Kepler Friction drive comes of age.

Discussions related to motors other than hub motors.
This includes R/C motors, botttom bracket, roller and geared drives.
User avatar
Kepler
1 GW
1 GW
Posts: 3085
Joined: Nov 08, 2009 9:22 pm
Location: Eastern suburbs Melbourne Australia

Re: Kepler Friction drive comes of age.

Post by Kepler » Feb 23, 2017 5:18 pm

That is brilliant. Great work mhaskell.

I reckon you could get away with just one pack most of the time. So where did you end up mounting the Vesc? It would be nice to incorporate the Vesc into that battery mount. Also what voltage are you using?

What setting was causing the drive to disengage at high speed?
Current Rides

Lightest true ebike on the planet: ON ROAD https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... =6&t=74269
eBoost on facebook: http://www.facebook.com/pages/Eboost/200306283342024/
75 Volt 6 kW FUTR Beta 29'er: OFF ROAD

mhaskell
1 mW
1 mW
Posts: 17
Joined: Dec 30, 2016 10:42 am

Re: Kepler Friction drive comes of age.

Post by mhaskell » Feb 23, 2017 6:55 pm

Kepler wrote:That is brilliant. Great work mhaskell.

I reckon you could get away with just one pack most of the time. So where did you end up mounting the Vesc? It would be nice to incorporate the Vesc into that battery mount. Also what voltage are you using?

What setting was causing the drive to disengage at high speed?
I am running the packs in series, for 36v nominal. I am printing an enclosure for the vesc-x , mounted under the bottom bracket. Fitment is difficult since it is an areo frame with high aspect ratios.

The drive disengagment was a mechanical issue actually. I needed to rotate the bottom bracket mount clockwise to move the arm bracket closer to the tire. I needed more bite to force the motor up the tire.

I am using the largest bracket in the kit, but another 5-7mm longer would be ideal.

telcosteve
1 mW
1 mW
Posts: 18
Joined: Dec 15, 2016 9:33 pm

Re: Kepler Friction drive comes of age.

Post by telcosteve » Feb 24, 2017 7:14 pm

I have been enjoying the posts so far. I too got one of the prototypes. I finally mounted it to my bike and have tested with my controller and servo tester. runs great and really gets the wheel up to speed. I have been busy with work and home projects but hope to have set up and try a ride in the next few weeks. I too am having trouble with the engagement and had to adjust closer to tire. so for my test I put it on the tire. if I cant get it fine tuned I will probably go to the cable adjust method. You might want to consider that in your marketing Kepler as many of us do not have the talents you and others on the forum have.
I will definitely keep following. next I want to try the button throttle but for now I am happy that I was able to modify the bracket to fit my motor and get the wheel to spin :D

User avatar
Kepler
1 GW
1 GW
Posts: 3085
Joined: Nov 08, 2009 9:22 pm
Location: Eastern suburbs Melbourne Australia

Re: Kepler Friction drive comes of age.

Post by Kepler » Feb 25, 2017 4:42 am

Finally got the new road bike rolling today. I wanted this bike to be even lighter then my last road bike so the only way this was going to happen was to stick with a 50mm motor rather then a 63mm and use a smaller battery pack. Tried two 50mm motors, A Keda 230kv motor and an even smaller Turnigy SK3 5055 280 kv motor. With an ebike controller, the Turnigy motor struggled and was quite loud. However, with the Vesc in FOC mode, what a difference.

The little SK3 has transformed into a really sweet motor. Using the Vesc in FOC easily halved the noise that I have experienced with any other motor using a stock ebike controller. It is not going to break any power records, but its adequate for what I want to do.

In total I have pulled 700 grams off the bike. Doesn't sound like much but on a bike like this, its close to 10% of the total bike's weight. I am now running a 7S2P pack using 3500mah 18650 cells so this knocks off 400 grams and the motor is only 370 grams so this takes another 150 grams off the total weight. Other 150 grams comes from the lighter speed controller. Also got the 2 button throttle going nicely which gives me either 50% current or 100% current. Running the reduced current more then makes up for the reduction in battery capacity.

So the Vesc is a real winner. I was sceptical about what difference running FOC on a sensorless RC motor would make. And when bench testing, the motor was noisier in FOC mode then BCLD mode. However, under load, the motor is significantly quieter. I would say at least 50% quieter. Other wins are that the motor is definitely smoother and can take off from really slow speeds, in fact I think it would take off from a dead stop if I wanted.

For the sake of an extra $60 or $70, I would recommend the Vesc over and ebike controller any day. It is in my opinion, the prefect match for this friction drive.

I will post up some video with sound tomorrow to demonstrate the difference in noise.
Attachments
20170225_160957.jpg
The black object in front of the drive is the battery for the DI2 Shimano electronic shifters. Could be a good spot to mount the Vesc
20170225_160957.jpg (54.75 KiB) Viewed 2453 times
20170225_160927.jpg
20170225_160927.jpg (72.18 KiB) Viewed 2453 times
20170225_160917.jpg
20170225_160917.jpg (76.43 KiB) Viewed 2453 times
Current Rides

Lightest true ebike on the planet: ON ROAD https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... =6&t=74269
eBoost on facebook: http://www.facebook.com/pages/Eboost/200306283342024/
75 Volt 6 kW FUTR Beta 29'er: OFF ROAD

cwah
10 GW
10 GW
Posts: 4534
Joined: Jul 24, 2011 5:42 am
Location: Between paris and london

Re: Kepler Friction drive comes of age.

Post by cwah » Feb 25, 2017 5:34 am

Sounds good. Whats the total weight of the kit all included now (wiring, throttle, bolt, etc)
Help me find my stolen electric brompton: http://bit.ly/1a0vbBC and Bosch Sinus B3 http://bit.ly/1eV0WQz

User avatar
Kepler
1 GW
1 GW
Posts: 3085
Joined: Nov 08, 2009 9:22 pm
Location: Eastern suburbs Melbourne Australia

Re: Kepler Friction drive comes of age.

Post by Kepler » Feb 26, 2017 1:28 am

Total weight added to the bike including everything was 1720 grams. This is with SK3 5055 motor and the 7S2P 18650 pack.
Current Rides

Lightest true ebike on the planet: ON ROAD https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... =6&t=74269
eBoost on facebook: http://www.facebook.com/pages/Eboost/200306283342024/
75 Volt 6 kW FUTR Beta 29'er: OFF ROAD

cwah
10 GW
10 GW
Posts: 4534
Joined: Jul 24, 2011 5:42 am
Location: Between paris and london

Re: Kepler Friction drive comes of age.

Post by cwah » Feb 26, 2017 3:31 am

Looks good. One of the most useful kit for folding bike like brompton for the weight
Help me find my stolen electric brompton: http://bit.ly/1a0vbBC and Bosch Sinus B3 http://bit.ly/1eV0WQz

yoyoman
1 kW
1 kW
Posts: 478
Joined: Jun 09, 2008 11:13 pm
Location: San Diego, CA

Re: Kepler Friction drive comes of age.

Post by yoyoman » Feb 26, 2017 3:51 am

awesome. selfish me is happy that you've completed this and will soon be making a kickstand mount version ;) my 21pound folding bike is waiting for you!

User avatar
Kepler
1 GW
1 GW
Posts: 3085
Joined: Nov 08, 2009 9:22 pm
Location: Eastern suburbs Melbourne Australia

Re: Kepler Friction drive comes of age.

Post by Kepler » Feb 26, 2017 7:05 am

Managed to get out and do some testing using of the new bike conversion with the Vesc controller in FOC mode. Got some issues with the speed controller cutting out intermittently but noise wise, I am very please with the results.

You be the judge.

Current Rides

Lightest true ebike on the planet: ON ROAD https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... =6&t=74269
eBoost on facebook: http://www.facebook.com/pages/Eboost/200306283342024/
75 Volt 6 kW FUTR Beta 29'er: OFF ROAD

payder
10 µW
10 µW
Posts: 6
Joined: Feb 11, 2017 4:39 pm

Re: Kepler Friction drive comes of age.

Post by payder » Feb 26, 2017 7:52 am

Wow, this is wonderful. Vesc for the win, I guess :)

What kv is your 5065 motor?

200 kV. Good to run at 9s or 10s. It is quite long so I don't think it will fit on a standard bike and clear the left crank. The short can 63mm I think would be quiet also. Will test these next week
Last edited by payder on Feb 26, 2017 8:13 am, edited 1 time in total.

cwah
10 GW
10 GW
Posts: 4534
Joined: Jul 24, 2011 5:42 am
Location: Between paris and london

Re: Kepler Friction drive comes of age.

Post by cwah » Feb 26, 2017 7:58 am

You were always peddling, would it work for someone not doing any work? I guess u must be a good cyclist so a lot of the results must come from u :p
Help me find my stolen electric brompton: http://bit.ly/1a0vbBC and Bosch Sinus B3 http://bit.ly/1eV0WQz

User avatar
Kepler
1 GW
1 GW
Posts: 3085
Joined: Nov 08, 2009 9:22 pm
Location: Eastern suburbs Melbourne Australia

Re: Kepler Friction drive comes of age.

Post by Kepler » Feb 26, 2017 8:24 am

It's a bike assist system so pedaling is part of the deal. :) The assist is subtle but effective. Basically it gives you an extra 10kph above what you would normally ride at without assist. However It will maintain about 30kph on flat road with out pedaling just like any. other 250W drive.

Riding with the drive activated, it basically takes me to pro rider abilities. Yes I can ride OK and ride typically 200km every weekend on my unassiated road bike. With the sound before, it was pretty obvious something was going on. I recon now I am under the radar. This bike is mainly a commuter. Got a 50km round trip for the commute and do this every day if it's not raining. I am the fastest bike out their on the bike paths. Yes, it's not a free ride buts it's an easy ride. If you want to be a passenger. Forget this drive and get a big heavy hub motor. Horses for courses.
Current Rides

Lightest true ebike on the planet: ON ROAD https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... =6&t=74269
eBoost on facebook: http://www.facebook.com/pages/Eboost/200306283342024/
75 Volt 6 kW FUTR Beta 29'er: OFF ROAD

cwah
10 GW
10 GW
Posts: 4534
Joined: Jul 24, 2011 5:42 am
Location: Between paris and london

Re: Kepler Friction drive comes of age.

Post by cwah » Feb 26, 2017 11:07 am

Yes I already have a big heavy hub motor.

The good thing would be to be a passenger at 250-500w power at high efficiency.

Even at 250w, it should be enough to cruise at 25km/h, which is itself is not bad for a 1.7kg kit?

It'd probably have some buyer too?
Help me find my stolen electric brompton: http://bit.ly/1a0vbBC and Bosch Sinus B3 http://bit.ly/1eV0WQz

melodious
100 kW
100 kW
Posts: 1298
Joined: Aug 26, 2011 8:57 am
Location: East Coast, U.S.A.

Re: Kepler Friction drive comes of age.

Post by melodious » Feb 26, 2017 11:51 am

Nice. You'd prolly squeeze out a few more Km/h if you changed those flip flops to panda bear flippers.

Image

Get the biggest front chainring you can fit and up the VESC's capabilities using 10s? :P
Surly Ogre rigid 29er, rear 10T MAC @ 50V 25AH & 40A: 30mph road/gravel/hill machine
42" dual diagonal Eskateboard @6s & 90mm wheels
Next: eMTB @10-12s & 8"-12" pneumatic wheels; Got Strapped? d-(',')z

User avatar
Kepler
1 GW
1 GW
Posts: 3085
Joined: Nov 08, 2009 9:22 pm
Location: Eastern suburbs Melbourne Australia

Re: Kepler Friction drive comes of age.

Post by Kepler » Feb 26, 2017 6:56 pm

Flip Flops are the universal footwear for Aust. Thinking about getting cleats fitted to a pair :lol:
Current Rides

Lightest true ebike on the planet: ON ROAD https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... =6&t=74269
eBoost on facebook: http://www.facebook.com/pages/Eboost/200306283342024/
75 Volt 6 kW FUTR Beta 29'er: OFF ROAD

User avatar
MrDude_1
100 kW
100 kW
Posts: 1046
Joined: Aug 17, 2012 3:07 pm
Location: Charleston, SC

Re: Kepler Friction drive comes of age.

Post by MrDude_1 » Feb 27, 2017 8:26 am

Kepler wrote:a 10K pot over the 3.3V and GND with the wiper to the ADC_EXT pin? Starting to get my head around this controller i think.
yup. its that easy.
Warning:This post is being read via light, a substance known to the state of California to cause cancer.

ScooterMan101
100 kW
100 kW
Posts: 1345
Joined: Oct 06, 2012 4:45 pm
Location: South of San Jose, California.

Re: Kepler Friction drive comes of age.

Post by ScooterMan101 » Feb 27, 2017 1:53 pm

I had some SPD Sandals many years ago when I lived in a warm/hot part of California.

The Shimano's will be better Quality.

https://www.amazon.com/Shimano-SH-SD66- ... QWC53PPM7F

https://www.amazon.com/Nashbar-Ragster- ... B004UMDST4

When using SPD Sandals and Pedals, be sure to loosen the spring tension on the Pedals , to be able to get out of the Pedals , because with Sandals you do not get as much side movement leverage.

Kepler wrote:Flip Flops are the universal footwear for Aust. Thinking about getting cleats fitted to a pair :lol:
My first conversion ...

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 1#p1077497

Oh how I wish today for no more rain
Oh how I wish to ride again
Once and for all
And all for once
Cyclist my name forevermore

hemo
10 W
10 W
Posts: 68
Joined: Mar 30, 2016 5:13 pm
Location: England, GB ( UK).

Re: Kepler Friction drive comes of age.

Post by hemo » Mar 02, 2017 6:52 pm

Kudos and cap doffing to Kepler. Reworking an old idea that is working for him and maybe for a few others as well.

User avatar
Kepler
1 GW
1 GW
Posts: 3085
Joined: Nov 08, 2009 9:22 pm
Location: Eastern suburbs Melbourne Australia

Re: Kepler Friction drive comes of age.

Post by Kepler » Mar 03, 2017 4:09 am

Ok, the Vesc is now fully sorted. Figured out what the cut out issue was. You can't treat this controller like an ebike controller as there are subtle differences that will catch you out if you do.

Also have finalized the drive design and will be placing an order for the first production batch with my laser cutters on Monday. Been a long time coming and i thank all who have been patiently waiting for the drive to be available.

I will be creating a sales thread over the next day or 2 and will be in contact via Pm with all who have expressed interest in purchasing the mechanics set.

I will also be putting together 2 drive configurations for people to use to select all required items to put together an operating drive. One config will be an economy combination of parts that gives you a good operational drive for the lowest price and the other configuration will be the combination that gave me the best overall results. I will also be including an assembly manual including all my Vesc settings and information on how how to build button throttles with voltage dividers to suit both types of controllers.
Attachments
Trek.jpg
Trek.jpg (222.07 KiB) Viewed 2158 times
Current Rides

Lightest true ebike on the planet: ON ROAD https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... =6&t=74269
eBoost on facebook: http://www.facebook.com/pages/Eboost/200306283342024/
75 Volt 6 kW FUTR Beta 29'er: OFF ROAD

silviasol
10 kW
10 kW
Posts: 983
Joined: Dec 30, 2012 8:13 pm

Re: Kepler Friction drive comes of age.

Post by silviasol » Mar 03, 2017 9:19 am

Sign me up for one from the first batch please! Any link for donations?
Current project: 10s 20ah sensored goped hoverboard
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 35&t=62155

Warren
100 kW
100 kW
Posts: 1217
Joined: Oct 05, 2010 11:35 am

Re: Kepler Friction drive comes of age.

Post by Warren » Mar 03, 2017 2:55 pm

ScooterMan101,

" The Shimano's will be better Quality."

Love my Keens.

https://www.westernbikeworks.com/produc ... mc42-2.jpg

payder
10 µW
10 µW
Posts: 6
Joined: Feb 11, 2017 4:39 pm

Re: Kepler Friction drive comes of age.

Post by payder » Mar 06, 2017 3:20 pm

Hi Kepler,

how much do you think will be the mechanical motor mount part only?

Best wishes, Payder

User avatar
Kepler
1 GW
1 GW
Posts: 3085
Joined: Nov 08, 2009 9:22 pm
Location: Eastern suburbs Melbourne Australia

Re: Kepler Friction drive comes of age.

Post by Kepler » Mar 07, 2017 3:19 am

Do you mean the swingarm (attached to the motor) or the main plate (attached to the BB). Do you need a custom length?
Current Rides

Lightest true ebike on the planet: ON ROAD https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... =6&t=74269
eBoost on facebook: http://www.facebook.com/pages/Eboost/200306283342024/
75 Volt 6 kW FUTR Beta 29'er: OFF ROAD

payder
10 µW
10 µW
Posts: 6
Joined: Feb 11, 2017 4:39 pm

Re: Kepler Friction drive comes of age.

Post by payder » Mar 07, 2017 3:21 pm

Sorry, I didnt express myself very well there... :)
I wanted to know the price for your mechanical assembly without motor or anything else. Basically only the machined parts you designed.

User avatar
Kepler
1 GW
1 GW
Posts: 3085
Joined: Nov 08, 2009 9:22 pm
Location: Eastern suburbs Melbourne Australia

Re: Kepler Friction drive comes of age.

Post by Kepler » Mar 08, 2017 12:01 am

No worries. Still haven't created the sales thread so I have PM'ed you for now.
Current Rides

Lightest true ebike on the planet: ON ROAD https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... =6&t=74269
eBoost on facebook: http://www.facebook.com/pages/Eboost/200306283342024/
75 Volt 6 kW FUTR Beta 29'er: OFF ROAD

Post Reply