Klein Mantra Cyclone build - Going for PAIN!

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RageNR
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Klein Mantra Cyclone build - Going for PAIN!

Post by RageNR » Jun 08, 2016 7:40 am

Ello there fellow ES-ers (is that allowed?)

This will be my build thread for my newly acquired Klein bike.
Just picked her up a few hours back for $400.
It is a 2000 Mantra Comp, in duo-tone blues. I will be repainting her later.
Was so excited when I got home, I just had to take it out for a ride. That was @ 1am. Thankfully, TacoBell was still open. LoL

My original build thread was for a 1996 ProFlex Beast. https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... =2&t=80665
Many members advised against my plan for using that frame at high speeds. I agreed with their point, but that was the bike I had. It really was not suited for anything past 35mph.
The advice was to find and purchase an older DH bike, like a Giant. Unfortunately, in my area these are hard to come by. Price-to-value is completely out of whack in the resale market here. Have to work with the best I can get.
Yes, I could have bought one on Ebay. Not something I wanted to gamble with.

I posted the other build in the Technical section. Had some details I wanted to hash out before starting the build.
And I had a lot of questions when I initially made that thread. Here, I will try to clean up my ideas/direction.
Was trying to keep this build under $1000. With the cost of the Klein, and all the parts, I am expecting to avg $1250 :shock:


Platform
2000 Klein Mantra Comp
>Dual Suspension
>Frame Size - Large
>Frame Material - Aluminum
>Weight - 26lbs
>Swimgarm - the newest design by Klein before Trek stopped production. It is much stronger and beefier than the previous designs.
>Front fork - Answer Manitou MARS w/3.15in travel
>Rear Shock - Fox Float R w/7in travel
>Wheels - Bontrager Race
>Drive Components - Shimano LX/XTR 9 speed (11-32t)
>Shifters - Shimano Deore LX Rapid-Fire
>Brakes - Avid 1D-20 squeeze brakes (aka "Rim Crushers")
[the 2000 version of the Mantra has mounting points on the swingarm and front fork for disc calipers. Will be upgrading to these later on]
UPDATE: The stock front fork has mounting holes for a standard disc caliper. That one will be bolt on and go. The rear will require an adapter to fit current caliper mounts.


Kit Options
>Motor - Cyclone 1800-3000w 24-72v
>Freewheel - 5hole Brown $15
>Chainwheel - 3 Chain 48t-48t-24t (48 for speed, 24 for low end grunt)
>Mounting - The Cyclone is going to be mounted above the crank, against the front face of the swingarm. See pictures below for reference


Electronics
>Controller - stock one for now
>Display - Cycle Analyst v3 (CA3-DPS) $145 shipped from Grin
>Power - 3x Muiltistar 20,000mAh paks in 18s1p configuration (total of 75.6v, 20AH, 200A, 1330Wh) $130ish from HobbyKing
>Charger - still figuring this one out. Please comment if you have recommendations (want something that charges fairly fast {less than 3hrs}, but also want something portable to take with me {can charge slower})
>Battery Connection - Break away setup mounted under the seat. Batteries will be carried in a backpack.


Output Goals
Speed - 50+ mph
Output - 3000w, ..duh
Voltage - 75.6v (66.6 Nominal)
Range - 35-50 miles
Stealthy as possible
Fairly smooth ride. Reason for choosing a dual suspension MTB


Realistic Goals
44-48mph
3000w
75v
35 miles
Rockford Fosgate 1000w, 2 JBL 6x9s, and a 12in Kicker ported SUB-sqube :roll: :mrgreen: Was going to use a home theater bluetooth soundbar, but I like the handlebars my Klein came with.


Think that pretty much sums up the direction of the build. Let me know if I missed anything.



Now I would like to talk about a few other things on my mind.
First, I really like the Klein Mantra frame. It is a straight body tube, with no downtube. A completely open design. It just screams to be made into a mid-drive.
Image
Not my bike. LOOK AT ALL THAT SPACE!!! I just love the design.
It also opens the door for upgrade later down the line. Might decide to put a bigger motor on it eventually. 8000W anyone? heheheee

Another look:
Image

And another:
Image
^^^ This one has a Girvin carbon front fork, like the ProFlex.


Something else I had not considered before...

You know how a lot of MTB-ers will complain that dual suspension bikes rob pedaling power? I wonder how much of this will affect the dynamics of a mid-drive? Of course, it will depend on how it is set up, and the bike design as well.
The Klein Mantra is a dual suspension bike. BUT, with a huge key difference.
The entire rear of the bike is the swingarm, suspended by the 2 mounting points on the frame and the rear shock. The pedals and crank are part of the rear assembly.
This makes the bike ride like a hard tail when you are standing on the pedals. Only when you sit on the seat does the rear susp become active. Very interesting...

Ok, so what does it matter? Well, these mid-drives produce a lot of torque. If a bike is designed in such a manner that the rear suspended portion is separate from the crank, then the torque from the motor could move the rear. Maybe not much, but remember MTB riders complaining about loss of power by way of dampening from the rear susp. This could potentially rob power from the motor. Especially under hard acceleration.

Thinking on this made me realize something. The issue with the Bafang BBSxx motors is they are geared too low, and cause stress on the driveline parts.
Would that make a dual susp bike a better fit for these systems? One where the separation of rear susp and crank allow some relief from the high torque?
The Klein Mantra's design seems to be much better suited to a mid-drive. Everything that spins is suspended or all part of the same rigid structure.
Maybe I am way off the mark here. Still, it was an interesting thought.



Anyways, I am super stoked to get this project going. After I get the fund$ dilemma, choice of charger, and parts order locations figured out.. I will be ready to get started.
Please, comment away. I like to hear everyone's opinions and experiences.
And thank you to all that have provided feedback thus far. Much appreciated!
Last edited by RageNR on Jun 09, 2016 9:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
MOVE IT YOU BI-PEDALING OBSTRUCTIONS!!!!!!! RAAAAGGGGGEEEEEEEEE
My Klein Mantra mid-drive Cyclone build thread: https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 28&t=81052

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Re: Klein Mantra Cyclone build - Going for PAIN!

Post by nutnspecial » Jun 08, 2016 9:24 am

Congrats on scoring my long time favorite, tho I might be a little jealous yours is the newest version!
If it's as clean as the blue one you got a great deal- and actually, people sell just those frames for that $.
They say this was Gary's last baby, and a mint 2000 comp or race can be worth quite some cash.

Perhaps you feel there is less rear travel when standing, but I think travel remains the same. The pedals are just a completely different input geometry compared to seat. I get full travel on mine when standing and recommend a dmn air shock if you want to easily fine tune the rear. They have a slightly longer and shorter replacement.

The key of the design on a high pivot urt is the isolation of pedal stroke work when seated and it works great imo. Additionally I've always liked the unique susp esp for trail and light DH, tho some people don't like how the crank, seat, and rear wheel change distance from the bars. I find under susp compression is a great time for bike length to slightly grow, and rake to get more slack. It does lend itself quite well to a decent power middrive imo. It's not as capable on road or FR DH as specialized stuff, but they're a good middle road- XC.

Anyway, good score and I can't wait to see the build come together; please be cautious of any bike components (even if DH) with that kindof top speed!

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Re: Klein Mantra Cyclone build - Going for PAIN!

Post by E-geezer » Jun 08, 2016 10:47 am

Wow, you are really dredging up ghosts from my past. :shock:

I never rode that Klein, but I had some buddies with similar URTs back in the day and my first full suspension had a high single pivot. They worked, sort of. You'll become very familiar with stinkbugging when you slam on the brakes at the speeds you want to ride at. I would think you could buy a 10 year old 4" trailbike frame in your price range that would be way better.

This sums up that era pretty well.
http://www.bikemag.com/gear/web-monkey- ... LI8zumU.97

It'll be interesting to see how it rides with a motor on it instead of pedalling.
The older I get, the faster I was


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Re: Klein Mantra Cyclone build - Going for PAIN!

Post by RageNR » Jun 08, 2016 9:45 pm

E-geezer wrote:Wow, you are really dredging up ghosts from my past. :shock:
LoL
E-geezer wrote:I never rode that Klein, but I had some buddies with similar URTs back in the day and my first full suspension had a high single pivot. They worked, sort of. You'll become very familiar with stinkbugging when you slam on the brakes at the speeds you want to ride at. I would think you could buy a 10 year old 4" trailbike frame in your price range that would be way better.
I've heard all the issues and concerns with the design. I do not doubt I will experience it at some point.
When I got home last night, I took her out for a spin. Got up to around 23-24ish mph and hit the brakes hard. Not as bad as I have heard about. Now, @ 40+mph, I am sure that feeling will change 120%. We shall see.
I've been looking for a while for a suitable frame. Cruze the local ad listings and Craigslist pretty much weekly. The thing is, if someone went through enough effort to bother to make a sale ad, they want more than 90% of a "fair" value. And here, most people want 200% of that fair value. Many many used things on the local CL can be had for cheaper NEW! It really is maddening what these idiots want for their used crap. That in turn makes our quality items (those of us that are selling nice things) fall through the cracks. I've had lots of NEW and good stuff up for sale for months. The only few bites I ever get are low-ballers and idiots that think its worth 5% of your more than fair asking price. That or they want to trade some of their junk for your nice item.
Sorry to rant. Some of you guys just don't quite grasp the fact that good quality items can't be had for fair values in other areas.
Not singling you out, just thought is was worth explaining. No bad blood intended..

But back to the Mantra>>>
It rides really nice. Much nicer than I was expecting. Does not appear to have been ridden much. Most likely due to the characteristics you described.
I do not plan on using this build on the off-road much. Only place I see it being problematic is coming to a stop from high speeds. And I would like to believe that locking out the susp would eliminate most of that.
nutspecial wrote:
how it rides with a motor on it instead of pedalling
Hopefully something like mine?
WTH mon? You been holding out on us? Git moar vids up NOUGH!! :D :D :D
Thanks on the congrats. Don't be jelly like my legs were last night. You still have a damn fine bike.

I actually like your model of Mantra better. If only it had the newer rear swingarm design. I love that color!
Also, the tube is smaller. Not as tall as the newer ones. Maybe that in conjunction with the older rear design are what made these problematic in the early days.
From my research, the new/fatter design was much stronger. I have not seen a rear triangle failure on one of these yet. Though, I am sure they are out there somewhere.

This is a picture of the one I bought:
8f275242dcb6aee3ed75f34324c7c6f9.jpg
8f275242dcb6aee3ed75f34324c7c6f9.jpg (239.08 KiB) Viewed 74 times
It really is in top shape. Just a few nicks here and there. The one on the main body tube is the worst. I'll take a pic of that later.
So for $400, I am hoping it was a good score.
MOVE IT YOU BI-PEDALING OBSTRUCTIONS!!!!!!! RAAAAGGGGGEEEEEEEEE
My Klein Mantra mid-drive Cyclone build thread: https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 28&t=81052

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Re: Klein Mantra Cyclone build - Going for PAIN!

Post by gman1971 » Jun 09, 2016 10:30 am

50 mph is just not possible at stock power levels under normal circumstances on a flat road. To have any chance of hitting 50 mph you will need either loads of kW, or at the very least some serious aero work, like aerobars, aerowheels, thin slicks, sitting superlow and on the aerobars, special helmet... etc, other people with a lot of money have tried and it just doesn't have the power to pull 50 mph on the flats. My trike is more aerodynamic than my eBike and to hit 50 mph it requires close to 4 kW or 4000W.

The best I've gotten with my eBike using 25mm wide slicks and aero rims is 50 mph on a steep downhill, and that was using ~2750 W to get there.

G.
I am all about high-speed, low-drag, mid-drives and gears...
A-1B trike, 6+kW, 65+mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFC8MRwvgUM
A-2A trike 3kW, 50mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNoqp0wl6Vo
eB-1C bike 3kW, 42mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_weSmz_h3Ig

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Re: Klein Mantra Cyclone build - Going for PAIN!

Post by robocam » Jun 09, 2016 11:54 am

It's got a fixed rear triangle. One less place it can break. Pedal power loss in the suspension? You pedal? =)

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Re: Klein Mantra Cyclone build - Going for PAIN!

Post by gman1971 » Jun 09, 2016 1:05 pm

robocam wrote:It's got a fixed rear triangle. One less place it can break. Pedal power loss in the suspension? You pedal? =)
Nice catch, I wasn't even thinking of that... so yeah, the forget about the suspension nonsense I spewed...

G.
I am all about high-speed, low-drag, mid-drives and gears...
A-1B trike, 6+kW, 65+mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFC8MRwvgUM
A-2A trike 3kW, 50mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNoqp0wl6Vo
eB-1C bike 3kW, 42mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_weSmz_h3Ig

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Re: Klein Mantra Cyclone build - Going for PAIN!

Post by RageNR » Jun 09, 2016 1:14 pm

robocam wrote:It's got a fixed rear triangle. One less place it can break. Pedal power loss in the suspension? You pedal? =)
The loss of power would be on frames with separated crank and rear susp. That was my theory at least. I will make a picture with an explanation later on to help visualize my thoughts.
Peddle? Why yes, yes I do :) .... *opens left side of his coat slowly* "Could I interest you in some of my wares?" :mrgreen:
gman1971 wrote:50 mph is just not possible at stock power levels under normal circumstances on a flat road. To have any chance of hitting 50 mph you will need either loads of kW, or at the very least some serious aero work, like aerobars, aerowheels, thin slicks, sitting superlow and on the aerobars, special helmet... etc, other people with a lot of money have tried and it just doesn't have the power to pull 50 mph on the flats.
Gman and I have been corresponding via email on my wild endeavor. We have discussed stats, specs, and ideals. Mostly I have just been asking a boat load of questions about his builds so I could get an idea of what I am looking at.
He keeps telling me I will never reach my desired speed. Through his experience and others with the same aspirations, no one has managed to break 50mph on an upright w/3000W alone.

Just so everyone is clear, I am not expecting to hit 50mph either. At least not without crazy amounts of effort or modding. It simply is a goal to work towards, whether achievable or not. Gotta have an unrealistic goal to work towards to keep your drive strong.
I do not think 44mph is too unrealistic. Gman tells me that it will be hard to achieve to reach 42. So 44 is the first goal. I am quickly becoming humble with age. If I do not reach the goal, I will admit defeat. But it wont be for a lack of trying.
And not intending to step on anyone's toes, but we should all push each other to go farther. Encouragement, milestones, and perseverance are how progress is made.

At this time I would like to thank Gman personally for his input and opinions. You have been patient and informative, and deserve my acknowledgement. Thank you for your help.
I would also like to thank everyone else for their input. So much to learn, so little time. I've done a lot of reading over the years. Sometimes it is easier to understand a matter when someone answers your question directly. We all were noobs at some point. Learn what you can and pass the knowledge on. DON'T FORGET TO BE HUMBLE! When you are wrong, you are wrong. (pointing a finger at myself here)
MOVE IT YOU BI-PEDALING OBSTRUCTIONS!!!!!!! RAAAAGGGGGEEEEEEEEE
My Klein Mantra mid-drive Cyclone build thread: https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 28&t=81052

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Re: Klein Mantra Cyclone build - Going for PAIN!

Post by gman1971 » Jun 09, 2016 1:59 pm

Hey, no worries... thanks and glad we can help.

Not wild, but perspective is always good. Again, not trying to shatter the dream, I am a dreamer myself, but before you go down the $$$$$ road I figured I give you a heads up of what awaits in the dark and treacherous road ahead.

G.
RageNR wrote: Gman and I have been corresponding via email on my wild endeavor. We have discussed stats, specs, and ideals. Mostly I have just been asking a boat load of questions about his builds so I could get an idea of what I am looking at.
He keeps telling me I will never reach my desired speed. Through his experience and others with the same aspirations, no one has managed to break 50mph on an upright w/3000W alone.

Just so everyone is clear, I am not expecting to hit 50mph either. At least not without crazy amounts of effort or modding. It simply is a goal to work towards, whether achievable or not. Gotta have an unrealistic goal to work towards to keep your drive strong.
I do not think 44mph is too unrealistic. Gman tells me that it will be hard to achieve to reach 42. So 44 is the first goal. I am quickly becoming humble with age. If I do not reach the goal, I will admit defeat. But it wont be for a lack of trying.
And not intending to step on anyone's toes, but we should all push each other to go farther. Encouragement, milestones, and perseverance are how progress is made.

At this time I would like to thank Gman personally for his input and opinions. You have been patient and informative, and deserve my acknowledgement. Thank you for your help.
I would also like to thank everyone else for their input. So much to learn, so little time. I've done a lot of reading over the years. Sometimes it is easier to understand a matter when someone answers your question directly. We all were noobs at some point. Learn what you can and pass the knowledge on. DON'T FORGET TO BE HUMBLE! When you are wrong, you are wrong. (pointing a finger at myself here)
I am all about high-speed, low-drag, mid-drives and gears...
A-1B trike, 6+kW, 65+mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFC8MRwvgUM
A-2A trike 3kW, 50mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNoqp0wl6Vo
eB-1C bike 3kW, 42mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_weSmz_h3Ig

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Re: Klein Mantra Cyclone build - Going for PAIN!

Post by RageNR » Jun 09, 2016 2:42 pm

Oh, I should add... I am trying to get used to the bike before throwing a hailstorm of spinningmagnets (recognition Bro), electrons, and specialnuts at this blue streak of a death sentence.
Took her out at 1:30am and rode till almost 4:30. It's nimble and quick. Feels much lighter than the ProFlex which already felt super light. I think my Cannondale is about the same as the Flex. But the Klein is on a whole nother level.
Think I covered about 18miles just dking around the town. Oh course, I had to stop for a Whataburger. Never make the mistake of passing one by. It will haunt you for the rest of your days..
But yeah, trying to get a better feel for the girl and build up my stamina again. Its been over 3yrs since I even rode a bike.

Starting now, I need to think of a name for the build.
I named the ProFlex the "D.H." since all you guys were pestering me about getting a DH frame. Name was derived in listed fashion: 1996 ProFlex Beast > 2016 (20yrs old/2 decades) > not a bike worthy of high speed or trails for that matter > Named the D.H. = Decade Hopper. And if end up keeping that bike, the name is going to stick. :P
So how about the Klein?______ Blue Turd? _____ Blazin Berries? _____ MantraRAY? _____ StupIndigo? ____ Liquid Lobotomy? ____ 1 Life Left? ..... help me out here guys!
MOVE IT YOU BI-PEDALING OBSTRUCTIONS!!!!!!! RAAAAGGGGGEEEEEEEEE
My Klein Mantra mid-drive Cyclone build thread: https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 28&t=81052

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Re: Klein Mantra Cyclone build - Going for PAIN!

Post by nutnspecial » Jun 09, 2016 8:44 pm

Oh my. If I call my bike anything it's 'please don't kill me' or some profane name when I survive my mistake. Other than that, I don't usually 'name' objects tho.

But some people do, so how bout 'kleinspeed' or 'death mantra' per brand specific- but if you're naming it, likely it will mean something only to you though. Like 'naughtspecial' or 'rageNR' ? :D

also I'm pretty dam sure I remember 42mph took less than 3kw to gain and sustain with 230lbs build and 2.3 knobbies :!:

rageklein__1.jpg
used jpeg-optimizer com for 640x480
rageklein__1.jpg (207.77 KiB) Viewed 3529 times
Very nice buy, you've seen what these are going for on ebay?

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Re: Klein Mantra Cyclone build - Going for PAIN!

Post by RageNR » Jun 09, 2016 9:20 pm

nutspecial wrote: if you're naming it, likely it will mean something only to you though. Like 'naughtspecial' or 'rageNR' ? :D
LoL, "you've got spunk kid". I figured a period correct phrase was in order for the period bike. :lol:
I honestly don't care for names either, but is fun having a funky label for your creation. People seem to attach to it more when it takes on its own personality. They wont remember any of the details about it, but they will remember the name.
Guess I could go on the offensive. Make fun of Specialized or Trek. SpecialEyes? _____________ this will require some research...
I've got others: Kil'en It ___ PuckerUP^ ___ ManTraP ___ BluBalls Compensator ___ D'URT (Dont Underestimate Reaction Time) ___ "Lady in Red" (cuz why not?)
nutspecial wrote:Very nice buy, you've seen what these are going for on ebay?
Yeah, I did look around for a bit before deciding to go for it. Weird thing is, the regular old typical style framed Kleins fetch way more money. For the most part, they have very little in the way of uniqueness beside a fancy paint job. But my, they are painted up fancy indeed.
The most unique Klein bikes, the Mantra, seem to be at the bottom of the value list. That really doesn't make sense. Usually the more unique the item, the rare-er and more valuable it becomes. Maybe in another 10yrs? Might be a good time to buy.

Oh and that guy on ebay that specializes in selling Kleins (he puts them up on a table with a large Klein banner hanging below when taking pictures), I found his number. Sent him a text over to get a gauge on what these things are actually going for vs listed ebay prices. Have exchanged a few texts so far. Waiting for a final value.
Prices I've seen on the bay range from $500-1200. Avg looks to be in the 600-800 area.

UPDATE: He just got back to me. He says he would sell it for $750. That is right in line with what I have seen so far. So not a bad deal at all.
MOVE IT YOU BI-PEDALING OBSTRUCTIONS!!!!!!! RAAAAGGGGGEEEEEEEEE
My Klein Mantra mid-drive Cyclone build thread: https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 28&t=81052

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Re: Klein Mantra Cyclone build - Going for PAIN!

Post by RageNR » Jun 11, 2016 9:05 pm

OK guys. I have to add some info that I have found.

There is a company in San Angelo, TX (electricrider.com) that is selling the Montague Paratrooper bikes with an e-kit. The one I am interested in the Phoenix Paratrooper Country Commuter 3KW.
Specs show:
Frame: Montague Paratrooper Folding Bicycle
Frame Size: 20 inch
Motor: 3000W Direct Drive Hub Motor (Phoenix Cruiser Motor) - No Maintenance!
Controller: 72V 40A
Battery: Lithium Manganese (LiMn) 72V 15AH
Top Speed: 47mph
Torque: High
Image
This bike is very much like the Mantra design, and has been around for quite a few years now.

Here is a video of one doing 52mph: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-UgY-pwGTtY
And that was from 2012.


So, this is a DD hub motor setup pushing 2880watts @ 72v 40a, reaching 47mph. One would imagine that actual wattage at 47mph is a bit over 3000w.
I know hub motors can be more efficient, but... WOW! :shock:
Are the DD hub motors that efficient vs a mid-drive? That would mean the mid-drive has losses of 10-30%, depending on driveline setup.
I'd appreciate some input on this because it is making me seriously reconsider a mid-drive.
MOVE IT YOU BI-PEDALING OBSTRUCTIONS!!!!!!! RAAAAGGGGGEEEEEEEEE
My Klein Mantra mid-drive Cyclone build thread: https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 28&t=81052

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Re: Klein Mantra Cyclone build - Going for PAIN!

Post by LewTwo » Jun 11, 2016 9:30 pm

I had problems the web site link in their... these links work.
http://www.electricrider.com/product-p/pxp.htm
http://www.electricrider.com/phoenix-pa ... s/1896.htm

Phoenix Paratrooper Country Commuter 3KW:
3000W High Performance Electric Bike for Long Distance and Speedy Commutes
Frame: Montague Paratrooper Folding Bicycle
Frame Size: 20 inch
Motor: 3000W Direct Drive Hub Motor (Phoenix Cruiser Motor) - No Maintenance!
Controller: 72V 40A
Battery: Lithium Manganese (LiMn) 72V 15AH
Top Speed: 47mph
Torque: High

Price: $3,259.00
Pcode: Country-Commuter-3KW
Image

edit:
You need to look here for more information on the drive system.
http://www.electricrider.com/phoenix-el ... s/1975.htm
The more I learn the more obvious the immensity of my ignorance becomes.
Weight Wennie E-Bike https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 3#p1173723
Shaft Drive Grocery Getter https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... =6&t=90718
...and thanks to Justin!

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Re: Klein Mantra Cyclone build - Going for PAIN!

Post by RageNR » Jun 11, 2016 10:38 pm

LewTwo wrote:You need to look here for more information on the drive system.
http://www.electricrider.com/phoenix-el ... s/1975.htm
Thanks LewTwo. I had a a look at the specs. They are claiming 45mph @ 2880w. Gman1971 says that his 2 wheel upright bike is eating 1670w @ 30mph vs his trike that uses 1050w.
The wattage to maintain a speed goes up exponentially with the increase of speed.
Every drive system will vary. I just had no idea that the 3000w Cyclone mid-drive would be that much less efficient than a DD hub motor.
MOVE IT YOU BI-PEDALING OBSTRUCTIONS!!!!!!! RAAAAGGGGGEEEEEEEEE
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Re: Klein Mantra Cyclone build - Going for PAIN!

Post by gman1971 » Jun 12, 2016 12:23 pm

RageNR wrote:
LewTwo wrote:You need to look here for more information on the drive system.
http://www.electricrider.com/phoenix-el ... s/1975.htm
Thanks LewTwo. I had a a look at the specs. They are claiming 45mph @ 2880w. Gman1971 says that his 2 wheel upright bike is eating 1670w @ 30mph vs his trike that uses 1050w.
The wattage to maintain a speed goes up exponentially with the increase of speed.
Every drive system will vary. I just had no idea that the 3000w Cyclone mid-drive would be that much less efficient than a DD hub motor.
I would be VERY wary of such claims that its taking 2880W to do 45 mph. You can watch the Cycle Analyst power output on any of my videos and you'll get a pretty good idea of how much power it takes to get to speed.

It isn't that inefficient, b/c mine is run at full throttle at very high RPM where the motor is very efficient and the controller is not eating the extra power; and chain drives are usually better than 95% efficient; which isn't too bad compared to all the heat the MOSFETs on those hub controllers have to eat to run partial throttle.

G.
I am all about high-speed, low-drag, mid-drives and gears...
A-1B trike, 6+kW, 65+mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFC8MRwvgUM
A-2A trike 3kW, 50mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNoqp0wl6Vo
eB-1C bike 3kW, 42mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_weSmz_h3Ig

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gman1971
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Re: Klein Mantra Cyclone build - Going for PAIN!

Post by gman1971 » Jun 12, 2016 2:03 pm

Just checked some of my logs/videos and I can see I am doing 42 mph with ~2900 watts, so if the bike is aerodynamic and has a small rider on it, then it could definitively do it... but so will the Cyclone 3000W. In fact, mine tops out at basically 2 mph less than that and the video was done with spiked low pressure rims and me wearing three layers of clothes (winter) with snow on the road, so yes, I think the Cyclone will outperform any hub at equivalent power b/c it allows you to use gearing. Hubs are a one trick pony kind of deal... but obviously they have a lot of benefits b/c they are ultra-reliable... So, if you install aerobars and ride in some aero position you could potentially hit 50 mph with 3 kW and a C3000W

Use this calculator to get a rough estimate on how fast something will go...
http://www.kreuzotter.de/english/espeed.htm

G.
I am all about high-speed, low-drag, mid-drives and gears...
A-1B trike, 6+kW, 65+mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFC8MRwvgUM
A-2A trike 3kW, 50mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNoqp0wl6Vo
eB-1C bike 3kW, 42mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_weSmz_h3Ig

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Re: Klein Mantra Cyclone build - Going for PAIN!

Post by LewTwo » Jun 12, 2016 2:20 pm

Just for a bit of perspective ...

The old Honda 50 Cub was 49cc, 4.5 Horsepower (3.5 KW), 150 pounds with a three speed transmission. I see several sites list its top speed as 35 MPH but on a good day one could get it up to 50 MPH (according to its speedometer). Another piece of trivia: The Honda Cub is credited to have sold more than any other model of ICE vehicles (2,3 and 4 wheels inclusive).

edit:
Its biggest advantage is it could go forever on thirty-five cents worth of gas.
The more I learn the more obvious the immensity of my ignorance becomes.
Weight Wennie E-Bike https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 3#p1173723
Shaft Drive Grocery Getter https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... =6&t=90718
...and thanks to Justin!

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Re: Klein Mantra Cyclone build - Going for PAIN!

Post by RageNR » Jun 12, 2016 3:19 pm

LewTwo wrote:The old Honda 50 Cub was 49cc, 4.5 Horsepower (3.5 KW), 150 pounds with a three speed transmission. I see several sites list its top speed as 35 MPH but on a good day one could get it up to 50 MPH (according to its speedometer). Another piece of trivia: The Honda Cub is credited to have sold more than any other model of ICE vehicles (2,3 and 4 wheels inclusive).
Funny you mention this. I happen to stumble on something similar last night while surfin' around. This thing is super cool....
Image
Here is a few videos of it in action
SEMA 2015: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VjxxPYtKGL4
Product Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LbaDLTf ... e=youtu.be
Basic model in action: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0pf82tr ... e=youtu.be

Price is $3500 for the Apocalypse Edition.

That is a cool setup. Small, compact, lightweight(considering), robust, and capable.
My thoughts on it would be to incorporate an additional electric mid-drive motor. Would add roughly 10-14lbs, but would give you speed while still being relatively quite.
MOVE IT YOU BI-PEDALING OBSTRUCTIONS!!!!!!! RAAAAGGGGGEEEEEEEEE
My Klein Mantra mid-drive Cyclone build thread: https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 28&t=81052

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Re: Klein Mantra Cyclone build - Going for PAIN!

Post by RageNR » Jun 13, 2016 8:02 pm

While I am still sorting out the details of my parts, here are a few more pics of the new girl. (:
IMG_20160611_144140386.jpg
IMG_20160611_144150040.jpg
IMG_20160611_144155575.jpg
IMG_20160611_144211871.jpg
IMG_20160611_144220003.jpg
IMG_20160611_144235150.jpg
IMG_20160611_144253565.jpg




NOW, for the coolest "hidden" feature of the Mantra...
Correct me if I am wrong, but I have not seen ANYONE do this yet. I honestly cannot believe that this bike has been around almost 2 decades, but NO one has discovered it's most beneficial design.
IMG_20160611_144140386.jpg
IMG_20160613_171425655_HDR.jpg
IMG_20160613_171530093.jpg
This is SUPER COOL!!! How has no one discovered this? I will even be able to fold it up when the Cyclone is attached. That is a huge WIN!
I am sorry, but I am super stoked about this frame choice so far. Yeah, it has its shortfalls. But so far, all the benefits are well out-weighing the down sides.
What I need to find is a shorter quick release for the upper shock mount, like is used for the wheels. Then you would only need to take the one bolt loose to fold it.
That in combination with disk brakes (along with removing the squeeze brakes), will allow for quick deployment. I am beyond happy right now. :mrgreen: x1000
Attachments
IMG_20160613_171409877.jpg
MOVE IT YOU BI-PEDALING OBSTRUCTIONS!!!!!!! RAAAAGGGGGEEEEEEEEE
My Klein Mantra mid-drive Cyclone build thread: https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 28&t=81052

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Re: Klein Mantra Cyclone build - Going for PAIN!

Post by nutnspecial » Jun 14, 2016 6:25 am

Awesome deal and nice design improvements!!!

The folding can certainly come in handy, but depending on motor, controller, and wiring it might be more challenging. It surely does save space over just removing the wheels though! Nice find!

Lookin forward to your kit choices and implementation- you def have the bike part covered imo 8)

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RageNR
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Re: Klein Mantra Cyclone build - Going for PAIN!

Post by RageNR » Jun 14, 2016 8:51 am

nutspecial wrote:The folding can certainly come in handy, but depending on motor, controller, and wiring it might be more challenging. It surely does save space over just removing the wheels though! Nice find!
I am going to try and mount the controller out of the way somewhere. Maybe on the side.
The back wheel is still attached. That makes is super nice so you don't have to fuss with the chain and derailleur. Hard to tell in that last pic. Wasn't sure it that was clear or not.
Anywho, I am gearing up to make the order. Gonna talk to Paco @ Cyclone before deciding to make the order overseas. If not, I'll be ordering from Luna.
Thanks for the encouragement, Really does mean a lot to me right now. I swear, if my skin wasn't holding me back, I'd be grinning from ear to ear. :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
MOVE IT YOU BI-PEDALING OBSTRUCTIONS!!!!!!! RAAAAGGGGGEEEEEEEEE
My Klein Mantra mid-drive Cyclone build thread: https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 28&t=81052

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Re: Klein Mantra Cyclone build - Going for PAIN!

Post by RageNR » Jun 27, 2016 5:34 pm

Alright, so I got my kit in last Thursday. I was so excited, I just threw it on without making an update here. Sorry, my apologies. Can you blame me?
Don't laugh. I just rigged it up as quickly as possible so I could test it out. Needed to make sure the Cyclone kit was good before letting too much time pass by.

I ran into a few issues with mounting the kit on the Klein. Mostly because of how the Mantra is designed. Not really the Cyclones fault.
Look at these pictures here to see what I am talking about. Descriptions will be below each image.
0627160135.jpg
0627160135.jpg (193.76 KiB) Viewed 3134 times
Here is the first problem. The Shimano Deore LX levers are making throttle placement tricky. Notice how far I had to move it in to get it to clear the Cyclone throttle.
0627160137b.jpg
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Another shot. Shift lever just barely clears. Shifting while riding is a wee bit difficult, but doable. Think I am going to have to buy another type of throttle.
0627160142.jpg
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Second issue was the front derailleur. Because of the way the Mantra is built, the Shimano XTR does not clamp to what would normally be a round tube coming up from the bottom bracket (seat tube).
It has a mounting plate that attaches to the face of the BB on the chainwheel side. I actually mounted the Cyclone bracket ON TOP of the Shimano adapter. It would not fit the other way around. I might have to custom fab up a mounting bracket to make this work later on.
For now, I just pulled the chain out of the derailleur and put it on the 48t sprocket. Still plenty low enough to pedal on the front 48t and rear 32t.
0627160138.jpg
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Shot from the backside. The adjustments are either too high or too low. If it's high enough to fit over the 48t, then the lower lip of the derailleur cage is too high for the 24t.
0627160143.jpg
0627160143.jpg (103.34 KiB) Viewed 3134 times
Chain path view
Maybe there is another solution that I am unaware of? Please comment if you have any ideas.

On to the good news...
0627160140a.jpg
0627160140a.jpg (153.93 KiB) Viewed 3134 times
Motor mounts exceptionally well. Turns out it worked better than I expected. This is not final, just wanted to get it up and running to test. Looks like it touches the frame. It actually does not.
0627160156.jpg
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Screw for the water bottle cage touches the aluminum spacer.
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There is about a 2mm gap between the motor and frame. I did not expect this at all. :D
0627160140.jpg
Bike with the kit installed. Looks nice to me. I'll clean it up later and repaint the bike eventually. Having too much fun right now to care :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
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0627160134-1.jpg (198.62 KiB) Viewed 3134 times
The other side. Yep, lots of wires going on. Clean it up later.
There are my 3 Walmart EverStart car jumper packs on the bottom right. They each have a 3s 11.1v 4,000mAh Lipo inside. EverStart claims a 400A capability. B.S. I'd say 200A max on Peak.
They cost me $5 each. Not really too worried about them. Had to buy 2 extra EC5 connectors to make the cable. Those 2 cost me $9 from the local hobbyshop. Nearly as much as the packs... :roll:



Here is my experience thus far...
The added weight is noticeable, being that I mounted the motor higher up than what the kit normally installs. It is not bad at all. The weight is right under you and does not affect maneuverability as you might expect. I am pleased with how it handles.
I think the bike + kit is just under 40lbs. Not bad, not bad at all. The batts are roughly 4lbs and I am near 150-155. So total riding weight as of now is just under 200lbs.
Pedal force to move has mostly been unaffected. I rode over 100miles on the bike the week prior to installing the kit. Wanted to have a good feel for the bike before and after. There has been little impact on ride-ability IMHO. Less than I expected.

Test ride results are mostly positive. I will need to make some adjustments. Mostly to the shocks. Rear shock will need some more psi to counter the added weight.
Speed is better than I anticipated.
Screenshot_2016-06-27-16-38-48.png
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On the 24t front and 11t rear, top speed is 22.6mph. This was with mode 3 on the controller
Screenshot_2016-06-27-16-39-19.png
Screenshot_2016-06-27-16-39-19.png (146.19 KiB) Viewed 3134 times
This is on the 48t front and 13t rear. Top speed on Mode 3 is 34.9mph

Keep in mind, this is with 3 tiny 4,000mAh packs. Total charged voltage is 37.8v. Even once the pack is down to 34.5v range, I am still hitting 32+mph.
Have not tested for distance on the packs alone. Been riding 10+ mile rides just goofing around with the Cyclone. Mostly pedaling.
Yesterday I did almost 30 miles. Still had roughly 45% charge when I got home.
Can't wait to get the large pack built! :mrgreen: 8)
MOVE IT YOU BI-PEDALING OBSTRUCTIONS!!!!!!! RAAAAGGGGGEEEEEEEEE
My Klein Mantra mid-drive Cyclone build thread: https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 28&t=81052

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Re: Klein Mantra Cyclone build - Going for PAIN!

Post by LewTwo » Jun 27, 2016 6:25 pm

With your location and the mid drive motor you should not need much in the way of low gears. If you switch to an IGH rear hub your front derailleur and shifter problems go away .... not to mention a much cleaner look bike. I think the bigger problem may be where to mount the battery?
The more I learn the more obvious the immensity of my ignorance becomes.
Weight Wennie E-Bike https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 3#p1173723
Shaft Drive Grocery Getter https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... =6&t=90718
...and thanks to Justin!

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