New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

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runwayfour   1 µW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by runwayfour » Jan 25 2021 10:33am

LeftCoastNurd wrote:
Jan 24 2021 11:26pm
runwayfour wrote:
Jan 24 2021 10:08pm
Thanks y’all. I spent so much time searching for my error on the new firmware I didn’t even think to check to make sure they sent the right thing. Will chat w/ electrify bike!
did you get the programming cables for the tsdz2 and 860c ? if so, you can flash them both with the 1.1.0 firmware and be good to go.
Not yet. I was trying to eliminate user error and let someone else do the hard parts at first -- and see what that got me :lol:
Will see if they'll send me the display they intended to send in the first place, but, also getting those cables ASAP for myself.

Thanks for steering me in the right direction **facepalm**

sysrq   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by sysrq » Jan 25 2021 12:46pm

dameri wrote:
Jan 25 2021 9:33am
sysrq wrote:
Jan 25 2021 6:54am
sysrq wrote:
Jan 18 2021 12:21pm
Wapous wrote:
Jan 17 2021 9:08pm


Did you try with the gear cover removed?
Unfortunately had to make some makeshift turning machine out of old bicycle to slightly file, sand and polish the chainwheel. Now it seems to be rotating more or less freely/smoothly and there is something which looks like a small gap between the chainring and pinion gear protrusion.
Seems weird that very few people are complaining about chainring rub against the housing since it seems like a serious design flaw which leads to needless friction and inefficiency.
I have had this in three motors. It's just bad chinese work.
Don't know if the original Japanese version or BBS02 had the same propblem. First search attempt didn't show any relevant results.

LeftCoastNurd   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by LeftCoastNurd » Jan 25 2021 1:02pm

sysrq wrote:
Jan 25 2021 12:46pm
Don't know if the original Japanese version or BBS02 had the same propblem. First search attempt didn't show any relevant results.
there is an original Japanese version that the TSDZ2 torque sensing mid drive cloned ??

ilu   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by ilu » Jan 25 2021 2:06pm

LeftCoastNurd wrote:
Jan 25 2021 1:02pm
sysrq wrote:
Jan 25 2021 12:46pm
Don't know if the original Japanese version or BBS02 had the same propblem. First search attempt didn't show any relevant results.
there is an original Japanese version that the TSDZ2 torque sensing mid drive cloned ??
I have some new problem every two weeks minimum with my piece of crap motor. I cannot understand how some people are driving thousands of kilometers without any fault, so it seems like a good explanation that they have their motors coming from a completely different factory!

sysrq   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by sysrq » Jan 25 2021 4:11pm

LeftCoastNurd wrote:
Jan 25 2021 1:02pm
sysrq wrote:
Jan 25 2021 12:46pm
Don't know if the original Japanese version or BBS02 had the same propblem. First search attempt didn't show any relevant results.
there is an original Japanese version that the TSDZ2 torque sensing mid drive cloned ??
Wasn't there Sunstar version which got discontinued?
spinningmagnets wrote:
Aug 26 2015 4:09pm
Just for general information, the Sunstar from Japan was the original drive of this size and configuration, but they were not very interested in exports to the EU and North America, plus...Bafangs BBS01 was cheaper and heavily marketed in the EU, then after its clear success...the BBS02 (with 10mm wider stator and wound to a lower Kv in order to use 48V instead of 36V) was introduced to an eager customer base in the US.

There are many places with a 250W, 500W power limit, but...the BBS02 is capable of an actual 1,000W of power, plus it can visually pass as one of its less-powerful siblings. Of course you would have to obscure the engraved 750W label, which would be wrong, and we would never want you do do anything like that (*wink)
youyoung21147 wrote:
Oct 12 2016 3:51am
I have got a prototype of the Xofo MMS 48V 350W (18A). Chainline is better than Bafang even with the stock, flat chainring.

The motor is sturdy with generously sized components but the design still feels like a prototype on some points. IMO the TSDZ2 is a better option at the moment for MTB : well implemented torque sensor, much smaller, lighter and the design is proven.

Will post a review when I have finished installing it on my Orbea Occam S10 !

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jbalat   10 kW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by jbalat » Jan 27 2021 6:10am

I made up a thin plastic spacer to move the chain wheel away from the plastic cover, the rubbing is due to the slop in the motor , despite not rubbing I feel there is a lot more we can do to improve the design and reduce mechanical drag. With the motor turned off it is impossible to ride any faster than about 17kms/hr for any length of time. Perhaps we should look to the bosch2020 motor for some ideas ? From a firmware perspective I can often peddle faster than the motor wants to rotate adding extra unwanted resistance and wasted input since it fights the motor and doesn’t transfer directly to the back wheel, this too should be something worth looking at.
Please subscribe to my Youtube home page for Quadcopters, FPV and Bike Rides http://www.youtube.com/jbalatutube
My build log here http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =6&t=55352
For some cool ebike talk join us on The Best ebike https://www.facebook.com/groups/193581737807033/
Tech talk TSDZ2 Opensource firmware https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... &start=150
Opensource TSDZ2 Wiki https://github.com/OpenSource-EBike-fir ... _wiki/wiki

Waynemarlow   10 kW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Waynemarlow » Jan 27 2021 11:01am

Just to be different, you can fit the TSDZ2 into the Bafang M500 / M600 frames.
Attachments
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IMG_0253.JPG (5.4 MiB) Viewed 359 times
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IMG_0234.JPG (1.94 MiB) Viewed 355 times

casainho   100 GW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by casainho » Jan 27 2021 11:28am

Waynemarlow wrote:
Jan 27 2021 11:01am
Just to be different, you can fit the TSDZ2 into the Bafang M500 / M600 frames.
Why not keep using the Bafang M500 / M600 motor?
- EBike wireless standard: wireless motor, wireless cycling GPS display Garmin Edge and wireless remote with wireless brake sensor
- TSDZ2 FAQ: issues and repairs, etc
- TSDZ2 OpenSource firmware

Developer of OpenSource knowledge and technology for ebikes: Wireless EBike standard ANT+ and Bluetooth, TSDZ2 OpenSource firmware, KT motor controllers and displays: Bafang 850C color, SW102 Bluetooth and KT-LCD3.

Please consider a donation to help developments: paypal.me/jorgecasa

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Alfie   100 mW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Alfie » Jan 27 2021 11:50am

Waynemarlow wrote:
Jan 27 2021 11:01am
Just to be different, you can fit the TSDZ2 into the Bafang M500 / M600 frames.

Good to see you are getting out and muddy :D How are you getting on with the frame?
Whyte T129 TSDZ2

Waynemarlow   10 kW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Waynemarlow » Jan 27 2021 12:06pm

casainho wrote:
Jan 27 2021 11:28am
Waynemarlow wrote:
Jan 27 2021 11:01am
Just to be different, you can fit the TSDZ2 into the Bafang M500 / M600 frames.
Why not keep using the Bafang M500 / M600 motor?
Yes I agree, but the M500 is speed limited in the EU and the M600 seems to be having more than a few mechanical and software issues + has had to have a metal gear inserted to stop gear damage and by consequence is said to be noisy.

Plus I had a TSDZ2 engine spare, + the Bafang is pushing $ 800.00 by the time it gets to your door v the TSDZ2 at $ 300.00.

Now if we could get you to rewrite the Bafang firmware + a Blevo type App for it, there would be an awful lot of happy people. :D

Waynemarlow   10 kW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Waynemarlow » Jan 27 2021 12:12pm

Alfie wrote:
Jan 27 2021 11:50am
Waynemarlow wrote:
Jan 27 2021 11:01am
Just to be different, you can fit the TSDZ2 into the Bafang M500 / M600 frames.
Good to see you are getting out and muddy :D How are you getting on with the frame?
Its a very good frame, way better than I was expecting.

But and its a big but, sorting out the adaptor to get TSDZ2 to mount into the Bafang mounts was a long mission, lots of thought and machining to get the motor to sit in the right place and spread the load across the Bafang mounts when the motor also has to act as part of the frame structure. Now that its been done and designed it would relatively easy to make with a CNC mill or water jet cutter.

Anybody out there wanting to sell the adapters then I could digitise the pieces needed ?
Last edited by Waynemarlow on Jan 27 2021 12:50pm, edited 1 time in total.

casainho   100 GW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by casainho » Jan 27 2021 12:33pm

Waynemarlow wrote:
Jan 27 2021 12:06pm
casainho wrote:
Jan 27 2021 11:28am
Waynemarlow wrote:
Jan 27 2021 11:01am
Just to be different, you can fit the TSDZ2 into the Bafang M500 / M600 frames.
Why not keep using the Bafang M500 / M600 motor?
Yes I agree, but the M500 is speed limited in the EU and the M600 seems to be having more than a few mechanical and software issues + has had to have a metal gear inserted to stop gear damage and by consequence is said to be noisy.

Plus I had a TSDZ2 engine spare, + the Bafang is pushing $ 800.00 by the time it gets to your door v the TSDZ2 at $ 300.00.

Now if we could get you to rewrite the Bafang firmware + a Blevo type App for it, there would be an awful lot of happy people. :D
Well, so is much more expensive - I guess is not only to initial price of the motor but the parts for repair. That means also for development will be much more expensive as also the electronics of the motors should be more complex also, so more expensive in money and time for development.

I did search on Aliexpress for "Bafang motor" and I only find parts for the DIY motors, nothing for that motor, so, how would an end user like me be able to buy the parts for repair and development and modding? Maybe is simple not possible.
- EBike wireless standard: wireless motor, wireless cycling GPS display Garmin Edge and wireless remote with wireless brake sensor
- TSDZ2 FAQ: issues and repairs, etc
- TSDZ2 OpenSource firmware

Developer of OpenSource knowledge and technology for ebikes: Wireless EBike standard ANT+ and Bluetooth, TSDZ2 OpenSource firmware, KT motor controllers and displays: Bafang 850C color, SW102 Bluetooth and KT-LCD3.

Please consider a donation to help developments: paypal.me/jorgecasa

Waynemarlow   10 kW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Waynemarlow » Jan 27 2021 12:42pm

casainho wrote:
Jan 27 2021 12:33pm
I did search on Aliexpress for "Bafang motor" and I only find parts for the DIY motors, nothing for that motor, so, how would an end user like me be able to buy the parts for repair and development and modding? Maybe is simple not possible.
You are correct with more than a few unhappy customers with Err30 locking out the motors and no parts for repair nor reasonable ways of trouble shooting the error. As to actually how many motors are failing is an unknown in comparison to the actual numbers sold,we are all guilty of using the media to point out manufacturer faults when our motor is playing up.

This was also another reason for sticking with the TSZD2, as until the Bafang unit has proved itself, I didn't want to be an early adopter.

Wapous   100 mW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Wapous » Jan 27 2021 1:00pm

Waynemarlow wrote:
Jan 27 2021 11:01am
Just to be different, you can fit the TSDZ2 into the Bafang M500 / M600 frames.
Very nice job. :thumb:

Wapous   100 mW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Wapous » Jan 27 2021 1:04pm

Just for references!
Attachments
TSDZ2_Motor_Assembly_Inside_View_A.JPG
TSDZ2_Motor_Assembly_Inside_View_A.JPG (980.86 KiB) Viewed 323 times
TSDZ2_Motor_Assembly_Inside_View_B.JPG
TSDZ2_Motor_Assembly_Inside_View_B.JPG (947.9 KiB) Viewed 323 times

casainho   100 GW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by casainho » Jan 27 2021 1:13pm

Wapous wrote:
Jan 27 2021 1:04pm
Just for references!
It is your design? If so, can you share the source files? because I am pretty sure they can be very useful for others.

And I wish some mechanical guy could improve the motor by reducing the noise - I think the noise comes from the gears, maybe from the main gear and the pinion gear.
- EBike wireless standard: wireless motor, wireless cycling GPS display Garmin Edge and wireless remote with wireless brake sensor
- TSDZ2 FAQ: issues and repairs, etc
- TSDZ2 OpenSource firmware

Developer of OpenSource knowledge and technology for ebikes: Wireless EBike standard ANT+ and Bluetooth, TSDZ2 OpenSource firmware, KT motor controllers and displays: Bafang 850C color, SW102 Bluetooth and KT-LCD3.

Please consider a donation to help developments: paypal.me/jorgecasa

sysrq   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by sysrq » Jan 27 2021 4:39pm

jbalat wrote:
Jan 27 2021 6:10am
I made up a thin plastic spacer to move the chain wheel away from the plastic cover, the rubbing is due to the slop in the motor , despite not rubbing I feel there is a lot more we can do to improve the design and reduce mechanical drag. With the motor turned off it is impossible to ride any faster than about 17kms/hr for any length of time. Perhaps we should look to the bosch2020 motor for some ideas ? From a firmware perspective I can often peddle faster than the motor wants to rotate adding extra unwanted resistance and wasted input since it fights the motor and doesn’t transfer directly to the back wheel, this too should be something worth looking at.
Since every fraction of a millimeter is important for good chainlaine then I had to resort to filing and polishing the chainring on a makeshift lathe. The chainring thickness went from 1.90mm to 1.75mm around the area below the teeth.
Have been saying the same thing. In turbo mode it's seems to be spinning faster which reduces the perception of a drag.
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jbalat   10 kW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by jbalat » Jan 27 2021 6:13pm

sysrq wrote:
Jan 27 2021 4:39pm
In turbo mode it's seems to be spinning faster which reduces the perception of a drag.
Exactly, its very easy to feel in lower assist levels

BTW thank you Wapous for the schematics.. It would be great to do a video/animation to get a better visualisation of how it works to see if there are any easy improvements
Please subscribe to my Youtube home page for Quadcopters, FPV and Bike Rides http://www.youtube.com/jbalatutube
My build log here http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =6&t=55352
For some cool ebike talk join us on The Best ebike https://www.facebook.com/groups/193581737807033/
Tech talk TSDZ2 Opensource firmware https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... &start=150
Opensource TSDZ2 Wiki https://github.com/OpenSource-EBike-fir ... _wiki/wiki

Wapous   100 mW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Wapous » Jan 27 2021 6:14pm

casainho wrote:
Jan 27 2021 1:13pm
Wapous wrote:
Jan 27 2021 1:04pm
Just for references!
It is your design? If so, can you share the source files? because I am pretty sure they can be very useful for others.

And I wish some mechanical guy could improve the motor by reducing the noise - I think the noise comes from the gears, maybe from the main gear and the pinion gear.
I did industrial design for several years. I have been using Solidworks software since 2000.
Obviously I would be happy to offer the reverse engineering drawings free of charge but NOT in the native form.
Those interested only have to ask for the desired format.
Like STEP, DXF, SAT, IGES etc.
Note: The CAD files you see in my mail are not for production but for viewing. But these CAD drawings are faithful to the components of the TSDZ2 engine.

Wapous   100 mW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Wapous » Jan 27 2021 6:21pm

jbalat wrote:
Jan 27 2021 6:13pm
sysrq wrote:
Jan 27 2021 4:39pm
In turbo mode it's seems to be spinning faster which reduces the perception of a drag.
Exactly, its very easy to feel in lower assist levels

BTW thank you Wapous for the schematics.. It would be great to do a video/animation to get a better visualisation of how it works to see if there are any easy improvements
OK. I will do that in a near future.

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feketehegyi   10 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by feketehegyi » Jan 28 2021 3:18pm

fyi, mobile gestures and voice commands throttle alternatives:
https://youtu.be/JOfJ3XgbrvE
https://youtu.be/CLSx6sgaIB8

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Alfie   100 mW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Alfie » Jan 29 2021 6:46am

Waynemarlow wrote:
Jan 27 2021 12:12pm

Its a very good frame, way better than I was expecting.
What is the largest capacity battery you can fit in the frame?

Have you weighed the finished bike?
Whyte T129 TSDZ2

Waynemarlow   10 kW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Waynemarlow » Jan 29 2021 7:18am

Alfie wrote:
Jan 29 2021 6:46am
Waynemarlow wrote:
Jan 27 2021 12:12pm

Its a very good frame, way better than I was expecting.
What is the largest capacity battery you can fit in the frame?

Have you weighed the finished bike?
The battery compartment is huge, I can fit 2 x 360Wh batteries and probably a 3rd if you were to make a dedicated battery.

22kgs with 720Wh battery, no weight thought or compromise on used bits and pieces on anything in the back of my shed and bits that are cheap and cheerful and will last the UK muddy conditions. If you went way over the top using weight weeny ( read lots of money ) you could push that down a long way.

Still heavy than my Whyte though :D

casainho   100 GW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by casainho » Jan 29 2021 7:40am

Wapous wrote:
Jan 27 2021 6:14pm
casainho wrote:
Jan 27 2021 1:13pm
Wapous wrote:
Jan 27 2021 1:04pm
Just for references!
It is your design? If so, can you share the source files? because I am pretty sure they can be very useful for others.

And I wish some mechanical guy could improve the motor by reducing the noise - I think the noise comes from the gears, maybe from the main gear and the pinion gear.
I did industrial design for several years. I have been using Solidworks software since 2000.
Obviously I would be happy to offer the reverse engineering drawings free of charge but NOT in the native form.
Those interested only have to ask for the desired format.
Like STEP, DXF, SAT, IGES etc.
Note: The CAD files you see in my mail are not for production but for viewing. But these CAD drawings are faithful to the components of the TSDZ2 engine.
Can you please please share in STEP files as also that images, so I can add to our github and to the TSDZ2 FAQ repair page?
- EBike wireless standard: wireless motor, wireless cycling GPS display Garmin Edge and wireless remote with wireless brake sensor
- TSDZ2 FAQ: issues and repairs, etc
- TSDZ2 OpenSource firmware

Developer of OpenSource knowledge and technology for ebikes: Wireless EBike standard ANT+ and Bluetooth, TSDZ2 OpenSource firmware, KT motor controllers and displays: Bafang 850C color, SW102 Bluetooth and KT-LCD3.

Please consider a donation to help developments: paypal.me/jorgecasa

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Alfie   100 mW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Alfie » Jan 29 2021 7:48am

Waynemarlow wrote:
Jan 29 2021 7:18am
22kgs with 720Wh battery, no weight thought or compromise on used bits and pieces on anything in the back of my shed and bits that are cheap and cheerful and will last the UK muddy conditions. If you went way over the top using weight weeny ( read lots of money ) you could push that down a long way.

Still heavy than my Whyte though :D
22kgs is pretty good. As you say, not much point in weight watching too much with an ebike.
Whyte T129 TSDZ2

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