Running the latest 48v 500W TSDZ2 engine on 52volts ?

Waynemarlow · May 13, 2017

Hi, just bought a TSDZ2 48V 500W engine and very impressed with its simple fit and very tidy looking build quality. But I have a problem. I run 52v 14S2P batteries on the Bafung 750W I have and would like to also run the TSDZ2 on these batteries as all the chargers etc I have are based on this voltage. Has anyone here on the forum run their 48vTSDZ2 engines on 52 volts and has it been OK.

I like the Bafung a lot for myself as you can use a combo of throttle and boost settings which you can program to suit your requirements. I have now a pretty good setup, but the limitations are that its quite a powerful engine for tight steep single track, you end up in a very low speed gear to control the speed and without much feel of what the engine is actually doing, you then change into a higher speed gear as the bike can pull it with ease and end up riding faster than you really want to. I've had a couple of big offs because of this, sort of exciting like riding a 125 petrol Enduro bike in some ways, scary, fun, exhilarating until you hit something and then it hurts ( yes had a few too many of those over the years lol ) .

I've ridden the Bosch units and they give a really nice feel back through the pedals to actually what is happening, hence my look at the TSDZ2 engine but the Bosch are a bit anemic and speed limited here in the UK. reading up on the TSDZ2 engine the torque sensors are apparently pretty good, the 500W is probably in the ball park for what I do, you can change the speed limitation, but can I use the 52volts batteries without damaging the engine ?

amberwolf · May 13, 2017

some info

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/search.php?keywords=+TSDZ2+14s&terms=all&author=&sc=1&sf=all&sk=t&sd=d&sr=posts&st=0&ch=300&t=0&submit=Search

Waynemarlow · May 23, 2017

Sadly the 48volt 500W versions will not run on 52volt battery packs. Tried my new unit on my existing fully charged 14S battery, the display works fine but the motor itself will not operate. I put my variable bench supply on and it will operate up to about 54.6 volts which is the near enough top voltage on a fully charged 13S pack. It is really close and a little worried that a fully charged battery may just kick the motor into self protection mode.

Bit of a pain as all my packs are 14S units, anybody with any ideas how to get around this.

Regards.

Hangdog · May 23, 2017

Can you just charge your 14s pack to 54.6v every time ? Seems it would improve the life of your pack versus charging a 13s
Pack to 100%...just a thought

Waynemarlow · May 24, 2017

Interesting thought but would you not loose 25% of the charge, I'm more interested in not having to change batteries on the ride than worry about total number of charges on the battery ( lifetime ).

WoodlandHills · May 24, 2017

Hangdog said:
Can you just charge your 14s pack to 54.6v every time ? Seems it would improve the life of your pack versus charging a 13s
Pack to 100%...just a thought

Then you would never be able to balance that pack unless you had a 52v compatible bike on hand to run it down into 48v range once in a while.

amberwolf · May 24, 2017

Or plug a 110vac heater element, toaster oven, or similar into it.

Hangdog · May 24, 2017

Waynemarlow said:
, I'm more interested in not having to change batteries on the ride than worry about total number of charges on the battery ( lifetime ).

You could run another pack in parallel...if capacity is the only issue and you have more than 1 52v pack.

KarlTheCool · May 28, 2017

What about the TSDZ3? Biktrix sells them with a 52v battery. Haven't been able to find any info on the third version though, only discussion about the 2nd comes up in google.

Update: Just contacted their support. They say that it does work with 52v batteries. Might buy one to try it out.

Norton · May 30, 2017

Karl,
Thanks for this info!
Only why is this the only vendor making the 52V claim?
EDIT: This is about a NEW TSDZ3 appears to be a new mid-drive for ebike frames only. It is not a bolt on kit for 68-73mm BB bike frames.

Hopefully soon the TSDZ2 system will be made for 52V battery packs also.

Waynemarlow · May 30, 2017

Be a little careful of some battery packs, some of the 48 volt 13s packs are sold as 52v for some reason. Ask the sellor to ensure its a 14s pack. I think it was something to do with lipo packs.

KarlTheCool · May 31, 2017

Hype ???

vince82 · Jun 1, 2017

I haven't yet understood what the range expectation is from these things.. Having torque sensing, I would expect them to run almost as long as Bosch unit (in "eco" mode), but I found no reference :?

amberwolf · Jun 2, 2017

Range of anything like this depends on your battery capacity, terrain, riding style, whether you keep the bike in the right gear for the speed, how much you pedal, etc.

RTIII · Jun 3, 2017

vince82 said:
I haven't yet understood what the range expectation is from these things.. Having torque sensing, I would expect them to run almost as long as Bosch unit (in "eco" mode), but I found no reference :?

Vince82, amberwolf gave you correct information. And, there are some 380+ comments on the TSDZ2 here on this site, on this thread:

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=79788&p=1293498#p1293498

Among the comments are a great many first-hand reports of people giving their specific circumstances such as those circumstances amberwolf shared with you.

When reading, I kept notes, two of which seem to be of interest to you that I am pasting here for you - find the originals with a good search or three, or just read the whole thread and make your own notes:

------------------------
(36v, 350W) Should consume 7.25 wh/m on flat ground in eco mode, 9.6 wh/mile in touris mode. Roughly 5AH / 30 KM in eco mode, so should be about 120KM in echo mode with 20AH batteries, or about 74 miles!

--------------

Worthwile driver's report, from DrewSki:
On mine, it seems like assist level 1 and 2 are all but useless. I can pedal with the same effort and speed with the motor OFF as I can in these 2 levels. The only time I noticed any help in level 2 was going up hills. Level 3 and 4 are where the magic happens, you really know that you have assistance in these 2 levels. On flat ground I was cruising easily at 18mph in level 3 and 22 in level 4 using the same effort, you just have to shift into a higher gear.
Power usage and time over 13 miles was as follows:-
Level 2 for 13 miles (59:52) 65 watt hours
Level 3 for 13 miles (50:43) 110 watt hours
Level 4 for 13 miles (45:39) 156 watt hours
I got 60 miles out of a 15ah battery before it died on level 4 using 499wh
I got 64 miles at level 3 and used 474wh, so there was a few miles left in the battery.
I find the battery indicator stays showing full bars for most of the time and then rapidly drops. Mine showed 1 bar drop at 50 miles, but was dead by 60!

______________

Note that DrewSKi has the only report I noted that was so disappointed about levels 1 and 2. However, there are many reports of people needing to learn - and then getting told - that the system re-calibrates every time it's turned on so you have to always turn it on with ZERO pedal force. It might well be DrewSki habitually turns it on with one foot resting on a pedal, which would throw the system off "reliably" and result in his experience. This might also explain the long distances he rides because he's doing a lot more of the work - I can't say, but maybe he's still lurking here and can comment.

Norton · Jun 3, 2017

I'm glad I waited for just a little more info on the Tongsheng TSDZ2 48V 500 Watt before I go for it!

Now Amazon offers this kit with a 48 V - 17.5 Ah - 13s/5p - Panasonic 18650 cells (claimed) battery for $940 shipped.

I was considering buying a 48V - 13.5 Ah - 13s/4p - (with the 'GA' cells) battery from Luna for this mid-drive. You know what you are getting from Luna! And they offer the 'advanced' charger that allows 80% charging. That's $545, shipped.

The 500 W kit with the throttle and brake levers is $446, shipped.
With the Luna battery: $991 shipped.

Questions:
> Is is worth it $51 to have a known good, but less powerful battery pack?

> Should I wait for a good answer on using a 52V pack on the TSDZ2?

Too late for questions!!! I just ordered it with the 17.5Ah battery pack option with an added throttle. It will be arriving "June 21 - July 7" .]
I guess the Li-ion pack has to take the slow boat...
I'll be reporting on this system after I get it up and running.

RTIII · Jun 6, 2017

Waynemarlow said:
Sadly the 48volt 500W versions will not run on 52volt battery packs. Tried my new unit on my existing fully charged 14S battery, the display works fine but the motor itself will not operate. I put my variable bench supply on and it will operate up to about 54.6 volts which is the near enough top voltage on a fully charged 13S pack. It is really close and a little worried that a fully charged battery may just kick the motor into self protection mode.

Bit of a pain as all my packs are 14S units, anybody with any ideas how to get around this.

Regards.

Waynemarlow,

I've been contemplating making my own packs and did the math recently. Your post is valuable to me because you've helped me know what cell count I need for them! (I've got a 500W, 48V TSDZ2 on order.) So, here's the math:

The first number (after the cell count) is the true "nominal" voltage of the pack. The number following is the pack at full charge, new, according to Panasonic's specification sheet. The last number in each row is the "is OK but needs recharge" voltage (3.0v cells):

12 cells = 43.2, 49.2, 36
13 cells = 46.8, 53.3, 39
14 cells = 50.4, 57.4, 42
15 cells = 54.0, 61.5, 45
16 cells = 57.6, 65.5, 48

A 13S pack should work fine on the 500W 48V version of the TSDZ2 since peak charge of the pack should be 53.3v.

DO NOTE that cells could have up to 0.1v more charge immediately after charging, but it should dissipate reasonably quickly. This is caused by the capacitive capability of the cell combined with a non-optimal battery charger. Over time the over-charging by a not-great charger WILL take some life out of the pack - how much depends on how much over 4.1v the charger delivers as the cell reaches full charge. 4.2 or even a little more is OK when the cell is above 3.0 but deeply depleted, but NOT OK when the cell gets full.) ... That extra possible 0.1v will stack up the total voltage to 54.6, EXACTLY AT the limit you have discovered through experiment. I strongly suspect that that's exactly why it's the limit! ... The cells CANNOT go beyond that point - so says chemistry. BUT, it also will not stay at that point long.

To confirm what I'm saying, check out the data sheets. (Check out the discharge characteristics.) Here are FOUR for different versions of the cells our packs are made from:

https://www.imrbatteries.com/content/sanyo_ncr18650ga.pdf
https://na.industrial.panasonic.com/sites/default/pidsa/files/ncr18650.pdf
https://na.industrial.panasonic.com/sites/default/pidsa/files/ncr18650f.pdf
https://na.industrial.panasonic.com/sites/default/pidsa/files/ncr18650a.pdf

BTW, thanks for posting your data - it will help me a lot!

Waynemarlow · Jun 8, 2017

The 13S Li -ion packs work fine, the 14S Li - ion packs don't. The displays work fine on both voltages but not the motor.

I'm starting to think that the 52V ( 14S ) is a waste of time worrying about the small benefit. I was primarily worried about the lowish cadence reported on the 36V units, the 48v ones seem to be fine and I can just over cadence it if I really work hard at it, better to simply drop to a lower gear ratio and not waste the energy trying to over rev the cadence. One of those things you do once and then say it is ticked off, why bother.

Anyway the 48v batteries and chargers are more common and seem proportionally cheaper than the 52v. If you just want energy assisted cycling then 48v 500W is more than enough.

KarlTheCool · Jun 9, 2017

Waynemarlow said:
The 13S Li -ion packs work fine, the 14S Li - ion packs don't. The displays work fine on both voltages but not the motor.

I'm starting to think that the 52V ( 14S ) is a waste of time worrying about the small benefit. I was primarily worried about the lowish cadence reported on the 36V units, the 48v ones seem to be fine and I can just over cadence it if I really work hard at it, better to simply drop to a lower gear ratio and not waste the energy trying to over rev the cadence. One of those things you do once and then say it is ticked off, why bother.

Anyway the 48v batteries and chargers are more common and seem proportionally cheaper than the 52v. If you just want energy assisted cycling then 48v 500W is more than enough.

Yeah, that sounds like a smart choice. The main reason I was so interested in it was that my previous kit with a 52v 13.5ah on a 750w geared hub was that I found that with an 80% charge, I could make my furthest trip twice. That started me to look for a power efficient kit that I could hook up with a 7ah mini battery. There only seems to be 1 option for a mini battery and it comes in 52v which is why finding out the truth about this kit was so important. I'm probably going to commit to the biktrix kit since it ships from Canada saving me some brokerage fees. Won't be able to report back for a while though.

Norton · Jun 10, 2017

KarlTheCool".... a power efficient kit that I could hook up with a 7ah mini battery. There only seems to be 1 option for a mini battery and it comes in 52v ....[/quote said:
I"m interested in a 'mini pack' also. I'd like to use the TSDZ2 on my road/gravel bike sometimes.
I like the stealth look of having a mini pack in a small seat bag and be able to use my water bottle mount for a water bottle.
Maybe if we ask nicely Luna will start offering a 48V Mini!!
Where else can you get known quality battery packs?

Funny thing: I tried to canceled my order with an amazon seller in china. I was having Buyer's Remorse. It was 5 days and no progress was happening and I started reading about other people using way cheaper chinese sellers.
A half hour later I got an email from amazon saying the UPS shipping label was requested. Then later that day it showed that is was at the shipper.

So I sent the seller another message saying "OK, looks like you have shipped the mid-drive kit, and I knew the battery pack was going to take the slow boat.
I told the seller that I work in Tech and I would be testing the battery pack to see if it performs according to the specs and I hope the cells are the same as listed also. It was a 48V/17.5 Ahr rated pack.

That must have set off,,, something,,, because later I got the message through amazon that the order was canceled!!! Yay !!

So now I'm shopping again. I may get my feet wet with a 350W TSDZ2 and a 'Mini' pack on my gravel bike.
Does the 350W come in 36V and 48V.
Can anyone recommend a seller?

RTIII · Jun 10, 2017

Norton said:
That must have set off,,, something,,, because later I got the message through amazon that the order was canceled!!! Yay !!

So now I'm shopping again. I may get my feet wet with a 350W TSDZ2 and a 'Mini' pack on my gravel bike.
Does the 350W come in 36V and 48V.
Can anyone recommend a seller?

Congratulations!

...I can't YET say I'm happy with the vendor I ordered from because I haven't received my TSDZ2 yet, but a great sign is that they wouldn't take my money until they said they had the item in stock. And, better, others commenting here on Endless Sphere have reported they got their units from the same vendor. That vendor is here:

http://www.auto-ebike.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=25_1&products_id=1802

They also have it advertised with the other display / controller:

http://auto-ebike.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=25_1&products_id=1780

BY THE WAY, I ordered on Thursday, June 8, and it was $290 for either kit. I just happened to look and it now reads $310! Looks like I acted just in time!

I was also thinking of ordering this battery pack from them as well:

http://auto-ebike.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=1738

When I tried to order that battery pack they said they did not have it in stock and I had to wait 8 days. They offered other battery packs instead that they DO have, they said, in stock, but I want the range. During those 8 days I got this idea that at that price it cannot be genuine, and also that density of storage probably isn't possible with any available battery in that package size - that is, the cell count would have to be at least 39 cells, and that packaging doesn't look big enough for 39 cells! So I told them to skip it. After a LOT of investigation, I've decided I'm either going to build my own with batteries I get direct from LG _or_ I'm going to buy from Luna. If I make it myself I'll go with the 3.5Ah cells in either two "batteries" of 13S2P (7Ah) or one of 13S3P (10.5Ah), most likely. And, I'll use the Vruzend kit. However, the DIY path has time consuming challenges, which is why I might just buy from Luna and be done with it.

Let us know how it turns out!

Norton · Jun 11, 2017

RTIII,

Thanks for the links!
I think I read that only the big display has a port for the throttle.

I'm in the same boat with building your own vs. buying a complete pack.
And good job in figuring out that pack does not add up!
I suspect when I told the amazon seller I was going to technically measure the pack they are selling me, they said, "OK, we not sell you anything. You go now". :lol:

I may just go with a Luna to be safe. What else is out there where you know what you are getting?
I want a 48V Mini, but they don't offer that, so one of their shark packs is the only choice, unless you want to go large.

I didn't know LG made 18650 cells. I found this video and I show it to friends so they know what we are dealing with: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOshOXcSkDA :x AH's.....

I have the technology to build my own pack, minus the spot welder, but the numbers don't add up if you buy the BMS and cells from Luna. What else do you trust?
I saw a method of using a car battery and relay to make a spot welder.
I used to overhaul airliner emergency power supplies. At the time they used Type F Ni-Cad cells. I know how to spot weld packs. I cringe when I see people soldering cell straps directly.

RTIII · Jun 11, 2017

Norton said:
RTIII,

Thanks for the links!
I think I read that only the big display has a port for the throttle.

I'm in the same boat with building your own vs. buying a complete pack.
And good job in figuring out that pack does not add up!
I suspect when I told the amazon seller I was going to technically measure the pack they are selling me, they said, "OK, we not sell you anything. You go now". :lol:

I may just go with a Luna to be safe. What else is out there where you know what you are getting?
I want a 48V Mini, but they don't offer that, so one of their shark packs is the only choice, unless you want to go large.

I didn't know LG made 18650 cells. I found this video and I show it to friends so they know what we are dealing with: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOshOXcSkDA :x AH's.....

I have the technology to build my own pack, minus the spot welder, but the numbers don't add up if you buy the BMS and cells from Luna. What else do you trust?
I saw a method of using a car battery and relay to make a spot welder.
I used to overhaul airliner emergency power supplies. At the time they used Type F Ni-Cad cells. I know how to spot weld packs. I cringe when I see people soldering cell straps directly.

Thanks, Norton, ... we're here to help each other! (And we do a pretty good job of it overall!)

Last week I found a battery seller on e-bay of supposedly new LGs in my local area, so I asked him if I could go pick them up in person and was refused. I wanted to do it in person because I can test them on the spot! Otherwise, I'm going straight to LG, and if I can't, I'm going with Luna - which I might do anyway, depending on what LG says. Price per cell matters. If I have to buy a few thousand to get a good price, I'll probably skip making my own packs. But what's a good price is hard to pin down exactly. The Vruzend people sell the batteries and I presume they're also genuine since they came from this community themselves. They're selling the LG MJ1 and their price is $4.445 per cell + shipping,

This makes for a 13S4P price of $231.14 + their kit + a BMS system + shipping or...

$231.14 + $28 + $30 = $289.14 + shipping and you still need a battery charger and connectors - and a packaging for your home-made battery! Plus, of course, all the labor of doing it. So, you're at at least $300 and still have packaging and a charger to go, but you're at around a theoretical 14Ah. OR, add one more cell row (13S5P), batteries go to $288.93 - about 60 more- and you're up over $350 with about 17.5 Ah, or, you could just buy the Lunacycle "17.5" (they round up by 0.25 Ah when using the Panasonic GAs - it's really only 17.25 Ah -shrug- ) ... WITH 2A Charger, all the work done, for only $549.95

Here's the spec sheet for the LG MJ1 - the best cell I've found so far.
http://vruzend.com/SpecificationINR18650MJ1.pdf

tomjasz · Jun 11, 2017

Norton said:
RTIII,

Thanks for the links!
I think I read that only the big display has a port for the throttle.

I'm in the same boat with building your own vs. buying a complete pack.
And good job in figuring out that pack does not add up!
I suspect when I told the amazon seller I was going to technically measure the pack they are selling me, they said, "OK, we not sell you anything. You go now". :lol:

I may just go with a Luna to be safe. What else is out there where you know what you are getting?
I want a 48V Mini, but they don't offer that, so one of their shark packs is the only choice, unless you want to go large.

I didn't know LG made 18650 cells. I found this video and I show it to friends so they know what we are dealing with: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOshOXcSkDA :x AH's.....

I have the technology to build my own pack, minus the spot welder, but the numbers don't add up if you buy the BMS and cells from Luna. What else do you trust?
I saw a method of using a car battery and relay to make a spot welder.
I used to overhaul airliner emergency power supplies. At the time they used Type F Ni-Cad cells. I know how to spot weld packs. I cringe when I see people soldering cell straps directly.

what makes luna safe? Just a China battery according to the fellas on ES facebook. Check this out... https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=oNfTEHBz_bg
hows that for a class act. They do build their own packs? A mini may be a bad idea, you need more parallel cells to avoid a sagging pack. At least 4p. I have a mini and its a nice bacup,but not a primary pack.

Norton · Jun 12, 2017

RTIII said:
....Thanks, Norton, ... we're here to help each other! (And we do a pretty good job of it overall!).....

Thanks again RT, for the detailed analysis.
Only after what timjasz posted above^ ,,, I'm having Analysis Paralysis. :x
Who can you trust?

Say you get a brand new pack and run it with a kWh meter to see what they sent you. It falls way short. What do you do? Pay $$ to ship it back to china?

EM3ev and Grin were recommended to me. Grin is really expensive. EM3ev looks like what I need and details what they sell you...

Does anyone here have experience with either?

Running the latest 48v 500W TSDZ2 engine on 52volts ?

10 kW

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