New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Discussions related to motors other than hub motors.
This includes R/C motors, botttom bracket, roller and geared drives.
shirk   1 mW

1 mW
Posts: 13
Joined: Oct 11 2013 4:26pm

Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by shirk » Apr 05 2021 8:33pm

Yes please post a thread on the full build. Great work.

ebbsocalMTB   1 mW

1 mW
Posts: 14
Joined: Mar 30 2021 5:09pm

Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by ebbsocalMTB » Apr 06 2021 7:03pm

Hey folks, I'm new to the party here with not only the tsdz2 but also diy ebikes in general. I've started a build thread for my tsdz2 conversion... check it out here if you're interested viewtopic.php?f=6&t=111223

I'm currently just getting started on the best way to mount the motor to this boost, 27.5+ frame which has very short chainstays. These aren't issues that i didn't expect going in, so it's all good... I'm just working through the task and trying to hit the high points of doing a bit of everything to improve the overall fit.

One thing i noticed in doing my research before the kit arrived, is that there have been a few people that have clearanced the motor housing in order to get a bit of room back. Most notably, in the youtube video at the following link. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjS2OOLTGFU

here is a screenshot from that video.
Image

Here's another example of people grinding away at the housing to clear the Seat tube. Not the same thing, but same idea.
Image

In my case, I'm not looking to go crazy, but a few MM would for sure help. Here's the clearances I'm working with at the moment.
Image

I have 7.5mm of spacers on the drive side... IT appears that I could at least, put a chamfer on the bolting tab and get another 1mm back. I'd be over the moon if I could get that to 2-2.5mm with a combo of rotating the motor and potentially doing a bit of grinding. I guess I'm looking for any sort of comment or experience with this from those that are more knowledgeable then I.

Here's some images of the housing only for reference.
Image

Image

Image

ebbsocalMTB   1 mW

1 mW
Posts: 14
Joined: Mar 30 2021 5:09pm

Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by ebbsocalMTB » Apr 06 2021 9:15pm

well, I answered some of my own questions. I found the below image while searching a bit more before picking up the tools. eek, not all that much material there, about what I expected honestly, no real reason for them to over build (cast) that setion.
Image

I started with the lowest lying fruit... I just put a slight chamfer on the housing clamshell bolt. I took this down to the fastener as to not do anything yet that would be significantly past the point of no return.
Image

This effort allowed me to change from 7.5mm of spacers to 6mm of spacers. The housing is now barely touching the chainstay, so I may either take a smidgeon of material off, or add .2 - .5mm of spacers back in.
Image

Overall, not enough material coming off to go to the 68-73mm shell and run without hte 92-100mm adapter. I'm about 1-2mm short of being able to do that. Likely not going to be able to get there without facing the bb shell down.

User avatar
hetm4n   100 mW

100 mW
Posts: 44
Joined: Aug 29 2019 6:30am

Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by hetm4n » Apr 06 2021 11:39pm

Is it possible to convert the coaster version to versions without a brake coaster? I have a coaster engine and I want to be able to freely turn the pedals backwards
mongoose teocali comp 2014 TSDZ2 750W 13s3p & 13s7p
dartmoor primal 2017 bafang BBS02b 750W 13s6p

Waynemarlow   10 kW

10 kW
Posts: 573
Joined: Jul 09 2016 7:22am
Location: Bucks, England

Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Waynemarlow » Apr 07 2021 3:23am

ebbsocalMTB wrote:
Apr 06 2021 9:15pm

Overall, not enough material coming off to go to the 68-73mm shell and run without hte 92-100mm adapter. I'm about 1-2mm short of being able to do that. Likely not going to be able to get there without facing the bb shell down.
You seem to be making a lot of work for yourself for very little gain. The rear stays are your limiting factor what ever you do, accept that you will need at least 1- 2 mm clearance, mount your motor and then deal with the chain line. You will be surprised at just how far modern derailleurs will pull across and as long as you are 1/3rd or even 1/4 the way across the rear group set you will be fine.

If you are worried about the offset of the drive side pedal, the human body adapts pretty well or you can fit a RH Shimano 6000 series pedal which has zero offset and the standard on the non drive side.

Summers coming, get the motor on and enjoy rather than make it an engineering experience 😀

2old   100 kW

100 kW
Posts: 1352
Joined: Jul 19 2014 3:20pm
Location: Socal

Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by 2old » Apr 07 2021 8:38am

Looks like individual is in socal where the riding season never ends. If the problem is offset, just do what I did with my first BBS02 conversion and operate the rear with three gears 11-17-28 at the end of the cassette. It was all that was necessary with the motor and shifted fine. It was spaced 8-speed since the shifter and derailleur were only about $20 each at that time.

ebbsocalMTB   1 mW

1 mW
Posts: 14
Joined: Mar 30 2021 5:09pm

Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by ebbsocalMTB » Apr 07 2021 9:29am

Waynemarlow wrote:
Apr 07 2021 3:23am

You seem to be making a lot of work for yourself for very little gain. The rear stays are your limiting factor what ever you do, accept that you will need at least 1- 2 mm clearance, mount your motor and then deal with the chain line. You will be surprised at just how far modern derailleurs will pull across and as long as you are 1/3rd or even 1/4 the way across the rear group set you will be fine.

If you are worried about the offset of the drive side pedal, the human body adapts pretty well or you can fit a RH Shimano 6000 series pedal which has zero offset and the standard on the non drive side.

Summers coming, get the motor on and enjoy rather than make it an engineering experience 😀
2old wrote:
Apr 07 2021 8:38am
Looks like individual is in socal where the riding season never ends. If the problem is offset, just do what I did with my first BBS02 conversion and operate the rear with three gears 11-17-28 at the end of the cassette. It was all that was necessary with the motor and shifted fine. It was spaced 8-speed since the shifter and derailleur were only about $20 each at that time.
Bingo. Fortunately for me the riding season lasts year round... I'm also lucky that I have 4 other bikes and a ktm 500 to split my time between. Also, double whammy, I am an engineer by trade so I can never leave well enough alone.

I did order this setup from eco-ebike with the bafang non-drive side crank. Right now, with the 100mm adapter and 6mm of spacers on the drive side, the cranks are within 5mm of equal on both sides. Definitely good enough for the gals I go with. I do agree that it is surprising how much the human body can adapt to the offset, but I do have some what finicky knees... which is mostly from riding 4-5 days a week on my other mountain bikes. The dirt bike doesn't help that either.

Regarding the chainline... you are definitely right. My other 3 mtb's are all running either eagle with a mix of axs and x01. The chainline on eagle is actually pretty deep in the cassette and in the largest rear cog, the eagle drivetrain cross chains quite a bit with no issue. I'm running a sram gx11 speed shifter and derailleur on this bike and it's a medium cage setup, so it won't be quite as friendly for cross chaining, but it'll still be damn good. I'm definitely already in the ballpark of what I would consider "not great but acceptable".

I may end up re-working this cassette down to a 7 speed to improve the issue even further if need be. I have a sunrace 11 speed I sniped locally which has the gears I would need in order to do that. Thanks much for the replies!

Manbeer   100 W

100 W
Posts: 154
Joined: Aug 07 2020 5:59pm

Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Manbeer » Apr 08 2021 10:02am

I've been thinking for a while about how to pull off the lightweight minimalist build with torque sensor support on a hub. I'm pondering trying to use a tsdz2 controller standalone, If I could adapt it to run, say, a q100? I havent attempted OSF yet, But essentially what I need to know I guess is if a torque sensing bottom bracket like a thun or sempu should output a compatible signal, And if there is anyway to adjust the motor settings to account for the pole pairs of a hub

Technically I could run cycle analyst With a normal controller but I am trying to free up some of the handle bar real estate And wiring

HrKlev   100 W

100 W
Posts: 226
Joined: Dec 06 2019 10:24am

Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by HrKlev » Apr 08 2021 11:30am

Wouldnt it be easier to use a KT controller with osf? I think they are supposed to support torque sensors...?
DIY lightweight mid drive with torque sensing build thread: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=107622

Manbeer   100 W

100 W
Posts: 154
Joined: Aug 07 2020 5:59pm

Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Manbeer » Apr 08 2021 2:26pm

yes I suppose it would make more sense, I like the form factor of this control but perhaps I could use one of the integrated battery pack controllers rather than this. I wasn't aware that I could run a torque sensor directly with OSF But that's definitely the way to go if it's the case, Looking into it. Thank you

Triketech   1 kW

1 kW
Posts: 359
Joined: Mar 31 2015 6:50pm

Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Triketech » Apr 09 2021 10:30am

Wow, 338 pages.

I bought an early TSDZ2 36V, VLCD-5 direct from Tongsheng in 2017. It has the nylon primary gear and is well greased.
Secondary gears (10 Tooth Pinion/70 Tooth Spur gears) are pretty loud and add quite a bit of drag. Close inspection revealed that the Pressure Angles of the two gears are miles apart. The large seal also had excessive lip pressure from too tight of a spring; relaxed the spring but the majority of drag comes from the mismatched secondary gears.

After 500 miles, I swapped out the drive for a hub system and turned into a dust collector.

Have a +1 ride on the way, and looking at a mid drive. It is my understanding that Tongsheng has updated the Secondary gears from spur to helical. Is that correct?

Note that the primary gears are the motor to countershaft gears. Those aren't the gears making noise. Its the secondary set between the Countershaft and the Chainring side.

If they haven't cured the noise & drag I'll just go with a BBS02.

Doohickey   10 mW

10 mW
Posts: 27
Joined: Sep 30 2019 3:04am

Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Doohickey » Apr 09 2021 3:23pm

Triketech wrote:
Apr 09 2021 10:30am
If they haven't cured the noise & drag I'll just go with a BBS02.
Maybe my TSDZ2 is somewhat noisy despite being a newer one with helical gears, but I've tested / cycled beside a few different BBS02s, and they are all much quieter.

The drag comes from the fact that when you turn the cranks without assistance on, you're turning almost everything: the main gear, the intermediate spur gear, and the blue gear - it's the blue gear that has the one way roller bearing for this. Not sure how the BBS02 works in this regard or if it has less drag(?).

[edit: I wasn't really thinking when I wrote that.. the main gear / chainring, and the pinion gear is all you're turning when the assist is off - the one-way roller that allows this is on the inside of the blue gear, so the shaft that's on the inside of the blue gear is turnining, not the gear itself..]

IMO it's a tradeoff: BBS02 is quiet, more reliable I think, and can put out more power for longer without overheating. TSDZ2 has torque sensing and open source firmware..
Last edited by Doohickey on Apr 09 2021 4:05pm, edited 2 times in total.

casainho   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 5143
Joined: Feb 14 2011 2:43pm

Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by casainho » Apr 09 2021 3:37pm

Doohickey wrote:
Apr 09 2021 3:23pm
IMO it's a tradeoff: BBS02 is quiet, more reliable I think, and can put out more power for longer without overheating. TSDZ2 has torque sensing and open source firmware..
TSDZ2 is also smaller and lighter.

Small, light and with torque sensor, makes the best option for the ones building slick and light MTB / touring / gravel EBike. And with TSDZ2 wireless and connection to cycling GPS displays, makes the best option for a very good type of that EBikes.
- EBike wireless standard: wireless motor, wireless cycling GPS display Garmin Edge and wireless remote with wireless brake sensor
- TSDZ2 FAQ: issues and repairs, etc
- TSDZ2 OpenSource firmware

Developer of OpenSource knowledge and technology for ebikes: Wireless EBike standard ANT+ and Bluetooth, TSDZ2 OpenSource firmware, KT motor controllers and displays: Bafang 850C color, SW102 Bluetooth and KT-LCD3.

Please consider a donation to help developments: paypal.me/jorgecasa

Wapous   100 mW

100 mW
Posts: 43
Joined: Oct 30 2019 9:33pm

Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Wapous » Apr 09 2021 3:53pm

Doohickey wrote:
Apr 09 2021 3:23pm
The drag comes from the fact that when you turn the cranks without assistance on, you're turning almost everything: the main gear, the intermediate spur gear, and the blue gear - it's the blue gear that has the one way roller bearing for this. Not sure how the BBS02 works in this regard or if it has less drag(?).
No. Without assistance your are rotating the main gear and the pinion gear. That's all. The one way bearing do not engage the blue gear when you are without assistance. The one way bearing is active when the blue gear is activated by the motor.

https://youtu.be/EsMlBj6ogVQ

Waynemarlow   10 kW

10 kW
Posts: 573
Joined: Jul 09 2016 7:22am
Location: Bucks, England

Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Waynemarlow » Apr 10 2021 6:54am

And the sprag clutch in the bearing that the main gear sits on does what ?

ilu   100 W

100 W
Posts: 135
Joined: Oct 18 2019 10:51am

Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by ilu » Apr 10 2021 8:01am

Waynemarlow wrote:
Apr 10 2021 6:54am
And the sprag clutch in the bearing that the main gear sits on does what ?
It allows the motor to run the gear and chainring without making the pedals turn.

Waynemarlow   10 kW

10 kW
Posts: 573
Joined: Jul 09 2016 7:22am
Location: Bucks, England

Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Waynemarlow » Apr 10 2021 8:44am

And if the motor is stopped ?

ahagge   1 mW

1 mW
Posts: 13
Joined: Sep 15 2013 9:57am
Location: Northridge, CA

Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by ahagge » Apr 10 2021 6:55pm

I just got pointed to this video yesterday - it might help to visualize how the TSDZ2 clutches work:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EsMlBj6ogVQ

Waynemarlow   10 kW

10 kW
Posts: 573
Joined: Jul 09 2016 7:22am
Location: Bucks, England

Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Waynemarlow » Apr 11 2021 3:53am

In reverse thinking with the motor off. The drive side pedals are connected directly through the torque sensor and then on to the non side by a shaft, which has 1 roller bearing on either side and is separated from the motor main gear by the sprag clutch.

The only drag we should get is the grease and roller bearing friction within the bearings and the two water seals along that main shaft. In practice though the springs holding the sprag clutch activating mechanism against the inner race, which is connected directly to the main shaft and the large volume of grease within that quite large diameter sprag clutch, is enough to ever slowly slightly rotate the main gear which can be felt at the pedals as a back ground notchiness ( main gear teeth rotating the blue gear ) the faster you pedal.

Post Reply