Best Chain and Sprockets for High Power Right Side Drive

Discussions related to motors other than hub motors.
This includes R/C motors, botttom bracket, roller and geared drives.
Post Reply
User avatar
MitchJi   1 GW

1 GW
Posts: 3064
Joined: Jun 02 2008 8:09pm
Location: Marin County California

Best Chain and Sprockets for High Power Right Side Drive

Post by MitchJi » Dec 30 2008 4:29pm

Hi,

I'm planning on using a Nexus 8 Speed Geared Hub with a powerful RC Motor. I assumed running 1/8" chain would be strongest so I was trying to find out the external width online. I didn't find that but did find the following (link and brief excerpts):
http://www.surlybikes.com/spew3.html
4. 1/2x1/8" chains vs. 1/2x3/32" chains. 1/2x1/8" chains suck. Run whatever you want, but bigger isn’t better here. Yeah, they’re wider, but according to manufacturer-supplied data, they’re not stronger and they are definitely not of better quality. Multi-speed drivetrains is where the bucks are at, and chains that work on such drivetrains are where the manufacturers of chains showcase their innovations and developments in quality. The rollers are better, the plates are better, the pins are stronger, and the construction method (riveting procedure) is better on all multi-speed 3/32" chains. I guess if you grind your chainring and chain down the handrail every night at the local pub, a bigger 1/2x1/8 " chain will last longer, but most of us don’t and it won’t.
Is this outdated information? Is there a superior 1/8" chain, possibly designed for single speed use? What is the strongest or best 1/2" chain for high power usage? How wide is it (I still need the width)?
1....
In the case of an 11 tooth cog, that’s only 5 or 6 teeth at any given time! Unless your thighs are as big around as a Surly™ carpenter pencil, you will be able to make any low-gear transmission required for general one-speed off-road riding skip AT WILL, using an 11 tooth cog…

… and its not so different for a 16 tooth cog, probably the smallest rear cog you might have on your one-speed ride. Considering that you don’t shift, you’ll be giving EIGHT teeth the full wrath of your wide load up the harshest vertical climbs you choose to attack. What my long-winded explanation is getting at is that more teeth are better when it comes to an off-road one-speed drivetrain. One tooth makes a huge difference out back with regards to preventing skippage. Wear life, too, is improved with more teeth. Since you never leave that gear, every mile you spin is on the same few teeth. Your drivetrain will last longer and will skip less and will launch the chain fewer times if you use larger cogs and chainrings.

I recommend that you pick a big cog out back (18 teeth or larger) and experiment to find a gear ratio you like by varying your chainring sizes up front. The weight penalty here is practically non-existent; there is no benefit whatsoever to using a "Micro-drive" drivetrain on your one-speed off-road bike. Don’t do it! It’s dumb and you’re gonna hurt yourself on a steep climb.
I was planning to use the rear Sprocket that comes with the Nexus (I think 20t). Is 20t big enough? Would 22t have one more tooth engaging?

I don't have any questions about the following but the information might be useful or useful for discussion:

Might be outdated information. White FW's are designed for single speed use:
6. Hey, REPLACE YOUR PARTS OFTEN! You will have to. Let’s say the average dude spends most of their time in 5 or 6 different gears (out of 27, sheesh!) on any given multi-speed bike ride. You spend all your time in one gear. And you’re wrenching the snot out of those drivetrain parts in a way they weren’t designed for. Your parts will last 1/5 or 1/6th as long as the average dudes’. Ever wonder why you can’t get more than 3 months out of a freewheel before its starts skipping on you?...

BMX freewheels and even mountain-bike cassette bodies were never designed for the sort of repetitive, high-torque abuse that one-speeding wreaks on drivetrain parts. Until someone makes a bomb-proof freewheel or cassette hub (King? $$$), get used to replacing these parts often!
2. Chainline. Chainline refers to the alignment of the front chainring and the rear cog. Chainline is important on all bicycle drivetrains but especially so on a one-speed. A perfect chainline is one in which the chainring and rear cog are in perfect alignment with each other and the chain takes a perfectly straight path from the chainring to the cog. Anything less than damn close on a one-speed will result in premature drivetrain wear and frequent chain launching. Chain line can be fine-tuned by re-spacing your hub, adding or deleting freewheel spacers or cassette spacers, changing cranks, changing b.b. spindle lengths or shimming bottom brackets, using spacers between the crank spider and chainrings, and whatever else you can think of to get your ring and cog to line up nicely. Your drivetrain will be quieter, too.
5. Shifting-enhanced cogs vs. Normal cogs. Shifting-enhanced cogs, typically Shimano Hyperglide™ or Interglide™ cogs, refer to rear cogs that have been machined, stamped, pressed or otherwise manipulated to allow a chain to enter and exit easily for clean, smooth shifts on a 5- through 9-speed cluster of cogs. They work pretty good on multi-speed bikes and equally as well on one-speed bikes. Avoid using them on your single! When you put the power down, they’ll shift all right-- and you’ll be visiting the dentist.
Also related and interesting idea:

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/chain-life.html
If you have a single speed or internal gear system, I have an article a special technique for extending chain life.

One can make a case that it is better to use even numbers of teeth for straight chain drives, and keep the chain always set the same way on them. Here's why:...

...As long as you don't derail the chain and put it on out of its normal phase relation to the sprocket teeth, a considerably worn chain/chainrings can run smoothly and efficiently.

If you have a simple (non derailer) drive train with even numbered sprockets, you can considerably extend the lifespan of the drive train components by paying attention to the "phase" relationship of the chain and sprockets.
Thanks!

Mitch


User avatar
GGoodrum   100 MW

100 MW
Posts: 2908
Joined: Sep 20 2007 2:03pm
Location: South Orange County, CA
Contact:

Re: Best Chain and Sprockets for High Power Right Side Drive

Post by GGoodrum » Dec 30 2008 5:38pm

Interesting stuff. I, like you, just assumed bigger is better, and that the 1/8" chain was stronger/better. I also find the Sheldon Brown info on phase alignment, and the notion of using even numbered sprockets quite interesting. Never thought about this sort of thing before.

The Nexus 8 indeed comes with a 20T cog. The Nexus 3 comes with an 18T. I think 20T will be more than enough.

I think the White Industries ENO FW was probably not available when this comment was made, regarding these only lasting 3 months. Regarding the sprockets with the shift points included, I'm staying away from these. It won't be an issue with the Nexus cog, but it does come into play for crank-driven setups. There's lots of larger front chainrings available that are designed for front deraileur setups. I had to look hard to find some that were large enough (>50T...), had the 110mm BCD diameter and were not for a multi-chainring front deraileur setup. What I found was a 53T Sugino. It doesn't have the pins or ramps the multi-ring versions have.

-- Gary

User avatar
MitchJi   1 GW

1 GW
Posts: 3064
Joined: Jun 02 2008 8:09pm
Location: Marin County California

Re: Best Chain and Sprockets for High Power Right Side Drive

Post by MitchJi » Dec 30 2008 8:13pm

Thanks Miles!
Miles wrote:Wippermann 7R8,108 or 1R8 would be good choices:
http://www.connexchain.com/Chains/BMX/1_342.html
The 1G8 looks like what I want:
Our fully nickel-coated BMX chains offer a ‘cool’ design and can withstand extreme loads. Freestyle, Flatland or Dirt-track riders will be thrilled by the performance of the 1R8.

The 1G8 is definitely the first choice for the toughest “killer grinds”. The straight plates make it the strongest BMX chain on the market.
1G8 (nickel)
* fully nickel-plated
* straight plates to withstand extreme loads
* breaking load: at least 1.5t - 1/2" x 1/8"
* pin length: 12.4 mm
* weight: 659 g/96 links
* incl. spring clip
Do you know what the external width is or the distance required between cog teeth for two chains side by side?
Best Wishes!

Mitch


Buying a new Tesla? Use a referral code and get six month's of free supercharging. Please consider using our referral code:
https://ts.la/lynnem96959

The best quality batteries and lowest priced batteries for DIY EV's are tier 1 OEM Quality Cells from salvaged (wrecked) EV packs. Three examples are Chevy Volt and Nissan Leaf and Tesla Model 3 packs.

Nissan Leaf Module specs are here
Chevy Volt Pack Info - Salvage 16kwh Packs Under $2k here

User avatar
Miles   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 11020
Joined: Mar 16 2007 4:15pm
Location: London UK

Re: Best Chain and Sprockets for High Power Right Side Drive

Post by Miles » Dec 30 2008 9:12pm

I'll see if I can find out.

What are you planning to do to the insides of the Alfine? :shock: :)

User avatar
MitchJi   1 GW

1 GW
Posts: 3064
Joined: Jun 02 2008 8:09pm
Location: Marin County California

Re: Best Chain and Sprockets for High Power Right Side Drive

Post by MitchJi » Dec 30 2008 10:39pm

Hi Miles,
Miles wrote:I'll see if I can find out.
Thanks!
Miles wrote:What are you planning to do to the insides of the Alfine? :shock: :)
Why do you ask?

Gary knows someone who runs Nexus 3 speeds and Nexus 7 speeds with Eteks (60 mph in 1st :) ) and hasn't had any problems. He told me he thought the Nexus 8 would be just as strong. Also I don't plan to drive it like a hotrod but I would like 25-35 mph up hills.

Worst case it blows up, at which point if I can afford it (easier to do after the major work is complete) I'll consider a Rohloff. I could contribute with the pedals at a higher speed with a Rohloff and a friend told me they shift under power and shift multiple gears at a time (like 1st to 4th).

If I blow the first Nexus I could also drive it very carefully :( .
Best Wishes!

Mitch


Buying a new Tesla? Use a referral code and get six month's of free supercharging. Please consider using our referral code:
https://ts.la/lynnem96959

The best quality batteries and lowest priced batteries for DIY EV's are tier 1 OEM Quality Cells from salvaged (wrecked) EV packs. Three examples are Chevy Volt and Nissan Leaf and Tesla Model 3 packs.

Nissan Leaf Module specs are here
Chevy Volt Pack Info - Salvage 16kwh Packs Under $2k here

User avatar
Miles   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 11020
Joined: Mar 16 2007 4:15pm
Location: London UK

Re: Best Chain and Sprockets for High Power Right Side Drive

Post by Miles » Dec 31 2008 6:10am

Yes but:
GGoodrum wrote: I know a guy who builds custome electric chopper-style bikes, using Mars and Etex setups, and he saythe Nexus-3 is all he'll use. I should point out, however, that he uses V-belt drives, to the rear, and that provides a bit of natural slippage, like a clutch. Even still, though , these beasts have crazy power, and he's not had a single problem with the Nexus-3 hub.
[my underlining]

User avatar
GGoodrum   100 MW

100 MW
Posts: 2908
Joined: Sep 20 2007 2:03pm
Location: South Orange County, CA
Contact:

Re: Best Chain and Sprockets for High Power Right Side Drive

Post by GGoodrum » Dec 31 2008 12:10pm

Okay, what is it that makes you think the SRAM-3 is better/stronger than the Nexus-3? To me, the Nexus looks beefier, but I really have no clue, and no real data yet to compare the two.

-- Gary

User avatar
Miles   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 11020
Joined: Mar 16 2007 4:15pm
Location: London UK

Re: Best Chain and Sprockets for High Power Right Side Drive

Post by Miles » Dec 31 2008 3:21pm

To be honest, I have nothing specific to add but, if you asked me which one of the two to try first, I'd say the SRAM. Certainly haven't had any problems with my SRAM 3 speed on the Moulton - at nothing like the torque levels implied here, though. I think the most important thing is to avoid shock loads and to be careful when changing gear.

User avatar
Miles   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 11020
Joined: Mar 16 2007 4:15pm
Location: London UK

Re: Best Chain and Sprockets for High Power Right Side Drive

Post by Miles » Dec 31 2008 5:19pm

MitchJi wrote: Do you know what the external width is or the distance required between cog teeth for two chains side by side?
The pin length is the maximum width: 12.4mm. I should think the sprocket spacing (centre to centre) would need to be at least 14mm

User avatar
boostjuice   10 kW

10 kW
Posts: 959
Joined: Jul 27 2008 8:50am
Location: Canberra, Australia

Re: Best Chain and Sprockets for High Power Right Side Drive

Post by boostjuice » Jan 02 2009 9:30pm

KMC cool chain K910 also has a breaking load of at least 1.5tonne and is less expensive than most other brands.

KMC also make an extra stretch resistant chain catergorised for internal hub gears.

http://www.kmcchain.com/index.php?ln=en&fn=bu_bicycle

User avatar
MitchJi   1 GW

1 GW
Posts: 3064
Joined: Jun 02 2008 8:09pm
Location: Marin County California

Re: Best Chain and Sprockets for High Power Right Side Drive

Post by MitchJi » Jan 03 2009 3:24pm

Hi,

The KMC 910, their strongest chain is for 3/16" Sprockets.

The KMC 710 is described as:
K710 Kool Chain
For the "Kool" guys KMC makes this chain with an impressive tensile strength of 1,300 Kg.
Width 9.3 mm
From the Wippermann site:
Our fully nickel-coated BMX chains offer a ‘cool’ design and can withstand extreme loads. Freestyle, Flatland or Dirt-track riders will be thrilled by the performance of the 1R8.

The 1G8 is definitely the first choice for the toughest “killer grinds”. The straight plates make it the strongest BMX chain on the market.
1R8 (nickel)
1/2" x 1/8", pin length: 12.4 mm
weight: 659 g/96 links

breaking load: at least 1.5t - 1/2" x 1/8"
1G8 (nickel)
* straight plates to withstand extreme loads
* breaking load: at least 1.5t - 1/2" x 1/8"
* pin length: 12.4 mm
* weight: 659 g/96 links
From a review (1G8):
http://www.bmx-zone.com/en-article-id-637.html
Specs:
* 12.2mm overall width
* 1/2"x1/8"
* Thick, straight plates
* 14,700 newtons of strength!
* Oversized pins
* Colours: Silver, black, blue, red, custom colours if you order from Wippermann itself

Pros:
* Practically indestructable
* 1/2"x1/8", not 1/2"x3/16" (smoother running on 1/8" stuff than 3/16" chains like the KHE Collapse)
* Very high quality
* Less stretch/flex than any chain I've ever run in all my years of BMX freestyle & racing
I don't know how to compare "1.5t" and 14,700 newtons with a "tensile strength of 1,300 Kg".

Which chain would you recommend? Is the K710 strong enough for this purpose or will I regret not using the Wippermann? If Wippermann should I get the 1R8 or the 1G8 (maybe I don't need chain designed for "Grinding")?

The K710 is listed as 3mm narrower but I'm not sure that is correct (some online bike stores list the Wippermann as 9.3mm. If the K710 actually is 3mm narrower thats very attractive . It would be very nice to minimize the width of two chains side by side on the shaft. Does anyone know the actual width of the K710?

Thank You Very Much Everyone for your help!

Mitch

User avatar
Miles   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 11020
Joined: Mar 16 2007 4:15pm
Location: London UK

Re: Best Chain and Sprockets for High Power Right Side Drive

Post by Miles » Jan 03 2009 3:52pm

14,700 Newtons equates to 1499 Kilograms force.

1.5 (metric) tons = 1500 Kilograms.

User avatar
MitchJi   1 GW

1 GW
Posts: 3064
Joined: Jun 02 2008 8:09pm
Location: Marin County California

Re: Best Chain and Sprockets for High Power Right Side Drive

Post by MitchJi » Jan 04 2009 3:17pm

Hi Miles,
Miles wrote:14,700 Newtons equates to 1499 Kilograms force.

1.5 (metric) tons = 1500 Kilograms.
Thanks! Thats almost exactly the same as KMC710.

I'm planning to order the chain, cog and FW tomorrow. I am leaning towards the following (thanks for the links):
Wippermann 1R8 (1/8" - width 12.4 mm) for the chain between the cog and the hub.
Wippermann 7R8 (3/32" - width 7.4 mm) for the chain between the chainring and freewheel.

Using the 1R8 will give me a very strong chain where strength is required. Using the 7R8 will allow the sprockets to be closer together and make it a little narrower (space is at a premium).

As soon as I have the parts I can measure the exact requirements.

BTW the 1R8 is about $25 online and the KMC710 is about $15 so the cost difference is minimal.

This is from a comment on a mtn bike forum:
http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?p=5213348
Well, KMC looks to be the clear favorite, but only because nobody's tried the Wipperman Connex 7R8. It's a 3/32" BUSHING-type chain. Remember your old Suntour 6-speed, with the drivetrain that lasted forever? BUSHING chain! Even SRAM's 1/8" used to be bushing-type; no longer, and they're CRAP now! Wipperman appears to be the only manufacturer that is producing a 3/32" bushing chain anymore; probably because the buying public is used to the availability of "bushingless" chains, which shift better on a derailleur drivetrain, and are WAY cheaper to manufacture. A bushing-type chain will GREATLY extend your drivetrain life, since load is distributed over far more surface area. The 7R8 is single-chainline specific, so there is absolute minimal lateral play. Just make sure your chainline is DEAD straight.
I did some research years back and came up with this faq. Hope it helps;

Traditionally single speeders used 1/8 inch BMX chains, since most single speed (SS) bikes are just 26" wheel BMX bikes anyway. Other reasons include the fact that SS track bikes and old BMX bikes had 1/8 inch cogs and chainrings and since 1/8 inch chains looked bigger than 3/32 chains they must be stronger. Also 3/32 (7-11 speed) multi-speed rated (MSR) chains are designed to derail, something you don't want to happen on a SS bike. A second look however shows there had been a lot more R&D money thrown at MSR 3/32 chains by Shimano and SRAM, so most 3/32 chains meet or exceed the tensile or "pull" strength of 1/8 inch chains. Since most single speed components available today come in 3/32, it seems logical to use 3/32 chains. On the other hand, while some claim that 1/8 inch chains on 3/32 gears cause more noise and wear than 3/32 chains, the jury is still out on this matter as many more use prefer this set-up. In the real world, it would seem the use of 1/8 inch chains work fine on 3/32 components and some, such as the SRAM PC-7 and KMC Kool chains are stronger.

Prior to about 20 years ago, pretty much all chains had a bushing construction, meaning the two inner side plates are held together by tubular bushings. This construction worked very well until the need for thinner and stronger chains led the industry toward bushingless chains. That is not to say that bushing style chains are weaker, they are simply more expensive to make and more difficult to maintain. Also, as bushing style chains wear, they loose their lateral rigidly and shift poorly. Wipperman makes their Connex bushing chain which has a somewhat cult following. They are high quality chains and many swear by them. Further, there are also stainless steel chains. These are great chains for adverse weather, but a stainless steel chain is weaker than a standard steel chain, so should consider a real need for stainless steel, as they tend to wear faster.

One issue that comes up from time to time is the use of 1/2 links. The use of a ½ link allows you to vary the chain length by 1/2 inch intervals, rather than one inch with a standard link. This comes in handy when you are trying to convert a bicycle with vertical dropouts. 1/2 links are very plentiful in 1/8 inch and now available in 3/32 inch by spicercycles.com and KMC (i.e. AEBike.com).

So do you need a single speed (non MSR) over a MSR chain? No, not really. Is there any advantage to a 1/8 inch chain? Yes, there can be if you have chainline and/or derailing problems a SS chain can help; and as I said before some are stronger. However if you are using a tensioner such as the early Surly Singleator a 1/8 chain may not work. Additionally if your are having a problem with your Singleator skipping, they work best with a 3/32 “ chain, in the push-up mode, without a 1/2 link, and with the addition of a zip-tie connecting the Singleator arm to the chainstay.

The tensile strength of a SRAM PC-7 is about 2500 ft lbs and only come in 1/8 inch (and pimp gold); all other MSR SRAM chains (including the PC-58) are around 2023 ft lbs. The KMC Kool chains rate at 2860 ft lbs and come in both 3/32 and 1/8inch. The KMC Z chains (with an H in the model number) also come in both sizes (i.e. the 3/32 Z610H; my choice of chain), rate at 2640 ft lbs and are a bit lighter than the Kool chains. KMC ranks most if their MSR chains at 2314 ft LBS; I have not seen and published data for Shimano chains.
Best Wishes!

Mitch


Buying a new Tesla? Use a referral code and get six month's of free supercharging. Please consider using our referral code:
https://ts.la/lynnem96959

The best quality batteries and lowest priced batteries for DIY EV's are tier 1 OEM Quality Cells from salvaged (wrecked) EV packs. Three examples are Chevy Volt and Nissan Leaf and Tesla Model 3 packs.

Nissan Leaf Module specs are here
Chevy Volt Pack Info - Salvage 16kwh Packs Under $2k here

User avatar
wojtek   10 kW

10 kW
Posts: 963
Joined: Nov 29 2009 3:52pm
Location: Luxembourg
Contact:

Re: Best Chain and Sprockets for High Power Right Side Drive

Post by wojtek » May 09 2011 4:53pm

it has been over 2 years now...

and i am now trying to chose the chain - funny enough my research so far also found those 2 chains, Wippermann 1G8 or KMC 710
I am not sure much changed since 2,5years :)

Wippermann 1G8 (nickel)

* fully nickel-plated
* straight plates to withstand extreme loads
* breaking load: at least 1.5t - 1/2" x 1/8"
* pin length: 12.4 mm
* weight: 659 g/96 links
* 96 links incl. spring clip

KMC 710:
tensile strength of 1,300 Kg
weight:450g


KMC is much lighter and much cheaper. Wippermann is stronger [1.5t vs 1.3t], heavier and german quality.

Any experience with those? :D
WIRES AND CONNECTORS
http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/vi ... 31&t=30176
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 31&t=32244

KMX Cobra with Xlyte 5403
Go-One Evo with Cromotor
BATMOBILE - Astro 3220 / Nuvinci in progress
Giant CRS Alliance - yes, just pushbike! frock you..
3Element Espire - SOLD
Custom built Specialized BigHit with BBS02 - SOLD
Velokraft e-VK3 SOLD
Steintrike Mungo Sport HS3540-SOLD
Scorpion FS HS3540-SOLD
Kona Dawg BMC v2-SOLD

Post Reply