#crossbreaks' midmotor CB120

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boisrondevens   100 W

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Re: Custom RV120 for ebike use: group order Rv120-ES edition

Post by boisrondevens » Nov 03 2016 11:44pm

I would strongly advice anybody that are buying revolt's motors to replace the phases and the halls wires...
Just do it...

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Wheazel   10 kW

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Re: Custom RV120 for ebike use: group order Rv120-ES edition

Post by Wheazel » Nov 04 2016 2:41am

larsb wrote: I read wheazel switched from RV120 to a leaf motor since he was not satisfied with efficiency (this is from reading his cargobike thread.)
A comment on this would be useful!
This is correct, I believe I dialed in the best efficiency I could get out of the revolt 120pro together with the maxE.
At least the best under my driving conditions. (Very light load for this motor)

The leafmotor did achieve a lot better efficiency overall but naturally didn't provide as much torque.
This was not big issue as the torque still was enough. Could climb the hills needed with and without cargo.

Since then I have switched to a mxus3000, only because I had one coming from the EU groupbuy and the leaf was braking spokes left and right after ~7000km.
Have not achieved the same efficiency with the mxus yet, but have not had the time to dial it in either. And now the bike is put away for the season.

I am still very interested in getting my rv120pro to work, and I am puzzled on what the status of this motor actually is.
How good is it? Reports vary from great to bad. 4motus apparently use a modified version of the rv160 for the latest offroad bike.

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Wheazel   10 kW

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Re: Custom RV120 for ebike use: group order Rv120-ES edition

Post by Wheazel » Nov 04 2016 2:42am

boisrondevens wrote:I would strongly advice anybody that are buying revolt's motors to replace the phases and the halls wires...
Just do it...
Care to give some background?

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Re: Custom RV120 for ebike use: group order Rv120-ES edition

Post by crossbreak » Nov 04 2016 2:10pm

Wheazel wrote: 4motus apparently use a modified version of the rv160 for the latest offroad bike.
you mean the neematic? Would be interested in which controller they actually use

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Re: Custom RV120 for ebike use: group order Rv120-ES edition

Post by riba2233 » Nov 04 2016 3:35pm

I think that mentioned problems are purely because of sine controllers not being dialed in properly. You should really try revolt with some "stupid" trapezoidal controller, I guess it will work like it should!
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Re: Custom RV120 for ebike use: group order Rv120-ES edition

Post by sn0wchyld » Nov 04 2016 4:12pm

crossbreak wrote:anyone who has a back EMF plot?
i dont have a picture, but the 100 pro has what looked like a near perfect sin. wave back emf last time i had it on the bench.

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macribs   1.21 GW

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Re: Custom RV120 for ebike use: group order Rv120-ES edition

Post by macribs » Nov 04 2016 6:00pm

crossbreak wrote:
Wheazel wrote: 4motus apparently use a modified version of the rv160 for the latest offroad bike.
you mean the neematic? Would be interested in which controller they actually use
AFAIK Neematic are using a custom made controller from PearControl.
PearControl in fact had a thread here last year, then a month later vanished from the forum never to be seen again it appears :?
Maybe if more people ask for info in their thread, I already holds the 4 last posts with no reply in that thread so I've given up myself, and they did not reply to my requests when I contacted them via their webpage. I do know others ES members have been in contact with them, so company is legit and up and running. Might have done an exclusive deal with 4motus so they can't promote their products here or something? Or possible they got too much on their plate to tend to forums. Who knows.
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... controller

Ther web
http://pearcontrol.cz/en

I do think an alternative could possible be the Hacker HST 350 sine wave controller. They are used for like e-karts with the Hacker Q motors and the controllers should be capable of both high RPM and 15-20 kw peak.

https://translate.google.no/translate?s ... t=&act=url

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boisrondevens   100 W

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Re: Custom RV120 for ebike use: group order Rv120-ES edition

Post by boisrondevens » Nov 04 2016 8:50pm

Wheazel wrote:
boisrondevens wrote:I would strongly advice anybody that are buying revolt's motors to replace the phases and the halls wires...
Just do it...
Care to give some background?

I have burned two rv-120. the second one flames was actual coming out of it. the second one was my fault because I push far too much power :twisted: . I got the second one from warranty. I opened the motor to change the phase wires cause I do that on all my motors. one off the phase wire was held only by the shrink wrap inside of the motor. the connection was held by a drop of soldering wire and it failed from fatigue.

I also change the phase wires from my rv-120 pro same thing...


I'll put some pictures later

This motor is still the best for me :lol:

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Re: Custom RV120 for ebike use: group order Rv120-ES edition

Post by sn0wchyld » Nov 04 2016 11:11pm

boisrondevens wrote:
Wheazel wrote:
boisrondevens wrote:I would strongly advice anybody that are buying revolt's motors to replace the phases and the halls wires...
Just do it...
Care to give some background?

I have burned two rv-120. the second one flames was actual coming out of it. the second one was my fault because I push far too much power :twisted: . I got the second one from warranty. I opened the motor to change the phase wires cause I do that on all my motors. one off the phase wire was held only by the shrink wrap inside of the motor. the connection was held by a drop of soldering wire and it failed from fatigue.

I also change the phase wires from my rv-120 pro same thing...


I'll put some pictures later

This motor is still the best for me :lol:
yea ive moved away from those motors given the very poor build quality ive kept seeing - and that is a particularly bad example. Shame because if built well they'd be great motors, and just hte right size for what many on ES want...

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macribs   1.21 GW

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Re: Custom RV120 for ebike use: group order Rv120-ES edition

Post by macribs » Nov 05 2016 1:17am

Crossbreak, how did the group order go? Did you get enough takers to place an order?
If not maybe we could do some application talk too in this thread, so that more people might notice and take interest. I am thinking that Revolt is not the most well known motors yet, even here at ES. And I am sure more people then me are thinking of ways to use Revolt in a setup, to use left side drive, jackshaft, or drive the crank. Maybe if we stray a little off topic more people would jump aboard?

Is your thread and your call. Let me know what you think so I don't litter your thread and stray OT if you are dead set on keeping this strictly motor.

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Re: Custom RV120 for ebike use: group order Rv120-ES edition

Post by Karolis » Nov 05 2016 12:22pm

Currently I am remaking RV160 PRO for ebike. Made one cover with adapter for 14t motorcycle sprocket (420 chain). Finished freewheel adapter for another cover. Made new stator holder. Now left to finish one cover and new motor axle. Don't know if it will work out. I hope :)
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Re: Custom RV120 for ebike use: group order Rv120-ES edition

Post by toolman2 » Nov 10 2016 9:20pm

Its been interesting to see the highly varied results people have reported using these motors from boisrondevens highly unlikely claim of 0 to 60 in under 2.5 seconds to very far from it with poor hall placement and even after adjustment, overheating even at low power levels. A few years ago when the Rv120 first came out i got one to try in a bike to race in 125cc category with flattrack gassers and within reasonable budget and tested it just for torque output to work out the gearing for 200-250Nm to the wheel, it came out pretty well -a little better than the BHT and is also lighter.

It never got to compete though as it got above 220deg c pretty quickly in use and would not really accelerate any better than a cro motored version of the bike, even when geared low for about 65kph. By then it seemed like i had maby cooked the magnets although i dont think the KV went up much so i dont really know why its performance dropped from what was initially a very reasonable test result for the money.

The results of this basic test are below with a BHT '1000w' motor for comparison, its a simple locked rotor torque/saturation test like Justin has done a while back and is likely the best way to measure the ability of a motor to produce torque and tells you the 'cost' of producing it in Watts from the battery, 1kw to 1.5kw is around the level of waste heat motors of this size run open are capable of shedding short term or sustain with a bit of fan cooling so the Revolt was capable of 26.2 and 30.1Nm respectively, but remember the test was done before running it on a bike. :wink:

Curious if they have changed to better magnets and thinner laminations than this early (.5mm lam) Rv120 that was before the pro's came out, the guys who made them were good to deal with and were prepared to make improvements to hall positioning and phase wires etc and now with the newer Rv160pro long im thinking i might offer to buy one, test it on a dyno and IF (at 9kg) it can come close the output power of the Joby jm1 (at 2.7kg) then ill keep it and merrily race it alongside the Joby bike and hopefully find that 6 kg's extra is not really a problem, however if not then ill post it back and ask for a refund. TBH even 15kw measured output for 30 seconds would be enough, and i think it could likely be capable if they have made progress since the early stuff and it then to me becomes a perfectly viable and cheaper motor option.

The same requirement/test for a 120 pro (at say around the 7.5kw output level?) could also be offered and to me seems like the only way to clearly show where the truth actually sits, it would require many hours of work to set up and multiple efforts to get the best result possible with tuning and various controllers etc but im more than happy to put the time in because i want to know.
Ive had a few pm's back and forth with most of you guys on this thread on this type of subject over the years so you probably know that im plenty keen for measured truth and have a fairly low tolerance for bullshit, so sure when people are laying it on a bit thick online with claimed power levels etc, the facts are often not what people want to hear, but for this job its the sole requirement.

So what do folks reckon? Once we settle on a fair and reasonable expected output figure (and max temperature :) ) on any motor that we are interested in, instead of 10, 20 or more of us buying a motor and pissing about without any quantifiable result, we put the offer to the manufacturer/seller that we want to buy a motor and if it makes the grade then were all good and i send it to whoever wanted it and paid for it, and if it doesn,t then it goes back and you get refunded. Upon purchase a manufacturer who says NO to the option of refund for a motor that does not meet their own spec saves us the trouble and reveals their true confidence level, ones that prove their metal will build buyer confidence and sell more as a result.

Im half keen to go first on this with the rv160, as i have a use for it, but either way i think this stuff clearly works better when done publicly, and im a big fan of getting the power (in both forms) back to the people :wink: and moving forward on good EV gear whilst reducing the stockpile of useless stuff that we often blow our hard earnt money on, i reckon paypal would be our friend here and a simple written agreement before purchase. its a game we can all play a part in and get a benefit from so any thoughts and ideas on this general idea are welcome, if there's enough interest here ill start a new thread on the EV dyno etc and maby offer to test any motors people want to send for free initially and the results go up on ES. SplinterOz and myself are planning on using this closed loop dyno control and software;
http://dtec.net.auInertia%20&%20Brake%20Dyno%20(Dynamometer)%20Software%20-%20Kart,%20RC,%20Bike%20&%20Car-%20Engine%20&%20Chassis.htm (main screenshot pasted below) -but tweaked for dedicated EV use with extra inputs for phase current and battery Amps/Volts to display efficiency and saturation. - So do folks want to help make this happen? Do you think we can create enough interest to keep the manufacturers honest? and is the Rv120/160 offer reasonable?

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litespeed   100 kW

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Re: Custom RV120 for ebike use: group order Rv120-ES edition

Post by litespeed » Nov 11 2016 8:00am

For us not so techy guys I think this what we need. Most of us can do the mechanical parts of building mounts, gearing etc.... but the motor and controller quality, setup and rest of those details keeps most of us stuck on the bench.

I do not have the full amount to buy the whole set up but could help in a group purchase to get testing done....

If the Revolt guys know there product is good and want to sell a bunch this would be mutually beneficial to both them and us. Possibly a cheaper "test" subject could be purchased.

Can they think of a better way to advertise their product?

Tom
I'm married so you know I'm no stranger to pain!

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macribs   1.21 GW

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Re: Custom RV120 for ebike use: group order Rv120-ES edition

Post by macribs » Nov 11 2016 10:01am

Let me check if I understood you correctly Toolman2.

You are proposing a group buy of 120 or 160 motors. Before we put in the actual order you will get 1 motor to test it to check if the specs claimed by manufacturer are the real truth.

We as a group pay for the test motor together, so the cost of the test motor divided by number of buyers? And this we pay now upfront, which seems fine as it will give us a true test in return. Then if motor pass your test we each pay for as many motors we need and group buy is completed?

If this is the case I will be in for at least 1 x Rv 160, possible 2 x Rv 160.

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Re: Custom RV120 for ebike use: group order Rv120-ES edition

Post by Wheazel » Nov 11 2016 11:30am

Also willing to contribute to a quality test of either the 120 or 160.
Depending on results I might want more than the 120pro I have already.

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Re: Custom RV120 for ebike use: group order Rv120-ES edition

Post by boisrondevens » Nov 11 2016 1:17pm

Ok

I have 2 rv-120 regular, one rv-120 PRO and rv-100. I know a little about those motors. I have report to Alexes ( revolt manager or sale man) the problems with the halls placement and the phases wires soldering problems I had
I you do any testing and haven't rewire the phase and the halls position so the results wont be good.
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sn0wchyld   1 MW

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Re: Custom RV120 for ebike use: group order Rv120-ES edition

Post by sn0wchyld » Nov 11 2016 8:43pm

boisrondevens wrote:Ok

I have 2 rv-120 regular, one rv-120 PRO and rv-100. I know a little about those motors. I have report to Alexes ( revolt manager or sale man) the problems with the halls placement and the phases wires soldering problems I had
I you do any testing and haven't rewire the phase and the halls position so the results wont be good.

:shock: :shock: :shock:

Thats particularly bad... makes me wonder about the care they've taken in other areas (like wires shorted to stator etc) given the troubles i've heard from other people. Shame, because they've got a good niche market - not many others making motors in this power range/size etc.

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Re: Custom RV120 for ebike use: group order Rv120-ES edition

Post by larsb » Nov 12 2016 2:29am

What is the issue with hall placement on the picture? I'll check my motor for any issue.

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Re: Custom RV120 for ebike use: group order Rv120-ES edition

Post by macribs » Nov 12 2016 2:24pm

It seems like the hall sensor in the pic is a braned spanking new one, not even wired up yet. So I guess he had to do a swap of halls.

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Re: Custom RV120 for ebike use: group order Rv120-ES edition

Post by larsb » Nov 13 2016 2:14am

Ok, i see now. Its the legs of the halls you see in the pic, i thought it was glue residue :)

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Re: Custom RV120 for ebike use: group order Rv120-ES edition

Post by John in CR » Nov 13 2016 10:49am

Boisrondevens,

What was your issue with the hall placement? I'm adding halls to my v1.0 R120 to finally put it into service and plan to place mine similarly. It doesn't matter which of 3 equally spaced (for 120°) to put them between, does it?

Regarding their 15kw power and 96v volt ratings, while even with good cooling they might hand the 15kw input claim, anyone planning to do so on a bike is doomed to inefficiency and heat problems. I'll know the numbers with no load tests, but the iron losses will get high at high rpm with those 0.5mm lams.

No load current, actual Kv, and phase-to-phase resistance will tell me everything I need to know with only 1 big question in my mind. That is what are the effects during operation of all that flux leakage coming through the bell housing? Is the magnetic flux created in the stator wasted from having such a thin magnet back iron? If so, that's bad and I've gotta come up with a way to reduce it, which would hopefully reduce Kv at no cost (ie no increase in resistance), IOW increase Kt (torque/amp) without a change in copper loss.

Too bad high voltage controllers aren't readily availabe, because even my little MiniMonsters (150x50mm stator) are far more motor thatn these.

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Re: Custom RV120 for ebike use: group order Rv120-ES edition

Post by 9lives » Nov 14 2016 3:22am

Hi all,
At the risk of repeating comments in my build page I have been struggling to get my RV160 short to perform to its performance specs so I thought I would pen some notes here as they may be applicable for the RV120.

For those struggling with adaptto controllers I would strongly recommend you not rely on auto detect short of getting it going in first instance as the settings proved way off in my experience. First off, once you have run auto detect would recommend you check the health screen to ensure the hall sequencing is correct. It should go 1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2 etc when you slowly turn motor. If you get this right the hall offset angle should be 0. Next run the motor at full throttle and adjust the angle correction until you get the smoothest running/highest rpm and crisp throttle response. My 160 was happiest around +6 degrees when auto detect had a negative figure (there is a youtube video with very different settings which I tried first but it overheated). Next run a full throttle and adjust Ind timing until you get highest rpm without missing then check throttle response (you may have to back off a bit else it misses on acceleration). Results of this achieved highest speed and minimal heat for the range of operation I have yet achieved.

For anyone considering the 160 be warned I have yet to achieve desired performance as the adaptto keeps going into protect mode just when things look interesting (<90amps). Oleg at adaptto suggested that this may be due to the revolts low induction. He has offered to lower my controllers triggering limit but advised that this comes with 'significant risk of completely damaging the device' so still considering way ahead. I have an old Lyen 18fet that I may try but have set it aside while I ride my neglected phaser.

I can only comment on the motor I have received but for what its worth, it doesn't appear to suffer any of the quality issues mentioned in this thread. I haven't pulled it apart but from what I can see the phase wires are not joined to any wire but rather terminate outside the motor at a length consistent with that required to join controller. I'm no expert but the halls look neat and have not caused any issues. Again, this is just my experience.

Any ideas to resolve my protect mode welcome noting it has nothing to do with obvious issues such as temps, voltage sag etc. The controller nor motor ever get warm but moderate acceleration or amps above 90 prompts the dreaded protect. Temped to try a 150-200 amp kelly controller but then I have to stuff around with BMS etc all the reasons I went adaptto.

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Re: Custom RV120 for ebike use: group order Rv120-ES edition

Post by John in CR » Nov 14 2016 6:43am

Kelly rates their controllers based on phase amps, so you can't take their rating and multiply it by pack voltage to get to power. IOW neither a 200A Kelly nor an Adappto is going to get you to the max potential of an RV160, and that's even considering that Revolt over-rates their motors too.

If you really want/need power in the 15-20kw range then you need a lot more motor, and a lot more controller too. To get there with a lightweight motor then it needs to spin up to pretty extreme rpm.

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Re: Custom RV120 for ebike use: group order Rv120-ES edition

Post by straby187 » Nov 14 2016 2:23pm

I have a 120 pro controlled by powervelocity 18fet and ive never had any sync issues so im inclined to believe hall placement is not a problem.. But opening it up when i first got motor did leave alot to be desired.. I run the motor a little above spec with 80v 80amps (6.4kw vs 6 kw) with phase amps around 190 and have yet to see the motor get above warm... I really hope it build goes though because i would love the same motor in a closed case for off road. These motor seem to have very low copper fill. Maybe the could send them out without magnet wire.. just a thought
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