#crossbreaks' midmotor CB120

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bionicon
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Re: Custom RV120 for ebike use: group order Rv120-ES edition

Post by bionicon » Thu Jan 26, 2017 12:02 pm

Wheazel wrote:Is that Joby pricing territory? Or did you strike a good deal on those?
euh yes i think, maybe even more expensive HST controller 1313 euro ,QST150 -45-4-71 was 1995 euro and the cablekit 218euro and last usb to can interface 99euro . :shock: And thats the price without taxes!!
I hope thats the price for german quality. :roll:
Take a risk with this because no feedback , just have seen a 10 second film of a converted husqvarna(with 2 Q150 motors on it) dont even find any film with a hacker-motor on a vehicle.

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macribs
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Re: Custom RV120 for ebike use: group order Rv120-ES edition

Post by macribs » Thu Jan 26, 2017 4:12 pm

@Bionicon Be sure to shout out when you start a build thread, so far the Hacker combo is nothing by urban myth for me. Hopefully the combo will do as claimed. You for sure got a serious lightweight motor, I think the hacker site mentioned 20 kw peak power. Look forward to see your build progress.

Meanwhile some place in europe:



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macribs
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Re: Custom RV120 for ebike use: group order Rv120-ES edition

Post by macribs » Sat Jan 28, 2017 8:21 pm

crossbreak wrote:vid seems to be deleted
For some reason the poster made video private :(

Well anyway, I was posting about a outrunner.
But seems there are clones of the dlc28 motor around, maybe those clones can an alternative to Revolt? Maybe with a custom kv?
look at samd's post: https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 9#p1260706
hit up samd for these controllers


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madin88
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Re: Custom RV120 for ebike use: group order Rv120-ES edition

Post by madin88 » Sun Jan 29, 2017 3:04 am

I like the idea of using a controller which doesn't need any kind of positioning sensors for providing high torque at 0 rpm.

http://pearcontrol.cz/en/products/motor ... propulsion

equipped for state-of-the-art sensorless control with mathematical motor model, determining of rotor position at zero RPM based on machine saliency

Pear control isn't that far away from my place (about 250km)
- Votec V-FR frame / MXUS 3T / 17" Mitas MC11 / Adaptto Max-E / 20s12p 25R -> approved as L1e moped and fully road legal in EU :)
- Vector white / MXUS 4T / 24" Hookworms / Adaptto Max-E / 22s11p 25R
- KTM Hardtail Pedelec / eZee V2 6T / 27,5" / Kelly KBSX @ 1,5kW / Torque PAS / CA-V3 / 13s4p Sanyo GA in Shark case

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Re: Custom RV120 for ebike use: group order Rv120-ES edition

Post by larsb » Sun Jan 29, 2017 3:21 am

Just to correct some facts about the revolt RV120&pro: Laminations are 0.5mm (measured by me and confirmed by Revolt for both 120std and 120pro

"Only the RV-100 and the RV-160 (regular and Pro) have 0.3 lamination, the RV-120 (regular and Pro) have 0.5mm laminations."

Really looking forward to seeing a Hacker150 build!

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macribs
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Re: Custom RV120 for ebike use: group order Rv120-ES edition

Post by macribs » Sun Jan 29, 2017 11:05 am

@Madin88 I think Neematic uses pear controller. I am sure pearcontroller have good products, but they really don't wanna deal with end user asking for 1 controller. Probably only way to get to buy from pearcontroller would be to organize a group buy to reach their MOQ as they don't reply to emails regarding 1 piece of controller. Or at least that was the case last summer, and fall. Pearcontroller also had a thread here a year or two ago that was abandoned after a few posts from them. But both the thread and their website looks very promising, and if they deliver on their claims their controllers should be really high performance, and high tech.

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Danny Mayes
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Re: Custom RV120 for ebike use: group order Rv120-ES edition

Post by Danny Mayes » Sat Feb 11, 2017 11:26 pm

Is anyone taking up Toolman2 on his offer a page back, to build a dialled in RV160 + controller combo?

Timing is not right for me but if it were, I would jump at this. It is a generous offer and we know T2 is good for it.

To receive back a race tuned set up with a lot of hours put into it, and all you got to do is send the guy a motor. This is too good to miss!

I mean he is even offering to cover the cost of shipping back.This is a BARGIN!

This will save whoever goes for this countless hours.

To fumble through what T2 has already learned, to discover what he has, to make these kind of motors perform is a feat in itself. You wont need to go through all that when he can race tune it for you.

This is the best offer out there for a newb to achieve a reliable 10+kw continuous power. Who knows what power T2 will get out of it, it could be 15kw or more. That motor and a kelly will be a VERY cheap way to big power. Especially considering you are not paying for T2's time.

Someone has got to jump at this. This is gold.

I am sure he can do Adaptto or whatever your preferred controller would be too, so this is a no brainer.


So who is it going to be?? Who's going to move at this?


D
Last edited by Danny Mayes on Sat Feb 18, 2017 6:37 am, edited 1 time in total.

larsb
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Re: Custom RV120 for ebike use: group order Rv120-ES edition

Post by larsb » Fri Feb 17, 2017 3:38 pm

But why use a revolt motor at all? If it needs to be rewound, replaced halls, rebalanced, redipped, repainted and whatever else!?
There must be better options out there that come within double the revolt cost? Because after you corrected all the faults you have essentially done just that: doubled or tripled the costs of the motor.

If i had known what was inside my two revolt motors then for sure i would have purchased something better - if you're not wanting to use it as a science project for school or something else not reality related.

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Danny Mayes
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Re: Custom RV120 for ebike use: group order Rv120-ES edition

Post by Danny Mayes » Fri Feb 17, 2017 9:09 pm

Well, as you know you get what you pay for.

And that is the point. If the 160 Pro does do 12kW for the $600 price tag, that is a damn cheap 12kW outrunner.

That is what T2 would discover for us, and then we would all know. This is what he is offering and as a bonus the person who purchases the motor, will get it back with optimum hall placement and knowing exactly what voltage and current to run it at for max reliable performance. Saving them a LOT of trouble.

I am not talking about rewinding etc, just correcting hall placement and finding the limit of its performance.

Sure there are other more expensive options but it would be nice to know what we can get on a budget.

Anyhoo, I have distracted this thread enough, apologies crossbreak. Just hoping this happens because I am sure the offer wont be there forever.

D

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Re: Custom RV120 for ebike use: group order Rv120-ES edition

Post by larsb » Sat Feb 18, 2017 2:06 am

No perfect hall placement will give good performance if copper fill is low. (It's at 22% for the RV120) That sets the limit for the motor output.

If revolt has the same winding quality for rv160 as for the rv120 (which is likely, don't you think?) then the 12kw is just a figure on a paper.

If someone is enthusiastic enough to test then i would applaud the effort to verify the real capacity.
I recommend using another motor for the job if a 12kW powerhouse is what you want.
Last edited by larsb on Sat Feb 18, 2017 1:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

jonnydrive
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Re: Custom RV120 for ebike use: group order Rv120-ES edition

Post by jonnydrive » Sat Feb 18, 2017 2:35 am

Danny Mayes wrote:Well, as you know you get what you pay for.

And that is the point. If the 160 Pro does do 12kW for the $600 price tag, that is a damn cheap 12kW outrunner.

D
Hi, keep in mind that shipment and taxes rises a lot the final price. When I purchase my rv 120 pro, I paid 395€ for the engine and shipment plus 120€ of taxes and customs duties. Revolt, unlike the Chinise shops, declare the total amount of price on the package that it ships. Customs apply taxes based on what is declared by the seller.

bottom line: consider to add + 20-30% of taxes (depending how hungry is your country).


Stefano

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Re: Custom RV120 for ebike use: group order Rv120-ES edition

Post by nutspecial » Sat Feb 18, 2017 6:26 am

I have to agree with larsb on this. I will prob only try if I see others' success, and so far am not impressed. I find a much slower motor much more desirable- I don't want crazy complicated and high maintenance reductions that run best on low volts and ridiculous amps, and when we're talking apples/apples that means heavier= better. The other stuff is awesome and exotic but seems even a little counter-intuitive.

The 11lb 30kv bht is in a great spot for good simple power and reliability on a lite ride, and doesn't even cost much when you can find one ($250). The low kV allows for a single managable reduction with good 20-24s voltage to make the most of an 18fet 4110 controller (perhaps 7.5kw I've tested @)- and just imagine improved lams etc for efficiency. Add some air or water cooling to deal with waste for huge cab increase beyond that. As soon as mine would get hot to touch I'd just go near wot on flat and it would cool quickly.
Besides that, and seeing more available, I'd also like to see form factors similar to the bigblock version (without the big pedestal legs), and versions both up and down 50% weight / capability.

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Re: Custom RV120 for ebike use: group order Rv120-ES edition

Post by jonnydrive » Sat Feb 18, 2017 6:08 pm

larsb wrote:I just finished a build with rv120 PRO and my results are not up to specs. Does anyone have really good results from this motor in a completed build? Looking at the motor spreadsheet the data from John in cr shows good performance, which controller was used in this testing?

I ask because i tried both Kelly sine kls-s7230 and adaptto midi. On both controllers the auto- identify does not work, after manual connection it works ok but motor heats up really fast. A couple of bursts WOT up to 70km/h and motor is 150 degrees C and must be cooled. Torque is ok but not great, 6kw of power really should give acceleration.
Hi larsb,
I am facing exactly your problem with rv 120 pro and kelly KLS-7230 controller.
Unfortunately I had already bought the motor when your post came out.....

Can you suggest me some setting/tuning to the controller to obtain an acceptable performace without rewinding/modding the engine (I still hope in a revolt warranty)?

I am trying various controller settings and keep trax in this post https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 28&t=86532 for future memories.

Thanks

Stefano

larsb
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Re: Custom RV120 for ebike use: group order Rv120-ES edition

Post by larsb » Sat Feb 18, 2017 8:02 pm

@johnnydrive: this is offtopic for the group order topic so i'll post in your thread.

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crossbreak
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Re: #crossbreaks' midmotor CB120

Post by crossbreak » Mon Apr 03, 2017 8:47 am

good news. after the problems with ReVolt i decided to make my own motor. It will fit the needs a bit better than the revolt. The Km² is double compared to the RV120 Pro but it will come in at around 4kg. it has more poles (30 instead of only 14) and around double the copper. It has very little cogging, also much better than revolt. Best thing is: The price will almost stay the same!! i think i can make it for $500 incl shipping :mrgreen: not completely sure about that yet, but i think i can do it :? I wont get rich by this though...but i finally have the motor i always wanted. now i want to contribute to those who teached me how to design it.

Specs (not final, just calculated during design):

Model: Cross'-Mid-Motor - CB120
kV: 30 rpm /V
terminal resistance: ~30 mOhm
pole pairs: 15
slots: 27
turns per coil: 2
Air gap Ø = 110 mm (edit)
Stack length: 40 mm (edit)
weight ~4 kg
cooling: combined air and ferrofluid (Statorade, supplied by GrinTech. Canada) cooling system. could later be upgraded with watercooling if someones is interested (more expensive)
sprocket: 14t bycicle chain or 16t #35 chain or 36t HDT M5-25 (your choice)

i will offer a mount and tire kit for 26" bikes with 68...73mm BB width in August 2017

here is a pic of winding the first ptototype

BTW: changed the topic name to #crossbreaks' midmotor CB120
Attachments
Winding 2T.jpg
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Last edited by crossbreak on Mon Apr 03, 2017 10:49 am, edited 2 times in total.

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crossbreak
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Re: #crossbreaks' midmotor CB120

Post by crossbreak » Mon Apr 03, 2017 8:50 am

forgot to add: Of course it is terminated in WYE (star). For those who want more kV i can add another set of halls that is placed correctly for delta termination. kV should be around ~52 rpm/V then

Edit: WYE is meant for 18...22s Li-Ion operation (72V systems) and the Delta is meant for 12..14s (48V systems) . But if you want to go 30s or so then i can make you a custom 3-turns windung, no problem. just 1T would be quite hard to make, i guess. But this is too fast anyway, iron loss will become a problem even at 48 V and 1turn.

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spinningmagnets
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Re: #crossbreaks' midmotor CB120

Post by spinningmagnets » Mon Apr 03, 2017 9:11 am

This looks awesome! I am looking forward to how it turns out...

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riba2233
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Re: #crossbreaks' midmotor CB120

Post by riba2233 » Mon Apr 03, 2017 9:16 am

Nice work, bravo! 8)

larsb
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Re: #crossbreaks' midmotor CB120

Post by larsb » Mon Apr 03, 2017 10:16 am

Interesting! If i don't get the revolt rewind to work then i might get one! When are they available?

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crossbreak
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Re: #crossbreaks' midmotor CB120

Post by crossbreak » Mon Apr 03, 2017 10:32 am

I think that i can ship out the first kits in August. It is meant to work at around 7 or8 kW (electrical), using this controller: KLS7218S http://kellycontroller.com/kls7218s24v- ... h807h7pu82

I can ship it with the controller if you want, so we can sove some shipping costs. The controller is $199.

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crossbreak
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Re: #crossbreaks' midmotor CB120

Post by crossbreak » Mon Apr 03, 2017 10:34 am

The kit itself will look a bit like my old one shown here: https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 75#p879041
Image

The mount kit will be somewere around $100 i think.

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crossbreak
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Re: #crossbreaks' midmotor CB120

Post by crossbreak » Mon Apr 03, 2017 10:46 am

a rear wheel with 135x100mm solid chrome steel axle and M10x1 threads will cost around ~$??? per wheel. It will be built with a 21x1,6" moped rim and is meant for 2.5" to 3.5" wide tires. Tires wider than 2.5" may not fit every 26" MTB frame, tires more narrow than 2.5" do not fit the rim. I make this as universal as possible, but this has its limits.

The Hub will be custom-made, the price depends on how many people want such a wheel or hub. People who want to save money should buy just the hub and make the wheel them selves (lacing...). I am more a motor guy than a wheel builder and i have limited time for wheel building...

Some time later i will offer a kit to make the hub fit 142mmx12 and 150mmx12 through-axles and threaded axles for those with a wider frame. Fatbikes come last...not this year as I dont own one to test the kit (yet ;) )

larsb
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Re: #crossbreaks' midmotor CB120

Post by larsb » Mon Apr 03, 2017 12:05 pm

What will outside diameter of and width be for the motor? axle diameter?
A drawing with the major dimensions would be nice for the mid-drive version.

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Re: #crossbreaks' midmotor CB120

Post by SlowCo » Mon Apr 03, 2017 12:49 pm

Good luck Crossbreak. I'll be watching your progress.

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