New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

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Triketech   1 kW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Triketech » Aug 15 2017 11:09am

tomjasz wrote:What are the 18A controllers putting out for top speed? 15A?
My wife's trike has the 350W 36V. It runs out of steam at about 20 MPH, with my wife pedaling at about 180 watts human output, and its only pulling about 5-6 amps, probably about 180 watts due to the power loss at higher RPM (BEMF).

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by RTIII » Aug 15 2017 11:46am

dom48 wrote:Yes, the settings for mph and cc were set correctly to mph and 1. Here are the remainder of the settings:

D1=700
6km/h = ON (I don't know what this setting is for)
SD = ----
25mph limit = OFF
Amps = 18

I am using the power cutoff brake levers. I dont think that would affect it? The magnet is positioned approximately 1.5mm from the sensor. Average speed is also incorrect, it displayed 90mph. :lol:
Um... Without going to look it up... It won't take 700 as in the 700c tire specification - it probably thinks you have a 7" tire! That would explain the 90 MPH, yes? :lol:

I THINK the 700c wheel equates to 28" or 29" depending on tire mounted to the rim. Measure yours from the ground to the top of the tire in nearest whole inches! :) Or, feel free to lie to it if you want! :D

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by RTIII » Aug 15 2017 11:50am

Triketech wrote:
tomjasz wrote:What are the 18A controllers putting out for top speed? 15A?
My wife's trike has the 350W 36V. It runs out of steam at about 20 MPH, with my wife pedaling at about 180 watts human output, and its only pulling about 5-6 amps, probably about 180 watts due to the power loss at higher RPM (BEMF).
Other than the speed limit (which some units appear to be able to turn off and others can't), the TSDZ2 has a pedal-RPM limit of about 90. This is a well known annoyance of the unit but it makes sense; to go faster puts it beyond its peak motor RPM - 4000. To get past this, you have to adjust gearing to keep the pedal "cadence" below 90 PRPM.

Several of us have posted links to calculators, and I even created my own. Find it on this thread:

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 9#p1293889

I recommend you get the youngest version!

BTW, this one was designed to let you compare various chainrings. Copy the spreadsheet and make multiples to compare different cassettes / freewheels.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by dom48 » Aug 15 2017 12:10pm

RTIII wrote:
dom48 wrote:Yes, the settings for mph and cc were set correctly to mph and 1. Here are the remainder of the settings:

D1=700
6km/h = ON (I don't know what this setting is for)
SD = ----
25mph limit = OFF
Amps = 18

I am using the power cutoff brake levers. I dont think that would affect it? The magnet is positioned approximately 1.5mm from the sensor. Average speed is also incorrect, it displayed 90mph. :lol:
Um... Without going to look it up... It won't take 700 as in the 700c tire specification - it probably thinks you have a 7" tire! That would explain the 90 MPH, yes? :lol:

I THINK the 700c wheel equates to 28" or 29" depending on tire mounted to the rim. Measure yours from the ground to the top of the tire in nearest whole inches! :) Or, feel free to lie to it if you want! :D
That's a possibility but the odd thing is that it displays the current speed correctly when I'm moving. I'll try the other diameters to see if that is the issue.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by RTIII » Aug 15 2017 12:43pm

dom48 wrote: D1=700
6km/h = ON (I don't know what this setting is for)
SD = ----
25mph limit = OFF
Amps = 18
[T]he odd thing is that it displays the current speed correctly when I'm moving. I'll try the other diameters to see if that is the issue.
The 6km/h thing is a "powered walking assist" feature. I don't really recall how to use it exactly, but I know it's documented WAY up-thread AND likely in the VLCD-5 manual. ... You've got that manual, yes?

The manual says that D1 is indeed the wheel diameter selection, but that its value must range from 14 to 32 inches, and it defaults to 26. So, just a guess, whatever error there is from your actual wheel size to 26" has you believing that the MPH is correct, though it's slower (the readings are higher) due to the 700C wheel being larger in diameter by a bit. ... And, my take is that it let you enter 700 which is outside the expected range and different software routines inside the device are handling the data differently, one saying screw it, use the default an the other guessing you mean 7"! :lol:

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by tomjasz » Aug 15 2017 4:23pm

Triketech wrote:
tomjasz wrote:What are the 18A controllers putting out for top speed? 15A?
My wife's trike has the 350W 36V. It runs out of steam at about 20 MPH, with my wife pedaling at about 180 watts human output, and its only pulling about 5-6 amps, probably about 180 watts due to the power loss at higher RPM (BEMF).

Sorry, I should have been clearer, I have the 48V version, just haven't gotten it mounted...
Thanks Justin_le we're here thanks to you. All the best to the mods for their tireless work keeping it on an even keel.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by dom48 » Aug 15 2017 5:16pm

RTIII wrote: You've got that manual, yes?

The manual says that D1 is indeed the wheel diameter selection, but that its value must range from 14 to 32 inches, and it defaults to 26. So, just a guess, whatever error there is from your actual wheel size to 26" has you believing that the MPH is correct, though it's slower (the readings are higher) due to the 700C wheel being larger in diameter by a bit. ... And, my take is that it let you enter 700 which is outside the expected range and different software routines inside the device are handling the data differently, one saying screw it, use the default an the other guessing you mean 7"! :lol:
Yes I have the manual. The 700 setting comes after 26 and before 28 so that assumes they really did mean 700c. Anyways, will try the other diameters this evening.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by RTIII » Aug 15 2017 5:24pm

dom48 wrote:
RTIII wrote: You've got that manual, yes?
Yes I have the manual. The 700 setting comes after 26 and before 28 so that assumes they really did mean 700c. Anyways, will try the other diameters this evening.
How Curious! ...My first TSDZ2 equipped bike is an old 27" wheeled Raleigh replica known as a Legran, and when I went to set its wheel size, there was a 27" entry available between 26 and 28, and I don't recall 700 being there, but then, maybe 27" AND 700 are between those?! :) And 27" came first! I suppose I can spark it up and see what all the settings are, but it's inconvenient at the moment.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by eyebyesickle » Aug 15 2017 5:27pm

dom48 wrote:
RTIII wrote: You've got that manual, yes?

The manual says that D1 is indeed the wheel diameter selection, but that its value must range from 14 to 32 inches, and it defaults to 26. So, just a guess, whatever error there is from your actual wheel size to 26" has you believing that the MPH is correct, though it's slower (the readings are higher) due to the 700C wheel being larger in diameter by a bit. ... And, my take is that it let you enter 700 which is outside the expected range and different software routines inside the device are handling the data differently, one saying screw it, use the default an the other guessing you mean 7"! :lol:
Yes I have the manual. The 700 setting comes after 26 and before 28 so that assumes they really did mean 700c. Anyways, will try the other diameters this evening.
Ah, updated version? I didnt notice this with my vldc 5 but i also have 26" wheels or less usually... I didn't see the 700c in the xh18, but zi dont have a vldc5 in front of me at the moment. If fooling with the speed sensor number doesn't fix it, let me know, we will get it sorted. This is a new one for me, I'm confident we will get it sorted, however

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by dom48 » Aug 16 2017 12:08am

I ran multiple tests with different settings for wheel diameter including changes to the wheel magnet (cc) setting. I cycled in an approximately 1 mile test loop and used a Garmin cycle computer for reference. I did not use the Garmin wheel sensor instead relying on GPS for speed and distance. I understand this is not the most accurate reference but for simplicity I'll call the Garmin readings "actual". Before testing I reset everything back to stock and then to the settings I previously posted.

Increasing the wheel diameter to 28 and 29 increased the odo/trip distance error. The current speed displayed high by 1-2mph compared to actual.

Reducing the wheel diameter to 26 decreased the error in odo/trip error and most closely matched actual for current speed. The odo/trip error is still in the magnitude of 2.5X.

Reducing the wheel diameter to 25 further decreased the odo/trip error to 2X actual and current speed was 1-2mph slower than actual.

Changing the magnet setting from 1 to 2 made the current speed to display less than half of actual however odo/trip were closer to actual, slightly lower by .2 miles.

On the final test with wheel diameter set to 26 and magnet to 1, I changed the 25mph setting from OFF to ON which allows the option to choose the max speed setting (which strangely was in kilometres since the max was 45). This setting did not improve the odo/trip accuracy and the current speed remained fairly close to actual. It appeared the motor did cut off assist at 25mph.

I'll need to keep using my cycle computer to track distance until these settings get sorted out.

Out of curiosity what is everyone using for power connectors? The stock motor connectors that are being used now don't look very robust. I have some extra deans plugs laying around from my rc car days as well as a watt's up wattmeter to measure current draw and consumption. Anyone else using these?
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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Patoruzu » Aug 16 2017 2:19am

If your speed and distance are doubled, then double the amount of magnets setting to halve it!
Then choose the right wheel diameter.
1 or 2 km/h is within the margin of error.

Remember that your wheel is not 28"exactly.
Go one inch up or down to fine tune it if you see it needed.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by extrasilver » Aug 16 2017 2:24am

i think i have my xh18 wheel size set up at 29 inch.. i'm running 700c x 28 wheels i have no idea if its accurate by any means but it gives me a little more headroom before i hit the 45kph limit
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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by squee22 » Aug 16 2017 4:53am

tomjasz wrote:What are the 18A controllers putting out for top speed? 15A?
Top speed is going to depend on your drivetrain, gear ratios, rolling resistance, tire size, weight, and muscles.....

I can get the 350W unit up to 40kph if I pedal hard. I run a 20inch wheel folding bike with a shinamo nexus 7 rear hub, and 60T to 16T gearing.
Since 32kph is the legal limit in my region for an e-bike, and for my insurance, I usually speed limit and hit the limit in 6th gear.

I weigh 175lb and usually ride with about 30 lbs of extra cargo, in which case I max out at about 35kph
Rear tire is a knobby offroad tire with additional rolling resistance. Front tire is a slicker street tire.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Waynemarlow » Aug 16 2017 5:40am

Santa'sLittleHelper wrote: I have a couple items I need clarified about the TSDZ2 as opposed to the BBS02. First is the “actual” torque sensor operation.

Mscoot – How much of a difference is there between your Bafang and your TSDZ2 with regard to applying more power when you pedal harder. It seems others aren’t feeling anything different other than the quicker on/off of the torque sensor other the simple Bafang method. A quick power shutoff when you stop pedaling in and of itself sounds great to me and probably would eliminate brake power cutoff wires for the way I ride.

Also, have you got use to the noise? And/or found a way to get it as quiet as a Bafang?

The last concern is "drag" when pedaling without power. IMHO the Bafang has substantial drag, especially after running it, so maybe heat plays a roll there (?). My Bafang felt like I was dragging massive magnets when I'd run the battery dry and tried to pedal it hot.

One of the posters mentioned the major drag issue for the TSDZ2 has as well. He thought it might be somewhat related to a large O-ring, but I'm guessing it is something else. What is your personal experience with drag when pedaling this mid-drive without power?
The Bafung and TDSZ2 are very different in their approach to torque sensing, one has zero sensing other than are you turning your pedals and the other a moderate amount of crude sensing which sort of replicates your input but only to a degree. The TDSZ2 system is good enough for the price you pay for it and is a far superior method if you want to feel like you are riding a bike rather than an electric powered bike AKA small moped. I really don't get how you can not feel a degree of sensing in it other than wonder if those complaining of little sensing are perhaps turning it on with a foot on one of the pedals, remember it recalibrates the sensor every time its turned on and if you are straining the guage at turn on then you will be getting a weird setup.

Noise, the Bafung is the quieter of the two by far but is it horrendous, no its relatively quiet and very acceptable if you take into the fact that you have gears and motors and such like all operating within a pretty confined casting. Basically accept that its noisier than your bike but its not going to irritate you.

If you are going to complain about it being difficult to cycle without the battery on, just accept that you will only have to if the motor or battery fails or go and buy a conventional bike for those moments you want to a be purist.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by dom48 » Aug 16 2017 8:00am

Patoruzu wrote:If your speed and distance are doubled, then double the amount of magnets setting to halve it!
Then choose the right wheel diameter.
1 or 2 km/h is within the margin of error.

Remember that your wheel is not 28"exactly.
Go one inch up or down to fine tune it if you see it needed.
Changing the magnet setting from 1 to 2 made the current speed display very low, for example the vlcd5 showed 8mph vs 22mph actual. This was with wheel diameter set to 26. I'll try increasing the wheel diameter setting while keeping the magnet setting at 2 but I don't think it's likely that the current speed will become significantly more accurate in relation to the increased wheel diameter setting.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by eyebyesickle » Aug 16 2017 9:31am

Yeah, I think something else is going on here... I'm checking with TS, and looking into it myself. Will report what we find out, and of course get you fixed up so you can get a proper reading
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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by RTIII » Aug 16 2017 10:03am

When reading the following post, I felt like I had fallen through the way-back machine and ended up in 2016:
Waynemarlow wrote:
Santa'sLittleHelper wrote: I have a couple items I need clarified about the TSDZ2 as opposed to the BBS02. First is the “actual” torque sensor operation.

Mscoot – How much of a difference is there between your Bafang and your TSDZ2 with regard to applying more power when you pedal harder. It seems others aren’t feeling anything different other than the quicker on/off of the torque sensor other the simple Bafang method. A quick power shutoff when you stop pedaling in and of itself sounds great to me and probably would eliminate brake power cutoff wires for the way I ride.

Also, have you got use to the noise? And/or found a way to get it as quiet as a Bafang?

The last concern is "drag" when pedaling without power. IMHO the Bafang has substantial drag, especially after running it, so maybe heat plays a roll there (?). My Bafang felt like I was dragging massive magnets when I'd run the battery dry and tried to pedal it hot.

One of the posters mentioned the major drag issue for the TSDZ2 has as well. He thought it might be somewhat related to a large O-ring, but I'm guessing it is something else. What is your personal experience with drag when pedaling this mid-drive without power?
The Bafung and TDSZ2 are very different in their approach to torque sensing, one has zero sensing other than are you turning your pedals and the other a moderate amount of crude sensing which sort of replicates your input but only to a degree. The TDSZ2 system is good enough for the price you pay for it and is a far superior method if you want to feel like you are riding a bike rather than an electric powered bike AKA small moped. I really don't get how you can not feel a degree of sensing in it other than wonder if those complaining of little sensing are perhaps turning it on with a foot on one of the pedals, remember it recalibrates the sensor every time its turned on and if you are straining the guage at turn on then you will be getting a weird setup.

Noise, the Bafung is the quieter of the two by far but is it horrendous, no its relatively quiet and very acceptable if you take into the fact that you have gears and motors and such like all operating within a pretty confined casting. Basically accept that its noisier than your bike but its not going to irritate you.

If you are going to complain about it being difficult to cycle without the battery on, just accept that you will only have to if the motor or battery fails or go and buy a conventional bike for those moments you want to a be purist.
Firstly, I looked for Santa'sLittleHelper's comment myself, but never found it here - must be from some other thread.

Then, I suppose Waynemarlow is remarking only in context to HIS Bafang and HIS TSDZ2, as Santa's helper had asked because it in no way reflects MY experience with the TSDZ2 - as backed up by many here: MY TSDZ2 is perfectly quiet and adds no perceptible drag whatsoever when not in use. Others have reported the same - on modern units, roughly those made since early June, 2017.

However, Waynemarlow is correct about the power-up process calibrating the torque sensor system each time, so NEVER start it up with a foot on a pedal! This "feature" is easy to test for yourself!

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Triketech » Aug 16 2017 11:21am

RTIII wrote: Then, I suppose Waynemarlow is remarking only in context to HIS Bafang and HIS TSDZ2, as Santa's helper had asked because it in no way reflects MY experience with the TSDZ2 - as backed up by many here: MY TSDZ2 is perfectly quiet and adds no perceptible drag whatsoever when not in use. Others have reported the same - on modern units, roughly those made since early June, 2017.
I've seen a few other TSDZ2's even rode alongside a few of them, one of them being a poster on this forum. Their units were built in 2016, and much quieter than ours. Nor is ours a fluke.

As for the drag its quite minimal when pedaling. Turning the crank by hand you can feel some drag for sure, but at 90 RPM cadence it on the order of a few watts of loss not really much penalty when you can toggle that and more back with a switch.

There is a case seal that imparts the most drag and if it is twisted in assembly drag goes way up. I think that happened to a couple folks, not many. Not hard to correct.

For the money this drive offers a lot; but as they say "you get what you pay for."

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by RTIII » Aug 16 2017 11:42am

Triketech wrote:I've seen a few other TSDZ2's even rode alongside a few of them, one of them being a poster on this forum. Their units were built in 2016, and much quieter than ours. Nor is ours a fluke.
If you read this entire thread, there were always reports you could summarize as either "loud" or "quiet", more rarely "heavy drag" or "little to no drag," and the speculation has long been that Tongsheng has had some manufacturing consistency - "quality control" - issues, and that seems likely. Nobody said, suggested, or intimated that it was a "fluke;" it's an aspect of industrialized production called quality control. Every unit that has been reported here that we know for sure was manufactured since early June has these two characteristics: no perceptible drag when not powered up, and no perceptible noise. Seems to me, they got their problems worked out.
Triketech wrote:As for the drag its quite minimal when pedaling. Turning the crank by hand you can feel some drag for sure, but at 90 RPM cadence it on the order of a few watts of loss not really much penalty when you can toggle that and more back with a switch.
Yeah, on your older unit. Or, as you yourself suggest, perhaps a minor assembly error that's trivially cured.
Triketech wrote:For the money this drive offers a lot; but as they say "you get what you pay for."
It's not at all clear why you're posting the same stuff here again and again; just hoping to get your digs in and hope nobody competently rebuts you? -shrug- I bet you have a financial interest in other units, such as the Bafang series as otherwise, there's no clear reason why you'd be repeating your criticisms.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Triketech » Aug 16 2017 8:09pm

RTIII wrote:
I bet you have a financial interest in other units, such as the Bafang series as otherwise, there's no clear reason why you'd be repeating your criticisms.
Not even close.

I do have an interest in honesty.

Do you object to that honesty?

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by aja » Aug 17 2017 5:33am

Triketech wrote:For the money this drive offers a lot; but as they say "you get what you pay for."
RTIII wrote: It's not at all clear why you're posting the same stuff here again and again; just hoping to get your digs in and hope nobody competently rebuts you? -shrug- I bet you have a financial interest in other units, such as the Bafang series as otherwise, there's no clear reason why you'd be repeating your criticisms.
My experience with Triketech or Denman on the BROL forum has been positive, objective and nothing has been pushed my way. This is why first hand experience is very important when one is sensitive to something (in my case, noise levels). If someone said that the new TSDZ2 was as quiet with a similar pitch to a Brose powered e-bike I would have more confidence in what to expect, as have ridden a Brose equipped bike and having looked at multiple forums in different countries and asked owners, and they all say their drive is near silent. Possibly an unlikely scenario regarding the TSDZ2 due to the belt drive on the Brose however, so I may be wishing for the impossible (unless internal belt drives are used in the next generation)...
Last edited by aja on Aug 17 2017 9:24am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Patoruzu » Aug 17 2017 6:25am

The pitch is what we heard here before.
No one ever heard it while riding next to me.
I hear it mostly through my legs while pedaling in the form of vibration. It's more noticeable during fast acceleration or high cadence. Otherwise almost imperceptible by myself.

Yesterday I was playing with the throttle while not pedaling (feet still on the pedals). The sound perception is even lower, even the pitch changes to a very low hum.
First time my gf notices the motor (she was sitting behind, probably getting it mostly through her bottom :) )

Ironically a louder and noticeable sound was produced when releasing the throttle (motor stopped) while yet not pedaling. That was the clicking of the free hub. Maybe an interesting test would be to compare with a sound meter these two sounds.

BTW, the one thing I miss from my pre motor bike (appart from less weight) is the ability to move the free hub while back pedaling (useful when calibrating my gears). Currently back pedaling is a silent frictionless, still chain action I presume the coaster breaks version provides this functionality (or what else would the coaster version be). Can anyone confirm this?
Last edited by Patoruzu on Aug 17 2017 12:19pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by tomjasz » Aug 17 2017 11:17am

Anyone running the metal gear?

Nice web site!

Anyone running the metal gear?

Nice web site!

http://recycles-ebike.com/tsdz-series/7 ... ement.html
Last edited by tomjasz on Aug 17 2017 3:33pm, edited 2 times in total.
Thanks Justin_le we're here thanks to you. All the best to the mods for their tireless work keeping it on an even keel.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by dom48 » Aug 17 2017 10:55pm

dom48 wrote:
Patoruzu wrote:If your speed and distance are doubled, then double the amount of magnets setting to halve it!
Then choose the right wheel diameter.
1 or 2 km/h is within the margin of error.

Remember that your wheel is not 28"exactly.
Go one inch up or down to fine tune it if you see it needed.
Changing the magnet setting from 1 to 2 made the current speed display very low, for example the vlcd5 showed 8mph vs 22mph actual. This was with wheel diameter set to 26. I'll try increasing the wheel diameter setting while keeping the magnet setting at 2 but I don't think it's likely that the current speed will become significantly more accurate in relation to the increased wheel diameter setting.
Had time for a quick test run and confirmed that with magnet setting on 2 and wheel diameter set to maximum setting of 30, the odo/trip was only 7% lower than actual. However current speed display was still very low, at 15 mph the vlcd5 displayed 10mph, at 20mph the vlcd5 displayed 12 mph. Until we hear back from TS I'll have to decide between accurate odo/trip vs speed. The weird thing is the vlcd5 displayed the average speed correctly, within 1 mph of actual.

I do notice there is some very minor gear whine at speeds of 15mph or less. Greater than that speed, wind noise takes over and it's imperceptible. The gear whine doesn't bother me one bit. It's not loud enough to cause attention.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by extrasilver » Aug 18 2017 2:08am

tomjasz wrote:Anyone running the metal gear?

Nice web site!

Anyone running the metal gear?

Nice web site!

http://recycles-ebike.com/tsdz-series/7 ... ement.html

i have one on the way.. if that counts? :)
“Speed has never killed anyone. Suddenly becoming stationary, that's what gets you.” -Jeremy Clarkson
if it has boobies or wheels.. its going to cost you money

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