## Ultimate BBSHD Grin Phase Runner FOC 3000W

Discussions related to motors other than hub motors.
This includes R/C motors, botttom bracket, roller and geared drives.
StinkyGoalieGuy   100 W

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### Re: Ultimate BBSHD Grin Phase Runner FOC 3000W

WoodlandHills wrote:
Or you could use an IGH with that BMX chain and have three speed ranges.......
Yes, very true. But for simplicity and reliability, I'm fine with a top speed of 25MPH and with that gear ratio, I can climb anything that I encounter on my work commute. I'm currently using a 30T front to a 34T rear, and I can almost climb what I need. On one 34% section of trail, the motor is dragging and I will help with a little bit of pedaling so as to not stall the motor. At 30T/42T it should climb it with no problems without any pedaling.

I had a Nuvinci n171 before and I had to create some custom torque plates and carry a wrench with me in case I need to change a flat. If I can avoid an IGH all together, that would be preferred.

robocam   10 kW

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### Re: Ultimate BBSHD Grin Phase Runner FOC 3000W

Actually, horsepower is a measurement of power, and so is wattage (current X voltage = wattage). Voltage compares to RPM.
WoodlandHills wrote:So can we figure that amps is equivalent to torque and volts are equivalent to horsepower? In a general sense?

WoodlandHills   10 kW

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### Re: Ultimate BBSHD Grin Phase Runner FOC 3000W

robocam wrote:Actually, horsepower is a measurement of power, and so is wattage (current X voltage = wattage). Voltage compares to RPM.
WoodlandHills wrote:So can we figure that amps is equivalent to torque and volts are equivalent to horsepower? In a general sense?
I was thinking in a seat of the pants sense. I always thought of torque as acelleration and horsepower as speed. On the track hp won races, but on the street torque got the job done.

robocam   10 kW

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### Re: Ultimate BBSHD Grin Phase Runner FOC 3000W

=) Well if you have a certain hp, you can put down virtually any torque you want depending on your gearing. Back when cars had 2 or 3 speeds, torque mattered more, but now we have transmissions with so many more gear ratios (what are we up to now, 9-speeds?), so torque is not as big of a concern as it used to be. The winner is the one that can make their motor produce the most horsepower for the greatest amount of time (you know, the greatest area under the curve, the most work done). It doesn't matter what the peak torque rating of the motor is. It really is horsepower that wins races, drag or track. Here's an interesting link about the subject.

http://www.hotrod.com/articles/hrdp-040 ... wer-guide/
WoodlandHills wrote:I was thinking in a seat of the pants sense. I always thought of torque as acelleration and horsepower as speed. On the track hp won races, but on the street torque got the job done.

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### Re: Ultimate BBSHD Grin Phase Runner FOC 3000W

WoodlandHills wrote:I recieved my Phaserunner/CA3 kit from ERT yesterday and after mocking up the installation on my bike I must say that I am very impressed: both the CA3 and the Phaserunner are quality items and the cabling and termination of the ERT kit is excellent. It was all well packed and arrived w/o any damage.

Of course, being a generic kit the cabling is all the wrong length, but I expected that and will be marking the correct dimensions for ERT to custom build the harness to my specs. Looking back, I should have asked for a bare wire kit so that Alan would not have to redo his own work Sorry!

I am going to be taking my time with this build since winter is actually the best season to ride out here and I already have a pair of eMTBs built waiting to be enjoyed. I'll use one of my old BBSHDs to work out cable length, but will be ordering a new one for this build. That way any premature wear is all down to this build only and not any abuse I might have put it through previously! The intent is to run the BBSHD at 52v and 40a initially, moving up to 72v once I work out how to mount the larger pack.

Any new on how this setup turns out ??? I'm puzzuled.

WoodlandHills   10 kW

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### Re: Ultimate BBSHD Grin Phase Runner FOC 3000W

We are working on drivability and smoothing out the power. It's taking a while because we both have other lives that take priority......

titusmc   100 W

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### Re: Ultimate BBSHD Grin Phase Runner FOC 3000W

Anyone here have a recommendation for dealing with motor "judder" or "stutter" that occurs with the BBSHD/Phaserunner combo when resuming throttle after coasting? From what I've gathered reading around here it isn't trivial to solve. Best suggestion I saw was from Justin and recommended a low level PAS setup (~20W) with CA3 to keep the motor/drivetrain engaged whenever the bike is moving, by using a speedo magnet to provide the PAS signal.

I'm interested what you guys think since I haven't seen this issue mentioned at all here and it is the only thing that bothers me about my otherwise awesome new system.

Matt

StinkyGoalieGuy   100 W

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### Re: Ultimate BBSHD Grin Phase Runner FOC 3000W

titusmc wrote:Anyone here have a recommendation for dealing with motor "judder" or "stutter" that occurs with the BBSHD/Phaserunner combo when resuming throttle after coasting? From what I've gathered reading around here it isn't trivial to solve. Best suggestion I saw was from Justin and recommended a low level PAS setup (~20W) with CA3 to keep the motor/drivetrain engaged whenever the bike is moving, by using a speedo magnet to provide the PAS signal.

I'm interested what you guys think since I haven't seen this issue mentioned at all here and it is the only thing that bothers me about my otherwise awesome new system.

Matt
I have been thinking about this as well. I saw Justin's recommendation but I thought it was to remap the throttle so that it is always slightly engaged. But the low level PAS idea is even better so that the motor doesn't have to "run" when I'm at a stand still. I'm going to try playing around with this. If I get it to work I'll post my settings. If you get it to work, please do the same.

I agree, awesome system. Very quiet yet powerful. I have mine set up as a two speed, a 30T on the front and a 40T or 28T in the rear. Perfect for my no-pedal commuting with some 30%+ grades to climb.

titusmc   100 W

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### Re: Ultimate BBSHD Grin Phase Runner FOC 3000W

I'll definitely post about it if I implement a satisfactory solution. The problem really got me this morning when I was stuck behind a semi waiting to turn left and I decided to pass him slowly up the shoulder. Then it seemed like he was going to turn and I didn't know how much room I was going have so I hit the throttle. Judder, then fault of some sort. I had to pedal to where I could disconnect and reconnect the battery. Fault cleared and all normal, but I felt like an idiot.

I also saw the throttle remap suggestion but it just doesn't seem ideal. I'd prefer the PAS style solution but my only speedo magnet currently goes directly to the CA3. I'll probably try it with another speedo until I can see how well it works, then try to make some type of harness so the CA3 speed and PAS come from the same speedo.

I'm curious how the stock BBSHD gets around this issue? Is it always slightly engaged or is the throttle programmed to engage at low torque prior to ramping up?

Matt

titusmc   100 W

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### Re: Ultimate BBSHD Grin Phase Runner FOC 3000W

I wonder if it makes sense to use the FastRate and UpRate settings on the CA3 backwards? I.e. The FastRate would actually be slower than UpRate, with FastThrsh current set to the current seen at engagement. So, when you use the throttle, the motor would engage slowly until the current limit of engagement, then ramp up normally as defined by UpRate. Just a thought.

Would be very interested in Justin's opinion. :0 .

Matt

StinkyGoalieGuy   100 W

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### Re: Ultimate BBSHD Grin Phase Runner FOC 3000W

titusmc wrote:
I'm curious how the stock BBSHD gets around this issue? Is it always slightly engaged or is the throttle programmed to engage at low torque prior to ramping up?

Matt
I hope we are talking about the same issue. My understanding is that because the Phaserunner is a current controller as opposed a voltage controller that most controllers are, when you give the Phaserunner even a tiny bit of throttle the motor ramps up to full RPMs, though with little torque. So the motor spins to full spin speed, then slams to a stop when the slack in in the chain, gears, or clutch is all taken up. Then it might bounce off that sudden stop and maybe do it again. At most I only feel one very slight "bounce". If I pedal first or at least move the pedal enough to take up the slack, then give it throttle, I don't have this issue. But if I'm coasting then engage the throttle I'll have this same problem. I have never had a controller fault or any problems accelerating due to this, but I just don't like how it slams the drive train and it's problem torture on that nylon gear. I assume the stock BBSHD is a voltage based controller. I didn't have this problem either when I used another external controller which was voltage based.

Dogboy1200   100 W

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### Re: Ultimate BBSHD Grin Phase Runner FOC 3000W

StinkyGoalieGuy wrote:
titusmc wrote:
I'm curious how the stock BBSHD gets around this issue? Is it always slightly engaged or is the throttle programmed to engage at low torque prior to ramping up?

Matt
I hope we are talking about the same issue. My understanding is that because the Phaserunner is a current controller as opposed a voltage controller that most controllers are, when you give the Phaserunner even a tiny bit of throttle the motor ramps up to full RPMs, though with little torque. So the motor spins to full spin speed, then slams to a stop when the slack in in the chain, gears, or clutch is all taken up. Then it might bounce off that sudden stop and maybe do it again. At most I only feel one very slight "bounce". If I pedal first or at least move the pedal enough to take up the slack, then give it throttle, I don't have this issue. But if I'm coasting then engage the throttle I'll have this same problem. I have never had a controller fault or any problems accelerating due to this, but I just don't like how it slams the drive train and it's problem torture on that nylon gear. I assume the stock BBSHD is a voltage based controller. I didn't have this problem either when I used another external controller which was voltage based.
The BBSHD controller can be set for current or speed in the settings.
2007 Transition Preston FR BBS02 https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 28&t=73635 Now HD https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... &start=225
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fechter   100 GW

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### Re: Ultimate BBSHD Grin Phase Runner FOC 3000W

The BBSHD stock controller does slam a bit too when giving throttle from a coasting mode. It would be hard to avoid this with any setup.
"One test is worth a thousand opinions"

titusmc   100 W

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### Re: Ultimate BBSHD Grin Phase Runner FOC 3000W

I think I have mostly solved the issue by Justin's suggestion in another thread. Basically, I put the bike on a stand with the rear wheel off the ground and raised the min throttle voltage in 0.01 V increments until the motor started turning (1.16V for me). That value provides very little torque, such that the bike will not move when the tire is contacting the ground, but it keeps the motor engaged. This morning on my commute to work it seemed to eliminate the issue I was having and it only increased the no load power consumption by about 3 W - totally reasonable. The only thing that is annoying is you can hear a high pitch (just barely audible) whenever the bike is powered up.

Alan B   100 GW

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### Re: Ultimate BBSHD Grin Phase Runner FOC 3000W

Hopefully ASI will upgrade the firmware in the PhaseRunner, this is not hard to fix if done properly in the controller. Any motor with a clutch in it could benefit from an algorithm that managed the RPM increase rate when the clutch was not engaged and prevented wind-up in the feedback loop, limiting the torque until the load has settled. Long-chainline mid-drives would benefit the most from this, but even a geared hubmotor would benefit from more careful handing of the gear and clutch shock. In the case of a hubmotor the gear ratio is fixed and the rpm vs speed is known so the rpm ramp could be nicely tailored to accelerate quickly, then slow as lockup occurs. Once locked up the torque or speed request from the throttle could be ramped in.

titusmc   100 W

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### Re: Ultimate BBSHD Grin Phase Runner FOC 3000W

Decided to convert my Phaserunner BBSHD bike to a single speed (28T front, 20T rear) for better chainline and simplicity. I've only had a chance for one test ride, but it seems like it can't take WOT off the line like it could before (36T front, 16T rear). I haven't changed any of the Phaserunner/CA3 programming yet, but it seems like maybe something needs to be altered there for the lower gearing. The best I can describe it is that the bike is great and smooth if you baby the throttle, but if I go WOT it feels like something "slips" and I get judder and fault.

Thoughts/suggestions welcome.

Bike looks awesome as a single speed - went for a red Lekkie Bling Ring HD 28T and origin 8 cog, spacer kit, and tensioner.

StinkyGoalieGuy   100 W

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### Re: Ultimate BBSHD Grin Phase Runner FOC 3000W

titusmc wrote:Decided to convert my Phaserunner BBSHD bike to a single speed (28T front, 20T rear) for better chainline and simplicity. I've only had a chance for one test ride, but it seems like it can't take WOT off the line like it could before (36T front, 16T rear).
That is really odd. So you have lowered the gearing, meaning making it easier for the BBSHD to drive the rear wheel and you no get WOT issues whereas you didn't before? What kind of amps do you see and what voltage sag when you go WOT?

titusmc   100 W

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### Re: Ultimate BBSHD Grin Phase Runner FOC 3000W

Not sure what was going on before but it is resolved now. It could have been several things. First, I used the wrong cassette lockring when I converted to single speed because the Origin8 kit only came with spacers and I didn’t even know there are different size lock rings. I used an 11T one I had and it basically embedded itself in the end spacer. I switched to a 12T once I realized they make larger ones and the conversion seems more solid. I also put the bike on the stand and re-did the basic phaserunner programming. No issues on the stand so I enabled 30A of field weakening. I cut the CA3 ramp up rate in half, thinking that my issue had something to do with torque coming up too fast with the lower gearing.

Anyway, took it for a test ride and the issue was gone. Field weakening is impressive - lowered my gearing by almost a factor of 2 and didn’t lose any top speed. The bike seems even smoother and more powerful with higher RPM.

andrebandre   100 W

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### Re: Ultimate BBSHD Grin Phase Runner FOC 3000W

It took a while to get it due to Alan having some personal problems but it arrived at last.
Well packaged and even got a cover and programming cable thrown in as a bonus for baing pacient.
I hope i will be able to manage to configure the PR and a basic CA setup.
In order to keep things simple with the CA i will not limit as muc as possible any parameters.
and possibly down the road when i understand better how it works will attempt some more comprehensive settings.
Eventually i will send everything to Reinhard (e-bike-technologies.de) replace the JST's with Higo's for a more weatherproof setup.
At least this is the plan.
A few pics of the goodies:

andrebandre   100 W

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### Re: Ultimate BBSHD Grin Phase Runner FOC 3000W

Got stuck at the autotune routine, phase 2, the spinning nerver happend just some suttering and an error about sensorless startup.
I don't quite understand the 4.4 paragraph. Yet. I will try to play with the settings a little maybe i get lucky.

andrebandre   100 W

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### Re: Ultimate BBSHD Grin Phase Runner FOC 3000W

I thought i'd better leave alone before i get too deep into meesing things up so i put back the original controller in order to verify everything still works as before.
After reading some more i decided to replace the BBSHD with an older BBSO2 i had as a spare and keep the former on my desk and mess with some more.
It seems like i can't even get the static test to pass even though on my first attempt i got stuck only on the dynamic phase of things.
I'll post a pic of my computer screen maybe someone can give me hint to might be wrong.
I can't make any sense of the blinking led on the PR. It seems like everything is wrong, it starts with 3 blinks two times, than 5 times, than 8 times then 6 times and lasttly one time.
I wonder if this means the 3, 5,6 and 8 errors. I could understand error 6 hall sensor fault might have something to do but the rest when i ahven't even strated anything.
I knew this kind of stuff is not for me but i will try to make some sense out of it at least maybe i can learn something.

andrebandre   100 W

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### Re: Ultimate BBSHD Grin Phase Runner FOC 3000W

And here is my junk all conected as far as know.

andrebandre   100 W

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### Re: Ultimate BBSHD Grin Phase Runner FOC 3000W

Well i reflashed the default parameters XML file and was able to get things going, had to revers the rotation and everything workd fine.
Then i had the malefic inspiration to change the battery voltage, maximum power from2000W to 3000 and max regen to Amps and saved.
Lo and behold nothing works and i get the "controller over voltage" error with a red dot for good measure and cant clear the SOB either by clicking the clear faults tab or recycling the power. Damn,i'm back to square one.
I will try some cheap "Canadian Mist" whisky, maby that will help burn down the house.

Alan B   100 GW

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### Re: Ultimate BBSHD Grin Phase Runner FOC 3000W

Changing the system voltage, if that's what you did, rescales almost every variable in the controller and completely undoes all the tuning that has been done. If you return to the previous system voltage setting things may return to a working state. Good luck.

andrebandre   100 W

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### Re: Ultimate BBSHD Grin Phase Runner FOC 3000W

Well i was able to redo the autotuning and again everything seems to work ok.
Of course not without some 1-6 led flashes on the controller and the yellow dot award VdcHighFLDBK on the PR Suite.
But at least the throttle works, the motor is spinning so the Canadian Mist must've helped at least partially.
I will leave any other battery,power,amps,regen alone on the software and probably will try to find out how to disable the regen and eventually try to learn to fine tune whatever can be tuned with the CA.