New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

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Wapous   100 mW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Wapous » Feb 10 2021 9:59pm

casainho wrote:
Feb 10 2021 5:26pm
Wapous wrote:
Feb 10 2021 4:57pm
As it is impossible to modify the diameter of the driving gear and that of the driven gear, I stop this development.
I include the technical drawing that the suppliers received.
Thanks!!
Waynemarlow wrote:
Feb 10 2021 5:04pm
Well that sorts that idea, pity as a quiet motor would be great.

Thanks for doing all the enquiries Wapous.
Thank you and a thousand regrets that it is impossible to make this modification economically.
We understand why the designers of the Brose engine used a ratio of around 2.75: 1. And with a wide high torque (HT) belt from Gates company they ensured product quality.

manoz   100 mW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by manoz » Feb 11 2021 6:50pm

Wow that's amazing, didn't even know you could do that!

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by SlowCo » Feb 12 2021 6:41am

Wapous wrote:
Feb 10 2021 9:59pm
casainho wrote:
Feb 10 2021 5:26pm
Wapous wrote:
Feb 10 2021 4:57pm
As it is impossible to modify the diameter of the driving gear and that of the driven gear, I stop this development.
I include the technical drawing that the suppliers received.
Thanks!!
Waynemarlow wrote:
Feb 10 2021 5:04pm
Well that sorts that idea, pity as a quiet motor would be great.

Thanks for doing all the enquiries Wapous.
Thank you and a thousand regrets that it is impossible to make this modification economically.
We understand why the designers of the Brose engine used a ratio of around 2.75: 1. And with a wide high torque (HT) belt from Gates company they ensured product quality.
I don't own or have ever heard a TSDZ2 so not aware how noisy it really is. But as sound is vibration, is there no way of "dampening" the vibration that the gears make? Maybe glue some rubber to the main gear (if there is any room?) and the casing (=sound box?). Just a thought.

Waynemarlow   10 kW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Waynemarlow » Feb 12 2021 9:18am

Some of the TSDZ2's are noisier than others, particulalry the early models with the straightcut gears, most take a couple of 100 kms to wear in the gears to the point that they are not so noisy, but is a worn in unit any noisier than say the latest Bosch or Shimano, in my opinion no. But compared to the Bafang or Brose motors, yes with the Brose in particular really quiet.

Is there any way we could dampen the noise with rubber blocks, no as the noise is the steel to steel main gear reduction that runs in grease right on the outside of the motor.

casainho   100 GW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by casainho » Feb 12 2021 9:36am

Waynemarlow wrote:
Feb 12 2021 9:18am
Some of the TSDZ2's are noisier than others, particulalry the early models with the straightcut gears, most take a couple of 100 kms to wear in the gears to the point that they are not so noisy, but is a worn in unit any noisier than say the latest Bosch or Shimano, in my opinion no. But compared to the Bafang or Brose motors, yes with the Brose in particular really quiet.

Is there any way we could dampen the noise with rubber blocks, no as the noise is the steel to steel main gear reduction that runs in grease right on the outside of the motor.
Coating the main gear teeths with some ruber?? Would such be possible??
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Waynemarlow   10 kW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Waynemarlow » Feb 12 2021 9:52am

No the new motors are helical gears which increases the surface pressure way beyond rubber limits.

SlowCo   1 MW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by SlowCo » Feb 12 2021 12:21pm

The gears meshing at higher rpm's will probably be the main source of the noise. If the main gear could be coated in rubber everywhere where it doesn't touch anything (teeth, bearing etc.) that might help. And if there is a surface of the main gear that has more room between it and the casing then gluing a thicker piece of rubber sheet/ring to it might help even more with dampening the high frequency vibration. Sticking some rubber on the outside of the casing and where it mounts against the frame is an easy way to try if the sound box effect of it can be reduced. Not too much as that might cause it to overheat.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by jbalat » Feb 12 2021 8:31pm

Hi Wapous,
I have the straight cut teeth on my large gear, I was thinking whether we could make an outer gear ring in nylon and machine down the metal gear and drill and tap some holes so that we can screw on the nylon part. We have industrial 3D printers at work so I could print one. If you could design it for me then I can surely have a go at it !!! :bigthumb:
The beefier the better and it will also reduce the weight of the Main gear too.

JB
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Wapous   100 mW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Wapous » Feb 12 2021 9:34pm

jbalat wrote:
Feb 12 2021 8:31pm
Hi Wapous,
I have the straight cut teeth on my large gear, I was thinking whether we could make an outer gear ring in nylon and machine down the metal gear and drill and tap some holes so that we can screw on the nylon part. We have industrial 3D printers at work so I could print one. If you could design it for me then I can surely have a go at it !!! :bigthumb:
The beefier the better and it will also reduce the weight of the Main gear too.

JB
I will have a look at that and be back to you soon.

Wapous   100 mW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Wapous » Feb 12 2021 11:31pm

Since we modified our bikes with the TSDZ2 engine two years ago my wife and I have ridden over 20,000 km.
We travel on roads and rarely do we go off-road. For us, the minimum power is sufficient. So our average range is 90 km with a 48volts / 14ah battery.
We are completely satisfied with our modified bikes. In addition, maintenance is easy and spare parts are readily available.
Now I would like to talk about the operating noise. If you are reading this forum you may be worried about ordering and installing this motor on your bike. I can reassure you that if you mount this motor on your bike and use it like we do my wife and I you will only have fun. And the engine noise at low power is practically inaudible.
In addition, at this low power you will easily ride against the wind and climb slopes easily.
But obviously if you are doing off-road and mountain riding and the power requested is cranked to the max, you may complaint about noise.
All modifications to reduce noise discussed in this forum are for users who are using their TSDZ2 engine to its maximum. And it is quite correct.
For these users we are looking for all kinds of ways to reduce noise and technically it is fun and rewarding. And the manufacturer is watching us.

This message was meant to be reassuring if you want to use it on the road.
You will then have a quiet and reliable engine.

casainho   100 GW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by casainho » Feb 13 2021 2:59am

Wapous wrote:
Feb 12 2021 11:31pm
Since we modified our bikes with the TSDZ2 engine two years ago my wife and I have ridden over 20,000 km.
We travel on roads and rarely do we go off-road. For us, the minimum power is sufficient. So our average range is 90 km with a 48volts / 14ah battery.
That is a lot of kms. I am curious about the type of bicycle you use? Road bike?
- EBike wireless standard: wireless motor, wireless cycling GPS display Garmin Edge and wireless remote with wireless brake sensor
- TSDZ2 FAQ: issues and repairs, etc
- TSDZ2 OpenSource firmware

Developer of OpenSource knowledge and technology for ebikes: Wireless EBike standard ANT+ and Bluetooth, TSDZ2 OpenSource firmware, KT motor controllers and displays: Bafang 850C color, SW102 Bluetooth and KT-LCD3.

Please consider a donation to help developments: paypal.me/jorgecasa

Doohickey   10 mW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Doohickey » Feb 13 2021 4:03am

Wapous wrote:
Feb 12 2021 11:31pm
All modifications to reduce noise discussed in this forum are for users who are using their TSDZ2 engine to its maximum. And it is quite correct.
I have the TSDZ2 myself, and at low power (100-250w), it is definitely audible (not particularly bothersome though). I have also briefly tested two different bafang motors, and both of those were waay quieter at similar power levels.

I've regreased my motor (with SHC100), which helped a little. I also tried the brass gear (when I was using it for more off-road), which was much noisier, so I went back to the nylon one (no issues so far with a few thousand km on low power, on paved roads). I think I just got a particularly noisy motor.

Waynemarlow   10 kW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Waynemarlow » Feb 13 2021 7:52am

Of all the engine types the Bafung range are the quietest of all posibly even than the belt driven Brose.

However due to engine gear problems the Bafung M600 reverted to a metal on metal main gear and already there are after market plastic Peek gears for it to quieten it down. There are rumours already that future M600 engines from the factory will have the plastic gear reintroduced.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=55K0_gAE02E

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Waynemarlow » Feb 13 2021 8:02am

jbalat wrote:
Feb 12 2021 8:31pm
I have the straight cut teeth on my large gear, I was thinking whether we could make an outer gear ring in nylon and machine down the metal gear and drill and tap some holes so that we can screw on the nylon part.
Is there any reason simply to not use PeeK plastic to make that whole metal gear in one rather than using the existing gear machined down with an outer ring of Peek with all the inherant problems of bonding or machine in a few side grub screws ?

https://gearsolutions.com/features/take ... t-polymer/

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jbalat   10 kW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by jbalat » Feb 13 2021 8:31am

Peek/PEKK are super expensive as compare to Nylon and need much higher temperatures to print. Yes we do use it at work but only for special projects. I find it much more brittle than most plastics. I would prefer either PC-ABS or Nylon since they have a little bit of give in them.
As for printing the whole gear... yeh I am worried that the pressed in sprag clutch may slip over time even with grub screws unless we can grind some flats or external key way.
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Opensource TSDZ2 Wiki https://github.com/OpenSource-EBike-fir ... _wiki/wiki

Waynemarlow   10 kW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Waynemarlow » Feb 13 2021 8:42am

Expensive maybe the longevity ticket though. What would it cost to print such a gear, we could always try a few in various materials. I think also there are some really good chemical bonds between steel and plastic available relatively cheaply.

Wapous   100 mW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Wapous » Feb 13 2021 11:15am

casainho wrote:
Feb 13 2021 2:59am
That is a lot of kms. I am curious about the type of bicycle you use? Road bike?
20,000 km is the total for both. Means 5000km on each bike per year.
Bike are Specialized. Hybrid.
Attachments
Bike specialized.jpg
Bike specialized.jpg (1.72 MiB) Viewed 485 times

Wapous   100 mW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Wapous » Feb 14 2021 11:39am

jbalat wrote:
Feb 12 2021 8:31pm
Hi Wapous,
I have the straight cut teeth on my large gear, I was thinking whether we could make an outer gear ring in nylon and machine down the metal gear and drill and tap some holes so that we can screw on the nylon part. We have industrial 3D printers at work so I could print one. If you could design it for me then I can surely have a go at it !!!
The beefier the better and it will also reduce the weight of the Main gear too.
I am not familiar with the Peek product. In the drawings shown here, the gear teeth are machined from Bakelite. The Bakelite product has been used for decades to manufacture gears.
Bakelite gears are quieter and have great strength. In addition, since Bakelite is quite abrasive it is recommended to use it with a steel pinion. Which does the trick here.
Regarding the precise dimensions you are talking about, I recommend that you bring the current gear to the CNC shop along with the drawings included.
This modification could reduce noise and replace the concept with a belt. It remains to be proven.
But one thing is certain, Bakelite on steel is less noisy than steel on steel.
Attachments
BakeliteGear_assembly_exploded.JPG
BakeliteGear_assembly_exploded.JPG (675.07 KiB) Viewed 421 times
BakeliteGear_assembly_exploded_2.JPG
BakeliteGear_assembly_exploded_2.JPG (608.14 KiB) Viewed 421 times
BakeliteGear_assembly_with bearing.JPG
BakeliteGear_assembly_with bearing.JPG (606.05 KiB) Viewed 421 times
BakeliteGear_Bottom_view.JPG
BakeliteGear_Bottom_view.JPG (483.93 KiB) Viewed 421 times
BakeliteGear_Top_view.JPG
BakeliteGear_Top_view.JPG (564.98 KiB) Viewed 421 times

casainho   100 GW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by casainho » Feb 14 2021 2:12pm

Wapous wrote:
Feb 14 2021 11:39am
jbalat wrote:
Feb 12 2021 8:31pm
Hi Wapous,
I have the straight cut teeth on my large gear, I was thinking whether we could make an outer gear ring in nylon and machine down the metal gear and drill and tap some holes so that we can screw on the nylon part. We have industrial 3D printers at work so I could print one. If you could design it for me then I can surely have a go at it !!!
The beefier the better and it will also reduce the weight of the Main gear too.
I am not familiar with the Peek product. In the drawings shown here, the gear teeth are machined from Bakelite. The Bakelite product has been used for decades to manufacture gears.
Bakelite gears are quieter and have great strength. In addition, since Bakelite is quite abrasive it is recommended to use it with a steel pinion. Which does the trick here.
Regarding the precise dimensions you are talking about, I recommend that you bring the current gear to the CNC shop along with the drawings included.
This modification could reduce noise and replace the concept with a belt. It remains to be proven.
But one thing is certain, Bakelite on steel is less noisy than steel on steel.
Cool idea!!

Wapous, maybe you could share that both parts (part with teeth and the part of gear) and STEP files, so jbalat can first 3D print both to test before send to machining the metal gear. Even maybe someone can first 3D print in PLA just to have a feeling how it will work!!

Nice bicycle!!
- EBike wireless standard: wireless motor, wireless cycling GPS display Garmin Edge and wireless remote with wireless brake sensor
- TSDZ2 FAQ: issues and repairs, etc
- TSDZ2 OpenSource firmware

Developer of OpenSource knowledge and technology for ebikes: Wireless EBike standard ANT+ and Bluetooth, TSDZ2 OpenSource firmware, KT motor controllers and displays: Bafang 850C color, SW102 Bluetooth and KT-LCD3.

Please consider a donation to help developments: paypal.me/jorgecasa

Wapous   100 mW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Wapous » Feb 14 2021 8:51pm

casainho wrote:
Feb 14 2021 2:12pm
Cool idea!!

Wapous, maybe you could share that both parts (part with teeth and the part of gear) and STEP files, so jbalat can first 3D print both to test before send to machining the metal gear. Even maybe someone can first 3D print in PLA just to have a feeling how it will work!!
As already mentioned these drawings are not for machining but for graphic viewing.
As an example, the teeth of the Bakelite gear have been drawn freely and without reference to the gears of this version which I do not have.
But you might get a good idea if reproduced by a 3D printer.
I am therefore including the STL and 3MF files which will be useful.

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by krdmitry » Feb 15 2021 2:52am

Hi guys,

does anyone use VLCD7 display?
Could you please tell which Bluetooth pairing password should be used with them?

manoz   100 mW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by manoz » Feb 16 2021 6:37am

Does anyone know what that material is that covers the PCB on the controller to help seal it?

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jbalat   10 kW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by jbalat » Feb 17 2021 1:13am

Wapous, not sure I understand
Are you saying you may have the number of teeth wrong and the shape of the teeth may be incorrect and not sized properly ?

You can download models from McMaster Carr
https://www.mcmaster.com/spur-gears/com ... ure-angle/

If your drawing is not for production then...
I will take my gear off and photo copy it so I can compare
I can bring the image into catia and retrace the exact shape to make the model to scale
My gut feel is that the teeth will be too small to print properly and handle any load but let me have a closer look first
I’m really sick of that whining noise.. something must be done!
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For some cool ebike talk join us on The Best ebike https://www.facebook.com/groups/193581737807033/
Tech talk TSDZ2 Opensource firmware https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... &start=150
Opensource TSDZ2 Wiki https://github.com/OpenSource-EBike-fir ... _wiki/wiki

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Waynemarlow » Feb 17 2021 6:22am

Jbalat, I think your engines are the older ones with straight cut gears ? The later helical gears are much much quieter once they have worn in for a couple of hundred clicks and been regreased. Is the effort worth more than simply buying a later motor ? Certainly 4 of the 5 units we have are comparable with the latest Bosch CX noise wise. We do have 1 unit that is appreciably noisier from the gears ( its a 48 volt unit running at 700 Watts ) than the others, I need to pull it to pieces to investigate but it just keeps going.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by mctubster » Feb 17 2021 7:03am

I just bought a Bosch gen 4 bike for my wife. Sure it makes a small amount of noise but it a pleasing well engineered whirring noise. My TSDZ2 (helical and regreased) has always made an annoying type of grating noise that gets unpleasant at high power. Don’t get me wrong I love my TDSZ2 and capabilities, but don’t compare its noise envelop to the latest Bosch motors!

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