New recumbent QUAD build (OEM project)......

Discussions related to motors other than hub motors.
This includes R/C motors, botttom bracket, roller and geared drives.
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New recumbent QUAD build (OEM project)......

Post by recumpence » Mar 17, 2017 8:05 pm

Hello All!

Here is the newest build. This is an Outrider USA full suspension chassis "Kit".

There is a back story to my relationship with the guys at Outrider. It all started 8 years ago when I was just starting on my drive system journey (designing and manufacturing my early Astro drive units). Tom from Outrider was one of my earliest customers. He helped me debug my drives and we worked together to refine the drive for the original KMX Typhoon chassis. Over the years, they grew and began building their own drive units using a planetary gear box and their own chassis. They build their own proprietary battery system, BMS, and Delta/Wye switching [smart] board. We have maintained a good relationship over these years and we openly share proprietary [top-secret] information and specs with each other in a climate of trust and respect.

A few months ago we began toying with the idea of taking one of their chassis in a different direction. The first item was to install one of my latest generation drive units. This will roughly double the power versus a standard drive unit. I will, also, be installing high C rate Lipo cells in place of the 18650 cells Outrider normally uses. This increases the output drastically. The 18650 cells are plenty for the drive that is typically used on the Outrider trikes. However, increasing the motor current necessitates higher discharge cells. I will be installing 80 to 120ah of 12S Multistar Lipo. Now for the FUN part....... As you can probably tell by the pictures and the description, I am also developing a quad rear end. :mrgreen: The rear end will be a straight axle unit very similar to the rear end of an ATV (simple swingarm with a long axle and no differential). This is being done because this quad is designed for off-road use only. Therefore, a complicated differential is not needed, or wanted.

Lastly, this build is to evaluate the feaseability of Outrider offering a chassis kit for normal resale. Right now, you must buy an entire completed turn-key trike.

Now, onto the description of the Outrider chassis "Kit".

The first thing I must say is WOW! This thing is phenominally designed. I cannot stress that enough. The flat parts are all CNC laser cut and TIG welded together. The chassis is chromoly where extreme strength is needed and aluminum where a bit less strength is required, but saving weight is more important.

Outrider has moved away from the typical bicycle type design in that this chassis has been designed from the ground up without any preconceived "Bicycle" mindset. They describe their products as "Light weight adventure vehicles" and that is a perfect description for this system. What jumps out immediately is the purpose built aspect of every single item. Typical bicycle parts are too weak for super high stress like this vehicle will encounter, and motorcycle parts are far too heavy. So, this chassis falls right between; it is crazy strong (I mean EXTREMELY strong!) compared to normal bicycle type trike systems, yet it is far lighter than motorcycle type parts would be. This is a truly unique [one-of-a-kind] design.

You can see the components included in the kit layed out on the floor. The massive number if individual parts in this system is truly remarkable. I know many people complain that Outrider vehicles are costly. But, when you see the number of proprietary parts in each kit, the high quality components, the phenominal design, and the quality of the build as a whole (welding, machining, anodizing, powder-coating, etc), it becomes obvious where that financial investment goes. The suspension uses high quality ball joints, bearings, and bushings. The chromoly and aluminum welding is of the highest level. The powder-coat is a thick wrinkle coating that is crazy durable and looks phenomenal. Everything is just so well thought out, I am struggling to find anything that needs improvement.

There are so many details to highlight that I hardly know where to begin. In fact, many of the details will never be seen. For instance, you can see the front bulkhead on the monocoque has laser cut hex holes in it to capture the front suspension arm pivot bolt heads. This allows tensioning those bolts without the hidden bolt heads rotating. Fantasticly well thought out! That is just one minor detail. There are many, MANY more...... Geeze, I could start an entire thread on the seat, alone. It is light, strong, and vented for back cooling. The front suspension is so well thougth out..... There are rubber bump stops at each front wheel. The camber is adjustable. There is a sway bar on the front end. The steering is indirect with redundant linkages running from the tiller yoke to the billet aluminum, ball bearing pivoted steering belcrank. I could go on, and on, and on...... It is too much to describe everything that impresses me about this chassis. Oh, one MAJOR thing to mention is the attention to detail on the under side of the chassis. The bottom of the monocoque is an aluminum cover using MANY screws for strength. But, there is a plastic doubler as a glide [skid] plate as well as a laser cut, powder-coated, chromoly bash guard for the front edge of the box to handle rock snags in that vulnerable area. Did I mention every cover is rubber gasketed? AWESOME! If you look inside the monocoque, it is a feast for the eyes. The lazer cut parts are folded like origami and TIG welded. The guys have a sense of humor too. If you look closely, you will notice tiny smiley faces on the inside dividers. :D What a fun [and completely useless] detail that no-one will ever see. But, it is great to see such fun being had by the guys at the factory.

Outrider supplied the kit as shown (other than the rims). I am supplying the pack, motor, reduction unit, charger, and designing quad rear end. The rims in the picture are my own 47mm wide, 20 inch, double wall, aluminum Jetset rims (36 hole). I will be testing 20 inch wheels in back and 26 inch fat tire (4 inch wide) rears. The fronts will remain 2.2 inch wide 20 inchers. Oh, I plan on making a rear rack similar to a pickup bed between the rear wheels.

Anyway, I am sure I will think of other things to mention. But, for now, I will let you guys ask whatever questions you want answered.

Matt
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Last edited by recumpence on Apr 09, 2017 6:24 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: New QUAD build (OEM project)......

Post by Fastest1 » Mar 17, 2017 9:45 pm

Well this ought to be interesting! I agree on the parts. They look well thought out and durable. The rear swingarm pivot almost appears like 2 hubs welded in.
So maybe independent suspension in the rear and all wheel drive? ;-)

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Re: New QUAD build (OEM project)......

Post by ions82 » Mar 17, 2017 10:39 pm

Looks like the beginnings of an awesome velocipede. If Mr. Shumaker is involved, you can bet it's going to be an impressive machine. Can't wait to see this thing in action.

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Re: New QUAD build (OEM project)......

Post by flat tire » Mar 17, 2017 10:56 pm

OK, I get that that probably says something else, but it really looks like "CLITRIDER" and lol :D

Anyway in spite of that (or maybe because of it) your project looks pretty sick and I'm quite interested to see what happens. Will there be any camber?

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Re: New QUAD build (OEM project)......

Post by recumpence » Mar 17, 2017 11:06 pm

flat tire wrote:OK, I get that that probably says something else, but it really looks like "CLITRIDER" and lol :D

Anyway in spite of that (or maybe because of it) your project looks pretty sick and I'm quite interested to see what happens. Will there be any camber?
I plan to start with zero camber and make changes from there.
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Re: New QUAD build (OEM project)......

Post by liveforphysics » Mar 18, 2017 5:17 am

Looks like fun Matt! Nice work as usual!
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Re: New QUAD build (OEM project)......

Post by Rube » Mar 18, 2017 5:32 am

Great write up and a super cool OEM to work with. Thanks for all the detailed photos of the chassis.

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Re: New QUAD build (OEM project)......

Post by recumpence » Mar 18, 2017 9:35 am

I don't mean to sound like a fanboy on this chassis, but, the more I reverse engineer it, the more impressed I am.

A few things to point out;

As I mentioned in my original post, the front suspension utilizes a swaybar. The box is very well internally gussetted. The suspension is chromoly using ball joints, ball bearings, and adjustable bushings. Everything is adjustable. I love it.....

Now, as for the drive system; the pack will be 12S with 80 to 120ah. The motor is a Astro Flight 3220. I plan on trying a 4 turn and a 3 turn on it. The reduction unit, itself, will be three stages from the motor to the wheel. There will be a 5mm pitch belt to a jackshaft, then the second stage will use a #35 chain. Then it will run a BMX chain to the rear wheel. The pedal chain and the electric drive chain will each be freewheeled at the rear axle, one freewheel for the pedal side and one freewheel to the electric side. There will be a single brake disc on the rear axle, similar to a single axle ATV rear end.

As I build the quad, I will post detailed pictures of each aspect as it comes together.

Matt
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Re: New QUAD build (OEM project)......

Post by waynebergman » Mar 18, 2017 11:52 pm

Super cool Mat. Are you thinking this unit will be able to pull wheelies?

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Re: New QUAD build (OEM project)......

Post by litespeed » Mar 19, 2017 10:22 am

I just wonder how long tires will last fish tailing in off road conditions.

This will be one of my favorite builds I know because I've been an off roader all of my life. Kinda Honda Pilot-ish.

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Re: New QUAD build (OEM project)......

Post by recumpence » Mar 19, 2017 1:25 pm

waynebergman wrote:Super cool Mat. Are you thinking this unit will be able to pull wheelies?
Well, that is not the intent of this build. I can tell you that my intention is to try a couple different drive systems, one of which is a twin motor. I still do not think it will have that much power to lift the front end.
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Re: New QUAD build (OEM project)......

Post by recumpence » Mar 19, 2017 1:27 pm

litespeed wrote:I just wonder how long tires will last fish tailing in off road conditions.

This will be one of my favorite builds I know because I've been an off roader all of my life. Kinda Honda Pilot-ish.

Tom
Off road is easier on tires than sliding on pavement. :wink:

I am really looking forward to this build. I have wanted a full suspension off road recumbent bike for a long time now.
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Re: New recumbent QUAD build (OEM project)......

Post by Mongo1 » Mar 20, 2017 2:14 pm

Looking forward to this build, Matt!! :D

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Re: New recumbent QUAD build (OEM project)......

Post by recumpence » Mar 23, 2017 2:33 pm

Okay, slight change of plan! Tom from Outrider and myself have been discussing this project at length and we have decided to move forward with Phase 2 of the project right off the bat. That is, I will be widening the track and increase ground clearance and travel of this chassis. The width will be increased roughly 12 to 16 inches depending on front suspension clearance or potential interference issues. Also, the wheels shown in the image above will not be used. I will be using 3 inch wide 20 inch diameter wheels and tires. I will also test those three inch wide 20 inch diameter wheels and tires on the front with 4 inch wide 26 inch diameter wheels at the rear. So, this vehicle will have fat tires, a wider stance, higher ground clearance, and much greater suspension travel! I'm excited about this! Outrider USA is sending me a new set of front suspension arms and tie rods that have no powder coating on them to modify for The Wider track.
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Re: New recumbent QUAD build (OEM project)......

Post by Wheazel » Mar 24, 2017 5:21 am

What is the reasoning around such increased width? Not worried it will become unpractical?
Or maybe that is not a design parameter for this project?

I can see the logic if it is a one off show build.

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Re: New recumbent QUAD build (OEM project)......

Post by recumpence » Mar 24, 2017 6:40 am

Wheazel wrote:What is the reasoning around such increased width? Not worried it will become unpractical?
Or maybe that is not a design parameter for this project?

I can see the logic if it is a one off show build.
The current width with wheels is 30 inches. This is done to allow easy passage through a standard doorway. It was not meant for any other reason. When increasing ground clearance and suspension travel, stability could become an issue. In addition, longer travel pretty much necessitates increased suspension arm length. So, 42 inches is probably a good place to be.

I widened a KMX Typhoon to 40 inches years ago and that was a good width, but that was a low trike. This will be taller making increased width even more desired.

Besides, I think it will look more correctly proportioned.

Matt
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Re: New recumbent QUAD build (OEM project)......

Post by recumpence » Mar 31, 2017 10:23 pm

Progress report;

First- I am widening the front suspension (and rear quad axle) 6 inches beyond its current width. This will provide greater stability while still fitting in my hatchback. I will also increase the ground clearance 3 inches and increase the suspension travel.

Second- I am installing 4 inch wide (20 inch OD) wheels and fat tires. I ordered two Mongoose Pug kids bikes to use the rims and tires for the quad. The Wider wheels will add another 4 inches or so to the overall width. So, the total overall increase in width will be 10 inches.

Third- I ordered ten 6s-20ah Multistar Lipo packs (4.4kwh)

Interestingly, this chassis has room for 8kwh of lipo! Geeze, as it is the 4.4kwh is good for over 100 miles on a charge! Just imagine double that on a vehicle like this. Maybe an add on for another time. :mrgreen:

Matt
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Re: New recumbent QUAD build (OEM project)......

Post by Ohbse » Apr 01, 2017 8:43 pm

Looks awesome Matt - keen as always to see you progress.

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Re: New recumbent QUAD build (OEM project)......

Post by Triketech » Apr 01, 2017 9:54 pm

Sweet.

Thanks for the detailed snaps, looks incredible.

Solid rear axle sans dif? If so you may not need that from anti-roll to get some lift. Maybe dial in some more caster too, it helps lift the inside rear a bit.

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Re: New recumbent QUAD build (OEM project)......

Post by fechter » Apr 01, 2017 10:03 pm

Boy, some assembly required with that one. Worse than Ikea :wink:

It does look like it's going to be a blast. Right away I noticed those large compartments you could stuff with batteries. Nice and low too.

I think you should use at least two motors..
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Re: New recumbent QUAD build (OEM project)......

Post by recumpence » Apr 02, 2017 1:59 am

Hey Fechter,

Its been a while! Yes, lots of parts. :D As for dual motors, yes, I will be running it with a single 3220 (geared low for 30mph) and twin motors geared up taller for more speed. I will also be using Delta/Wye switching. That will allow relatively slow climbing and tight trail riding along with higher speed running on the flat ground.

I feel so privileged to be building such a wonderful project. I am blessed. This will be build #3 in 12 months.

Matt
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Re: New recumbent QUAD build (OEM project)......

Post by macribs » Apr 05, 2017 1:25 pm

Well this is a must see, *subscribed*.

Talk about quality parts. Man Outrider has really put their best into this trike. And when Mr S is doing the rear the outcome must be fantastic. What kind of power, single dual or triple 3220's?

Trike got such a lovely front end, with dual A arm to really keep the wheels down to the ground. I really hope you will mirror that in the rear end as well.
Stiff axle makes it of course easier to an ATV style chain and sprocket for the drive train. And it will also keep build more simple and easier to service and manufacture. But double wishbone possible with added linkarm would let you fly over wash board bumps. That would make it a true Baja Quad :) But then you would also need a differential :( adding complexity and weight and one more point of failure.

Or if you are doing a dual motor, one motor on each rear wheel will allow you to skip the differential. Take a look at the rear end of Stacy Kohut's Quad. He races DH for Redbull, with dead legs. Impressive guy, and impressive quad. Maybe a linkage rear end/dual swing arm kind of, like he got will work also for your build? And independent shocks and damping for each corner will add to stability, handling and overall fun factor.

They got a keen eye for details, the laser cut smiley face inside battery box was so funny.

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Re: New recumbent QUAD build (OEM project)......

Post by ScooterMan101 » Apr 06, 2017 1:47 am

Double A arm / wishbone suspension , Front and Rear ... Yes Version 2.0 of this quad will interest even more people. Or interest enough people to get this going.

Here is a link to Stacy Kohut's Quad. https://www.redbull.com/us-en/four-whee ... tacy-kohut



[="macribs"]

Trike got such a lovely front end, with dual A arm to really keep the wheels down to the ground. I really hope you will mirror that in the rear end as well.
Stiff axle makes it of course easier to an ATV style chain and sprocket for the drive train. And it will also keep build more simple and easier to service and manufacture. But double wishbone possible with added linkarm would let you fly over wash board bumps.

Or if you are doing a dual motor, one motor on each rear wheel will allow you to skip the differential. Take a look at the rear end of Stacy Kohut's Quad. He races DH for Redbull, with dead legs. Impressive guy, and impressive quad. Maybe a linkage rear end/dual swing arm kind of, like he got will work also for your build? And independent shocks and damping for each corner will add to stability, handling and overall fun factor.
[/quote]

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Re: New recumbent QUAD build (OEM project)......

Post by recumpence » Apr 06, 2017 7:02 am

Yes, independent suspension is superior. That is something I am looking at for version two. For now, the primary market for this quad is for people with upper body stability issues who need to be strapped to the seat. 4 wheels is far more stable than 3. So, a swingarm is more practical. Also, this design allows for a low rear rack to mount a wheelchair.

Trailing arm independent rear suspension with dual motors is coming later. :mrgreen:

Matt
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Re: New recumbent QUAD build (OEM project)......

Post by Triketech » Apr 06, 2017 11:58 am

Just some thoughts.....

IRS is cool but adds a lot of complexity and weight if the chain remains connected.

Live axle is simple and should prove very capable on most surfaces. It helps to unload the inside rear wheel to reduce/eliminate binding in turns similar to setting up a sprint kart chassis.

Let the front suspension roll, the rear axle should work well enough to reduce cornering roll, especially with the monocoque subframe. Add caster to the front uprights, 5-7° should work well.

Or you could get really creative and try this one out. Its a cam & follower actuated caster control that was promptly banned a few weeks after it first hit the track. That seemed to happen to us a lot over the years... :)

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