Number One - 11.000 Watts

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Byte   1 kW

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Number One - 11.000 Watts

Post by Byte » Dec 15 2016 3:53pm

Number One

A few years ago I build this E-bike: CLICK. The last few months I spent in CAD software working on an optimised version of this bike. My goal was to lower the centre of gravity, keep it lightweight, increase the reliability, improve the ergonomics, make it very fun to ride and – of course - make it look awesome. I came up with the idea of putting the battery packs under the frame between the pedals and the top of the front fork. I also added the electronics (throttle converter, wires, battery eliminator circuit etc.). This whole package is sandwiched between three aluminium plates. At the top of this sandwich package, there is an extra plate consisting of the main power switch, some regular switches and a voltage meter.

The very powerful brushless motor and drive unit is placed in the triangle of the frame. The drive unit includes a high ratio gearing achieved by a total of 4 sprockets, one of them is a White Industries freewheel. The motor as well as the sprockets are covered by a plastic cover. The motor is actively cooled by a small fan, this is only needed in very hot circumstances (outside temperature > 30 degrees Celcius)
Most of the parts are made of aircraft grade aluminium 6061 or aluminium 5053, making it very lightweight and very strong. The parts are custom CNC milled, waterjet cut or 3D printed out of black ABS.

A few specifications:
Bicycle: Bergamont Kiez Dirt
Motor: AlienPower 80-110 130kv brushless outrunner
ESC: Castle Creations 160HV
Battery: Lithium Polymer 10S 37V 16.000mAh
Power output: 11.000 Watts (15 horsepower)
Top speed: About 70 km/h
Frame Weight: About 15kg
Total Weight: Exactly 25kg including all components (battery, motor, wiring, custom parts etc.); all parts attached increase the weight by only 10kg!
Range: About 25-30 km without pedalling

I made a few renders of the frame including the components for all electronical and mechanical parts as you can see below. The bike should be finished and ready to drive in the first weeks of January. I will make pictures of the building process.
So, why is this bike called Number One? Because I will build a Number Two :mrgreen:

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Last edited by Byte on Feb 08 2017 3:26pm, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: Number One - 11.000 Watts

Post by Byte » Dec 18 2016 6:26am

Assembling a few parts of the drive unit.


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Re: Number One - 11.000 Watts

Post by Byte » Feb 07 2017 10:03am

I completely assembled the drive unit. I also started assembly the battery box and electronics. The batteries are a very tight fit. It all feels very sturdy and it is very compact. The battery box is small and because it is underneath the frame, it keeps the COG very low. I think this is an almost perfect E-bike build: lightweight, very powerful, compact and robust.
I still need to clean up some wiring, to make it all look very clean. Also the chain protectors made from plastic are still missing. The total weight of the bike is exactly 25kg, which is awesome ofcourse! :D

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I am waiting for the sun to come, so I can make a test ride. It's raining today and probably also the next few days...

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Re: Number One - 11.000 Watts

Post by Ianhill » Feb 07 2017 11:06am

That's a very nice build you have there, The voltage gauge is the only thing I'd swap to something with a watthour like the MHF-120300, it has memory so it remembers previous state of charge its easy to calibrate by holding clear button for three seconds, its bi directional so charging through the unit shows overall pack voltage charging progress, it controls a 12v external relay if added, i use it to turn my controller on and off to control lvc but with a 12v contactor it could protect the pack directly its a cracking buy for the price. It runs in wireless mode so one gauge could pair through bluetooth up to many shunts or with a USB that sends the data and powers the display so wired that's how mine is setup.

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Re: Number One - 11.000 Watts

Post by WoodlandHills » Feb 07 2017 12:23pm

Does the front tire contact the controller at full compression? Will you be running a fender to keep water and road debris from being thrown onto the battery and controller?

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Re: Number One - 11.000 Watts

Post by spinningmagnets » Feb 08 2017 10:06am


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Re: Number One - 11.000 Watts

Post by Byte » Feb 08 2017 2:09pm

Ianhill wrote:That's a very nice build you have there, The voltage gauge is the only thing I'd swap to something with a watthour like the MHF-120300, it has memory so it remembers previous state of charge its easy to calibrate by holding clear button for three seconds, its bi directional so charging through the unit shows overall pack voltage charging progress, it controls a 12v external relay if added, i use it to turn my controller on and off to control lvc but with a 12v contactor it could protect the pack directly its a cracking buy for the price. It runs in wireless mode so one gauge could pair through bluetooth up to many shunts or with a USB that sends the data and powers the display so wired that's how mine is setup.
Could you tell me where you bought this? I googled on MHF-120300 but I can't find anything. I'm interested in the specs.
WoodlandHills wrote:Does the front tire contact the controller at full compression? Will you be running a fender to keep water and road debris from being thrown onto the battery and controller?
The tire doesn't contact the controller. The space is minimal as you mention, but it fits. I won't use a fender as I will only use it in dry weather. However I will have to cover the controller for small rocks, I might use something like a netting for that.


I did a quick test ride today, it was very cold but dry. This bike is near to perfect; it's very lightweight, handles great (and by that I mean really great!) because of its low center of gravity and is fun to drive! Because of the cold weather (0 degree Celcius) the voltage dropped very hard even at low accelerating runs, this could damage the battery. So I only did a few top speed runs, no hard accelerating, it all feels very solid. Two more pictures:

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Re: Number One - 11.000 Watts

Post by Ianhill » Feb 08 2017 2:48pm


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Re: Number One - 11.000 Watts

Post by mexicanhanu » Mar 01 2017 10:54pm

Hey man awesome build. I love this build. I have been wanting to build a mid drive ebike for quite a while and have two questions

1. How much did this build cost you? Specifically how much did the cnc cost you? Also where did you get the 80-110 alien motor? I don't see them on their website anymore.

2. Is there a specific reason why the motor is geared lower twice? (gear -> hub(?) -> rear sprocket) does it need that much torque?

3. Going off question 1. is the 3 point bolt on for the motor mount strong enough to withstand the motor's torque?

4. Any advice for people wanting to start mid drive bikes? My current goal is to make something similar (around 7kw, lithium ion batterypack(probably 12s), directdrive with crank freewheel to have regen braking). However I am concerned with a budget (hoping less than $2000(1800 euro I believe)).

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Re: Number One - 11.000 Watts

Post by Ecyclist » Mar 02 2017 5:03am

Very cool build. I also like Alien motors and hope to use one once I get it.
Can you tell me why you didn't use the Alien controller?
Last edited by Ecyclist on Mar 02 2017 11:48am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Number One - 11.000 Watts

Post by Wheazel » Mar 02 2017 10:26am

Nice project, but with such fabrication possibilities and skills, I ask myself why keep the frame as is?
You are putting a lot of effort into this, and it seems logical to me to go over the complete solution,
and not be limited to complicated work-arounds and compromises originating from how the frame is shaped.

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Re: Number One - 11.000 Watts

Post by Ecyclist » Mar 02 2017 12:04pm

Wheazel wrote:Nice project, but with such fabrication possibilities and skills, I ask myself why keep the frame as is?
You are putting a lot of effort into this, and it seems logical to me to go over the complete solution,
and not be limited to complicated work-arounds and compromises originating from how the frame is shaped.
Maybe, because he doesn't want to cut his nice bike and weld. I don't see a single weld bead in his mechanical build.
Structural design and mechanical design are two different animals.
Maybe, he is going to do it on Number Two.
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Re: Number One - 11.000 Watts

Post by Chalo » Mar 02 2017 2:22pm

Wheazel wrote:Nice project, but with such fabrication possibilities and skills, I ask myself why keep the frame as is?
A commodity frame is a replaceable part, until you modify it.

Aluminum like the alloy in the OP's frame drops in strength by 75% to 80% when it's welded without further heat treatment.
This is to express my gratitude to Justin of Grin Technologies for his extraordinary measures to save this forum for the benefit of all.

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Re: Number One - 11.000 Watts

Post by Ecyclist » Mar 04 2017 12:02pm

Chalo wrote:
Wheazel wrote:Nice project, but with such fabrication possibilities and skills, I ask myself why keep the frame as is?
A commodity frame is a replaceable part, until you modify it.

Aluminum, like the alloy in the OP's frame, drops in strength by 75% to 80% when it's welded without further heat treatment.
I don't know about 75-80%, but cutting the frame and welding it will produce a weak point right next to the weld. Adding a battery to the load will not help either.
Don't expect from life to be easy and then it will be.
My builds:
Avian with hypocycloidal drive https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 2#p1318056
2016 GNG extreme drive https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 28&t=82252

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Re: Number One - 11.000 Watts

Post by LockH » Mar 04 2017 1:06pm

(Canadian here) LOVE the "Dutch" (the Netherlands)! ... and re "ebikes", in 2012 yer Fietsberaad reported ONE MILLION "EPACs" on your roads (aka vastly superior bicycle infrastructure)...

BUT, not much hills to speak of? (I gather that winds off the Atlantic can be a "bitch" as headwinds.)

So. Given that any "Olympic-class" human can pedal "fast" consuming ... per Wiki:
On firm, flat ground, a 70 kg (150 lb) person requires about 60 watts to walk at 5 km/h (3.1 mph). That same person on a bicycle, on the same ground, with the same power output, can travel at 15 km/h (9.3 mph) using an ordinary bicycle, so in these conditions the energy expenditure of cycling is one-third of walking.

WATTS UP with "11,000 Watts"?

Just curious... Tks

(PS. Reasons for liking the Dutch include boats and trade ("business") but also windmills and dykes. :) )
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Re: Number One - 11.000 Watts

Post by John in CR » Mar 04 2017 10:02pm

LockH wrote:WATTS UP with "11,000 Watts"?
Even though that's 11kw of peak power input (maybe 6-7kw output), the usefulness of such power is all in the acceleration. Since you're asking that question, you obviously haven't experienced it, and it's something you really should treat yourself to sometime. My favorite explanation is that a high powered ebike is like an amusement park ride with no line for pennies a ride. :mrgreen:

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Re: Number One - 11.000 Watts

Post by Byte » Mar 07 2017 2:53pm

mexicanhanu wrote:Hey man awesome build. I love this build. I have been wanting to build a mid drive ebike for quite a while and have two questions

1. How much did this build cost you? Specifically how much did the cnc cost you? Also where did you get the 80-110 alien motor? I don't see them on their website anymore.

2. Is there a specific reason why the motor is geared lower twice? (gear -> hub(?) -> rear sprocket) does it need that much torque?

3. Going off question 1. is the 3 point bolt on for the motor mount strong enough to withstand the motor's torque?

4. Any advice for people wanting to start mid drive bikes? My current goal is to make something similar (around 7kw, lithium ion batterypack(probably 12s), directdrive with crank freewheel to have regen braking). However I am concerned with a budget (hoping less than $2000(1800 euro I believe)).

Thank you.

1. It's hard to tell how much the build costed me. Before this one, I built two 'prototypes' which also costed a lot of money, but building these gave me a lot of knowledge and experience. If I have to make a rough guess, all parts I made and all things I tried and didn't work costed me more than €3500,-. However, in the beginning I burnt two ESC's costing about €500-600 in total because I was not experienced enough. Doing a lot of research (and by that I really mean A LOT) and having an engineering background will reduce the costs. (At this point, I am almost done with my study Mechanical Engineering. When I first started building E-bike's I didn't even start the study and I didn't know much about engineering) Sorry, the motor is actually called a 80-100, but the length is 110mm. You can find it here: http://alienpowersystem.com/shop/brushl ... 0kv-7000w/

2. The double gearing is indeed needed because of the total reduction. The motor has 130kv, at 37 volts nominal this is about 4800 RPM. This RPM has to be reduced by a lot at the wheel.

3. What do you mean by the 3 point bolt exactly?

4. Yes, do a lot of research. Read through forums a lot. This will help you in designing your bike and keep the costs down because you will make less mistakes. You will have to put a lot of effort in it before you have a reliable bike. I think €1800 would be possible if you buy a cheap second hand bicycle. Remember that RC ESC's don't like regenerative current, you either have to use a freewheel or use another controller. (I think a Kelly controller or something like that, there's lot of info on the forum)
Ecyclist wrote:Very cool build. I also like Alien motors and hope to use one once I get it.
Can you tell me why you didn't use the Alien controller?
I did try the Alien controllers but I always had problems with them. Mostly problems concerning programming.
Wheazel wrote:Nice project, but with such fabrication possibilities and skills, I ask myself why keep the frame as is?
You are putting a lot of effort into this, and it seems logical to me to go over the complete solution,
and not be limited to complicated work-arounds and compromises originating from how the frame is shaped.
I did think about that. But Ecyclist is right, welding is a special kind of engineering. I also don't have much experience with welding and don't have a cheap source to do it. Another reason is that I don't want to modify the frame at all, it should be use able as a normal bike in the future.
The plan is to build another bike after this one, I am still considering building my own frame for that one but not sure on that.
LockH wrote:(Canadian here) LOVE the "Dutch" (the Netherlands)! ... and re "ebikes", in 2012 yer Fietsberaad reported ONE MILLION "EPACs" on your roads (aka vastly superior bicycle infrastructure)...

BUT, not much hills to speak of? (I gather that winds off the Atlantic can be a "bitch" as headwinds.)

So. Given that any "Olympic-class" human can pedal "fast" consuming ... per Wiki:
On firm, flat ground, a 70 kg (150 lb) person requires about 60 watts to walk at 5 km/h (3.1 mph). That same person on a bicycle, on the same ground, with the same power output, can travel at 15 km/h (9.3 mph) using an ordinary bicycle, so in these conditions the energy expenditure of cycling is one-third of walking.

WATTS UP with "11,000 Watts"?

Just curious... Tks

(PS. Reasons for liking the Dutch include boats and trade ("business") but also windmills and dykes. :) )
Hahaha :mrgreen: Not much hills, you're right! I travel by bicycle everyday (not an electric one) and the headwinds are a bitch!.

I think JOHN in CR described it perfectly. It's such a blast and gives a huge smile on my face when I ride it, every single time. It is awesome to have so much power in such a lightweight package. Did you ever driven a high powered car? You could compare it with that. The only differences are:
- A high powered car makes a beautiful sound, my bike doesn't unfortunately
- A car is heavy as shit, this bike is ultra lightweight which makes the fun factor very big
- A car is expensive to drive, this bike costs almost nothing in energy costs or maintenance


Somebody also asked me to write about the reduction of the bike. The primary reduction consists of two carbon steel #25 sprockets, the small sprocket is 14T, the big one 54T. Making a first gearing ratio of 1:3,85. The big sprocket is mounted on a 1/2" case hardened shaft and supported by two ball bearings. On the other side of the shaft is an adapter mounted for the White Industries freewheel which is 16T. From here to the back I used a very strong Connex 1G8 chain to handle all the forces going through this reduction stage. The last sprocket is also mounted on an adapter (both adapters from Recumpence/Matt) which is 39T. The total reduction ratio is 1:9.4 which gives me a approximate top speed of about 65 km/h - 40 mph.

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Oh, I am very busy with my graduation/school and I still haven't worked on the plastic gearing/motor cover and wiring case. I hope I can do this this weekend. I ordered a camera mount to make a few video's as the weather is getting better and better :)

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Re: Number One - 11.000 Watts

Post by Chalo » Mar 07 2017 4:41pm

Byte wrote:- A high powered car makes a beautiful sound,
Not. It's literally the sound of farting, only much louder and toxic. I hope I live to see the day when people in cities never have to hear it.
This is to express my gratitude to Justin of Grin Technologies for his extraordinary measures to save this forum for the benefit of all.

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Re: Number One - 11.000 Watts

Post by 2old » Mar 07 2017 5:21pm

Chalo wrote:
Wheazel wrote:Nice project, but with such fabrication possibilities and skills, I ask myself why keep the frame as is?
A commodity frame is a replaceable part, until you modify it.

Aluminum like the alloy in the OP's frame drops in strength by 75% to 80% when it's welded without further heat treatment.
Does it gain strength by "aging" at room temperature over time?

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Re: Number One - 11.000 Watts

Post by Wheazel » Mar 07 2017 6:21pm

No it will need heat treatment. Personally i dont think that is something to make a problem. Should exist some kind of heat treatment company in every other town. And with aluminum you dont need that high temps.

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Re: Number One - 11.000 Watts

Post by Byte » Mar 08 2017 1:32pm

Wheazel wrote:No it will need heat treatment. Personally i dont think that is something to make a problem. Should exist some kind of heat treatment company in every other town. And with aluminum you dont need that high temps.
You're right. But I think it will be pretty expensive to design a frame and weld it by a professional welder and also do the heat treatment. I might build an own frame for my next build, I have been playing with ideas in my head which are similar to the "divergent blade". It's a car chassis made out of super lightweight carbon rods and 3D printed aluminium.

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Re: Number One - 11.000 Watts

Post by Ecyclist » Mar 09 2017 12:02am

Would you care to tell us more about your problems with Alien controllers?
Is the housing of 80100 motor 110 mm long, or part of the shaft is included in that dimension?
I just ordered, about one week ago, C80100 Sensored Outrunner brushless motor 80KV 6000W with Alien 200A 3-16S Evolution 3 ESC HV-Sensored controller and now I wonder if that motor will fit in my set-up. I have very little room to fit it and 10 mm longer can make a big difference.
Don't expect from life to be easy and then it will be.
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Avian with hypocycloidal drive https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 2#p1318056
2016 GNG extreme drive https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 28&t=82252

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Re: Number One - 11.000 Watts

Post by mexicanhanu » Mar 09 2017 9:42am

Byte wrote:
3. What do you mean by the 3 point bolt exactly?
So what I meant by the 3 point bolt is shown in the picture. Is that 3 "clamp" strong enough to withstand the torque of the motor?

Image

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Re: Number One - 11.000 Watts

Post by Byte » Mar 10 2017 1:30pm

Ecyclist wrote:Would you care to tell us more about your problems with Alien controllers?
Is the housing of 80100 motor 110 mm long, or part of the shaft is included in that dimension?
I just ordered, about one week ago, C80100 Sensored Outrunner brushless motor 80KV 6000W with Alien 200A 3-16S Evolution 3 ESC HV-Sensored controller and now I wonder if that motor will fit in my set-up. I have very little room to fit it and 10 mm longer can make a big difference.
I think I had 2 of them, both having programming problems. The biggest problem for me was that sometimes the ESC went full throttle out of nothing. Luckily this only happened with the wheel in the air. It might be due to faulty sensors in the motor itself, but I really have no clue.

Original it was a 80-100 motor, 80mm in diameter, 100mm length. However, the one from Alien is a sensored version, because of this it's about 10mm longer. I measured it myself and put it in my CAD files, so the measurement of the length and angle at the backside aren't 100% correct. (Could be a little less than 10mm) Notice I cut the shaft off myself.

Image

Please let me know how your experience with the Alien controller will be. I'm very curious. I have to mention that Bruno (owner at Alien) is very good to his customers and always tries to help as best as he can.
mexicanhanu wrote:
Byte wrote:
3. What do you mean by the 3 point bolt exactly?
So what I meant by the 3 point bolt is shown in the picture. Is that 3 "clamp" strong enough to withstand the torque of the motor?
I think this 3 point clamp is very strong. In the past I had a 2 point clamp on only one tube of the frame (it could rotate around the frame tube in theory) and even that was strong enough for all the forces.

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Re: Number One - 11.000 Watts

Post by Ecyclist » Mar 10 2017 9:19pm

Byte wrote:
Ecyclist wrote:Would you care to tell us more about your problems with Alien controllers?
Is the housing of 80100 motor 110 mm long, or part of the shaft is included in that dimension?
I just ordered, about one week ago, C80100 Sensored Outrunner brushless motor 80KV 6000W with Alien 200A 3-16S Evolution 3 ESC HV-Sensored controller and now I wonder if that motor will fit in my set-up. I have very little room to fit it and 10 mm longer can make a big difference.
I think I had 2 of them, both having programming problems. The biggest problem for me was that sometimes the ESC went full throttle out of nothing. Luckily this only happened with the wheel in the air. It might be due to faulty sensors in the motor itself, but I really have no clue.

Original it was a 80-100 motor, 80mm in diameter, 100mm length. However, the one from Alien is a sensored version, because of this it's about 10mm longer. I measured it myself and put it in my CAD files, so the measurement of the length and angle at the backside aren't 100% correct. (Could be a little less than 10mm) Notice I cut the shaft off myself.

Image

Please let me know how your experience with the Alien controller will be. I'm very curious. I have to mention that Bruno (owner at Alien) is very good to his customers and always tries to help as best as he can.
mexicanhanu wrote:
Byte wrote:
3. What do you mean by the 3 point bolt exactly?
So what I meant by the 3 point bolt is shown in the picture. Is that 3 "clamp" strong enough to withstand the torque of the motor?
I think this 3 point clamp is very strong. In the past I had a 2 point clamp on only one tube of the frame (it could rotate around the frame tube in theory) and even that was strong enough for all the forces.
Thank you for info and a cool drawing. It looks like it will be a tight squeeze to fit that motor into my design.
So far, almost everything I ordered is out of stock, but according to Bruno he will be getting new delivery by mid March. So hopefully I will be getting my toys in a couple of weeks. Once I do, I will hook it all up and I will let you know about my experience.
Speaking of hooking it all up, do I assume correctly that because you use the Castle controller you are running your motor sensorless?
Are you happy with the start up, running it without hall sensors?
You have a very streamlined setup, and I wonder what throttle you have and how you connected the throttle to the Castle controller?
Did you use Alien interface, and if so, was it difficult to hook it up?
Good luck with your project. You should be proud of what you've done so far.
Don't expect from life to be easy and then it will be.
My builds:
Avian with hypocycloidal drive https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 2#p1318056
2016 GNG extreme drive https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 28&t=82252

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