a bike.
Whats breaking down on your bicycle more so then ebike components?
A mid drive already puts more then human power through the drive train, a bicycle drive train not engineered for super human wattage.
A hub motor wouldnt break down, especially a direct drive, but you still can have other ebike components break on you. Most common is the throttle, or spokes, or tubes.

Balmorhea   1 MW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Balmorhea » Oct 20 2020 12:36am

Waynemarlow wrote:
Oct 19 2020 1:59pm
To put things into perspective I have more things fail on my bike than I do the motor, so I guess on a bike measure of relaibility,the motor is more relaible than a bike.
Some; not all. Surely there are many garbage bikes that can't cross the street without a problem, but most people who own them can't discern a problem anyway.

The only e-motors I've used or serviced that matched the reliability of good cycle components have been direct drive hub motors. My BBS02 needed more attention than everything else on the bike combined, other than the chains and sprockets it chewed up regularly. I gave it to someone else when I switched, but now it's back in my possession so I can fix a crapped-out pedal sensor. Oh joy.
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Finish Reconstruction.

Waynemarlow   1 kW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Waynemarlow » Oct 20 2020 3:48am

So stick with hub motors, whats the problem ? In my useage I would destroy a hub motor on probably the first ride, we do a lot of low speed climbing where the hub motor would be only rotating a few 10's of rpm at near full power, the heat generated would cook every bearing in it. If we used a geared hub motor then the weight on the hub would make the bike unrideable in steep single track so thats not an avenue either. So for me a hub motor is non starter.

However for a road commuter I have my views that a hub motor is probably a good thing to have.

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jbalat   10 kW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by jbalat » Oct 20 2020 6:25pm

Waynemarlow wrote:
Oct 20 2020 3:48am
So stick with hub motors, whats the problem ? In my useage I would destroy a hub motor on probably the first ride, we do a lot of low speed climbing where the hub motor would be only rotating a few 10's of rpm at near full power, the heat generated would cook every bearing in it. If we used a geared hub motor then the weight on the hub would make the bike unrideable in steep single track so thats not an avenue either. So for me a hub motor is non starter.

However for a road commuter I have my views that a hub motor is probably a good thing to have.
Unless you buy a stealth bomber. I originally had a 13kg hub motor (crystalite x5404) on a wide 24" back wheel and it could easily handle up to 10kw without overheating. It could climb anything without even slowing down :) Fortunately I have moved on from there and I'm happier with the torque sensing experience when mountain bike riding on my Trek Powerfly and TSDZ2 and less weight in the back wheel helps the bike handle and Jump a lot better too!
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Wapous   1 mW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Wapous » Oct 22 2020 6:54pm

Thoughts on my torque sensor.
The Stator part must move towards the Rotor part thanks to the three springs and thus exert an ideal friction force on the Rotor.
The three springs located under the Stator ensure close contact with the Rotor and guarantee good durability of the torque sensor.
But if the Rotor exerts too much pressure on the Stator, the three springs will be completely compressed and the life of the torque sensor will be reduced. With an incorrectly adjusted rotor my torque sensor died after 8000 km.
It is therefore important to ensure the travel of the three springs located under the stator. The measurement is dependent on the tolerances of the machining. It looks like a distance of around 1mm between the rotor rim and the shims is a good start.
The important thing is to ensure the travel of the three springs. To ensure the travel after mounting the torque sensor, gently pull the electrical connection of the torque sensor in order to feel the travel of the springs. Very gently!


Regarding the rapid wear of the torque sensor of my TSDZ2 motor.

After analysis I understood why the torque sensor was incorrectly mounted in my engine at the factory. The technician has certainly added the shims to ensure the correct travel of the three springs. But when he wanted to mount the final Retaining Ring which retains the torque sensor assembly to the engine, he noticed a machining error in the engine tubing. So he removed all the shims in order to be able to fit the C-clip causing total compression of the three springs and premature wear.
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dameri   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by dameri » Oct 23 2020 1:45am

@Wapous. Great writing and pictures. Where could I order Teflon washers for torque sensor? If you order a new torque sensor, no washers are included. Some stores sells torque sensor with springs and others sells only torque sensor without springs.

Wapous   1 mW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Wapous » Oct 23 2020 3:13am

dameri wrote:
Oct 23 2020 1:45am
@Wapous. Great writing and pictures. Where could I order Teflon washers for torque sensor? If you order a new torque sensor, no washers are included. Some stores sells torque sensor with springs and others sells only torque sensor without springs.
You will need to order the material in bulk and trim the washers yourself.
Aliexpress Supplier (good service): https://www.aliexpress.com/item/3296757 ... 4c4ddaeMzb
You can order 0.5mm or 0.3mm Teflon sheets. I recommend 0.3mm for a precise fit. I installed 3X 0.3mm washers instead of 2X 0.5mm washers.

dameri   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by dameri » Oct 23 2020 3:44am

Wapous wrote:
Oct 23 2020 3:13am
dameri wrote:
Oct 23 2020 1:45am
@Wapous. Great writing and pictures. Where could I order Teflon washers for torque sensor? If you order a new torque sensor, no washers are included. Some stores sells torque sensor with springs and others sells only torque sensor without springs.
You will need to order the material in bulk and trim the washers yourself.
Aliexpress Supplier (good service): https://www.aliexpress.com/item/3296757 ... 4c4ddaeMzb
You can order 0.5mm or 0.3mm Teflon sheets. I recommend 0.3mm for a precise fit. I installed 3X 0.3mm washers instead of 2X 0.5mm washers.
Thank you for information.

Jaybee258   1 mW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Jaybee258 » Oct 24 2020 6:12am

Morning all. We have flashed the TSDZ2 with the V20 Beta 1 software from https://github.com/emmebrusa/TSDZ2-Smart-EBike-1 and want to update the 860C firmware to match. Is this possible please? We are doing this as we are struggling to get the 860C display talking to the TSDZ2 with the V1.0 software and so are using the emmebrusa fork that allows up to configure the TSDZ2 software BEFORE it is flashed into the controller. We are currently running this with the stock LCD5 display which is fine until we need to reconfigure which of course means reflashing the motor again. Many thanks all.

Swannking   10 mW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Swannking » Oct 24 2020 6:11pm

Swannking wrote:
Oct 10 2020 9:01am
Elinx wrote:
Oct 08 2020 1:10pm
Jaybee258 wrote:
Oct 08 2020 3:13am
...... I like the heat sinks that you made. That's the first time I've seen that done. ....
Not exactly the first time.
I think andrea_104kg was the first experimenting with a sort of heatsinks.
QuirkyOrk and Owskov also placed heatsinks on the housing.
Swannking wrote:
Oct 08 2020 1:08pm
.... I would like to add the heat sink also. Looks like u screwed then onto the housing. I think using JB weld should work also and more simple.
That should be working too. Heat resistant glue could also be an option

Besides heatsinks there are more options to control the temperature of the Tsdz2.
Most of them are mentioned in this topic.
I did read those suggestions and did the modification. I like the heat sink idea to help dissipate the heat but don’t have the source for heat sink which is low profile and not looking like a mad science project when it’s put on the motor.
I finally got to adding heat sinks to the motor. I got the 10x10x10mm mini heat sink from amazon and glued them on the housing using arctic silver adhesive.
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Swannking   10 mW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Swannking » Oct 26 2020 12:39pm

Finished up the heat sink modification.
Supplies used:
10x10x10mm heat sink x 39 pieces
22x22x10mm heat sink x 4
5 gr arctic silver
Total cost: about $40USD
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famichiki   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by famichiki » Oct 26 2020 6:06pm

I received a couple of spare parts recently and there were some interesting changes. First, the blue gear 609RS end ball bearing was very firmly fixed in place whereas it would spin within the gear on the one that came with my motor. And now the drive side cover has a small amount of machining done to the inside to help stop any rubbing of the big gear.
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Elinx   1 kW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Elinx » Oct 27 2020 5:11am

Jaybee258 wrote:
Oct 24 2020 6:12am
.... flashed the TSDZ2 with the V20 Beta 1 .....want to update the 860C firmware to match. Is this possible please? .....
No this isn't possible. There are 4 forks of the OSF and you have to choose which you want to use.
Every fork is developed for a certain display and has advantages and disadvantages.
You decide which is most important for you.

1-KT-LCD3 by casainho and buba
2-850C-860C-SW102 by casainho
3-Vlcd5-Vlcd6-XH18 by mbrusa
4-Bluetooth/Android by mspider65

casainho   10 GW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by casainho » Oct 27 2020 5:17am

Elinx wrote:
Oct 27 2020 5:11am
Jaybee258 wrote:
Oct 24 2020 6:12am
.... flashed the TSDZ2 with the V20 Beta 1 .....want to update the 860C firmware to match. Is this possible please? .....
No this isn't possible. There are 4 forks of the OSF and you have to choose which you want to use.
Every fork is developed for a certain display and has advantages and disadvantages.
You decide which is most important for you.

1-KT-LCD3 by casainho and buba
2-850C-860C-SW102 by casainho
3-Vlcd5-Vlcd6-XH18 by mbrusa
4-Bluetooth/Android by mspider65
No one should consider KT-LCD3 firmware option as it is outdated, it misses the last good new features that makes TSDZ2 a great option.

Option 850C-860C-SW102 is the one that I keep up to date so is the one I recommend.

I can't talk by options 3 and 4, I don't know how updated they are.
- TSDZ2 FAQ: issues and repairs, etc
- TSDZ2 OpenSource firmware

Developer of OpenSource knowledge and technology for ebikes: Wireless Ebike boar ANT+ and Bluetooth, Flexible OpenSource firmware for EBikes: TSDZ2 mid drive motor, KT motor controllers and displays: Bafang 850C color, SW102 Bluetooth and KT-LCD3.

If you like my work, please consider making a donation to help my developments: paypal.me/jorgecasa

Elinx   1 kW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Elinx » Oct 27 2020 7:21am

casainho wrote:
Oct 27 2020 5:17am
......
No one should consider KT-LCD3 firmware option as it is outdated, it misses the last good new features that makes TSDZ2 a great option.

Option 850C-860C-SW102 is the one that I keep up to date so is the one I recommend.

I can't talk by options 3 and 4, I don't know how updated they are.
With updates it has also to do with expectations and if you want to jump to another display, but as I can see are option 2 and 4 the most up to date versions with fieldweakening for more effective higher cadence.
So imho it is the following update order: 2, 4, 3, 1

volcamin   10 µW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by volcamin » Oct 27 2020 12:12pm

Hi! I have ridden my excelent tsdz with osf for 600km now, it was in storage for 6months because problem with the battery. The motor made this strange creaking sound when under load and was outputting lots of torque, I filmed this video back then and now go new battery and the noice still haunts me :( Any ideas what could cause this? I opened the motor, cleaned and re-greased everything 6months ago, with no effect
Video of the sound https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7YkTqahKT-o

Thank you very much, awesome motor and excellent community :bigthumb:

Edit: In the video you can see the seal around the axle is pretty deep, would that maybe allowed some dirt to get in the axle space, that's the only thin I did not touch back then because I feared I would break the torque sensor

sysrq   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by sysrq » Oct 28 2020 12:40pm

What's the size of the external circlip on sparg clutch axle. Guessing by manual it's 30mm. Thinking about regreasing the secondary gear after 500km only, since it seems to be noisy again. Could be due to cold weather 7°C.
On a previous day at 12°C there didn't seem to be any gritty growling noise similar to struggling tractor.

bergerandfries   1 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by bergerandfries » Oct 28 2020 9:57pm

So this thread had some posts about TSDZ2 wearing out standard bicycle parts in the drive train. I had the following damage to my freehub which I suspect was caused by 500W motor power plus my 250W on the smallest cog on the rear hub. The left bit is the inner race with a broken ridge, middle bit is the broken ridge piece, right bit is an intact inner race. A new freehub has fixed the skipping I had on the smallest cog as well when applying full power to the bike.
IMG_20201028_203129744~3_copy_640x528.jpg
Damaged
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Freehub
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feketehegyi   10 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by feketehegyi » Oct 29 2020 12:44am

fyi, how I managed to replace sprag clutch bearing at home.

casainho   10 GW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by casainho » Oct 29 2020 2:26am

feketehegyi wrote:
Oct 29 2020 12:44am
fyi, how I managed to replace sprag clutch bearing at home.
Very nice to being able to do it with such easily available tools!! I will put a link to this video on the wiki FAQ about the main gear!!
- TSDZ2 FAQ: issues and repairs, etc
- TSDZ2 OpenSource firmware

Developer of OpenSource knowledge and technology for ebikes: Wireless Ebike boar ANT+ and Bluetooth, Flexible OpenSource firmware for EBikes: TSDZ2 mid drive motor, KT motor controllers and displays: Bafang 850C color, SW102 Bluetooth and KT-LCD3.

If you like my work, please consider making a donation to help my developments: paypal.me/jorgecasa

sysrq   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by sysrq » Oct 29 2020 5:27am

casainho wrote:
Oct 29 2020 2:26am
feketehegyi wrote:
Oct 29 2020 12:44am
fyi, how I managed to replace sprag clutch bearing at home.
Very nice to being able to do it with such easily available tools!! I will put a link to this video on the wiki FAQ about the main gear!!
In other home videos people were applying Loctite 648 before pressing in the sprag clutch. Is that necessary?

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