The BEST and FIRST Qulbix Raptor mid-drive build!

Discussions related to motors other than hub motors.
This includes R/C motors, botttom bracket, roller and geared drives.
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nutnspecial
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Re: The BEST and FIRST Qulbix Raptor mid-drive build!

Post by nutnspecial » Jun 21, 2017 8:54 pm

does somebody make a shifted caliper adapter?
I don't know of anything like that. On a steel frame I'd just fab/weld on my own 203mm caliper mount bracket onto the frame, taking from post to side mount. It could be pretty simple like nuts and scrap metal.


Guys, other than sprocket size limitation do you see any major problems with the sprocket basically being under the inward part of the caliper? Also curious of opinions at whether I should mess around with the hollow 12mm shaft or just find a solid one? Thanks!

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Re: The BEST and FIRST Qulbix Raptor mid-drive build!

Post by recumpence » Jun 21, 2017 9:13 pm

Simpleton wrote:Apologies for the slightly OT-ness, but with the Top Hat, how do you deal with the rotor shift towards the frame when you insert the adapter between the hub and the rotor? I imagine you guys can fabricate a caliper mount that can deal with the rotor moving over however thick the adapter is - is that the go to method of dealing with the new rotor position, or does somebody make a shifted caliper adapter?

Thanks.
I just machine 2mm off the caliper mount to move it outward a touch.
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Re: The BEST and FIRST Qulbix Raptor mid-drive build!

Post by DanGT86 » Jun 21, 2017 10:18 pm

219isawesome.jpg
219isawesome.jpg (203.92 KiB) Viewed 1058 times
This is a 50 tooth 219 with a 203mm rotor. The Caliper fit by hanging over the chain between the rotor and the wheel. Depending on the brake pads the little tabs on the pad need to be shortened slightly. It was that close and 50 teeth is all you are getting away with.

I never got it running but I suspect the 50 tooth aluminum sprocket would have died pretty quickly. I'm no mechanical engineer but I think regardless of the tooth count, the small diameter of the sprocket compared to the 26" wheel would have been hard on the aluminum teeth.

And as mentioned earlier 50 tooth is pretty small so you would need reduction somewhere upstream to run 50t with a 26" at sane speeds.

If a bike had zero chain growth like a hard tail or motor mounted on the swing-arm the brake and rotor could be on the front sprocket too. It would not be ideal but would be better than no rear brake.

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Re: The BEST and FIRST Qulbix Raptor mid-drive build!

Post by LightningRods » Jun 22, 2017 1:47 am

I'm making offset caliper mounts right now. The caliper previously sat on top of a bracket bolted inside of the dropout. With the new position of the rotor the caliper needs to sit right on top of the dropout. The new mount bolts on from the outside and has a relief milled into it for the dropout.

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My 96T 219 wheel sprocket is made from .13O" stainless steel. With a tooth count this large a stainless sprocket should last virtually forever.

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Re: The BEST and FIRST Qulbix Raptor mid-drive build!

Post by Mammalian04 » Jun 24, 2017 12:08 am

Hi MIke, will I need this caliper spacer on both my Raptors or just the one with the swingarm mount? Can I use the hubs/wheel interchangeably between the two bikes or will they not work with alignment?

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Re: The BEST and FIRST Qulbix Raptor mid-drive build!

Post by LightningRods » Jun 24, 2017 10:36 am

The bottom bracket drive that I built for you can run with a normal rear hub and derailleur. The overall reduction in that two stage drive is 15:1 so it will work great with standard gears. A 22t will give you the speed that an 11t typically would give on a pedal assist mid drive. You don't need a caliper adapter for this drive.

The swing arm drive needs a dedicated sprocket on the left. If you use my billet wheel hub with the rotor offset you will need the caliper mount adapter.
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Re: The BEST and FIRST Qulbix Raptor mid-drive build!

Post by LightningRods » Jun 24, 2017 10:49 am

The first batch of five offset caliper mounts are back from the machinist. The mount positions the caliper mount screws right over the swingarm where they need to be for proper rotor alignment. I couldn't trim the existing bracket. There would have been almost nothing left of it.

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I should have my freshly laced wheel back this next week. Then I can start final assembly. I have an 18 FET PowerVelocity sine wave controller that I'll be running at 8O amps, 84V. 6,72O watts with 8:1 reduction. It should move right along.
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Re: The BEST and FIRST Qulbix Raptor mid-drive build!

Post by Mammalian04 » Jun 25, 2017 2:43 pm

LightningRods wrote:The bottom bracket drive that I built for you can run with a normal rear hub and derailleur. The overall reduction in that two stage drive is 15:1 so it will work great with standard gears. A 22t will give you the speed that an 11t typically would give on a pedal assist mid drive. You don't need a caliper adapter for this drive.

The swing arm drive needs a dedicated sprocket on the left. If you use my billet wheel hub with the rotor offset you will need the caliper mount adapter.

Thanks! Can you add the adapter with my hub for the swing arm drive kit?


Also, do you have that beefy rear hub ready for the bottom bracket drive or should I just go grab a generic Hope rear hub and lace that to the 19" moto wheel I have waiting for it?

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Re: The BEST and FIRST Qulbix Raptor mid-drive build!

Post by LightningRods » Jun 25, 2017 3:03 pm

Yep. The new caliper mount will be part of the swing arm drive.

I'd recommend getting a quality 150mm manufactured hub for the bottom bracket drive. Mass production parts are almost always less expensive than hand made. There is no manufactured left side drive hub that also has a left side rotor mount and a right side freewheel thread.
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Re: The BEST and FIRST Qulbix Raptor mid-drive build!

Post by Mammalian04 » Jun 28, 2017 11:24 am

LightningRods wrote:Yep. The new caliper mount will be part of the swing arm drive.

I'd recommend getting a quality 150mm manufactured hub for the bottom bracket drive. Mass production parts are almost always less expensive than hand made. There is no manufactured left side drive hub that also has a left side rotor mount and a right side freewheel thread.
Ok. That dropout is 165mm though isn't it?

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Re: The BEST and FIRST Qulbix Raptor mid-drive build!

Post by Electrodaemon » Jun 28, 2017 11:39 am

According to Qulbix they have both 150mm and 165mm dropout width swingarms. I'm going to look at a few 170mm free hubs and see if I can find one where the end spacers can be narrowed 5mm (.197"). That's less than 1/10 inch per side which is almost nothing. I prefer that to trying to spread the swingarm.

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Re: The BEST and FIRST Qulbix Raptor mid-drive build!

Post by Mammalian04 » Jun 28, 2017 11:47 am

Electrodaemon wrote:According to Qulbix they have both 150mm and 165mm dropout width swingarms. I'm going to look at a few 170mm free hubs and see if I can find one where the end spacers can be narrowed 5mm (.197"). That's less than 1/10 inch per side which is almost nothing. I prefer that to trying to spread the swingarm.
Ok, thanks. Mine are all 165mm.

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Re: The BEST and FIRST Qulbix Raptor mid-drive build!

Post by Mammalian04 » Jun 28, 2017 1:36 pm

Were those 3 prototype hubs all for the swingarm mount? I thought one of them was a 165mm for my bottom bracket drive but my memory could be failing me here.

Thanks!

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Re: The BEST and FIRST Qulbix Raptor mid-drive build!

Post by LightningRods » Jun 30, 2017 8:56 pm

All three of those hubs are for swingarm mount kits. The bottom bracket kits can run a normal high quality rear hub on the right side. I recommend an 8 speed with 3/32" chain. It's more gears than you'll want or need and the sprockets are thicker.
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Re: The BEST and FIRST Qulbix Raptor mid-drive build!

Post by LightningRods » Jun 30, 2017 8:57 pm

I've posted a "for sale" information page for the Qulbix swingarm drive on E-S.

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 31&t=89215
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Re: The BEST and FIRST Qulbix Raptor mid-drive build!

Post by notger » Jul 01, 2017 4:42 pm

So wait,....The Big Block does not have a freewheel.
so the Motor could actually get used for recuperation then, right ?
Just the Question if the Big Block would do the recup ?

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Re: The BEST and FIRST Qulbix Raptor mid-drive build!

Post by LightningRods » Jul 01, 2017 5:34 pm

Good catch! There is no freewheel between the rear wheel and motor. I did this initially to get more reduction. It occurred to me afterward that regenerative braking should be possible. I have the bike fitted with a controller that has adjustable regen. If the wheel shop ever gets my wheel back to me I'll let you know if and how it works.
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Re: The BEST and FIRST Qulbix Raptor mid-drive build!

Post by Marin » Jul 01, 2017 10:22 pm

so your going to make me buy a frame so I can get this drive,

way to go Mike, good to see you here,
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Re: The BEST and FIRST Qulbix Raptor mid-drive build!

Post by LightningRods » Jul 01, 2017 10:36 pm

Good to be here. Regrouping after a tough winter.
Last edited by LightningRods on Jul 02, 2017 8:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The BEST and FIRST Qulbix Raptor mid-drive build!

Post by DanGT86 » Jul 01, 2017 11:53 pm

LightningRods wrote:Good catch! There is no freewheel between the rear wheel and motor. I did this initially to get more reduction. It occurred to me afterward that regenerative braking should be possible. I have the bike fitted with a controller that has adjustable regen. If the wheel shop ever gets my wheel back to me I'll let you know if and how it works.
My little RC motor is mounted to my swingarm and regens just fine. The chain setup really doesn't care which direction the power is flowing. Chain regen will only work if there is no spring loaded tensioner! If there is a spring loaded tensioner then under regen the bottom chain will pull itself straight and all that slack will appear on top of the chain likely flinging it off. With no rear freewheel this is a terrifying thought. 219 chain is beast and will eat whatever is in its way. The hit of the regen would also be violent while it takes up the slack of the puny tensioner spring.

You could run a very solid but adjustable idler type chain tensioner that is not spring loaded. This, having more travel than a horizontal dropout, also leaves you the option for drastic sprocket changes out in the wild.

Another solution would be a sliding rear axle plate dropout like motorcycles use with no other tensioner.

Yet another solution could be a larger diameter hub axle that is machined with 2 flats for a clamping style dropout to hold onto. Problem there is you need pretty long clamping style dropouts and its still anybody's guess if they would keep the axle from sliding.

You could also take up the slack with a sliding front motor mount. Bottom line is the tensioner has to be static because under regen it is dealing with a lot of force. We don't commonly see idlers on the tight side of the chain for a reason.

Unfortunately, any of these static tension methods require really precise sprockets. Once its all rigid the imperfections in the sprockets show up as drastically different tension during every revolution. I bought some cheap 3/4" bore kart sprockets and designed around them and now I wish I hadn't. My front sprocket is so bad that there is probably a link worth of slop in one revolution. Its really annoying and induces a terrifying vibration at speed. I also have to make sure its at the tightest point when I adjust the chain tension or it will bend something when it rotates around. Probably need to go to those $30-40 ones that the high end shifter karts use :x

So chain drive regen is totally possible but there are a few little design hiccups.

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Re: The BEST and FIRST Qulbix Raptor mid-drive build!

Post by madin88 » Jul 02, 2017 2:11 am

How is the drag of the motor?
this would be the most important thing when talking about regen on a middrive. if the drag is too high, you can forget about it and a freewheel is needed.
DanGT86 wrote: You could run a very solid but adjustable idler type chain tensioner that is not spring loaded. This, having more travel than a horizontal dropout, also leaves you the option for drastic sprocket changes out in the wild.
absolutely! a spring loaded chain tensioner isn't necessary if there is no chain growth during compression (which is usually the case if the motor is mounted on the swingarm).
the Qulbix frames already have horizontal dropouts which makes a few mm adustment possible. if the motor could be adusted as well it would be enough imo.
Belt drive would be nice, but i heared it isn't that good for offroad use in dirty environment..
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Re: The BEST and FIRST Qulbix Raptor mid-drive build!

Post by notger » Jul 02, 2017 3:29 am

madin88 wrote:How is the drag of the motor?
That was actually my first thought before i was thinking of regen braking.
Cause, sure it should be more a motorcycle than a bike, but the possibility of pedaling without motor would still be nice.
I have a GNG-LR mutant and the motor has quite some drag, not sure how it adds up with the 219 Chain an the giant rear Chainwheel.

Another thought:
My GNG Motor worked fine together with LR-belt reduction and using the bikes rear derailleur shifting.
with that direct Motor to backwheel transmission it might need a Street (high-speed) or Mountain (climbing) option, cause in low speeds (expl. climbing a hill) the motor is just maltreated until it reaches its efficient rpms in high speeds.
Otherwise the Mid-drive idea with using the bikes gears is wasted and a Hub-Motor would just be as good as this setup in terms of motor-efficiency ?? Or am i missing something here ?

LightningRods wrote: Identical to Q76R:
https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/ ... 0.0.ghoieg
Please don't do that. The Original Quilbix is not much more expensive, and with pointing out Chinese Clones here just the same will happen like to your LR-mid drive Kit. The chinese will just copy every smart Idea produce it with their slaves and sell that stuff off enourmously cheap.
Slovenia where Quilbix is produced would still need some developement to catch up with the rest of the EU states, so please rather send your money their instead of supporting chinese slavery.

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Re: The BEST and FIRST Qulbix Raptor mid-drive build!

Post by madin88 » Jul 02, 2017 4:12 am

notger wrote: with that direct Motor to backwheel transmission it might need a Street (high-speed) or Mountain (climbing) option, cause in low speeds (expl. climbing a hill) the motor is just maltreated until it reaches its efficient rpms in high speeds.
Otherwise the Mid-drive idea with using the bikes gears is wasted and a Hub-Motor would just be as good as this setup in terms of motor-efficiency ?? Or am i missing something here ?
see it like this:
if the windings in your hub motor are turning lets say 3000W of the power into heat when producing 100Nm of torque, and the mid drive system is producing only 1500W at the same torque, than the it is already much better. Also don't forget about the huge improvement of reduced unsprung mass!

I personally would first check how many RPM the motor can do without excessive eddy losses, and than i would use all that RPM range.
Usually: the greater the reduction, the lower the heat at given torque and the topspeed can be simple adjusted with battery voltage (or motor kV) up to a certain point.
however, i agree that a two stage reduction would make sense, but than things starting to become much more complex.
LightningRods wrote: Identical to Q76R:
https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/ ... 0.0.ghoieg
Please don't do that. The Original Quilbix is not much more expensive, and with pointing out Chinese Clones here just the same will happen like to your LR-mid drive Kit. The chinese will just copy every smart Idea produce it with their slaves and sell that stuff off enourmously cheap.
Slovenia where Quilbix is produced would still need some developement to catch up with the rest of the EU states, so please rather send your money their instead of supporting chinese slavery.
so true
and even if the frame looks similar, it might be the case that it isn't 100% and the drive doesn't fit. right?
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Re: The BEST and FIRST Qulbix Raptor mid-drive build!

Post by DanGT86 » Jul 02, 2017 8:49 am

madin88 wrote:How is the drag of the motor?
this would be the most important thing when talking about regen on a middrive. if the drag is too high, you can forget about it and a freewheel is needed.
DanGT86 wrote: You could run a very solid but adjustable idler type chain tensioner that is not spring loaded. This, having more travel than a horizontal dropout, also leaves you the option for drastic sprocket changes out in the wild.
absolutely! a spring loaded chain tensioner isn't necessary if there is no chain growth during compression (which is usually the case if the motor is mounted on the swingarm).
the Qulbix frames already have horizontal dropouts which makes a few mm adustment possible. if the motor could be adusted as well it would be enough imo.
Belt drive would be nice, but i heared it isn't that good for offroad use in dirty environment..
From my limited experience with my RC mid drive on swingarm, the drag feels like a hub motor. There is an extreme amount of cogging you can feel compared to my hubs but the overall drag without any freewheel feels about the same. I just figured that watt for watt if the motor is single speed and covers 0-40mph like a hub then the regen would also be reasonable like a hub. There is definitely more stuff to jerk loose with the regen forces and a little more slack but overall it seems to cancel out through the drive reductions making it feel pretty normal.

Tiny motor diameter produces very little regen torque but with its high reduction to the wheel it ends up being overdriven so the tiny torque is a lot when you get to the wheel just like in the forward direction. That does make the pronounced cogging a bit curious because I figured that would reduce through the drive too.

Just as a matter of personal preference, I would gladly give up the ability to do regen in exchange for a rear hub mounted freewheel capable of 5000watts. Ive seen bike chains jump inboard of the largest cog and cut the spokes off of a mountain bike wheel. I can't imagine how catastrophic my 219 chain would be. I also like the idea of being able let off the throttle if my pants or shoelace becomes entangled in the drive. With a rigid mounted rear sprocket at speed you are pretty much going in if you get caught up in the chain.

LR's Raptor arm setup looks very well guarded and solid with a really clean chain path. Its the fragile tubes and dropouts of a normal mtb frame that look kinda scary with a kart or moto chain and solid rear sprocket.

Belt drives are cool but a belt capable of final drive torque would be pretty wide and I believe they are really sensitive to axial alignment. The longer the distance between pulleys the harder it is to keep everything straight. If the swingarm flexes under torque it may be enough to walk the belt off. Sure would be nice though. Chains are loud.

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Re: The BEST and FIRST Qulbix Raptor mid-drive build!

Post by recumpence » Jul 02, 2017 9:19 am

DanGT86 wrote:
madin88 wrote:How is the drag of the motor?
this would be the most important thing when talking about regen on a middrive. if the drag is too high, you can forget about it and a freewheel is needed.
DanGT86 wrote: You could run a very solid but adjustable idler type chain tensioner that is not spring loaded. This, having more travel than a horizontal dropout, also leaves you the option for drastic sprocket changes out in the wild.
absolutely! a spring loaded chain tensioner isn't necessary if there is no chain growth during compression (which is usually the case if the motor is mounted on the swingarm).
the Qulbix frames already have horizontal dropouts which makes a few mm adustment possible. if the motor could be adusted as well it would be enough imo.
Belt drive would be nice, but i heared it isn't that good for offroad use in dirty environment..
From my limited experience with my RC mid drive on swingarm, the drag feels like a hub motor. There is an extreme amount of cogging you can feel compared to my hubs but the overall drag without any freewheel feels about the same. I just figured that watt for watt if the motor is single speed and covers 0-40mph like a hub then the regen would also be reasonable like a hub. There is definitely more stuff to jerk loose with the regen forces and a little more slack but overall it seems to cancel out through the drive reductions making it feel pretty normal.

Tiny motor diameter produces very little regen torque but with its high reduction to the wheel it ends up being overdriven so the tiny torque is a lot when you get to the wheel just like in the forward direction. That does make the pronounced cogging a bit curious because I figured that would reduce through the drive too.

Just as a matter of personal preference, I would gladly give up the ability to do regen in exchange for a rear hub mounted freewheel capable of 5000watts. Ive seen bike chains jump inboard of the largest cog and cut the spokes off of a mountain bike wheel. I can't imagine how catastrophic my 219 chain would be. I also like the idea of being able let off the throttle if my pants or shoelace becomes entangled in the drive. With a rigid mounted rear sprocket at speed you are pretty much going in if you get caught up in the chain.

LR's Raptor arm setup looks very well guarded and solid with a really clean chain path. Its the fragile tubes and dropouts of a normal mtb frame that look kinda scary with a kart or moto chain and solid rear sprocket.

Belt drives are cool but a belt capable of final drive torque would be pretty wide and I believe they are really sensitive to axial alignment. The longer the distance between pulleys the harder it is to keep everything straight. If the swingarm flexes under torque it may be enough to walk the belt off. Sure would be nice though. Chains are loud.
Chains are only loud when run at relatively high RPM around a low tooth count sprocket.
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