The BEST and FIRST Qulbix Raptor mid-drive build!

Discussions related to motors other than hub motors.
This includes R/C motors, botttom bracket, roller and geared drives.
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The BEST and FIRST Qulbix Raptor mid-drive build!

Post by LightningRods » Aug 24, 2016 9:03 pm

You may have noticed that Recumpence just started a thread with a title very similar to mine. He's more concerned with being first than being best, but otherwise it's the same idea. :D I've been talking about starting a Qulbix build on the Lightning Rods Mid Drive thread for some time. Matt was also about ready to start his Qulbix build and so he suggested that we start our builds at the same time.

The Qulbix is the most popular off road ebike frame. It's rugged, reasonably light weight, has a nice big battery box built in, and the company is responsive and pleasant to deal with. They're located in Eastern Europe and so their pricing is very good. My only beef with them up to this point is that they have all been hub motor bikes. About 19 months ago a customer contacted me and asked if I'd build a mid drive for their Q140R. I said yes, they shipped the bike to me, and then they got into financial trouble. The bike sat and eventually was sold to another owner. Early this year Mammalian shipped his brandy new Q76R to me and I was back in the Qulbix business.

This is going to be an interesting build! I'm actually building two different Qulbix drives at the same time. One is going to be an evolution of my existing mid drive. It will use my Big Block motor and run through two stages of motor reduction, both being #219 racing kart chain. I'm making custom laser cut stainless steel chainring sprockets. This drive will have 1/2 the reduction of my normal mid drive, assuming that users will be running in the 3000-5000 watt range. The increased rpm at the chainwheel will go to a custom 7 speed rear gear cluster, again laser cut stainless steel. My plan is to use much higher tooth count rear sprockets to reduce driveline stress and to eliminate tooth skipping in the high speed gears.

The other Qulbix drive will also be a Big Block, but this one will be single stage reduction to the left side. I've come up with an idea for a way to mount a driven sprocket on the left side of the wheel without disturbing the location of the disc brake rotor and caliper. I'm using the 165mm dropout width to make room for a big fat knobby tire on the back. I'm having a custom billet hub made from 6160 for this application. The right side will have a normal bicycle gear cluster. It won't have to be anything special because it won't see anything but human power. The idea on this single speed drive is that it will be high voltage for a wide power band with as much power as the big motor will make.

Doing my builds the same time that Matt is will no doubt make for some interesting comparisons. I'm building a hot Mustang GT to Matt's Ferrari. Or maybe I'm building a Ford GT40 to his Ferrari. You just never know. :D

Game on!
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Re: The BEST and FIRST Qulbix Raptor mid-drive build!

Post by recumpence » Aug 24, 2016 9:23 pm

No fair, you are building TWO!?

Oh, Man.......

Ok, I gotta get down to business and really put some tech into my ONE bike in order to compete with your two. :wink:

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Re: The BEST and FIRST Qulbix Raptor mid-drive build!

Post by LightningRods » Aug 24, 2016 9:47 pm

You may have more motors in your one build than I have in both of mine.
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Re: The BEST and FIRST Qulbix Raptor mid-drive build!

Post by Mammalian04 » Aug 24, 2016 10:50 pm

:P

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Re: The BEST and FIRST Qulbix Raptor mid-drive build!

Post by gensem » Aug 25, 2016 1:22 pm

Q76R with left side sprocket, thats something I wanna see.
Justin we really appreciate what you did!

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Re: The BEST and FIRST Qulbix Raptor mid-drive build!

Post by recumpence » Aug 25, 2016 5:02 pm

gensem wrote:Q76R with left side sprocket, thats something I wanna see.
Me too!

Mike, do you have a picture of the frame and drive system you are building?

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Re: The BEST and FIRST Qulbix Raptor mid-drive build!

Post by LightningRods » Aug 25, 2016 5:58 pm

This is the Q76R that I have in the shop. It's actually in my living room at the moment. :D I need to be able to stand and stare without having to go downstairs. At least it doesn't leak oil like my motorcycles used to.

Image

This is my K.I.S.S. version that will (hopefully) have direct drive on the left side. Trying to get a chain run to the rear wheel of this bike is a series of threading needles. I plan to go over and under the bottom bracket and, again with luck, only have a tensioner idler on the return run of the chain. The motor looks like it's hanging low but it's no lower than the chainring. I plan to have a skid plate that protects both the motor and chainring.

I'm going to try designing a single .500" alloy mounting plate that will attach the motor to the frame on the drive side. Most of the stress is on that side so a mono-bracket should work fine.

The trick on this version is going to be mounting the 219 driven sprocket to the rear wheel. I'm going to try something that as far as I know has not been tried before. I've looked at a lot of antique motorcycles with a big left hand final drive. If my fancy idea fails I can always fall back on one of those. I'm going to try to avoid the standard "top hat" disc brake flange mount for the simple reason that it's already been done. I'd also like to be able to leave the brake rotor and caliper in their standard positions.
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Re: The BEST and FIRST Qulbix Raptor mid-drive build!

Post by recumpence » Aug 25, 2016 6:37 pm

Hey Mike,

What hub is that?

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Re: The BEST and FIRST Qulbix Raptor mid-drive build!

Post by nutnspecial » Aug 25, 2016 6:56 pm

I gotta say these threads seem almost staged it's just too funny :lol: Hey to finish it off we'll hafta get you guys to duel?

Anyway, LR you got it goin on with a "custom 7 speed rear gear cluster" -all we really need to do for ridiculous performance of many current middrives is beef up the bike drivetrain. . . .

Also, I like your single parallel approach. I'm happy with mine, and so are others! Buuut, If variable gearing could be made adequate, that would easily beat a single reduction parallel drive. . . .

Anyway, for the build pictured, have you not considered mounting that bigblock under the swingarm? That's my plans on a raptor look-alike with a bht of similar, and to slightly extend D/O to make tire room. I however plan to stay with right side parallel until I see another freewheeling version I like better :wink:

Nice job fellas, keep up the fun competitive comradery :D

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Re: The BEST and FIRST Qulbix Raptor mid-drive build!

Post by LightningRods » Aug 25, 2016 7:11 pm

recumpence wrote:Hey Mike,

What hub is that?

Matt
It's an Oset. They're really cool hubs. Nicely made, cheap. Unfortunately they're oddball widths and Oset told me up front that they wouldn't want to supply me with a bunch of them. The one in the photo is too narrow for the dropout. I have it clamped in place.

Here is the Oset product page for the hub. http://osetbikes.com/us/parts/hubs/
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Re: The BEST and FIRST Qulbix Raptor mid-drive build!

Post by recumpence » Aug 25, 2016 7:26 pm

I thought so. We talked about that last week. I have one of those hubs on my one wheeled Segway thing.

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Re: The BEST and FIRST Qulbix Raptor mid-drive build!

Post by recumpence » Aug 25, 2016 7:29 pm

nutspecial wrote:I gotta say these threads seem almost staged it's just too funny :lol:

Nice job fellas, keep up the fun competitive comradery :D
What? Us? Stage something?

SERIOULY!!

It's not like we are trying to get people to check in with our builds just to see how we are each doing and comparing each build in an effort to gain as many followers as possible.......

Wow, I am shocked that you would even entertain such a notion. :mrgreen:

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Re: The BEST and FIRST Qulbix Raptor mid-drive build!

Post by pkirkll » Aug 25, 2016 9:12 pm

HAhahaha... right o-----

Pour it on guys. lets see what you can come up with!!!!



I just got my LunaTic from Lightning Rod last weekend and I must say shes a beaut!!!! :D

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Re: The BEST and FIRST Qulbix Raptor mid-drive build!

Post by LightningRods » Aug 25, 2016 9:15 pm

Our builds aren't staged. We just happened to be aiming for the same target at the same time. Matt caught wind that I was starting the same build that he was and so suggested that we ham it up a bit. I was unsure about this at first but now I'm pretty excited about it.

I have to say that your comment about under the swingarm got me thinking. I'm not a fan of the "on the swingarm" motor mounts. Are we really that oblivious to unsprung weight that we have to give mid drives the same disadvantages that hub motors have? I understand that at least you can have 3000W and above reduction with the swingarm mid drives, but why put that weight on the moving suspension? I stuffed the Big Block into the existing space behind the frame and it looks like it fits! I'll need to get the actual diameter of the tire that's going on the bike but this looks promising. Shorter chainline, better angle at the rear sprocket, no doing the boogaloo around the bottom bracket, this may be a huge winnah. I'm liking this thread already! Thanks Nutspecial!

The big question that I have about my large diameter custom sprockets is what will have to be done to the derailleur or the derailleur hanger to get things to line up and shift correctly? The sprockets are going to be fine. If I were as savvy about derailleurs as the guys who design the 11t to 34t clusters I could make a 22t to 64t no problem. There may be some trial and error involved but I'm convinced this will work. The concept is simple: thicker, stronger sprockets that have higher tooth counts. It's not rocket science.
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Re: The BEST and FIRST Qulbix Raptor mid-drive build!

Post by nutnspecial » Aug 26, 2016 8:15 am

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Well mine's not a raptor, or quibix. . . . but I did tape this template to it last year . . . :lol: :lol: :idea:
a100_1600.JPG
100_1595.JPG
Seriously though, a custom freewheel or cassette of normal width, for a 20mm thru axle DH style hub, with 3x custom #219 gears and custom deraileur would prob be capable of 7kw easily, and obviously smoke a single reduction motor of the same size and power level. . . . People with LR and cyclone etc would buy one too I bet, for anything +3kw.

But I digress. . I would def mount bigblock or similar on the swingarm. A 24" tire might even still fit w/o d/o mods, and you get the simplest robust and stationary driveline that can't negatively act on the suspension. Idt the sprung weight is considerable with that in light.

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Re: The BEST and FIRST Qulbix Raptor mid-drive build!

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Re: The BEST and FIRST Qulbix Raptor mid-drive build!

Post by LightningRods » Aug 26, 2016 10:30 am

Well look at that! You also figured out what seems to be the optimal location for the motor. I'm surprised that you didn't get more interest in your E-S thread. I think that being in German hurts you. I took some German in school and so was able to decipher bits and pieces.

Looks like your drive was nicely done. Best of luck with it.
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Re: The BEST and FIRST Qulbix Raptor mid-drive build!

Post by LightningRods » Aug 26, 2016 11:54 am

The Big Block seems to fit behind the bottom bracket, but as seems to be it's way, it just fits.

The rim in the photo is a 26", moved all the way forward in the dropout. There is almost exactly 2" between rim and motor. About the size of a mtb tire. The red line is the diameter of a 70/100-19'' MX tire, about 25". This is the standard Qulbix tire.

Image

There is a cross brace at the front of the Qulbix swingarm. The Big Block lines up almost exactly even with it.

Image

I agree that mounting the motor on the swingarm near the pivot gives the mass of the motor less of a lever to work with. It's much better than a hub motor which is out at the end of the long swingarm creating as much suspension inertia as possible. I'm still going with a frame mount. The angle on the chainline is very good from this position. Frame mounting removes all of the unsprung weight from the swing arm and gives the motor some isolation from terrain impacts and vibration.

My main design challenge now is working out the left-right spacing of the left side chain run. The larger the diameter of the driven sprocket, the farther inboard to the right I have to move it and have the upper chain run still clear the swing arm.
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Re: The BEST and FIRST Qulbix Raptor mid-drive build!

Post by tikivic » Aug 26, 2016 1:07 pm

If anyone is interested, I am currently working on a Cyclone drive on a Q76. My build thread is: https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... =6&t=80381
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Re: The BEST and FIRST Qulbix Raptor mid-drive build!

Post by ElectricGod » Aug 27, 2016 11:29 am

So close to the pivot point on the swing arm and inside the rear shock. That's about as close to sprung as you can get and still be unsprung. How about make some kind of bracket that goes to the BB and to the down post and keep the motor in that same spot under the swing arm? It's an ideal location for the motor and that would make the motor 100% sprung.
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Re: The BEST and FIRST Qulbix Raptor mid-drive build!

Post by recumpence » Aug 27, 2016 11:37 am

ElectricGod wrote:So close to the pivot point on the swing arm and inside the rear shock. That's about as close to sprung as you can get and still be unsprung. How about make some kind of bracket that goes to the BB and to the down post and keep the motor in that same spot under the swing arm? It's an ideal location for the motor and that would make the motor 100% sprung.
Are you talking about Mike's bike or the cyclone build?
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Re: The BEST and FIRST Qulbix Raptor mid-drive build!

Post by LightningRods » Aug 27, 2016 12:07 pm

Mine of course!

I am going to mount to the lower frame plate near the BB. I'm going to try a .250" thick aluminum bracket on the drive side only. I'm also planning a skid plate that will attach to the BB.
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Re: The BEST and FIRST Qulbix Raptor mid-drive build!

Post by recumpence » Aug 27, 2016 4:30 pm

LightningRods wrote:Mine of course!

I am going to mount to the lower frame plate near the BB. I'm going to try a .250" thick aluminum bracket on the drive side only. I'm also planning a skid plate that will attach to the BB.
It was unclear as to who he was talking about at first. I, innitially thought he was talking about the Cyclone build. I thought it was strange he was saying the Cycle was unsprung.

Anyway, game on!

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Re: The BEST and FIRST Qulbix Raptor mid-drive build!

Post by spinningmagnets » Aug 27, 2016 6:08 pm

I know a lot of the previous Raptor builds used a large rear hubmotor, and consequently builders frequently opted for a fat tire to help with shocks (even with rear suspension), and of course traction too.

A Q76 would start out pretty light, and a mid mount motor would emphasize the nimble characteristic of its ride feel. A 19-inch moped rim with a 3-inch rear tire would roughly come out to a 26 inch OD (give or take a red hair)

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Re: The BEST and FIRST Qulbix Raptor mid-drive build!

Post by jpgey » Aug 27, 2016 6:25 pm

tikivic wrote:If anyone is interested, I am currently working on a Cyclone drive on a Q76.
Sorry to say that reduction by the BB is not in agreement with this topic, you confuse the potatoes with tomatoes. Thats why recumpence had to start a new topic.

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