How good is Cyclone 4kw coaxial suspension bike?

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Sac037   10 mW

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Re: How good is Cyclone 4kw coaxial suspension bike?

Post by Sac037 » Dec 30 2017 4:56pm

Photos of controller cooling ducts
2 Air scoops funnel the air into the controller cavity. Then exhaust through the back of the box through the silver grills.
Im thinking of fans inside, forcing air out of the box
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Skaiwerd   100 W

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Re: How good is Cyclone 4kw coaxial suspension bike?

Post by Skaiwerd » Dec 31 2017 9:50am

Thanks for your testing this for us. Does it come with a display to view the amps? I use the batt-man for my cyclone 3000w. There are some neat cpu coolers and fans available now. Do a search on AliExpress for cpu cooler. This seems like a similar setup as the ultra drive but with a lot more power. Where the motor is integrated into the bike frame. This makes the motor less noticeable and less cluttered and more compact in appearance. Are there internal planetary gears for reduction like in the 3000w?

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Re: How good is Cyclone 4kw coaxial suspension bike?

Post by Sac037 » Dec 31 2017 5:08pm

Hi,
It has the same gears internally as the 3000.
The front chainring is 22t up to 42t
I have ordered 3 fans. Yeah racing.
25mm to go directly into the controller ( with the controller inside the battery box, it is clear of water)
So the fan will line up with the fets bus bar and a filter at the other end. This little fan does 5.5cfm and only draws 5v x .28 amp
And 2x 30mm yeah racing fans on the battery box exit vents @ 11cfm.
See how it goes.

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Re: How good is Cyclone 4kw coaxial suspension bike?

Post by alswiseowl » Dec 31 2017 10:30pm

nice work..
please keep posting bout your bike experiences,
I'm only a couple days away from ordering my 4kw coiaxle can't wait..
cooling fans seem like the way to do as long as its weatherproof true..
sounds like a nice & fast ride 8)
videos of performance would b great
thanks mate

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Re: How good is Cyclone 4kw coaxial suspension bike?

Post by Skaiwerd » Jan 01 2018 4:42pm

Does it use the same controller as the regular cyclone 3000w? I know you can get the regular 40amp or an upgraded one at 60 amps for the cyclone 3000w. Getting the same watts at 50 volts seems appealing over 75 volts. Means 2 batts not three. Or 4 not 6 batterie also for 2x capacity. Sounds nice if you don’t need the volts for top speed, that uses a lot of power anyway. I run the multistar 16k lipos.

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Re: How good is Cyclone 4kw coaxial suspension bike?

Post by Sac037 » Jan 03 2018 4:21am

Hi,
The controller is stated as 60 amp. But i think it is the 40 amp with a bigger shunt. Looks identical inside and the same number of fets.
I ran a 3000 at 48v on my first bike. I upgraded to 72v asap. Higher volts means higher speed.
For a really high torque combo and low speed i found running a 72v battery and reducing the throttle output signal from 5v to 2.5v gave a slow bike with lots of torque.and the range tripled.
Low voltage batteries are false economy IMO. As the total watt hours drops off a lot.

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Re: How good is Cyclone 4kw coaxial suspension bike?

Post by Sac037 » Jan 03 2018 6:02am

One thing thats needed when buying this kit is the rear hub is 170mm. You will need a 170mm fatbike hub and they are not so cheap for something descent. And youll have to lace the wheel.

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Re: How good is Cyclone 4kw coaxial suspension bike?

Post by DingusMcGee » Jan 14 2018 9:21am

Chalo,

But I'd say it's from the best possible country of origin to to maybe be an OK e-bike at that price.
Chalo,

I may have been one of the first to order the Elite bike frame back in July 5, 2017 and I will have to agree with you on most of what you say. You do get a unique coaxial motor shaft and petal shaft on a steel frame in one simple purchase -- no machining or heat treating needed on an altered frame to accommodate the coax motor. My particular interest in this form of motor/drivetrain compactness was that in jumping piles of logs I would not have to worry about bashing the chainring.

Now that I have the bike almost built there are some glaringly obvious shortcomings.

1. As the rear shock ( the included Cyclone rear shock is somewhat inferior to a Fox rear shock) travel is 140mm I bought the bike without their forks knowing there are good deals on used Fox forks and I would get equal rear and front travel. I did manage to get a new 2017 Fox Talus 34 -- 150mm travel -- 27.5" tire -- factory ( it will accommodate a 3.00 tire width) for $530. It turns out the frame head tube is a little short to allow the fork base to swing under the down tube. The fork adjusting knobs hit the down tube. There are several solutions:

1. remove the adjusting knobs

2. smash a dent in the down tube

3. weld a ring extension to the head tube

4. add shims to move the bearing race further down from the head tube end.

5. do nothing and see what happens while riding as one does not turn the fork at a right angle to the rear while travieling.

2. This 150mm Fox fork will yield a wheelbase of 48". This long wheelbase will make for a bike less nimble than my FSR Stumpjumper at a 43" wheelbase.

3. The standard additional drivetrain parts are not in the ideal range for using this bike for hill climbing. I may use a single speed 70T chainring on the rear.

4. The movable joints of the rear suspension are not bushed and are 6mm bolts. This frame is not as strong as a Big Hit downhill frame.

5. The OEM position of the controller could almost not be in a worse position. The wires exit near the bottom of the motor shell and could get snagged on brush or logs. Also the controller would get more water splashed on it in this low mount.

That said, log pile jumping happens on flatter ground and not hill climbs. A long wheelbase makes for a more spongy frame and softer landings. Not much nimbleness is needed to do log jumping. Nor does one need a 70T rear cog.

I may have this bike up and running in a month. I have the SRAM ex1 Cassette with a 48T for the rear along with a good collection of Multistar bricks.

It is the coax motor .............

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Re: How good is Cyclone 4kw coaxial suspension bike?

Post by Sac037 » Jan 20 2018 6:17am

https://youtu.be/QgNdk7yTdfk

From 3 min on is best viewing.
The other bike is a 3000w mid drive.

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Re: How good is Cyclone 4kw coaxial suspension bike?

Post by DingusMcGee » Jan 24 2018 8:31am

The bike is up and running. It is quieter than the c3000 and seems lighter than my c3000 builds but the bike is kind of long and a little tall. There is plenty of snow on the ground and I rode the bike briefly.

I did have several adjustment problems:

1. Since the down tube has no curvature to it the Fox shock bumps the tube when steering is turned sideways. I suspect I will dent the bottom tube enough to accommodate these knobs. Is a dent worse than the holes already in the down tube?


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2. The left side crank when torqued properly caused tight pedal shaft turning. I ground down the flat face of the crank a little until no contact with the motor side cover.


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3. The right side crank when torqued properly caused tight pedal shaft turning. I measured the allowable space with a feeler gauge and subtracted that gauge reading from the adapter thickness and obtained a steel freewheel washer about 0.008" less thick. This washer resizing was done on a magnetic shim planner.


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I have installed a SRAM EX1 derailleur, an EX1 11-48T cassette and an 8 speed EX1 shifter with the EX1 1/2x1/8 chain.


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DingusMcGee   10 kW

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Adding a 16T motor pulley to the Coax motor

Post by DingusMcGee » Jan 24 2018 9:03am

With a 4kw motor how much pedaling does one actually do? There is a way to add a 16T motor cog to the fixed 22T cog.


IMG_6906.gif
Obviously, one needs a chain guard.
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Here is the chain guard
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The plastic guard was made from a 6" plastic jar.
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Note also I placed the controller behind the seat tube and enclosed the wires in a plastic bag. Salt water from the road short circuits the throttle to read full speed.

Top speed in 16T to 48T is about 20mph. Currently, the pedal shaft is not attached to the motor pulley. I may not spend the time figuring out this design. But I do like the 37.5% increase in torque.

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Re: How good is Cyclone 4kw coaxial suspension bike?

Post by Chalo » Jan 24 2018 10:42am

Keep in mind that everything on the receiving end of your motor was designed for human power and larger front chainrings. As chainring size diminishes, chain force increases. The bicycle industry has dabbled with rings smaller than 22t in the past, but has generally settled on that as a minimum.

Because I'm big and heavy, I usually use a bigger than necessary front ring to moderate the forces fed into my chain drive, even with my pedal only bikes.

Anyway, keep us posted-- I'm curious what's the weakest link in your system. Check your chain for elongation frequently, and keep replacement chains handy. When the chain gets knackered, it wrecks all the sprockets in turn.
This is to express my gratitude to Justin of Grin Technologies for his extraordinary measures to save this forum for the benefit of all.

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Re: How good is Cyclone 4kw coaxial suspension bike?

Post by DingusMcGee » Jan 26 2018 9:01am

Chalo,

The bicycle industry has dabbled with rings smaller than 22t in the past, but has generally settled on that as a minimum.
With this discussion being more akin to the ebike industry, let's discuss the standard motor pulley on the C3000 -- the OEM 14T is no good for a long life. On the other end of the spectrum, I have replaced these OEM motor pulleys with the White Industries 16T and 18T cogs/freewheels and they are still in use.

The 16T cog used for this additional coax motor pulley was an $8.00 Shimano cog. It was made of very hard steel as the drilling of it dulled the cobalt drill bits after six holes. I suspect this 16T Shimano cog is of better steel than the Cyclone 22T cog.

When riding rough cobbly hillsides, higher than standard torque keeps you from having to ride at breakneck speeds. There are advantages to having just one speed rear for these situations -- no low hanging derailleur to get damaged.

The high torque can be achieved by going small on the motor pulley or big on the cassette. If the 16T wears out too fast I have a 70T for the cassette.
IMG_6927.gif
The 70T is too big for use with a rear long cage derailleur.
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Last edited by DingusMcGee on Jan 26 2018 10:25am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: How good is Cyclone 4kw coaxial suspension bike?

Post by DingusMcGee » Jan 26 2018 9:17am

The long bolts on the OEM kickstand can damage a tire if you fail to tighten the quick release enough on this high torque machine.
IMG_6921.gif
Cut these protruding bolts off
IMG_6921.gif (120.91 KiB) Viewed 1991 times
I gave the elite some more throttle just before hitting dry pavement. This shock loading that occurred on the tire when hitting the pavement yanked the rear wheel out of the dropouts and the tire glided into the kickstand bolts causing a tear and sidewall blowout in the rear tire.

I did manage to fit a boot made from an old bike tire inside the new Maxxis tire. The sanded boot was glued to the tire with Barge cement and then the boot was sewn to the tire on a sewing machine with kevlar thread. Some tire talc was added to give some internal tube/tire slippage over this protrusion. At hillside climbing speeds this extra weight hopefully will not cause a serious wheel balance problem.
IMG_6922.gif
These stitches were covered with Loctite S30 polyurethane
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Re: How good is Cyclone 4kw coaxial suspension bike?

Post by Jesusfreak » Feb 02 2018 5:12am

I want to buy a phaserunner from

http://www.ebikes.ca/c-phaserunner.html
What are your opinions have somebody already done it?

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Re: How good is Cyclone 4kw coaxial suspension bike?

Post by amberwolf » Feb 02 2018 1:10pm

Jesusfreak wrote:
Feb 02 2018 5:12am
I want to buy a phaserunner from

http://www.ebikes.ca/c-phaserunner.html
What are your opinions have somebody already done it?

Lots of people have bought that from them, a quick search on the forums finds lots of posts:
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/searc ... mit=Search
and threads
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/searc ... mit=Search

However, this thread is about a completely different subject, so you might want to ask a moderator to put your off-topic question in it's own thread or in one of the Phaserunner threads.

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SRAM EX1 cassette replaced quickly

Post by DingusMcGee » Feb 04 2018 8:48pm

Two teeth broke on the SRAM EX1 while doing a yard test -- meaning pedaling and no motor load. Since I bought the group from Worldwide Cyclery I sent them this letter & photo:
IMG_6917.gif
The SRAM EX1 with two broken teeth
IMG_6917.gif (131.96 KiB) Viewed 1815 times
Hi Crew,

I was giving the newly installed and adjusted off ground SRAM EX1 1x8 speed Long Cage Derailleur with the new SRAM PC EX1 8 Speed Chain a riding test in my yard. The chain was on the 48T cog and I shifted up one clink (to the next smaller cog)and continued pedaling and heard a chain popping noise but continued pedaling as this sound is not totally uncommon.

After riding thru the gears a few times I returned home and noticed two broken teeth on the 48T Cog. At this time I noticed the wording on the inside of the 48T cog: "SRAM XG 899 11-48T 8SPD SRAM 10SPD CHAIN ONLY" The chain sold within the EX1 group on WWC site is not a 10spd chain but a standard 1/2x1/8 chain.

It seems I got either/both the wrong chain and a 48T cog with 2 weak teeth. Please find attached a picture of the SRAM 48T with 2 broken teeth.


As there is plenty of snow on the ground here I have not ridden the bike anymore but I do think the cassette 48T had a manufacturing defect or this EX1 group approved 1/2x1/8 standard chain non-specified chain used as opposed to what is specified on the cog caused a very premature failure. I would like a new cassette.
IMG_6917.gif
The two brooken teeth
IMG_6917.gif (131.96 KiB) Viewed 1809 times





Logan of WWC contacted SRAM and with one week I had a new cassette from SRAM.

The local bike mechanic tells me the EX1 chain is a 10 speed chain used on the 8 speed EX1 cassette.
Last edited by DingusMcGee on Feb 04 2018 9:27pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Elite bottom stays are inadequate for shock chain loadings

Post by DingusMcGee » Feb 04 2018 9:21pm

Despite the SRAM EX1 had 2 brooken teeth I did go riding briefly that day on the snow packed pavement, transitions and dry pavement with it still mounted and had no more problems with more teeth loss or shifting noises while under mild power. In a few posts back I mention the wheel/ tire hitting the kickstand bolts.
I gave the elite some more throttle just before hitting dry pavement. This shock loading that occurred on the tire when hitting the pavement yanked the rear wheel out of the dropouts and the tire glided into the kickstand bolts causing a tear and sidewall blowout in the rear tire.
After mounting the replacement SRAM EX1 cassette I noticed another problem that had to have occurred when the wheel was yanked from the dropouts while riding some pavement having a transition from snow covered to dry pavement.
IMG_6930.gif
Bent FRAME. Notice center line of tire is off too much.
IMG_6930.gif (205.84 KiB) Viewed 1812 times
After several measurements, I concluded the bottom stays got bent when the tire blowout occurred. I realigned the stays to give a centered tire line with respect to the center of the bottom stay. Doing this bending also made the rear axle parallel with the motor shaft. It was not parallel after the stays were bent from the pavement shock loading with the tire centerline off by 3/4".



IMG_6931.gif
After bending tire center line aligns with center of stays.
IMG_6931.gif (201.91 KiB) Viewed 1812 times
I am running 3 different Specialized bikes with C3000 setups and having a spinning tire hit dry pavement has happened more than infrequently without bending the rear stays on any of them. The rear stays on the Elite bike with the C4000 are inadequate for this type of loading. If you are running 27.5" + tires there is room to weld a stiffing fish plate in front of the tire and likely stiffen the stays for this kind of loading. Maybe?
IMG_6933.gif
Note there is room in front of the tire for fishplating.
IMG_6933.gif (126.58 KiB) Viewed 1812 times
That all said, the SARM EX1 cassette held up to this shock loading and the Elite bike frame did not. I have bent SunRace 11 - 42T cassettes during this type of loading.

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Re: How good is Cyclone 4kw coaxial suspension bike?

Post by Sac037 » Feb 05 2018 4:41am

Hi. I have my bike set up perfectly now.
At 65 amp peak and 72v nominal
With 22 chainring and 46t , 40t, 34t and so on rear cassette. It will climb 45degrees at high speed in first gear.
44/22 is 2:1 ratio thats 260Nm torque

You are running 390Nm of torque on bike parts.
Thats the same as a 6 cylinder v6 engine

Your combo will just keep breaking parts. Given torque from a bldc is highest at 0 rpm.
At 3:1 ratio it will also be slow with all the torque dumped in at a very low speed in a very short time period.
Are you using the soft start feature on your bluetooth controller. I found it works best on 3 to save stripping the nylon gearbox.
It also moves the torque further up the rev range, rather than at 0 rpm. Doing things like ripping the wheel out of the drop outs.

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Re: How good is Cyclone 4kw coaxial suspension bike?

Post by DingusMcGee » Feb 05 2018 7:08am

SAC037,

Are you using the soft start feature on your bluetooth controller.
To ask if I am using the soft start makes me think you missed the point of what happened. The condition was shock loading when the spinning wheel on snow hit the dry pavement and soft start would be of little help during this rotating motor inertia reduction.

The suspension pivot joint bolts of the bottom stays on the Elite bike are in a poor location compared to Specialized Bike Suspension to reduce such shock loading by converting the motor inertia reduction into rear spring compression. The Horst Suspension (offset pivots) will allow the stays to easily go into compression during this type of shock loading.

To have the wheel axle, bottom stay pivot arm bolts and crank axle colinear and the pivot bolts close to the BB axel gives little chain tension change when hitting bumps and actuating the rear suspension but this alignment is somewhat insensitive to shock loadings. The rear suspension geometry on the Elite bike is an elementary design and not much good for modern motorcycles. Specialized and other bikes using the Horst Suspension can take these shock loading. Likely some other suspensions are sensitive to motor shock loadings and are on full suspension bikes.

You can go thru all the linear torque calculations & torque talk all you like but these methods will not produce reasonable numbers for what happens during wheel shock loadings. On hardtail bikes, the cassette carrier breaks on this type of shock loading with the C-3000. On hardtails employing the Lightning Rods' Motor setup the belt is likely to break when shock loaded this way.


EliteBike -- poor rear suspension design for a motor of this size.

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Re: How good is Cyclone 4kw coaxial suspension bike?

Post by DingusMcGee » Jun 20 2018 7:13am

Now that I have had this bike and modifications working for some time I will give another report.

It is very quiet, much quieter than the Cyclone 3000 at its quietest.

I am running 24S Multicraft 12Ah on the 60 amp controller which is about 100 volts when fully charged -- fast when on throttle setting 10 of fast start in the programmable controller.

I see the Cyclone OEM rear suspension shock sells new for $11.00 on eBay. It is total stiff piece of junk. I did measure the rear shock location space for a Fox replacement. Probably the nominal length would be 7.25 inches but shock units of bigger or smaller lengths would work. Since I wanted the bike to sit lower I got a used Fox Float 6.5" eye to eye from eBay. Its only adjustment is air pressure but what a change in riding comfort over bumps this changeout made. And the small stroke shock allows my feet to sit almost flat on the ground -- a preferred off-road height. I considered the open spring type rear shock but this ebike will not see downhill bumps where the running a cooler shock than the air shocks is needed. 2 of my 3 edirtbikes have spring shocks with air damping. The other is air only and the Fox repaired item now leaks again.

Another Cyclone mistake was discovered: the rear disk brake tang that is welded to the upper left rear stay is not the correct height for a Shimano 202 adapter to fit of the correct height such that disk brake pads rub 100% of their area on the metal disc yet not rub the outside rim of the disc. There are 2 ways to fix this height discrepancy: either grind off the bottom of the 202 mm adapter or washer up the 180 mm adapter. For now I washered up the 180 mm adapter to where I got 100% rub with no touching of the disc outside by the brake frame.

My modified unique coaxial motor setup makes for a very pleasing pavement machine that can do some less serious trail riding okay. It ceases to amaze me how sloppy built Cyclone made the 1st prototypes of this frame/motor when such a design would seem to be in demand for quietness and performance. But I have put some time into this frame to get it working good without much regret -- the same was true for making a high performance edirtbike using the Cyclone 3000.

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Re: How good is Cyclone 4kw coaxial suspension bike?

Post by Tommm » Jul 04 2018 11:41am

DingusMcGee wrote:
Jun 20 2018 7:13am
Another Cyclone mistake was discovered: the rear disk brake tang that is welded to the upper left rear stay is not the correct height for a Shimano 202 adapter to fit of the correct height such that disk brake pads rub 100% of their area on the metal disc yet not rub the outside rim of the disc. There are 2 ways to fix this height discrepancy: either grind off the bottom of the 202 mm adapter or washer up the 180 mm adapter. For now I washered up the 180 mm adapter to where I got 100% rub with no touching of the disc outside by the brake frame.
I too washered sideways my 203mm rear mount to work with a 203mm brake, works perfect now. For finer adjustments you can adjust very little by sliding the brake in the adapter sideways, the design is like that by purpose.
Image

Me and sac got the DNM DV22AR 190mm($45). I like the coil ones, because they are maintenance free, fork is coil too. The DNM Burner is the next step up with the oil reservoir, but it eats into the battery space.

I really like the bike, it took me up to 56mph(90kph) on a 75% charge before letting off without trouble. I could probably break 62mph or 100kph if I wanted to. It is a beast on pavement and it does well on bumpy dirt roads, I can do up to 32mph(50kph) while remaining stable.
Not sure what speeds dirt bikes do there, but it is plenty for me.
There have been quite a few iterations to the bike from what I have gathered, for example my suspension parts use plastic inserts to interface with each other instead of just bolts, my paint is matte(too thin), etc..

If you are familiar with mid drive bikes, say you come from a bbsXX build, looking for the next step up, and don't mind working on your bike it is a good buy. Otherwise, if stealth(looking like a bike) isn't a concern just save up more and get the sur-ron x model(new revision with bugfixes). If you mount the controller behind the seatpost in a box, and get a backpack battery you can ride a 60mph capable stealth bike, there are no other bikes like this.

Before lexan battery case:
Image

I turned the wonky look of the long chainstays into something useful by putting two of these dudes together to form a controller case behind the seatpost, keeping the bottom of the bike clean.
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Jueshua ... 92664.html
Still has clearance at max suspension.

Also, got a temp sensor in, it works 4.5v to 15v so I just mated the power leads into a micro USB cable and plugged it into the phone. Phones with USB host capability can supply power. Poked the sensor through the windings being careful not to touch anything else or get grind down. Doing ~25mph/42kph average I get 54C(~130F) stable on a warmer day.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/DC-12V-LED-Dig ... 3133690671 (Green one too dark, don't buy.)

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Re: How good is Cyclone 4kw coaxial suspension bike?

Post by Sac037 » Jul 06 2018 8:28pm

https://youtu.be/c2c6yU0S0Rw

I am now 100% satisfied with my set up.
Rear cassette. 9 speed 11- 50t sunshine.
KMC x9e chain.
Shunt mod up to 100 amps. Runs nicely at 70amps no heating issues.
Temperature controlled fan inside controller set at 65 deg C.
The most used gears are 42t and 36t on the rear, and 22t - 32- 42 up front.
The 50t on the rear gets me up anything steep enough to try and flip me, without loading up the motor.

The only issue i am looking for a solution on is the length and bounce in the very long chain. ( 134 links) it does come off the front chain rings after a heavy landing at high speeds sometimes.

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Re: How good is Cyclone 4kw coaxial suspension bike?

Post by Hillhater » Jul 06 2018 10:46pm

Im trying to make sense of this Cyclone Coaxial bike options
On their site , most of the fully built Elite bikes have frames very different to those in this thread, and also..different to the bare frames shown in the kit photos.
The assembled bikes have curved downtubes and asymetric tubing (probably alloy ?) with details like thro' axles instead of drop outs . But they clearly state Cromo (steel) frame material in the details.?
Anyone know what is going on ?
Or am i just not reading this properly ?
Image
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Re: How good is Cyclone 4kw coaxial suspension bike?

Post by Chalo » Jul 07 2018 12:27am

Hillhater wrote:
Jul 06 2018 10:46pm
The assembled bikes have curved downtubes and asymetric tubing (probably alloy ?) with details like thro' axles instead of drop outs . But they clearly state Cromo (steel) frame material in the details.?
Anyone know what is going on ?
Or am i just not reading this properly ?
Dude. Chinese sellers making shit up as they go along. Is it that hard for you to figure out?
This is to express my gratitude to Justin of Grin Technologies for his extraordinary measures to save this forum for the benefit of all.

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