Why haven't the Vivax (Cheating tech) been cloned? Patents?

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azneinstein   100 mW

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Why haven't the Vivax (Cheating tech) been cloned? Patents?

Post by azneinstein » Feb 18 2017 1:07pm

I know this might sound dumb but I'm curious why nobody, including the Chinese, have tried creating a Vivax clone or copy yet?

I mean, if we're talking about a technology that is lightweight- race proven- stealthy- very low/centered weight- can use the entire drivetrain... I can only think that it might not be meant for long term use but hell, if GNG or somebody made something similar, damn I'd be on board, especially since it looks like it can work on a carbon road bike with skinnier tires. That'd just mean the battery can be lighter and fast as frock.

WoodlandHills   10 kW

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Re: Why haven't the Vivax (Cheating tech) been cloned? Paten

Post by WoodlandHills » Feb 18 2017 1:11pm

Probably because they make tiny amounts of power, but cost enormous amounts of $....... Too small a market to lure a knock-off mfg and too sketchy for a major mfg to be associated. Better to build and sell more powerful stuff for less money that looks like an ebike so that they cannot be accused of enabling cheaters.

Every Lance Armstrong model sold by a major mfg would probably result in the loss of several sales of non-cheater specials as the word got around that they were selling bikes designed for cheating (what other reason is there for a low power hidden motor?).

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spinningmagnets   100 GW

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Re: Why haven't the Vivax (Cheating tech) been cloned? Paten

Post by spinningmagnets » Feb 18 2017 1:24pm

I am certain it has been cloned, and...the clone merchants are not advertising to the general public. Apparently, there is a lot of money in hidden drives...

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Chalo   100 GW

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Re: Why haven't the Vivax (Cheating tech) been cloned? Paten

Post by Chalo » Feb 18 2017 2:07pm

Such inside the frame motors will always be limited in power because of size and heat management limitations, and they'll always be expensive because applicable bevel gears have to be very precise.

The market for e-bike motors mostly seems to be saying they want their stuff cheap and powerful.
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Matador   10 kW

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Re: Why haven't the Vivax (Cheating tech) been cloned? Paten

Post by Matador » Feb 18 2017 3:55pm

WoodlandHills wrote:in the loss of several sales of non-cheater specials as the word got around that they were selling bikes designed for cheating (what other reason is there for a low power hidden motor?).
Escapîng NYC police, since eBikes are illegal in NYC... Ig NYC police catches you with an eBike, they seize it AND give you a 1000 USD fine... Personally I'd love a chinese knock off the vivax... I'd just put a large enough battery in my backpack to stay invisible (rather than just stealty) while having enough power to cruise at 20-25 mph... But as is, the Gruber/Vivax is not powerfull enough with it's 110W of mechanical power output..

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Re: Why haven't the Vivax (Cheating tech) been cloned? Paten

Post by LewTwo » Feb 19 2017 5:26am

Matador wrote:Escapîng NYC police, since eBikes are illegal in NYC... Ig NYC police catches you with an eBike, they seize it AND give you a 1000 USD fine....
I have been to NYC a couple of times. Frankly with their traffic problems, I can not understand why they are not pushing people to swap their cars for e-bikes.
The more I learn the more obvious the immensity of my ignorance becomes.
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azneinstein   100 mW

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Re: Why haven't the Vivax (Cheating tech) been cloned? Paten

Post by azneinstein » Feb 19 2017 1:41pm

I have been to NYC a couple of times. Frankly with their traffic problems, I can not understand why they are not pushing people to swap their cars for e-bikes.
So in San Diego, there were proposed plans to finally build this huge dedicated North/South Bike lane but was debated because some planners started arguing that what if we're not a "bike city," and that building bike lanes would help get people biking but building extra car lane would actually solve more congestion problems. I'm not saying he's right but I think we need to consider the whole picture as well cause non-cyclists are not just going to suddenly hop on a bike.

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Re: Why haven't the Vivax (Cheating tech) been cloned? Paten

Post by WoodlandHills » Feb 19 2017 2:46pm

Until Climate Change was exposed as a Chinese plot the Kyoto Accords were strict enough to require a size able portion of all current ICE vehicle trips to be replaced with zero emission trips. That was going to mean more promotion of and incentives for electric vehicles of all sorts starting with civil servants/municipal employees and trickling down to regular folks. It does not look like this is operative anymore, or at least for the next four years at a minimum.......

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Chalo   100 GW

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Re: Why haven't the Vivax (Cheating tech) been cloned? Paten

Post by Chalo » Feb 19 2017 3:02pm

WoodlandHills wrote:Until Climate Change was exposed as a Chinese plot
What in Sam Hill are you smoking? I've been reading about this stuff for more than forty years. The Chinese in the '70s were concerned with more immediately pressing matters.
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Re: Why haven't the Vivax (Cheating tech) been cloned? Paten

Post by WoodlandHills » Feb 19 2017 4:15pm

I heard all about it at the Trump rally yesterday........ He was also pretty adamant about this during the campaign and since he won by the biggest margin of any President since Reagan it must be true now. I am pretty sure that Kelleyanne explained all of this several times in the last few months: it's not my fault you get your information from watching fake news....

Today I've been smoking Jack Herrer, a Sativa, since I am going to go riding in a few minutes...... :P the Indica gets saved for after dark. :wink:

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Chalo   100 GW

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Re: Why haven't the Vivax (Cheating tech) been cloned? Paten

Post by Chalo » Feb 19 2017 4:27pm

OK, I see what you did there. I was late, but I got there.
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Re: Why haven't the Vivax (Cheating tech) been cloned? Paten

Post by markz » Feb 19 2017 5:04pm

azneinstein wrote:.
I have to ask why you are asking these questions because I doubt you are a Lycra racer. My conclusion is you want ultra stealthy either to hide from the popo, or its the great human characteristic of ego. Stealthiness to hide from donut eating, power hungry...... pigs is actually quite easy to accomplish with rear hub motors. I don't have to go through what to do to hide it. My ASSumption is you would like to puff out your chest, and pee a little further then all the others, then claim to all who care................... look at me and my feet of physical strength and stamina. That is my guess, but hey I could be wrong and you are just pondering "why"

Going back to the NYC question. I'd say you have multiple pig types
1) walking the beat - Legitimate - Can they run fast enough to catch up with you
2) riding a motorcycle - Legitimate - In NYC traffic, very plausible but would they care, perhaps
3) driving vehicle - Legitimate - In NYC hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
4) using a bicycle - Legitimate - Very plausible and the only legitimate means of pursuit, seizure, fines
5) flying a helicopter - Yaaa Noooo
6) drones - This can be thrown out because its highly unlikely that they care, or are using a drone.
7) using camera's - This can be tossed unless you committed a felony.

So we got Walker, Motorcycle, Bicycle.
A smart person knowing the law will not give up so easily. Maybe a few would be scared to run because of their conscience, they wouldnt know what to say if they ever got caught. Its quite simple really, I did not see you, I did not hear you. If they were right in front of you, then you need a better story.

NYC is a unique case.

azneinstein   100 mW

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Re: Why haven't the Vivax (Cheating tech) been cloned? Paten

Post by azneinstein » Feb 19 2017 5:21pm

I'm not a lycra racer, but though I'm still new to e-bikes, I've been a cyclist for a while now and it's more of- as I slowly built up my first ebike, my ambitions slowly got lowered as battery fitment/weight, a whole multitude of problems arose.

Whereas all the most exciting builds lean towards lightweight/high power but then you have to go full suspension, moto tires, etc... One of the fastest bikes I've ridden was a roadbike with a bafang middrive- if I'm correct, the person that owned it said he did have it on his carbon bike but it flexed alot when torque-ing down for power. The only other "good and light" alternative would then be a Kepler/tiny friction.

The vivax has been on carbon bikes now, and even with the modest <200w, if I can run sub 1500g race wheels on a electric bike, with a total bike weight of probably less than <25lbs, who wouldn't want one?

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Re: Why haven't the Vivax (Cheating tech) been cloned? Paten

Post by markz » Feb 19 2017 7:38pm

What do you want out of your ebike?

Seems to me you are yo-yo'ing. 1st post about 'in-tube' frame motor...... for stealth, or plain interest. Then moving to your last post of now wanting or are interested in light-weight AND high power. I would suggest just to get a plain jane setup, have fun, get around..... then start building up your dream machine. Otherwise if you bite off more then you can chew, then you will have a pile of ebike stuff and lose interest or motivation to finish. I have been there.

What is the purpose of your original post? Wanting to know about if its been cloned, sure probably/maybe its been cloned but its not cheap. Its a niche market, very small. Is it something you are interested in for your bike? A wimpy 200W in-tube bike frame motor along with battery, controller. I doubt you are interested in it because you are not a Lycra roadie who feels the need to deceive people for ego's sake. So you wanted opinions of this and you got lots.

Maybe you should start a new thread talking about what you want or what you desire out of your own ebike build. Do you already have a build thread? What problems are you having? Can we help?

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