The first and BEST Qulbix Raptor mid-drive build!

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The first and BEST Qulbix Raptor mid-drive build!

Post by recumpence » Aug 24 2016 7:33pm

Hey Guys,

No, I am not being arrogent. There is a reason for my thread title that will become apparent soon. This should be a very fun thread, not just for the build itself, but for the banter back and forth. This thread should add some spice to the forum. :mrgreen:

Now, here is a description of my build;

Frame--- Qulbix Raptor 140 with 150mm dropout spacing
Drive--- Multiple Astro Flight 6 turn Delta 3220s with belt to jackshaft and chain to wheel.
Controllers--- Edge 160s
Cells--- Lipo (12s 40 to 60ah depending on how many I can fit in the frame)

Forks, wheels, brakes, tires? Not sure on that. I will be obtaining parts as I can afford them.

This bike will be running either two or three 3220 motors. I have eight of these motors in the shop just sitting around (yes, you heard me correctly, I have eight 3220s sitting here, and 7 Edge 160 controllers that are unassigned to any particular project). Many of these are used and some are new.

I have all the parts in stock to build a twin motor drive and a triple motor drive. There is no real cost for me for that part of this project.

I am sure most of you will say "Just go for three motors". However, there is much to be considered. A triple motor drive is heavier, less efficient, and a handful to ride. But, we are talking ENORMOUSE power! Three 3220s would be capable of 40,000 watts of peak short burst power with a continuous output of 20,000 watts. This would be great for deep snow riding with 50mph final gearing. But, the range of the bike would be less than desireable. A twin motor drive is lighter, more efficient, smaller to package, and still has tons of power expecially if geared for 40mph top speed. Maybe I will build both and try both. We shall see.

This build began 18 months ago when we (my partner and I) ordered this frame for prototype testing for a potential production bike. After sand blasting the frame for modifications, that project was scrapped and the frame sat idle gathering some surface rust. Then I built my Motoped with two 3220s. That bike was nearly perfect for high power riding. But, it looked too much like a motorcycle. That made is less than stealth. I have since wanted a bike with that same power while looking at least a little bit like a bicycle. The Motoped weighed 147 pounds. I hope to have this bike weigh in at 100 pounds. That weight savings with twin motors will make this bike awesome to ride without being so sluggish in handling.

This frame became available for my use when my partner and I separated. He got the checking account and I got the entire business, web site, and all inventory. Win-win! :D

Now to the technical info;

The drive will be mounted under the frame box with a removeable cover to protect it when running in snow (VERY fun riding a powerful E-bike in snow!). The box needs to be modified to accomodate the correct chain line. This will become more obvious as the build continues. The 150mm dropout width was ordered because, as a hub motor designed frame, that was the only spacing available that I could find an off the shelf hub for. So, I bought a Kore 150mm wide rear hub designed for a 12mm axle. The dropout slots are 10mm wide. So, I will use a 10mm axle with a 12mm to 10mm reducer inside the hub. This solves the hub motor to mid-drive dropout difference issue relatively easily. The rear rim will be a very wide (not a fat bike rim) 24inch downhill rim and I will run a 2.5 to 3 inch wide rear tire. This is what the Motoped came with and it was light, but had a motorcycle stiffness and traction I like on a build like this.

I hope to have this bike up and running before the snow flies. I figure I have about 20 hours of frame work and custom machining to do, then about 8 hours if wiring and building to do. That should not take too long. Assuming I can raise enough money to buy the remaining parts I need, I should have it running in two months.

I am leaning toward yellow powder-coat on the main frame with black carbon side panels and all other parts in black. Maybe I will call it the Wasp? Hmm, have to think about that name. Anyway, I like the idea of mostly black with a strong presence of yellow. It will have a little bit of Yamaha flavor to it.

Let the fun begin! :mrgreen:

Matt
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Re: The first and BEST Qulbix Raptor mid-drive build!

Post by LightningRods » Aug 24 2016 9:57pm

Somehow, despite the fact that I hate competitions, over the course of my life I've constantly found myself in competitive situations. Part of how I learned to deal with it is not to worry so much about winning. I've been very fortunate in that I've frequently found myself competing with the best. I've learned so much from my peers. That's the case here. I can't think of a better game to be in with a better competitor.

It beats duking it out to see who can sell more of the exact same cheap crap for a lower price, eh Matt? :D
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Re: The first and BEST Qulbix Raptor mid-drive build!

Post by LightningRods » Aug 24 2016 10:00pm

P.S. I love the way that you have the date on your camera set wrong by about 13 years to show that you were "first".
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Re: The first and BEST Qulbix Raptor mid-drive build!

Post by recumpence » Aug 25 2016 6:27am

LightningRods wrote:P.S. I love the way that you have the date on your camera set wrong by about 13 years to show that you were "first".
Ha, ha, Thud noticed the same thing about my camera.

This old camera resets itself every time I take the battery out to charge it. It is a pain to reset. So, there you go. :mrgreen:

So, on this frame, left side drive requires running the chain over the swingarm on the power side. That means I need to modify the box to make room for a power side idler. This will bring the chain up and over for the power side then under the sidearm for the return side.

This is not a competition. If is just a fun way to generate some mutual thinking, mechanical design, and problem solving. :D

Matt
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Re: The first and BEST Qulbix Raptor mid-drive build!

Post by Ecyclist » Aug 25 2016 9:47am

These Astro motors are mini monsters. From what I read, 3220 can get you to 50 mph. With 2 of these you will probably get 70.
With 3 and polycarbonate/carbon-fiber shell you might start to think about a speed record. Either way, it looks like crazy fun project.
Don't expect from life to be easy and then it will be.
My builds:
Avian with hypocycloidal drive https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 2#p1318056
2016 GNG extreme drive https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 28&t=82252

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Re: The first and BEST Qulbix Raptor mid-drive build!

Post by recumpence » Aug 25 2016 5:03pm

This bike will be geared for 40mph top speed with two motors. Top speed is cool for bragging rights, but not very practical (at least for my use). :mrgreen:

I like wheelie pulling acceleration!

Matt
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Re: The first and BEST Qulbix Raptor mid-drive build!

Post by recumpence » Aug 26 2016 11:27am

I received a couple fancy parts in the mail yesterday. And I believe I know the direction I want to go regarding chainline and other details. I should begin metal cutting grinding and Welding very soon!
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Re: The first and BEST Qulbix Raptor mid-drive build!

Post by efMX Trials Electric Freeride » Aug 26 2016 12:52pm

First Raptor mid drive 2014 8)
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reference: https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 75#p907879
some ride & sk8 videos:
metacafe.com/channels/NATAS666DAMIEN
http://www.youtube.com/natas666damien
i have nothing for sale.. :)

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Re: The first and BEST Qulbix Raptor mid-drive build!

Post by recumpence » Aug 26 2016 1:34pm

Yep, I saw your post on Mike's thread
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Re: The first and BEST Qulbix Raptor mid-drive build!

Post by LightningRods » Aug 26 2016 2:07pm

Darn! Now we have to be satisfied with just being the best! 8)
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Re: The first and BEST Qulbix Raptor mid-drive build!

Post by recumpence » Aug 26 2016 2:24pm

I already am the best. So I know the feeling of that satisfaction! :mrgreen:

I rank high in humility!
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Re: The first and BEST Qulbix Raptor mid-drive build!

Post by recumpence » Aug 27 2016 3:29pm

Progress :D

Here are a series of pictures.

Today I layed out the left side chainline. You can see the large 23 tooth Terra-Cycle idler. This is a recumbent specific item. I went with a large diameter because it is for the power (tension) side of the chain running at high power and high chain speed. This requires a large diameter to minimize wear and noise.

I spent two hours accomplishing the following;

#1 Figure out the chain line.
#2 Fabricate shock spacers and mount shock (swing arm bearings are not yet installed, awaiting powder-coating).
#3 Mark battery box for idler and chain clearance.
#4 Cut the battery box.
#5 Fabricate new box inserts.
#6 Weld up new inserts.

The shock was an item I had laying around. I prefer 6 inch suspension travel rather than the standard 8 inches. So, this slightly shorter shock is perfect. I had to fabricate spacers. But, that was no big deal. I will also relocate the upper shock mount to accomodate the shorter shock.

The frame insert plates are .100 inch thick instead of the stock .062 inch thickness. This is to accomodate the stress of the shaft for the idler wheels.

The reason for the idler wheels is to bring the tension side of the chain up and over the swingarm. This is the best option for a very high power mid motor system. Keeping the tension side of the chain under the swing arm causes problems in a high power system. This new chainline is a pain to setup (as you can see). But, the work is worth it for the performance and suspension interaction benefits.

Next I have to finish the flanged edge of the box for mounting the side cover, then mount the idler shafts, and make a carbon fiber outer support plate that will tie in the idler wheel shafts at the outside to add strength to them and act as a chain guard. I hope to have that work accomplished tomorrow. After that I will mount the drive unit. Then I will fabricate a drive unit cover/belly-pan to completely protect the drive from snow. It looks like I may only have about 12 hours of fabrication left before the frame can go out to powder-coating.

I need to sell a few motors/driveunits/controllers I have here to fund the remaining parts needed for this project.

I am excited for the culmination of this build. It is awesome that Mike and I are working on our bikes together. :D

Matt
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Re: The first and BEST Qulbix Raptor mid-drive build!

Post by LightningRods » Aug 27 2016 3:44pm

Have you run this much power through a TerraCycle idler before?

Okay, I'll bite. What's the problem with having the tension run of the chain under the swingarm? Squat under power?
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Re: The first and BEST Qulbix Raptor mid-drive build!

Post by recumpence » Aug 27 2016 3:53pm

LightningRods wrote:Have you run this much power through a TerraCycle idler before?

Okay, I'll bite. What's the problem with having the tension run of the chain under the swingarm? Squat under power?
I have not run that much power through this specific idler. But, the only concern I have is the sprocket itself, not the bearings or the shaft. If the sprocket wears quickly, I will replace it with a solid Delrin idler.

The issue with high power tension chain under the swing arm pivot is suspension jacking. It also drastically increases chain growth under squat with high travel swingarms. My Mountaincycle frame has under swingarm chain routing. But that bike has half the power and half the suspension travel of this bike.

Matt
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Re: The first and BEST Qulbix Raptor mid-drive build!

Post by LightningRods » Aug 27 2016 5:47pm

Despite any disadvantages I want to try it this way just for the sake of simplicity. I am dealing with far less power than you are so maybe the effects will be subtle. I can add a jackshaft more proximate to the swingarm pivot after the fact if the chain geometry becomes a problem.

I suppose another argument in favor of swingarm mounting the motor is that it eliminates all of the chain dynamics. There is no chain growth because the distance between the sprockets remains constant. I also don't see how squat or jacking could be an issue. This is the design process. Pros and cons and choosing which compromises you want to live with.

You're a maniac carving away at that Q140 battery box. You should have gotten a Q76 to play with. :P
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Re: The first and BEST Qulbix Raptor mid-drive build!

Post by spinningmagnets » Aug 27 2016 6:01pm

As far as fitting a motor on the swingarm, a 19-inch moped rim with a 2.8-inch tire would come out to a 25 - inch tire OD. I don't know if that includes knobbies, because I'm not a big offroader...

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Re: The first and BEST Qulbix Raptor mid-drive build!

Post by LightningRods » Aug 27 2016 6:10pm

You are correct sir! I marked this ruler at a radius of 12.5" for a diameter of 25". Plenty of room back there.

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Re: The first and BEST Qulbix Raptor mid-drive build!

Post by recumpence » Aug 27 2016 6:34pm

I added the box flange. Tomorrow I will drill and install the riv-nuts (threaded inserts) for the side panel.

Oh, I am remaking both side panels in carbon fiber! I have a few large panels here in the shop to play with. This thing will have the side panels in carbon, left side chain guard/idler stiftening plate in carbon, and the drive unit cover/skid-plate in carbon. All the carbon on a yellow powder-coated frame should look amazing...... :mrgreen:

On the subject of chain routing;

The key to running both sides of the chain under the swing arm pivot is to tuck it up as close to the pivot as possible (refer to my Mountaincycle build to see what I mean). If the chain is far below the swing arm pivot, chain growth will be exadurated as the suspension travels. It will work just fine, Dude. Just make sure you have a spring loaded chain tensioner with lots of travel. That being said, mounting the motor to the swing arm is really a great solution in your case because mounting it so close to the swing arm pivot minimizes the unsprung mass. That would be the easiest way from a chain routing perspective. However, frame mounting would be easier to mount the motor than mounting it to the swingarm unless you plan on doing some welding.

Matt
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Re: The first and BEST Qulbix Raptor mid-drive build!

Post by Daim11 » Aug 28 2016 3:23pm

Subscribed, this is going to be fantastic! You always build the coolest stuff!

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Re: The first and BEST Qulbix Raptor mid-drive build!

Post by recumpence » Aug 29 2016 6:41pm

I have decided to go with 24 inch wheels on this bike. What a PAIN to find decent rims. My rear hub is 36 hole. Yet, I will be using a 32 hole hub on the front. So, I had to find a relatively wide (1.75 inch) rear rim in 36 hole and a 32mm wide front rim in 32 hole----NOT an easy task! Ideally I would have liked a 2.5 inch wide rear rim. But, they are not in stock anywhere except in teh UK for $169 plus shipping. That is too much. Then I had to do the calculating for spoke length and get custom [black] spokes ordered.......

Anyway, 24 inch rims with a wide rear tire (similar to the Motoped rear tire) would be perfect. I do not like long wheelbase bikes with large wheels. The bike just gets too big. A slightly longer wheelbase with 24 inch wheels seems to have better proportions in my eyes.

I am excited to build these wheels. :mrgreen:

Oh, I have sold a number of items. So, I will be ordering other bits soon. I want black USD8 forks. Those are tough to find in black.

Matt
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Re: The first and BEST Qulbix Raptor mid-drive build!

Post by recumpence » Aug 30 2016 6:46am

OK, so far I have sold my Phasor frame (just waiting for the deposit to come through) and a few used motors I have here at the shop. So, I can afford most of what I need to finish this build.

I have ordered the following parts so far;

--USD-8 fork in BLACK. This is a tough item to find! I may shorten the travel to 6 or 7 inches. We shall see how the bike looks [the stance] and how it rides.
--Both rims in 24 inch (again, tough sizes and spoke counts to find).
--Spokes in black.
--Front hub.
--Various connectors and small bits.

I have, also, reserved six Turnigy Multistar 6S-20ah packs. These are extremely high capacity in a very small package. The only issue is they are 10C continuous (20C for 30 seconds). However, I am setting this pack up at 60AH. That will give me 600 amps at 10C. That is more than enough.... The issue is, these packs are on back-order with no ETA. I may move to using the 16AH packs [and order more of them] instead. The problem is, they cost more, weigh a touch more, and will take up more space in my frame. But, that would up my capacity to 64AH and the 16AH packs are in stock.

We shall see as I approach that time of the build.

I have sproken to many people by phone, email, and PM about this bike. It seems many people are watching this build, but not commenting. Hmm......

Matt
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Re: The first and BEST Qulbix Raptor mid-drive build!

Post by ElectricGod » Aug 30 2016 1:04pm

This is going to be an interesting build. I can't wait to see how you mount the two 3220 motors. Since there are no hall sensors, I would think having the two motors half a bump off from each other would really help with stalling and cogging. My thought is one motor is in the gated position. IE: The armature is in the at rest position. The other motor is halfway through the gated position. No matter what happens, there will always be a motor that a controller can detect its BEMF pulses for even from a near dead stop. That controller will kick start the process so that the other motor a tiny bit of rotation later will create a BEMF pulse and its controller can detect its rotational direction. It's kind of like having a 3220 with 2X the teeth and poles. I don't know...it's just a theory and I've never built a dual motor set up before. I'm guessing that you will have both motors on the same chain. With this much motor power at your disposal, you wont typically come close to over loading that 28800 watts you will have in LIPO packs. Based on what you said (60Ah), you will be running those 6 packs in a 12S3P arrangement or 48 volts. Do you know how many winds the 3220's have and what the Kv is for them? Looking at the Astroflight site, you can order them wound a number of different turns with different Kvs. What type chain and sprockets will you run on the motors? I was thinking how cool it would be to adapt typical 219 driver sprockets to this motor. It would require a 1/2" t0 3/4" adapter to fit a typical KART driver sprocket on this motor shaft. I'm thinking a keyway on the motor shafts would be really helpful too! I wonder how well that flat on the motor shaft will hold up to this much wattage?

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Re: The first and BEST Qulbix Raptor mid-drive build!

Post by recumpence » Aug 30 2016 7:59pm

Twin motors will start a bike from a dead stop without any problem what-so-ever.

I have a few different motors I can use. I have 6 turn motors and 3 turn motors.

I will not be using a chain between the motors. I will be using a toothed belt. If you look at my Motoped build, this will have the same style drive unit. The motors have two flats on each shaft with two set screws per flat. 4 set screws is more than enough. No problem at all.

Matt
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Re: The first and BEST Qulbix Raptor mid-drive build!

Post by recumpence » Aug 31 2016 1:48pm

I have everything I need ordered except battery packs. Those should be ordered within a week or so.

I have a couple jobs to finish for clients before I can get much more accomplished on this build. But, I hope to have it running within 6 weeks.

Matt
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Re: The first and BEST Qulbix Raptor mid-drive build!

Post by izeman » Aug 31 2016 2:48pm

Define BEST ;)


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